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Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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Only way to know for sure is to try it. But I think it will work well. Or at least well enough. The gears and bushings are zamac, not the toughest alloy around. ABS is pretty tough. 3d-printed parts of ABS aren't as tough as injection-molded ABS, but Mr. Pete222 was using 3d-printed gears. The ones with high infill did well in his tests. Bushings aren't going to be stressed as much as the teeth of a gear, or so I believe.?

Only one way to truly know, of course.

Bill in OKC?



Sent from my Sprint Phone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Jody <jp4lsu@...>
Date: 1/29/19 5:56 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

Bill,
Would the material hold up to the grease and gunk of the gear train?
I think it is definitely hard enough using the right material but how is the abrasion resistance and how will it handle the nasty gear train environment.
-Jody
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Bill,
Would the material hold up to the grease and gunk of the gear train?
I think it is definitely hard enough using the right material but how is the abrasion resistance and how will it handle the nasty gear train environment.
-Jody
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Ken,
thanks for the idea. I ran across these on the internets yesterday and had never heard of the term elevator bolts.? I think they could work if you can find one with a thick enough flange on it.
-Jody
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Haha!
I was thinking that yesterday when Robert brought to my attention that even if I had a bolt, I'm still missing the rest of the assembly to hold the gear.? So I was thinking I will make the sleeve, that should be easy enough, but then the bushing with the integral keys in them posed another problem.

You're right Charles, that part is easy enough to make and would've been good practice for me.
-Jody
Re: Concern with my Spindle

Brad
 

Robert,

Regarding the covers being seals, that is exactly what I thought. However, after reading a few comments here I started to question my thinking. Thanks for making me question myself less. Hahaha!!

As for removing the spindle, I tried exactly as you described over and over, with no success. No matter what I did, I just could not get the woodruff key to come up with pliers. Tapping it down to rock it out of the slot was the only thing that worked. And I needed to expose the whole key to do that. I read about that technique on this site somewhere, I’m pretty sure. Anyway, it’s running good now. No harm, no foul. ?

Thanks, ?

Brad

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 2:35 AM Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab=[email protected]> wrote:

Mike and Brad,

?

There are no seals on the spindle or spindle flange.? The four steel cups, one of which is on each side of each bearing on the spindle, have a average clearance of about 0.012” all around on the flange OD behind the chuck and between the cup ID and spindle or spacer OD at the other three locations.? This is from actual measurements on my particular 3996.? I don’t know what the tolerance on this fit is.? But this is the gap through which the oil from the oil cups on top of the headstock drips or runs.? The cups are more correctly classed as covers rather than seals.

?

On the issue of removing the Woodruff key from the spindle, if you drive the key into the inner dust cover and dent the cover, you drove the spindle out too far before removing the key.? The Atlas Technical manual (readily available to all members) clearly says to remove the key with a pair of pliers.? If you loosen the set screws in the collar to the left of the small spindle gear, the two gears and the pulley will move slightly to the left.? The may ?still be slightly underneath the bull gear.? If sp, when you remove the key, you pull up on the end nearest the tailstock and it comes out at an angle.? Same when you reinstall it.? You stick the left end of the key into the keyway in the bull gear and into the key seat in the spindle and then tap the right end down with a pin punch.? Theoretically there should be just enough room to get the key into and out of the keyway with the key straight but in practice it may not quite work out that way.? Unfortunately, the Technical Bulletin does not warn you about this.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mike allen
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 20:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

?

my question would be , if the seals are good on both sides of
the bearing ,how does the oil get inside of the bearing ?

??? ??? animal

On 1/28/2019 5:38 PM, Brad wrote:

Hi everyone. I have a Craftsman Commercial 12” It has the Timken

bearings - I know because I had it apart two weeks ago to fix the bull
gear engagement pin. Another story for another day.

Anyway, this thread has interested me for one reason, the oil cups. I
always operated under the assumption that the purpose for the felt in
the cups was to provide a constant drip to the bearings, as well as
filter out any swarf from getting into the bearings through the oil
supply. I never would have thought that the dust covers were meant to
act as “seals” to retain so much oil around the bearings that it built
up to the level of the felt cup.

From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems that is the belief of
some. I have never had any concern with my bearings getting oil, as I
constantly fill the felts and have no reason to believe they’re not
dripping into the bearings.

My concern is this - when removing the spindle, it has to be driven
toward the tailstock and the bull gear pulled rearward to dismount it
from the woodruff key on the spindle. In order to get enough space,
the woodruff key has to basically be driven into the inside front dust
cover, denting it and causing the edge to become somewhat misshapen.

The spindle is now back together, and everything is running tip top.
The felts are doing their job, just as they always have. But there is
absolutely no way the inner dust cover is going to be oil tight,
especially after getting beaten up by the woodruff key. Should I
really be expecting those dust covers to be holding oil up to the
level of the cups? From what I’ve read, it sounds like some members’
lathes do? Or are the felts really just there to dispense the oil in a
measured fashion?

Thanks,

Brad
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Dave,
That's the one.? Robert brought it to my attention that I will need the sleeve and bushing, something in my haste to find a solution didn't even think about.? Rooting around in the parts box that came with the lathe, no sleeve or bushing , nut and thick washer.

I actually found 2 on ebay that have the whole assembly (bolt, bushing, sleeve, nut, washer).? I think I may buy one of these guys.? Thanks a lot for looking into that and offering.? I would do it but the fact that i don't have the other components to hold the gear, Id still be dead in the water.
If it ain't one thing it is something else.
-Jody
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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That is something that should be 3d-printable. If somebody who has one accessible would take a photo of the end and a couple side views, I'll see if I can make a proper CAD drawing and STL file of it. I should have at least one on my TH42 I can take measurements from, and I'll print it.?

Bill in OKC?

Bill in?



Sent from my Sprint Phone.

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-------- Original message --------
From: "Robert Downs via Groups.Io" <wa5cab@...>
Date: 1/29/19 1:52 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

Yeah, but the kicker is trying to make the bushing with integral external double keys.? Without that, you’re still dead in the water.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 21:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

?

If only he had a tool capable of turning rods of steel into custom hardware:’). ?Simple turning threading and a little file work. ?

?

Charles

?


On Jan 28, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:

Jody,

?

Besides a third special bolt (9-69A), the Atlas 10F and early 12” all came with a third 9-73A Sleeve, 9-70A Bushing and 9-93A Washer.? When you call Clausing to order those, you may as well order the bolt as well.?

?

?

Robert Downs
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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Only one key would probably work OK but with no keys, Murphy’s Law pretty much guarantees that either the gear would rotate and not the bushing (and put wear on the bore of the gear), or that would happen for a while and then the gear would suddenly stick to the bushing and be difficult to remove. ?And replacing the gear would cost more than replacing the other parts.

?

?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 02:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

?

Curious, if it is just a gear in the train is the double key necessary? Why wouldn't a simple snug spacer/bushing work?

Another candidate for a commonly available bolt with enough meat on it to modify into what you need (machine it down) you might look at "elevator" bolts.


Ken H in AZ

Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Curious, if it is just a gear in the train is the double key necessary? Why wouldn't a simple snug spacer/bushing work?

Another candidate for a commonly available bolt with enough meat on it to modify into what you need (machine it down) you might look at "elevator" bolts.


Ken H in AZ
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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Yeah, but the kicker is trying to make the bushing with integral external double keys.? Without that, you’re still dead in the water.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 21:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

?

If only he had a tool capable of turning rods of steel into custom hardware:’). ?Simple turning threading and a little file work. ?

?

Charles

?


On Jan 28, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:

Jody,

?

Besides a third special bolt (9-69A), the Atlas 10F and early 12” all came with a third 9-73A Sleeve, 9-70A Bushing and 9-93A Washer.? When you call Clausing to order those, you may as well order the bolt as well.?

?

?

Robert Downs
Re: Concern with my Spindle

 

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Mike,

?

And after all of that, I didn’t actually answer your question.? The holes in the top of the headstock that the oil cups fit into are intended to be between the right bearing cup and the right cover for the right hand oil cup and the reverse for the left hand one.? So the oil drips down onto the cone.? Just barely in my case.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mike allen
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 20:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

?

my question would be , if the seals are good on both sides of
the bearing ,how does the oil get inside of the bearing ?

??? ??? animal


_,_._,_
Re: Concern with my Spindle

 

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Mike and Brad,

?

There are no seals on the spindle or spindle flange.? The four steel cups, one of which is on each side of each bearing on the spindle, have a average clearance of about 0.012” all around on the flange OD behind the chuck and between the cup ID and spindle or spacer OD at the other three locations.? This is from actual measurements on my particular 3996.? I don’t know what the tolerance on this fit is.? But this is the gap through which the oil from the oil cups on top of the headstock drips or runs.? The cups are more correctly classed as covers rather than seals.

?

On the issue of removing the Woodruff key from the spindle, if you drive the key into the inner dust cover and dent the cover, you drove the spindle out too far before removing the key.? The Atlas Technical manual (readily available to all members) clearly says to remove the key with a pair of pliers.? If you loosen the set screws in the collar to the left of the small spindle gear, the two gears and the pulley will move slightly to the left.? The may ?still be slightly underneath the bull gear.? If sp, when you remove the key, you pull up on the end nearest the tailstock and it comes out at an angle.? Same when you reinstall it.? You stick the left end of the key into the keyway in the bull gear and into the key seat in the spindle and then tap the right end down with a pin punch.? Theoretically there should be just enough room to get the key into and out of the keyway with the key straight but in practice it may not quite work out that way.? Unfortunately, the Technical Bulletin does not warn you about this.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mike allen
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 20:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

?

my question would be , if the seals are good on both sides of
the bearing ,how does the oil get inside of the bearing ?

??? ??? animal

On 1/28/2019 5:38 PM, Brad wrote:

Hi everyone. I have a Craftsman Commercial 12” It has the Timken
bearings - I know because I had it apart two weeks ago to fix the bull
gear engagement pin. Another story for another day.

Anyway, this thread has interested me for one reason, the oil cups. I
always operated under the assumption that the purpose for the felt in
the cups was to provide a constant drip to the bearings, as well as
filter out any swarf from getting into the bearings through the oil
supply. I never would have thought that the dust covers were meant to
act as “seals” to retain so much oil around the bearings that it built
up to the level of the felt cup.

From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems that is the belief of
some. I have never had any concern with my bearings getting oil, as I
constantly fill the felts and have no reason to believe they’re not
dripping into the bearings.

My concern is this - when removing the spindle, it has to be driven
toward the tailstock and the bull gear pulled rearward to dismount it
from the woodruff key on the spindle. In order to get enough space,
the woodruff key has to basically be driven into the inside front dust
cover, denting it and causing the edge to become somewhat misshapen.

The spindle is now back together, and everything is running tip top.
The felts are doing their job, just as they always have. But there is
absolutely no way the inner dust cover is going to be oil tight,
especially after getting beaten up by the woodruff key. Should I
really be expecting those dust covers to be holding oil up to the
level of the cups? From what I’ve read, it sounds like some members’
lathes do? Or are the felts really just there to dispense the oil in a
measured fashion?

Thanks,

Brad
Re: Concern with my Spindle

 

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The dust covers on my 10F have little slots in them to clear the key . . . My understanding has been that they are there to protect the bearings and are not oil seals . Carvel


Sent from Samsung Mobile


-------- Original message --------
From: mike allen
Date:2019/01/29 4:05 AM (GMT+02:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

my question would be , if the seals are good on both sides of
the bearing ,how does the oil get inside of the bearing ?

??? ??? animal

On 1/28/2019 5:38 PM, Brad wrote:
Hi everyone. I have a Craftsman Commercial 12”. It has the Timken
bearings - I know because I had it apart two weeks ago to fix the bull
gear engagement pin. Another story for another day.

Anyway, this thread has interested me for one reason, the oil cups. I
always operated under the assumption that the purpose for the felt in
the cups was to provide a constant drip to the bearings, as well as
filter out any swarf from getting into the bearings through the oil
supply. I never would have thought that the dust covers were meant to
act as “seals” to retain so much oil around the bearings that it built
up to the level of the felt cup.

From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems that is the belief of
some. I have never had any concern with my bearings getting oil, as I
constantly fill the felts and have no reason to believe they’re not
dripping into the bearings.

My concern is this - when removing the spindle, it has to be driven
toward the tailstock and the bull gear pulled rearward to dismount it
from the woodruff key on the spindle. In order to get enough space,
the woodruff key has to basically be driven into the inside front dust
cover, denting it and causing the edge to become somewhat misshapen.

The spindle is now back together, and everything is running tip top.
The felts are doing their job, just as they always have. But there is
absolutely no way the inner dust cover is going to be oil tight,
especially after getting beaten up by the woodruff key. Should I
really be expecting those dust covers to be holding oil up to the
level of the cups? From what I’ve read, it sounds like some members’
lathes do? Or are the felts really just there to dispense the oil in a
measured fashion?

Thanks,

Brad
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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If only he had a tool capable of turning rods of steel into custom hardware:’). ?Simple turning threading and a little file work. ?

Charles


On Jan 28, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:

Jody,

?

Besides a third special bolt (9-69A), the Atlas 10F and early 12” all came with a third 9-73A Sleeve, 9-70A Bushing and 9-93A Washer.? When you call Clausing to order those, you may as well order the bolt as well.?


?

Robert Downs
Re: Concern with my Spindle

 

my question would be , if the seals are good on both sides of
the bearing ,how does the oil get inside of the bearing ?

??? ??? animal


On 1/28/2019 5:38 PM, Brad wrote:
Hi everyone. I have a Craftsman Commercial 12”. It has the Timken
bearings - I know because I had it apart two weeks ago to fix the bull
gear engagement pin. Another story for another day.

Anyway, this thread has interested me for one reason, the oil cups. I
always operated under the assumption that the purpose for the felt in
the cups was to provide a constant drip to the bearings, as well as
filter out any swarf from getting into the bearings through the oil
supply. I never would have thought that the dust covers were meant to
act as “seals” to retain so much oil around the bearings that it built
up to the level of the felt cup.

From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems that is the belief of
some. I have never had any concern with my bearings getting oil, as I
constantly fill the felts and have no reason to believe they’re not
dripping into the bearings.

My concern is this - when removing the spindle, it has to be driven
toward the tailstock and the bull gear pulled rearward to dismount it
from the woodruff key on the spindle. In order to get enough space,
the woodruff key has to basically be driven into the inside front dust
cover, denting it and causing the edge to become somewhat misshapen.

The spindle is now back together, and everything is running tip top.
The felts are doing their job, just as they always have. But there is
absolutely no way the inner dust cover is going to be oil tight,
especially after getting beaten up by the woodruff key. Should I
really be expecting those dust covers to be holding oil up to the
level of the cups? From what I’ve read, it sounds like some members’
lathes do? Or are the felts really just there to dispense the oil in a
measured fashion?

Thanks,

Brad
Re: Concern with my Spindle

Brad
 

Hi everyone. I have a Craftsman Commercial 12”.? It has the Timken bearings - I know because I had it apart two weeks ago to fix the bull gear engagement pin. Another story for another day.?

Anyway, this thread has interested me for one reason, the oil cups. I always operated under the assumption that the purpose for the felt in the cups was to provide a constant drip to the bearings, as well as filter out any swarf from getting into the bearings through the oil supply. I never would have thought that the dust covers were meant to act as “seals” to retain so much oil around the bearings that it built up to the level of the felt cup.?

From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems that is the belief of some. I have never had any concern with my bearings getting oil, as I constantly fill the felts and have no reason to believe they’re not dripping into the bearings.?

My concern is this - when removing the spindle, it has to be driven toward the tailstock and the bull gear pulled rearward to dismount it from the woodruff key on the spindle. In order to get enough space, the woodruff key has to basically be driven into the inside front dust cover, denting it and causing the edge to become somewhat misshapen.?

The spindle is now back together, and everything is running tip top. The felts are doing their job, just as they always have. But there is absolutely no way the inner dust cover is going to be oil tight, especially after getting beaten up by the woodruff key. Should I really be expecting those dust covers to be holding oil up to the level of the cups? From what I’ve read, it sounds like some members’ lathes do? Or are the felts really just there to dispense the oil in a measured fashion?

Thanks,

Brad

On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 5:29 PM Jody <jp4lsu@...> wrote:
I meant to try that yesterday, but forgot.? I'll try and see what happens.
Thanks,
Jody


-------- Original message --------
From: "Robert Downs via Groups.Io" <wa5cab=[email protected]>
Date: 1/28/19 3:43 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

Swap the two felts and see whether or not the rear cup empties faster.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jody
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 12:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Concern with my Spindle

?

Robert,
I think it is all coming out of the front dust cover.? Which makes sense because the riding bearing surface is angled towards the chuck so you would expect it to follow the bearing and bearing surface.
I'm wondering if I had a burr on the dust cover when I reinstalled it and it has a little gap for the oil to flow through.

it's weird that without the felt, the oil runs out immediately but with the felt it runs out 3x slower than the rear oil cup with felt.?
-Jody

Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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Jody,? Does it resemble this?
I'd probably just make one but I? could for sure modify a regular carriage bolt.
I took it off for entertainment and looked up specs. This is from my 3991 with qcgb but I? could make a 3/8-16×2 work. Turn the head down from .84 to .625, the thickness might not matter.
Dave?



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

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-------- Original message --------
From: Jody <jp4lsu@...>
Date: 1/28/19 16:32 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

The original stud is very similar to a carriage bolt, with exception that gear bolt has a thicker head and is flat, where a carriage bolt is domed.
I'll stop by HD and give it a whirl.
Thanks,
Jody


-------- Original message --------
From: mike allen <animal@...>
Date: 1/28/19 3:53 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

??? ??? like I said Jody , I dont have a Craftsman . lets go this way? , what size id the bolt . the slot in the banjo & the recess for the bolt ? since I dont have 1 to look at maybe the measurements will help . I could have a idea , but I ??? ??? ??? could also just be pounding sand .

??? ??? animal



On 1/28/2019 12:07 PM, Jody wrote:
Animal,?
It is similar to a carriage bolt.? The square portion at the head fits into the banjo slot and keeps the bolt from rotating.? The flange of the bold keeps it from sliding thru the slot of the banjo.?

In your plan what keeps the bolt from sliding out of the banjo.
-Jody


-------- Original message --------
From: mike allen <animal@...>
Date: 1/28/19 1:01 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

??? ??? I'm not sure how the banjo is set up on a Craftsman but can't ya use a standard bolt & just grind down the head til it fits in the depression/slot on the banjo?

??? ??? animal

On 1/28/2019 10:11 AM, Jody wrote:
My feed rate gearing is set at 0.0035" and I comfirmed that last night.? I was turning some stainless with a carbide index cutter and the finish was awful.? As a novice I'm still learning my metals and cutting rates, so it is an experiment half them time.? But I'm learning to pay attention to the cutting rate tables.? Anywhoo.

I wanted to reduce the feed to the slowest rate (Is it 0.00187?) and pulled out the MOLO and looked at the gear chart.? This would've been the first time I've changed gears since getting the rebuild done last year or so.? The figure of the gear arrangement showed 3 gears on the banjo.? Well I only have 2 bolts to hold the gear on.

I put the gears back in the position they were in when I first got the lathe from my dad, so never noticed I'm missing a gear bolt till last night.

The gear bolts have a thicker head on them versus a carriage bolt, will I be OK using a carriage bolt??
I don't see why not since there isn't tension on the fastener.

Just want to see if you guys thought that was OK.? I don't even know if you can find a bolt like the one on the lathe.
Thanks,
Jody
Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

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OK.? I would think that if you find them at all, they will be assembled less a gear and the banjo.? Or first thing I would do is to look at the change gears.? They could have been assembled in one or two of those as well.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jody
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 17:40
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Missing Feed Gear Bolt

?

Good point Robert,
Thanks for the part numbers, I think I will need the sleeves as well.? I didn't see those laying around in the spare parts box either.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
-Jody

Re: Missing Feed Gear Bolt

 

Good point Robert,
Thanks for the part numbers, I think I will need the sleeves as well.? I didn't see those laying around in the spare parts box either.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
-Jody
Re: Welcome to [email protected]

 

Ya may want to be pretty careful how ya proceed with the
cleaning up on the Levin . their a pretty sweet lil machine . I don't
know if it would be a candidate for the " electrolytic rust removal
process " I have never tried

??? ??? it but have seen& heard pretty good things about it .

??? ??? animal


On 1/28/2019 3:15 PM, Don Newbold wrote:
Early 60's sounds like a reasonable date. I believe all three lathes
came from the same individual - a deceased relative. I think he started
out with the Sears, then passed it on to his brother-in-law when he got
the Atlas. The Sears may never have been used as that guy ran a
woodworking shop. He died and it went to his son - my wife's cousin. I
got it from him in a trade as he wouldn't take an old dilapidated 5x8
trailer for free. The relative then bought the Levin from NASA and set
the Atlas aside. Some years later the Atlas went to my wife (before we
met) and the Levin was destined for, but never picked up by, my
sister-in-law. My wife saw my interest in the Levin so bought for me a
birthday gift. So, now I've got three lathes, all disassembled for
moving, though I did use the Atlas for an hour or so before it was
moved. The Sears spindle moves, but I have no motor and no space to set
it up separately. The Levin spindle does move, though all of the parts
are covered in rust. I'll make room for it and get it working some day.

Don
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