|
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth date for him so he was possibly born before civil registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's occupation is "Officer".
Their second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in Brighton.
A third daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son, named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial Clerk.
Around 1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.? There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
?
UK newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers and serving in India.
His last UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he did time for theft.
However there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of his military career.
On Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July 1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
Lynley Chapman
Whitby, New Zealand
|
Apologies listers it is York, not Yorl, Yorkshire that F H GIFFORD was in court for theft and did time in 1888. Lynley
|
Lynley
The marriage in 1879 is on FMP
He's of full age, bachelor, Private 9th Lancers, father Henry
Woodhead GIFFORD, architect.? It's rather a coincidence if there
are two Frank Herbert GIFFORDs in 9th Lancers.
If you have access to FMP it might be worth checking the two
signatures for Frank.
Lin
On 03/11/2024 21:17, Lynley Chapman via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.?
He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on
August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth
date for him so he was possibly born before civil
registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a
Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William
GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah
and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She
was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's
occupation is "Officer".
Their
second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in
Brighton.
A third
daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with
Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son,
named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in
Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial
Clerk.
Around
1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.?
There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to
Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June
quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah
remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
?
UK
newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert
GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers
and serving in India.
His last
UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he
did time for theft.
However
there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in
August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of
his military career.
On
Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July
1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise
Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this
may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot
find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have
not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of
Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did
not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help
would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
Lynley
Chapman
Whitby,
New Zealand
|
Lynley
Found a record on FMP for his discharge from 9th Lancers on 6
March 1880 - reason 'igny' which I am guessing is ignominy. He'd
been in 4yrs 4 days. conduct 'VB' (Very Bad?)
On 03/11/2024 21:36, Lynley Chapman via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Apologies listers it is York, not Yorl, Yorkshire that F H
GIFFORD was in court for theft and did time in 1888.
Lynley
|
Hello Lin,
Well that is interesting.....My suspicion is that Frank Herbert GIFFORD played games with names and occupations.? It is likely that both he and Hannah were bigamists if the Canterbury marriage is him.? She was dirt poor so no money for a divorce.
I don't have subscriptions to the big websites due to the cost.? However Findmypast has all records open for Remembrance Day so I will have a snoop.
I did not know how to post the url to the Desertion notice off Ancestry and a fellow researcher, now deceased, had passed it on to me.? The Leeds place of birth saw me sign on to the Yorkshire group in the hope that I might track down the elusive Frank. Thanks for your help Lynley
Lynley
The marriage in 1879 is on FMP
He's of full age, bachelor, Private 9th Lancers, father Henry
Woodhead GIFFORD, architect.? It's rather a coincidence if there
are two Frank Herbert GIFFORDs in 9th Lancers.
If you have access to FMP it might be worth checking the two
signatures for Frank.
Lin
On 03/11/2024 21:17, Lynley Chapman via
wrote:
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.?
He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on
August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth
date for him so he was possibly born before civil
registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a
Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William
GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah
and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She
was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's
occupation is "Officer".
Their
second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in
Brighton.
A third
daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with
Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son,
named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in
Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial
Clerk.
Around
1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.?
There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to
Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June
quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah
remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
?
UK
newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert
GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers
and serving in India.
His last
UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he
did time for theft.
However
there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in
August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of
his military career.
On
Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July
1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise
Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this
may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot
find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have
not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of
Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did
not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help
would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
Lynley
Chapman
Whitby,
New Zealand
|
Thank you very much.? I had wondered how long he was in the 9th Lancers and when he was discharged.? The number of years seems askew with Frank stating he was in the 9th Lancers at the time of his marriage in 1863. ? His son Frank Charles died in 1880 Dec quarter Vol 2b p139 and I had wondered if that was the final straw for Frank.
Hannah and their children lived with her parents from the time of her marriage to Frank until her parents went into the Workhouse in Brighton in their late 70's, circa 1878 and her name is mentioned as being a problem to the Mendacity Society in Brighton from 1878.? I suspect Frank was a very poor provider.? There is also a 7 year gap between Frank and Hannah's first and second baby.? I had thought he might have been in India with the 9th Lancers during that period but....???
Lynley
Lynley
Found a record on FMP for his discharge from 9th Lancers on 6
March 1880 - reason 'igny' which I am guessing is ignominy. He'd
been in 4yrs 4 days. conduct 'VB' (Very Bad?)
On 03/11/2024 21:36, Lynley Chapman via
wrote:
Apologies listers it is York, not Yorl, Yorkshire that F H
GIFFORD was in court for theft and did time in 1888.
Lynley
|
Hi Linley
Family Search has a Frank Herbert GIFFORD son of George William GIFFORD born 1837 in Willingham, Cambridgeshire and died 1880 in Brighton.?
However...?
A Frank?Herbert GIFFORD, 40,? was convicted in 1885 of theft in Woolwich, stealing tools from a printer and pawning them- he'd printed up address cards for himself - ex 9th Lancers, foreman at the Woolwich dockyards (which I think were the British naval dockyards.) He claimed sunstroke in India had led him to drink!?
Then in 1886, living in Long Acre, Covent Garden, London - obtaining money by deception from the Charity Organisation. He said he was from Leeds, Yorkshire, claimed to be Sergeant Harry COX with a wife and five children, unemployed, starving... so they found him work and gave him money, then his wife died and he spent all his money on funeral expenses, then he turned up with a broken arm...? He'd got hold of Harry COX's papers by writing to the War Office as J GIFFORD saying he wanted to employ him but enlisted in the name of Frank Herbert GIFFORD but was constantly on the default list (presume that means he was constantly in trouble?)?
Then in 1886 Frank Herbert GIFFORD of no fixed abode was convicted of stealing a parcel from a tram in York - he was 49 so that would give a birthdate of around 1837/39 (no mention of military career then)?
Makes me wonder if he really was Frank Herbert??
Best of luck - that looks like a very complicated search!
Jane?
Chasing W(H)ELDRAKE/DRICK, WELDRAKE/DRICK - any variation, anywhere, anytime?
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 at 21:28, Lynley Chapman via <lynleybrian54= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth date for him so he was possibly born before civil registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's occupation is "Officer".
Their second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in Brighton.
A third daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son, named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial Clerk.
Around 1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.? There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
?
UK newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers and serving in India.
His last UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he did time for theft.
However there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of his military career.
On Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July 1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
Lynley Chapman
Whitby, New Zealand
|
Hi Jane,
Thank you for all your work here on Frank Herbert GIFFORD....I am doubtful of the Cambridgeshire birth as I think it might marry up with a Herbert H F GIFFORD born there in 1837.? I have it tucked away as an option however.
Yes Frank got into trouble with the law and/or charity organisations.? I did smile over him using the stolen printing gear to make his own business card, including the 9th Lancers!
The repetition of the 9th Lancers is something of a linking clue. As you say Jane he is a complicated character. Lynley
On Mon, 4 Nov 2024 at 12:20, JA Woodall via <jane.woodall2016= [email protected]> wrote: Hi Linley
Family Search has a Frank Herbert GIFFORD son of George William GIFFORD born 1837 in Willingham, Cambridgeshire and died 1880 in Brighton.?
However...?
A Frank?Herbert GIFFORD, 40,? was convicted in 1885 of theft in Woolwich, stealing tools from a printer and pawning them- he'd printed up address cards for himself - ex 9th Lancers, foreman at the Woolwich dockyards (which I think were the British naval dockyards.) He claimed sunstroke in India had led him to drink!?
Then in 1886, living in Long Acre, Covent Garden, London - obtaining money by deception from the Charity Organisation. He said he was from Leeds, Yorkshire, claimed to be Sergeant Harry COX with a wife and five children, unemployed, starving... so they found him work and gave him money, then his wife died and he spent all his money on funeral expenses, then he turned up with a broken arm...? He'd got hold of Harry COX's papers by writing to the War Office as J GIFFORD saying he wanted to employ him but enlisted in the name of Frank Herbert GIFFORD but was constantly on the default list (presume that means he was constantly in trouble?)?
Then in 1886 Frank Herbert GIFFORD of no fixed abode was convicted of stealing a parcel from a tram in York - he was 49 so that would give a birthdate of around 1837/39 (no mention of military career then)?
Makes me wonder if he really was Frank Herbert??
Best of luck - that looks like a very complicated search!
Jane?
Chasing W(H)ELDRAKE/DRICK, WELDRAKE/DRICK - any variation, anywhere, anytime?
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 at 21:28, Lynley Chapman via <lynleybrian54= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth date for him so he was possibly born before civil registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's occupation is "Officer".
Their second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in Brighton.
A third daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son, named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial Clerk.
Around 1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.? There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
?
UK newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers and serving in India.
His last UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he did time for theft.
However there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of his military career.
On Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July 1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
Lynley Chapman
Whitby, New Zealand
|
Hi Lynley,
Looking at Hannah GIFFORD in the 1881 Census, she is listed as a widow and when she married Joseph DRISCOLL in 1882 she had reverted back to her maiden name so could it be possible that Frank died between 1878 when his son Frank Charles GIFFORD was born and the 1881 Census? ? ? (You might have to refresh the page to see the preview)
Frank's signature when he married Hannah in 1863 does not match the signature in 1879 to Emily HOW so I don't think they are the same man. ?
The Annie GIFFORD aged 13 stepdaughter of Joseph DRISCOLL in the 1891 Census is a mystery too. ??(You might have to refresh the page to see the preview)
I couldn't find Frank in any of the Census in England either...very frustrating!
Regards, Jen Sydney AU
------ Original Message ------
On: 4/11/2024?Lynley Chapman wrote:
Subject: [yorksgen] Frank Herbert GIFFORD
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth date for him so he was possibly born before civil registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's occupation is "Officer".
Their second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in Brighton.
A third daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son, named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial Clerk.
Around 1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.? There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
UK newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers and serving in India.
His last UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he did time for theft.
However there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of his military career.
On Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July 1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
|
Hi Jen,
Thank you for all your help.?? Hannah was either pregnant or almost pregnant at the time of the 1881 census to Joseph DRISCOLL who she married in Brighton in 1882.? Having done quite a bit of research on this family they were not afraid of changing names, status etc.? So Hannah possibly used "widow" to cover herself. I cannot find a death for Frank Herbert GIFFORD and so she was likely a bigamist when she married for Joseph DRISCOLL.
Annie GIFFORD in the 1891 census is a puzzle as you say.? She changed to Annie DRISCOLL in the 1901 census living with Hannah.? I cannot find a birth to Hannah for an Annie circa 1876.?
?But there is this one:? Annie Driscoll born 1876 DRISCOLL, ANNIE ? ? Mother's maiden name = HARRINGTON ?
GRO Reference: 1876 ?M Quarter in BRIGHTON ?Volume 02B ?Page 244
Child of William and Mary Ann DRISCOLL, nee HARRINGTON, married 1855.?
I haven't researched the DRISCOLL clan in Brighton but there is a Mary and Annie DRISCOLL working together washing and ironing.
I've found a couple of newspaper reports that involve Hannah and Annie DRISCOLL.
Frank seemed to avoid census records! Thanks again Lynley
Hi Lynley,
Looking at Hannah GIFFORD in the 1881 Census, she is listed as a widow and when she married Joseph DRISCOLL in 1882 she had reverted back to her maiden name so could it be possible that Frank died between 1878 when his son Frank Charles GIFFORD was born and the 1881 Census? ? ? (You might have to refresh the page to see the preview)
Frank's signature when he married Hannah in 1863 does not match the signature in 1879 to Emily HOW so I don't think they are the same man. ?
The Annie GIFFORD aged 13 stepdaughter of Joseph DRISCOLL in the 1891 Census is a mystery too. ??(You might have to refresh the page to see the preview)
I couldn't find Frank in any of the Census in England either...very frustrating!
Regards, Jen Sydney AU
------ Original Message ------
On: 4/11/2024?Lynley Chapman wrote:
Subject: [yorksgen] Frank Herbert GIFFORD
Hello listers,
?
I am trying to find out more about Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? He married my gt gt grandfather's sister Hannah MORRISON on August 10th 1863 in Brighton, Sussex.? I do not have a birth date for him so he was possibly born before civil registration.
?
On his marriage certificate he states his occupation as a Corporal 9th Lancers and his father named as George William GIFFORD, Gentleman.
?
Hannah and Frank had their first daughter named Louisa Annie.? She was baptised on July 3rd 1864 in Brighton and Frank's occupation is "Officer".
Their second daughter Minnie Bertha was born on 12th March 1871 in Brighton.
A third daughter was born on 24th December 1873 in Brighton with Frank's occupation recorded as Commercial Traveller.
A son, named Frank Charles GIFFORD was born on 14th July 1876 in Brighton, his father's occupation was recorded as Commercial Clerk.
Around 1878? the relationship between Hannah and Frank broke down.? There is a possible marriage for a Frank Herbert GIFFORD to Emily HOW in Canterbury, Kent in 1879, June quarter vol 2a, pg 1139
Hannah remarried in 1882 to Joseph DRISCOLL in Brighton.
UK newspapers list several? reports regarding Frank Herbert GIFFORD and many link to his pride in being in 9th Lancers and serving in India.
His last UK newspaper record is from Yorl, Yorkshire in 1888 when he did time for theft.
However there are two newspaper reports from a Toronto newspaper in August 1889 for wife beating and again mention is made of his military career.
On Familysearch there is a marriage record in Toronto in July 1889.? His parents are recorded as George Edward and Louise Charlotte GIFFORD, Frank's occupation Surgeon.??? So this may not be the man I am interested in.?
I cannot find a death record for FH GIFFORD in England or in Canada.
I have not found any confirmed UK census records for Frank.
2 of Frank's daughters emigrated to Canada in 1888.? Hannah did not die until 1909 in Brighton.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.? Thank you
|
Lynley
?
Just to add to what others have posted:
?
There is also a report in Cork Constution 20 Nov 1867 where Frank accused Daniel Regan of keeping two letters addressed to him "Mr F H GIFFORD, Cork Barracks, Cork". Frank was a private of 9th Lancers
?
?
Another report of the same event referred to Francis GIFFORD.
?
?
I tried to find Emily GIFFORD (nee HOWS) on 1881 census but had no luck.
?
I did note? that a birth of Herbert Stanley GIFFORD (mother's maiden name HOWS) was registered Fulham, Dec Q1879? Volume?01A ?Page?277?
?
Also, with the Brighton connection an Emily HOWS married Harry BEATY 1883 Dec Q Vol 2b Page 475
?
Emily died Brighton Dec Q 1899? Vol2b Page 756 ?aged 40
?
Probably nothing to do with Frank, but you never know.
?
Lin
|
Hi Linley
I wonder if the army might have some records relating to him in the 9th Lancers??
Derby Art Gallery and Museum seems to have information about the regiment though any records might be held at the National Archives.?
best wishes
Jane?
Lynley
?
Just to add to what others have posted:
?
There is also a report in Cork Constution 20 Nov 1867 where Frank accused Daniel Regan of keeping two letters addressed to him "Mr F H GIFFORD, Cork Barracks, Cork". Frank was a private of 9th Lancers
?
?
Another report of the same event referred to Francis GIFFORD.
?
?
I tried to find Emily GIFFORD (nee HOWS) on 1881 census but had no luck.
?
I did note? that a birth of Herbert Stanley GIFFORD (mother's maiden name HOWS) was registered Fulham, Dec Q1879? Volume?01A ?Page?277?
?
Also, with the Brighton connection an Emily HOWS married Harry BEATY 1883 Dec Q Vol 2b Page 475
?
Emily died Brighton Dec Q 1899? Vol2b Page 756 ?aged 40
?
Probably nothing to do with Frank, but you never know.
?
Lin
|
Hi Lin,
Well I have a deluge of information provided by members of this group regarding FH GIFFORD.? I am delighted.? I'm not sure I will find a birth and death for him but his story is colourful.
Thanks for these latest offerings and for checking on Emily GIFFORD, nee HOWS.? I had not found her in the 1881 census.? The child is interesting and another possible marriage for her because Frank did not appear to be keen on being a husband and provider for long.
I think one of the court martial records for Frank was held in Ireland.? I'll check out dates etc today. Lynley
Lynley
?
Just to add to what others have posted:
?
There is also a report in Cork Constution 20 Nov 1867 where Frank accused Daniel Regan of keeping two letters addressed to him "Mr F H GIFFORD, Cork Barracks, Cork". Frank was a private of 9th Lancers
?
?
Another report of the same event referred to Francis GIFFORD.
?
?
I tried to find Emily GIFFORD (nee HOWS) on 1881 census but had no luck.
?
I did note? that a birth of Herbert Stanley GIFFORD (mother's maiden name HOWS) was registered Fulham, Dec Q1879? Volume?01A ?Page?277?
?
Also, with the Brighton connection an Emily HOWS married Harry BEATY 1883 Dec Q Vol 2b Page 475
?
Emily died Brighton Dec Q 1899? Vol2b Page 756 ?aged 40
?
Probably nothing to do with Frank, but you never know.
?
Lin
|
Hi Jane,
I was thinking I need to find out more about 9th Lancers.? Regimental history has not featured in my family history research up until now.? Thank you very much for those links. Lynley
On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 at 09:59, JA Woodall via <jane.woodall2016= [email protected]> wrote: Hi Linley
I wonder if the army might have some records relating to him in the 9th Lancers??
Derby Art Gallery and Museum seems to have information about the regiment though any records might be held at the National Archives.?
best wishes
Jane?
Lynley
?
Just to add to what others have posted:
?
There is also a report in Cork Constution 20 Nov 1867 where Frank accused Daniel Regan of keeping two letters addressed to him "Mr F H GIFFORD, Cork Barracks, Cork". Frank was a private of 9th Lancers
?
?
Another report of the same event referred to Francis GIFFORD.
?
?
I tried to find Emily GIFFORD (nee HOWS) on 1881 census but had no luck.
?
I did note? that a birth of Herbert Stanley GIFFORD (mother's maiden name HOWS) was registered Fulham, Dec Q1879? Volume?01A ?Page?277?
?
Also, with the Brighton connection an Emily HOWS married Harry BEATY 1883 Dec Q Vol 2b Page 475
?
Emily died Brighton Dec Q 1899? Vol2b Page 756 ?aged 40
?
Probably nothing to do with Frank, but you never know.
?
Lin
|
Hi Lin,
Well I purchased the birth record for Herbert Stanley GIFFORD, 1879 and oh look the 9th Lancer Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? See attached. I wonder how Emily fared post birth.? Both Hannah and Frank were bigamists.
Lynley
Lynley
?
Just to add to what others have posted:
?
There is also a report in Cork Constution 20 Nov 1867 where Frank accused Daniel Regan of keeping two letters addressed to him "Mr F H GIFFORD, Cork Barracks, Cork". Frank was a private of 9th Lancers
?
?
Another report of the same event referred to Francis GIFFORD.
?
?
I tried to find Emily GIFFORD (nee HOWS) on 1881 census but had no luck.
?
I did note? that a birth of Herbert Stanley GIFFORD (mother's maiden name HOWS) was registered Fulham, Dec Q1879? Volume?01A ?Page?277?
?
Also, with the Brighton connection an Emily HOWS married Harry BEATY 1883 Dec Q Vol 2b Page 475
?
Emily died Brighton Dec Q 1899? Vol2b Page 756 ?aged 40
?
Probably nothing to do with Frank, but you never know.
?
Lin
|
Hi Lynley
?
Well, well - Franks certainly was a quite a character.
?
I wonder who he really was!.
?
Just a bit more Clara Louisa GIFFORD married John HUNTER in Ontario, Canada in 1898. Father Frank GIFFORD, mother Anna MORRISON. He was 41, born England; she was aged 34, born in Ireland. Is this Louisa Hannah? I wonder why she is now Clara Louisa?
?
Lin
?
Well I purchased the birth record for Herbert Stanley GIFFORD, 1879 and oh look the 9th Lancer Frank Herbert GIFFORD. ?See attached.
I wonder how Emily fared post birth. ?Both Hannah and Frank were bigamists.
Lynley
|
Hi Lin,
A real "chancer" across so much.....but he kept that name and the "pride" in being a 9th Lancer....when he wasn't deserting on many occasions!? A judge in one case said he was a "rogue and a? vagabond"....
Ah you have found the muddle that was Louisa Annie GIFFORD, born to Hannah and Frank in Brighton in 1864. Hannah and her children were not born in Ireland but Hannah's parents Michael and Margaret MORRISON, nee KEHOE say they were born around 1800 in Dublin or Dublin environs.?? Louisa changed her name to Clara while in England.? ? HUNTER was her married name and the one she used before she married John. She kept that until many years later when she remarried in America to?Chauncey Post SPEAKER.? Louisa/Clara also added in Edith?to her name in records in Canada.
Louisa/Clara had two daughters to John Josiah HUNTER in Portsmouth before they emigrated to Canada.? They did not marry until 1897 after their fourth child was born.? First daughter born in 1885 and second daughter born in prison in 1887 after Clara HUNTER had been convicted of obtaining money under false pretences in Brighton.
There was also a testing name muddle with my 3x great grandparents Michael and Margaret Morrison,?nee KEHOE.? They used KEHOE for their children's surnames until they finally married in Brighton in 1845 after the birth of their last child.? Their lising in the 1841 UK census is under KEHOE. Can name games be hereditary I wonder?? LOL Lynley
Hi Lynley
?
Well, well - Franks certainly was a quite a character.
?
I wonder who he really was!.
?
Just a bit more Clara Louisa GIFFORD married John HUNTER in Ontario, Canada in 1898. Father Frank GIFFORD, mother Anna MORRISON. He was 41, born England; she was aged 34, born in Ireland. Is this Louisa Hannah? I wonder why she is now Clara Louisa?
?
Lin
?
Well I purchased the birth record for Herbert Stanley GIFFORD, 1879 and oh look the 9th Lancer Frank Herbert GIFFORD.? See attached.
I wonder how Emily fared post birth.? Both Hannah and Frank were bigamists.
Lynley
|
Hi Lynley
I saw Edith Clara HUNTER in Canada, but facts didn't add up.
1891 census John HUNTER is 36, born England Clara is 31, born
Ireland, Clara, 6, born England, Eva, 3, born England, John 1,
born Ontario.
Yet in Selected U.S. Naturalization Records. Edith Clara states
she was born 17 May 1873, Dublin, Ireland.
On the petition, her children are John, b 1894, Ontario, Clara b
1896, England, Eva b 1899, England and Joseph b 1902, Canada
I don't think that she could have had children after they appear
on a census, do you?
Lin
On 05/11/2024 20:54, Lynley Chapman via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Lin,
A real "chancer" across so much.....but he kept that name
and the "pride" in being a 9th Lancer....when he wasn't
deserting on many occasions!? A judge in one case said he was
a "rogue and a? vagabond"....
Ah you have found the muddle that was Louisa Annie GIFFORD,
born to Hannah and Frank in Brighton in 1864. Hannah and her
children were not born in Ireland but Hannah's parents Michael
and Margaret MORRISON, nee KEHOE say they were born around
1800 in Dublin or Dublin environs.??
Louisa changed her name to Clara while in England.? ?
HUNTER was her married name and the one she used before she
married John. She kept that until many years later when she
remarried in America to?Chauncey Post SPEAKER.? Louisa/Clara
also added in Edith?to her name in records in Canada.
Louisa/Clara had two daughters to John Josiah HUNTER in
Portsmouth before they emigrated to Canada.? They did not
marry until 1897 after their fourth child was born.? First
daughter born in 1885 and second daughter born in prison in
1887 after Clara HUNTER had been convicted of obtaining money
under false pretences in Brighton.
There was also a testing name muddle with my 3x great
grandparents Michael and Margaret Morrison,?nee KEHOE.? They
used KEHOE for their children's surnames until they finally
married in Brighton in 1845 after the birth of their last
child.? Their lising in the 1841 UK census is under KEHOE.
Can name games be hereditary I wonder?? LOL
Lynley
Hi Lynley
?
Well, well - Franks certainly was a quite a character.
?
I wonder who he really was!.
?
Just a bit more Clara Louisa GIFFORD married John HUNTER
in Ontario, Canada in 1898. Father Frank GIFFORD, mother
Anna MORRISON. He was 41, born England; she was aged 34,
born in Ireland. Is this Louisa Hannah? I wonder why she is
now Clara Louisa?
?
Lin
?
Well I purchased the birth record for Herbert Stanley
GIFFORD, 1879 and oh look the 9th Lancer Frank Herbert
GIFFORD.? See attached.
I wonder how Emily fared post birth.? Both Hannah and Frank
were bigamists.
Lynley
|
So much does not add up with this extended family.? I found Clara/Louisa on Familysearch.? A direct descendant of hers has posted a lot of information but I need to be wary as some dates are incorrect.? I messaged the?descendant given we are related but so far no response. I had Clara and John marrying in 1897 so it could be my error or an error on the family search data but the Carleton Schedule states 1898.
I don't have access to the US Naturalisation records and I presume the Petition of which you speak relates to that?
For Clara/Louisa and John I have Clara Maud and Eva Elizabeth born in England, John HUNTER born Canada 1889, Joseph John William HUNTER in Canada 1893, Dorothy Hannah May HUNTER born in Canada in 1899 and Ann M HUNTER (Annie) born in Canada in 1901.
Oral family history from a now deceased MORRISON descendant said that Clara/Louisa was a bit odd.
In a further strange twist Clara/Louisa's second husband Chauncey Post SPEAKER went to a dental appointment and never returned.? Apparently he was never found!
Clara/Louisa was in De Witt State Mental Hospital on 3rd May 1950 in the US Census of that year.? I have her death as 1st April 1953 in California.? Her daughter Dorothy Hannah May HUNTER appears to have gone to live in California.
It is quite a story without any of the other MORRISON family members I have been researching.?? Lynley
Hi Lynley
I saw Edith Clara HUNTER in Canada, but facts didn't add up.
1891 census John HUNTER is 36, born England Clara is 31, born
Ireland, Clara, 6, born England, Eva, 3, born England, John 1,
born Ontario.
Yet in Selected U.S. Naturalization Records. Edith Clara states
she was born 17 May 1873, Dublin, Ireland.
On the petition, her children are John, b 1894, Ontario, Clara b
1896, England, Eva b 1899, England and Joseph b 1902, Canada
I don't think that she could have had children after they appear
on a census, do you?
Lin
On 05/11/2024 20:54, Lynley Chapman via
wrote:
Hi Lin,
A real "chancer" across so much.....but he kept that name
and the "pride" in being a 9th Lancer....when he wasn't
deserting on many occasions!? A judge in one case said he was
a "rogue and a? vagabond"....
Ah you have found the muddle that was Louisa Annie GIFFORD,
born to Hannah and Frank in Brighton in 1864. Hannah and her
children were not born in Ireland but Hannah's parents Michael
and Margaret MORRISON, nee KEHOE say they were born around
1800 in Dublin or Dublin environs.??
Louisa changed her name to Clara while in England.? ?
HUNTER was her married name and the one she used before she
married John. She kept that until many years later when she
remarried in America to?Chauncey Post SPEAKER.? Louisa/Clara
also added in Edith?to her name in records in Canada.
Louisa/Clara had two daughters to John Josiah HUNTER in
Portsmouth before they emigrated to Canada.? They did not
marry until 1897 after their fourth child was born.? First
daughter born in 1885 and second daughter born in prison in
1887 after Clara HUNTER had been convicted of obtaining money
under false pretences in Brighton.
There was also a testing name muddle with my 3x great
grandparents Michael and Margaret Morrison,?nee KEHOE.? They
used KEHOE for their children's surnames until they finally
married in Brighton in 1845 after the birth of their last
child.? Their lising in the 1841 UK census is under KEHOE.
Can name games be hereditary I wonder?? LOL
Lynley
Hi Lynley
?
Well, well - Franks certainly was a quite a character.
?
I wonder who he really was!.
?
Just a bit more Clara Louisa GIFFORD married John HUNTER
in Ontario, Canada in 1898. Father Frank GIFFORD, mother
Anna MORRISON. He was 41, born England; she was aged 34,
born in Ireland. Is this Louisa Hannah? I wonder why she is
now Clara Louisa?
?
Lin
?
Well I purchased the birth record for Herbert Stanley
GIFFORD, 1879 and oh look the 9th Lancer Frank Herbert
GIFFORD.? See attached.
I wonder how Emily fared post birth.? Both Hannah and Frank
were bigamists.
Lynley
|
