Mike, glad you got them, and I hope you enjoy your first game. As I've said before this is the first set of rules I have produced, and I've done all I can to ensure they make sense, but in some areas I realise that I could have been clearer. Rather than wait six months and issue a 2nd edition, I shall post any changes here, and update all new rules that go out with the changes. If anyone wants clarification on anything I am happy to email them the whole rule section as it now stands. Fortunately this is an issue of clarification rather than changing rules, although I do think that some of the early pre-publication copies that went with our "cheap as chips" offer did have an old set of artillery rules in by mistake. What I shall do is post the up to date section for artillery in the files section here so that they can check if they've got the "right stuff". In the interim if you have any pre-match queries then just post them here and we'll put you right. Thanks Richard -- In Toofatlardies@..., "mikenorton1ny" <mikenorton1ny@y...> wrote: Thanks for your prompt sending of the rules. I have read through
them twice now and they look very interesting. We will be trying
them on Saturday.
By the way I saw you listed on Modmil discussion group earlier today.
Mike
|
Thanks for your prompt sending of the rules. I have read through
them twice now and they look very interesting. We will be trying
them on Saturday.
By the way I saw you listed on Modmil discussion group earlier today.
Mike
|
My group would very much like to playtest ' Charlie Don't Surf'.
The title alone peaked their interest. :P Thanks for the offer.
-Steve
|
Re: first playtest game-very long post!
Steve Listing of factors. The factors are only suggestions, I believe that there are far too many unquantifiables to list them all, as such I have probably not listed enough. Mea Culpa. I have, however, always hovered around leaving snap-fire as the basic and actually giving +2 for aiming if the weather is very clear, again it is part of asking the umpire (who is also the scenario designer probably) to think clearly about all of these issues when setting out on running the game. It's an option that I leave to gamers. I have shied away from +this or that as it has to be viewed on the specific situation. Walkie talkies is an highly dubious argument I would agree. The biggest rule in IABSM is that if it couldn't happen in real life it can't happen in the game. Artillery. The time-scale is very short in IABSM, so it is necessary to reflect artillery zeroing in with ranging shots before their barrage commences. The Brits in the Scenario of the Month, you may note, have two spotters. This is not so they can spot two different things, but to increase the likelihood of their card coming out and their ranging shots, therefore, being corrected more quickly. MG fire. Yes you were correct to get them to fire only once. As to multi-barrelled MGs, I have always felt that we need to be careful with them, they are not as effective as two separate MGs that are being individually aimed, but they are chucking out twice the lead. I add +3 to the score of the dice roll for their fire effect. Prolonging Artillery. Yes the 1D6 movement is all of their movement, so on its next card it can relay and have one dice left for whatever it wants, a snap fire maybe! Certainly crews did manhandle their larger AT pieces, or the damned things would still be on tow to this day. But reflecting on that I would go with 2 D6 for a little early war PaK35, 1D6 for a PaK40/6 pounder and half 1D6 for 17pounder size. The issue comes with 2 pounders and the like that need properly setting up with their wheels sorting out. I would say 1 turn to get that deployed or undeployed (no such word, but you know what I mean) and then move as per the Pak35. Your "bug squashing" scenario sound fine to me. The tow for AT guns is definitely operating on their card. If moving as a group when out of action they will all be activated on one card. If using the multiple AT card option then they will move on the first AT card out. Limbering, unlimbering is all about one dice per action. One dice to unhook, then the two dice to deploy, that's their lot this turn. They may fire on an AT bonus card though (or the last AT card out of the pack if you're using the multiple card option). Infantry debussing is in the rules, one dice gets them out but immediately next to the transport vehicle. Yes, if the vehicle has used the 3 dice then the troops in it (or the towed weapon) is considered to have used all of its dice as well. Spotting is even more damned unquantifiable than shooting. However whereas no shooting is a certain hit, some spotting MUST be. If there's ten blokes on the lawn in front of your house and you are next to the window, you shouldn't need to roll a dice to see the buggers. If they are there at the end of a turn they will be placed on the table as part of the automatic spotting rule (12.1). If they move there in the turn and the player in the house spots he will not need to roll a dice to see them, however he WILL need to give up one dice for spotting, as this represents the section adjusting its sights, estimating range, taking aim etc. As such, there is no one staring point. I would use the following examples, with distances being for the tabletop. A moving squad 6" in the open automatic Ditto 12" away 4 or more on 2D6 Ditto 18" away 5 or more Ditto 36" away 8 or more A moving Platoon 6" away in the open automatic Ditto 12" away 3 or more Ditto 18" away 4 or more Ditto 36" away 6 or more A stationary squad 6" away in leafy cover automatically I would place a blind on them, actually spotted on 7 or more. Ditto 12" away 10 or more Ditto 18" away 11 or more Ditto 36" away No hope But obviously more if they're firing. But equally this absolutely depends on your perception of the terrain. How thick's the hedge, what time of year is it, is the spotter a trained recce unit or a Big Man, how good a Big Man is he. Don't be afraid to say roll the dice and then make a decision based on the result, it's usually pretty obvious whether they've done well, badly or whatever. As umpire you are God. Don't let them forget it! ;-D Equally if a unit states that it is giving up more than one of its initiative dice for spotting them we add pluses. For example if a player said this section is using all three of its dice to spot that hedge line I would add +2 (one for each extra dice) this reflects them doing more than taking a cursory glance. Well worth doing in my experience. One more issue regarding spotting. The unit card is the one that it started its turn on. For example is a German unit is spotted it is still activated this turn by the German Blinds card. The reason for this, fairly obviously, is that German Platoon X card may already have been dealt. As an aside if you're interested, or anyone else out there in Lard Land, I am happy to let you have a copy of the draft 'Nam rules, "Charlie Don't Surf" at zero cost. If anyone wants to help playtest them with their own groups (or solo) then we're more than happy to let you. Regards Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: Hi Richard,
The snapshot explaination makes sense. I think that the problem
arose since 'snapshot' was not listed in the '- factors'. When we
played we rationalized that snapshot was your 'normal' fire before
you took more time to aim. This comes from playing to many different rulesets and bolting on these assumptions onto the new set! Adding it to the list of '- factors' should fix that problem.
I'm glad I've got a better handle on the 'Big Men'. I like how you mention that they need to have some sort of communication device to
observe artillery fire. One of my biggest gripes in WW2 gaming was
allowing the 'leader',no matter where, to call in artillery smack,
dab on target! Usually the response was they've got walkie talkies! Well that's not linked to the battery!
Having read the indirect fire/ artillery rules I like how the
sequence is done, seems much more realistic.
As for the miscue on the tank MG's you'll have to take alittle of
the blame! You've got us all thinking in terms of 'initiative dice'
now,so that when a phrase like 'firing dice but not spotting' comes
up, my mind already clicks to 'initiative dice! ,Chalk it up to the
success of your game system. :P So we did it right during the game, only allowing them to fire once, whether the tank was stationary or
moving.
I do have a question which is probably obvious but what the hell!
With tanks, like the Pz I, and other multi barrelled mgs, the twin
vickers on the SAS jeeps and the quad 50 cal.s, they fire once using the appropriate dice but each 'barrel' gets to fire that number of
dice, and since they're linked it would have to be at the same target? In the prolonged AT rule. I assume that the movement 1d6 takes up
the action of the card and on it's next card it can relay and perhaps snapfire?
17 pounders and the PAK 43 are toughies for letting them prolong.
their big buggers but then I have seen pics of the crews man-
handling them into place. I guess if in a scenario the gun is being
outflanked you could allow them a d4 and they better hope they've got enough movement to adjust and that their next card comes up before
they're squashed like a bug! Of course it might also be fun to not
allow it and watch the player's face turn red as his 'perfect
position',is outflanked. Sometimes umpiring games can be so
rewarding! :P
While on AT guns I have a question about towing vehicles. What is
the sequence for limbering/unlimbering guns? I'm assuming,[again!],
that would cost at least one intiative dice? Would the tow vehicle be part of the AT Gun's card? I ask this since there are numerous
battles where the guns had to be hastily moved up and put in
position, Villers-Boccage comes to mind. I'm also figuring that
troops on board vehicles would use one initiative dice to debuss; of course if the vehicle has already moved with 3 dice then they're
stuck.
We're going to start adding spotting and we've thought it would be good to use the 'Hitting the Target' numbers as good starting points: tanks and other big things being '8' and AT guns, small infantry
groups etc getting a '10' before adding other factors, but what do
you guys use in your games as starting points?
I like the new scenario and have got some questions about it and
some more general questions but will save them for a later post and
give you a rest!
Thanks again for the help, Steve
-- In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke"
<richardclarkerli@y...> wrote:
Steve
The bazooka would not get aimed as he moved first, infantry can have
an aimed shot, but if he nips out, pops off a quickie and then ducks
back (or attempts to!) then it's hardly marksmanship level. If he nipped out, then aimed, then fired, not northing to duck back he
would get aimed.
I may have mislead when I earlier suggested that snap shot was a
minus 2. Of course snap shot is two worse than an aimed shot, aimed
effectively makes your shot easier (+1 in traditional parlance) while
un-aimed, i.e. "snap", makes it one level harder. In fact whilst
firing starts with "not bad" firing only remains at that level if
other factors bring it back to there, if no other factors come to
bear, i.e. it is a perfectly normal shot, no smoke, no fire on
the firer not nothing, then the shot will always be easy for aimed,
or hard for snap. My +2 reference was based on the fact that most first
shots are aimed, so I calculate for that, then if the next shot
is snapped off I just add two. Make sense?
Big Men. Yup, if Barkmann had been on board he could activate
his own tank on the turn of his card, not all of his "troop" to use
British parlance.
The US Captain could certainly activate his entire Platoon on the run
of his card if they weren't in action, his rank allows him to do so.
In battle, however, he could only influence the section he is with.
Looking at your direct "Have I got it right" questions.
1. Yup
2. Yes, although we've agreed on the 4" shout. Seems that he
would be able to say "You chaps, follow me" and then join them in
their move. If he was outside shouting range it must be that he
spends this turn moving to the unit, then can command them next
time
his card comes up.
3. Big Men, of whatever rank, may do the same things, which are
what you suggest the officer can do. The spotting thing has to
be "real", i.e. of Sgt Smith of Captain Smythe are in fixed positions
with access to a telephone then they can spot for artillery. If
they're in a ditch with no communications then they can't.
4. Yup. Although an AT officer can command a gun section or
battery, in which case he may move amongst his guns doing the
Napoleon bit.
I agree on support weapons. Generally the order would be, sit there
and shoot over there, they'd only stop that when someone came
over and said "right, move over there and shoot those buggers now".
Tanks MGs. Aha. No. MG fire from tanks becomes like normal MG
fire, it only happens once with all of your dice. So a
stationary tank firing its hull MG would role two dice for its whole turn's
fire. It rolls less than an infantry MG as its visibility is bloody
awful, it is assumed to be spraying an area rather than
delivering accurate fire. Yes to the assumed shot and minuses. The difference
between firing from a safe position and firing when under fire is
huge, and should be reflected. The game attempts to be about
reality, although the systems are very much of the "game" genre.
Don't worry about digging in. These games only last twenty
minutes game time, so tell him he got there earlier and has already dug
in, you just saved him the job! Yes, the PIAT is a great weapon for
blasting holes in boccage, church towers, anywhere really, why waste
in on tanks!
Prolonging of AT guns, happened last night, 1D6. To relay the
gun and get ready for action takes 2D6 (so they can always loose off
a snap shot. I am in two minds about the 17pdrs, I'd probably say no,
but you can make your own mind up on that.
Richard
|
Re: first playtest game-very long post!
Hi Richard, The snapshot explaination makes sense. I think that the problem arose since 'snapshot' was not listed in the '- factors'. When we played we rationalized that snapshot was your 'normal' fire before you took more time to aim. This comes from playing to many different rulesets and bolting on these assumptions onto the new set! Adding it to the list of '- factors' should fix that problem. I'm glad I've got a better handle on the 'Big Men'. I like how you mention that they need to have some sort of communication device to observe artillery fire. One of my biggest gripes in WW2 gaming was allowing the 'leader',no matter where, to call in artillery smack, dab on target! Usually the response was they've got walkie talkies! Well that's not linked to the battery! Having read the indirect fire/ artillery rules I like how the sequence is done, seems much more realistic. As for the miscue on the tank MG's you'll have to take alittle of the blame! You've got us all thinking in terms of 'initiative dice' now,so that when a phrase like 'firing dice but not spotting' comes up, my mind already clicks to 'initiative dice! ,Chalk it up to the success of your game system. :P So we did it right during the game, only allowing them to fire once, whether the tank was stationary or moving. I do have a question which is probably obvious but what the hell! With tanks, like the Pz I, and other multi barrelled mgs, the twin vickers on the SAS jeeps and the quad 50 cal.s, they fire once using the appropriate dice but each 'barrel' gets to fire that number of dice, and since they're linked it would have to be at the same target? In the prolonged AT rule. I assume that the movement 1d6 takes up the action of the card and on it's next card it can relay and perhaps snapfire? 17 pounders and the PAK 43 are toughies for letting them prolong. their big buggers but then I have seen pics of the crews man- handling them into place. I guess if in a scenario the gun is being outflanked you could allow them a d4 and they better hope they've got enough movement to adjust and that their next card comes up before they're squashed like a bug! Of course it might also be fun to not allow it and watch the player's face turn red as his 'perfect position',is outflanked. Sometimes umpiring games can be so rewarding! :P While on AT guns I have a question about towing vehicles. What is the sequence for limbering/unlimbering guns? I'm assuming,[again!], that would cost at least one intiative dice? Would the tow vehicle be part of the AT Gun's card? I ask this since there are numerous battles where the guns had to be hastily moved up and put in position, Villers-Boccage comes to mind. I'm also figuring that troops on board vehicles would use one initiative dice to debuss; of course if the vehicle has already moved with 3 dice then they're stuck. We're going to start adding spotting and we've thought it would be good to use the 'Hitting the Target' numbers as good starting points: tanks and other big things being '8' and AT guns, small infantry groups etc getting a '10' before adding other factors, but what do you guys use in your games as starting points? I like the new scenario and have got some questions about it and some more general questions but will save them for a later post and give you a rest! Thanks again for the help, Steve -- In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke" <richardclarkerli@y...> wrote: Steve
The bazooka would not get aimed as he moved first, infantry can have an aimed shot, but if he nips out, pops off a quickie and then ducks back (or attempts to!) then it's hardly marksmanship level. If he
nipped out, then aimed, then fired, not northing to duck back he
would get aimed.
I may have mislead when I earlier suggested that snap shot was a
minus 2. Of course snap shot is two worse than an aimed shot, aimed effectively makes your shot easier (+1 in traditional parlance) while un-aimed, i.e. "snap", makes it one level harder. In fact whilst
firing starts with "not bad" firing only remains at that level if
other factors bring it back to there, if no other factors come to
bear, i.e. it is a perfectly normal shot, no smoke, no fire on the
firer not nothing, then the shot will always be easy for aimed, or
hard for snap. My +2 reference was based on the fact that most first shots are aimed, so I calculate for that, then if the next shot is
snapped off I just add two. Make sense?
Big Men. Yup, if Barkmann had been on board he could activate his
own tank on the turn of his card, not all of his "troop" to use
British parlance.
The US Captain could certainly activate his entire Platoon on the run of his card if they weren't in action, his rank allows him to do so. In battle, however, he could only influence the section he is with.
Looking at your direct "Have I got it right" questions.
1. Yup
2. Yes, although we've agreed on the 4" shout. Seems that he
would be able to say "You chaps, follow me" and then join them in
their move. If he was outside shouting range it must be that he
spends this turn moving to the unit, then can command them next
time his card comes up.
3. Big Men, of whatever rank, may do the same things, which are
what you suggest the officer can do. The spotting thing has to
be "real", i.e. of Sgt Smith of Captain Smythe are in fixed positions with access to a telephone then they can spot for artillery. If
they're in a ditch with no communications then they can't.
4. Yup. Although an AT officer can command a gun section or
battery, in which case he may move amongst his guns doing the
Napoleon bit.
I agree on support weapons. Generally the order would be, sit there and shoot over there, they'd only stop that when someone came over
and said "right, move over there and shoot those buggers now".
Tanks MGs. Aha. No. MG fire from tanks becomes like normal MG
fire, it only happens once with all of your dice. So a stationary
tank firing its hull MG would role two dice for its whole turn's
fire. It rolls less than an infantry MG as its visibility is bloody awful, it is assumed to be spraying an area rather than delivering
accurate fire. Yes to the assumed shot and minuses. The difference between firing from a safe position and firing when under fire is
huge, and should be reflected. The game attempts to be about
reality, although the systems are very much of the "game" genre.
Don't worry about digging in. These games only last twenty minutes
game time, so tell him he got there earlier and has already dug in,
you just saved him the job! Yes, the PIAT is a great weapon for
blasting holes in boccage, church towers, anywhere really, why waste in on tanks!
Prolonging of AT guns, happened last night, 1D6. To relay the gun
and get ready for action takes 2D6 (so they can always loose off a
snap shot. I am in two minds about the 17pdrs, I'd probably say no, but you can make your own mind up on that.
Richard
|
Gentlemen
The Second in our Scenario of the Month Series has been posted this
morning, it's certainly a contrast to the small primer that I
suggested last month. For newcomers I would not reccomend such a
large game for an evening's play, but it does illustrate how big a
game one can achieve with a Company level rule set.
We played the game last night, and I was pleased with how historical
the outcome was. The Scots attack was, as historically happened,
broken up by friendly fire. This delayed their attack, so that by
the time they got to St Mauvieu (or Manvieu, depening on your
map/account)the barrage was long gone and their smoke screen had
dissipated.
Despite being hurt by the initial stonk (losing one of their precious
MMGs) the Germans held their ground, largely due to their greater
numbers of Big Men who shored up the line. I did give them too many
snipers, and I have altered that in the orbats listed on the scenario
pages.
The British reaction to the Tiger was very historical, indeed it did
very little damage (due to huge amounts of British smoke) before its
crew abandoned it when its running gear was damaged, however the
British tankers kept firing at it for another half a dozen turns
before a Firefly finally flanked it and blew it up.
Good to see the pipes play their part, maintaining the advance even
when the troops hesitated.
High points of the game for me were...
British artillery, THE artillery force of the war providing excellent
close support.
German rally card allowing good quality troops to stick in there
where other lesser units would have been utterly suppressed.
The British attack superficially falling apart, but actually inching
forward and coming close to achieveing its goal, just not enough Bog
Men to take it over the last hurdle.
The stonk system, buggering everyones plans. Arf arf.
The Brits shooting at the lone Tiger for ages after its crew had
cleared off. A powerful psychological weapon indeed.
Photos soon.
Rich
|
Re: first playtest game-very long post!
Steve The bazooka would not get aimed as he moved first, infantry can have an aimed shot, but if he nips out, pops off a quickie and then ducks back (or attempts to!) then it's hardly marksmanship level. If he nipped out, then aimed, then fired, not northing to duck back he would get aimed. I may have mislead when I earlier suggested that snap shot was a minus 2. Of course snap shot is two worse than an aimed shot, aimed effectively makes your shot easier (+1 in traditional parlance) while un-aimed, i.e. "snap", makes it one level harder. In fact whilst firing starts with "not bad" firing only remains at that level if other factors bring it back to there, if no other factors come to bear, i.e. it is a perfectly normal shot, no smoke, no fire on the firer not nothing, then the shot will always be easy for aimed, or hard for snap. My +2 reference was based on the fact that most first shots are aimed, so I calculate for that, then if the next shot is snapped off I just add two. Make sense? Big Men. Yup, if Barkmann had been on board he could activate his own tank on the turn of his card, not all of his "troop" to use British parlance. The US Captain could certainly activate his entire Platoon on the run of his card if they weren't in action, his rank allows him to do so. In battle, however, he could only influence the section he is with. Looking at your direct "Have I got it right" questions. 1. Yup 2. Yes, although we've agreed on the 4" shout. Seems that he would be able to say "You chaps, follow me" and then join them in their move. If he was outside shouting range it must be that he spends this turn moving to the unit, then can command them next time his card comes up. 3. Big Men, of whatever rank, may do the same things, which are what you suggest the officer can do. The spotting thing has to be "real", i.e. of Sgt Smith of Captain Smythe are in fixed positions with access to a telephone then they can spot for artillery. If they're in a ditch with no communications then they can't. 4. Yup. Although an AT officer can command a gun section or battery, in which case he may move amongst his guns doing the Napoleon bit. I agree on support weapons. Generally the order would be, sit there and shoot over there, they'd only stop that when someone came over and said "right, move over there and shoot those buggers now". Tanks MGs. Aha. No. MG fire from tanks becomes like normal MG fire, it only happens once with all of your dice. So a stationary tank firing its hull MG would role two dice for its whole turn's fire. It rolls less than an infantry MG as its visibility is bloody awful, it is assumed to be spraying an area rather than delivering accurate fire. Yes to the assumed shot and minuses. The difference between firing from a safe position and firing when under fire is huge, and should be reflected. The game attempts to be about reality, although the systems are very much of the "game" genre. Don't worry about digging in. These games only last twenty minutes game time, so tell him he got there earlier and has already dug in, you just saved him the job! Yes, the PIAT is a great weapon for blasting holes in boccage, church towers, anywhere really, why waste in on tanks! Prolonging of AT guns, happened last night, 1D6. To relay the gun and get ready for action takes 2D6 (so they can always loose off a snap shot. I am in two minds about the 17pdrs, I'd probably say no, but you can make your own mind up on that. Richard -- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for your quick response.
Actually the Panther got the extra fire card because in fact we
didn't have a AT gun model for the game :P ,and I did figure it would be a 'pillbox' on the defensive and added the 'Lack of Petrol' card
to make sure! That card worked out well, after mauling my tanks Mike was considering redeploying to get after Johann's tanks who
were 'stuck in the mud' with all those Tea Breaks. Well the Petrol
card popped up and he rolled a '6', nothing left but to survey the
death and destruction he caused.
With the bazooka man example we figured that there could be a 'bad roll' with the second movement dice, that's why we like the
possibilities in the initiative dice. The only 'Great shot' was
against my HMG that didn't have enough movement to get to cover,
leaving him wide open to a German rifle section, ouch! In your reply you mention that the Bazooka would only get a snap-fire, is this
because he, as a infantry AT, moved first? Do infantry AT only get
their 'aimed' first shot if stationary? We let the Shermans who moved get their aimed first shot since we noticed that the 'firer moved
this turn' negated the plus for the aimed shot,noting from the 2
pounder example that 'aimed' is a plus one level,[ from 'hard'
to 'not bad'];So even though moving messes up your aimed shot it
still keeps the 'aimed first shot' rule in place.. Also we allowed
infantry not to use all their movement rolled, is this correct?
Now that you state that BIG MEN should be placed in their
appropriate 'service' branch, I can now see where we went wrong! :P
Indeed, if the Panther had BIG MAN Barkmann on board then he would activate the tanks initiative dice on his card, he wouldn't be able
to order infantry, yell at them,yes , but not order them.
The American Captain was used to move an entire platoon not being
shot at, but we must make sure he is within 4" of the sections to do this, correct?
Sgts weren't a problem since each was assigned to a section.
So let me see if I've got my ducks in a row:
1] Any infantry section will only activate on a Big Man's card if he is part of the section OR within 4",[and line of sight].
2] a Big Man must be in contact when his card comes up to perform
#1. The Big Man cannot use initiative to 'walk up and join and then
activate them. He would have to wait for his next card to activate
the unit.
3] Big Men,[officers], can either spot, move, activate[in contact] , observe artillery rounds, take away wounds[in contact], but only one of these per card. Sgts can move,activate [in contact], and take away wounds[in contact].
4]To activate tanks/ AT guns the Big Man must be assigned to them at the beginning of the game.
Support weapons: in the game we allowed Big men to move into
contact and activate the weapons for movement. From the above we
would now move a Big Man into contact,[taking personal command] and
then await his next card to move the weapon? We did like the fact
that Big Men were needed to move/redeploy the weapons as in real life. Fully understand the response about blocking line of fire; this
should make the games a little more tactical!
BOW MG's and other tank MG's: If I understand correctly each MG
gets their own initiative dice to only fire with. So if a tank is
stationary then the bow MG would fire 3 times with 2d6 each shot.
This will make the tanks a little nastier. Also, even though the
movement negates the MG fire dice, you still assume that it shot at
the target to give them minuses for their fire, I like that alot!
Shame about 'digging in', I have a friend who plays Paras and used to love digging in and fortifying towns! Oh well,i'll placate him
with the PIAT with the 90mm HE! :P
Also beside actual scenario driven positions I might let sides roll to see which of their troops dug-in before the start of less
formal 'pick-up' games.
One other item that was brought up but I forgot to mention is crews prolonging their AT guns.Would you allow the crew to perhaps move the gun 1d6,[terrain modifiers applying], and using up all their
initiative to do this? Of course I'm talking of wheeled weapons and
not the 88 and other big artillery. The reason for this is that our
troops usually have pretty "light" AT guns, PAK 35, the para pak 75
etc. and often no tow except mule and man historically.
Or should we consider them like the support weapons with the Big Man having to move them? And perhaps the larger PAKS, 6 and 17 pounders
using the above with a d4? I'd be interested on your thoughts.
Hope the Scotts were victorious over the Hitler Jugend and thanks again for your time. -Steve
In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke"
<richardclarkerli@y...> wrote:
Steve
Did you get things right? Well, you had fun, so yes.
Don't worry about your yanks failing, you will certainly find that the Brits you are painting will pull them out of the proverbial.
They turn up late and can't even capture a hedge;-D
As a whole I would say you picked a good first time scenario, and
just concentrating on the basics of fire and movement is probably an
ideal primer. Nice to see that you were happy to add an idea or two
of your own, the extra AT card for the Panthers is something that
I have never done for tanks, although if it had been
jagdpanzers/hetzers/tank killers I would have done it as a matter of
course. As your panthers were clearly on the defensive then I think
you made a good decision.
Regarding the extra US Armour Move card I would agree with you, this
is an infantry attack with tanks operating in a close support
role, so you did right not to include one. That has to be scenario driven
it depends who is supporting who, which can often be a moot
point.
Glad you liked the initiative dice, I feel they make the system
easy
to use, and you don't get this bollocks about "can I move and
fire" or I've only used two thirds of my move, can I fire at one third
effect", it's all incorporated in the initiative dice.
Sounds like you had Ernst Barkmann in those Panthers! But yes, I
make snap shots two levels harder, it has to be significant or there
ain't any point in aiming. Also glad you liked the crew morale
for damaged tanks. I haven't got the stats with me, but I have just been
reading about operation Epsom. One unit went in to action and
lost about fifteen tanks in half an hour. How may crew men were
lost? Three, with half a dozen wounded. Most tanks were abandoned due
to a
technical issue rather than blown to smithereens. Indeed the Tiger tank at Bovington tank museum in the UK was abandoned by its crew
when its turret jammed. As such the tank could have continued to
function in an SP gun role, and in most sets of rules it would have,
but in reality the crew would feel unhappy about this, and would
quickly bail out.
Regarding your bazooka man. Yes he steps out with his first
dice, yes he snap fires with his second, yes he moves back to cover
with his third. But again we have an issue here where the man is
making a
perfect manoeuvre, which he wouldn't in real life. So, what we
actually do is we roll to move out, and he moves that full distance in inches. Two he fires, three he rolls again to move back. The
problem being that if he rolls a 4 with his first dice, and a 1 with
his third, then he ain't back in cover. Whoops! C'est la
guerre, as
our cheese eating friends say.
Big Men. No wonder you liked it, your lot were damnably close to
supermen! I do think that in certain situations you overused them.
Let me clarify.
Big men on their own can do several things. They can move (as is go
from one place to another) in which case they use the number of dice
appropriate for their troop type, generally 3 (a maximum for movement
anyway). They can spot, in which case they get one go and can do
nowt else. They can act as artillery spotters, in which case they automatically do their stuff and nothing else.
Big men with a unit, or within 4" if we go with the shouting bit, can
get that specific single squad to take its turn now rather than later
when its card comes out (if it does). There is some flexibility for
more senior Big Men to do this with multiple squads when not in
the battle line, but as a generality we are looking here at when
under fire. If the unit is firing the Bog Man does add his dice, with any
+ or - to the firing, as this fire is considered to be better co-
ordinated.
Big Men do NOT jump on vehicles, tell them to blast those chaps, then
jump off, run across the road, rally a unit, put on a funny hat, call
in an air strike and then provide co-ordinates to a battery for close
support. HOWEVER, in your early games they can if it makes it
more fun. I have to admit that in the early stages of working through the
mechanisms we were using the Charlie Don't Surf rules as a vehicle.
We had a US Cavalry Platoon commanded by Lieutenant Rock Gonads
and Sergeant Biff Stone, two of the silliest names we could think
of. We
did let them do just what you guys did on Sunday, and it was highly amusing watching these two All-American superheroes zapping
Charlie in a fashion very much in the vein of the Air Cav chap in Apocalypse
Now. Fun as it was, it wasn't very real, so we set the
limitation described above. I now specify which Big Men are infantry, tank, AT
or whatever. If you get a Big Man abandoning a damaged tank it
is entirely reasonable for him to take command of another tank, this
happened often in real life. Think about his rank here,
however. A
sergeant is not going to turf out anyone more senior than him.
Your use of dice for movement in two lots of bad terrain was fine. This is one of those areas where I don't have an opinion, you
need to
decide just how bad the terrain is that you are representing. One man's copse is another man's shrubbery. Any yes, you are correct
that there are other officers and NCOs in the sections who are
not represented but are indeed there. They just ain't large enough
characters to be "big men".
Can you officers shout? If you can, they can. However I would limit
this to within 4" with 15mm figures, 6" with 20mm/25mm. I hear what
you are saying about assuming that the officer saw the movement
in the woods, and for your early games feel free to leave spotting out.
One thing to remember when you do introduce spotting, is that
it's not just about noticing some bugger's over there, it's about
identifying if its friend or foe, and then correctly estimating
the range and relaying that information to your men. Your sections
can use their dice to spot as well as your big men.
Your question regarding blocking of firing by friendly unit. The
point you make about all actions being simultaneous is not
entirely correct. Turns have no set length in IABSN, I reckon that a
minute is about correct, although in some historical scenarios I tend to
stretch this to two minutes for staggered arrival times. If you have
units A and B next to each other and you want to use A to
suppress an
enemy to the front and then B to charge in with the bayonet then it would work as follows in practice.
Unit B comes up first! Bloody typical, but it's a damned fact
that nothing works as planned. So you have a choice. B charges forward,
then A's fire is blocked (presuming that I cannot see the
target), or
you change that to use B to fire and A can then charge in if they get
a go. You have to keep your plans loose and general in the game in order to get them to work. If A hasn't had a chance to fire
first that means that they've got their heads down, or their vision is
obscured by smoke, or whatever. Having said all of that if you felt
that unit B only partially blocked the target then you did
exactly the right thing in dropping to a longer range chart.
I agree completely about co-axial MGs, no they can't both fire.
I would also give the hull MG its own firing dice (but firing only, not
spotting), as I would with turreted MGs on the big early war
Soviet/British tanks (not to mention the German Propaganda tank,
of which I have a lovely one by SDD, now marketed by Stronghold
Miniatures of Scotland, who have done sterling service (no Scots pun
intended)). Yes the MG fire is damnably ineffective if the tank
is moving, it was. However even if no hits are being registered it can
fire, this reduces the chance of anything hitting it (the enemy
is under fire, therefore his ability to aim is reduced).
Digging in. Hmmmmm. I personally don't like digging in during
the game, as mentioned the turns are very short, and this is the
front line. Whilst ones natural desire for self preservation would see you
desirous of a trench, when you know the enemy is a hundred yards away
you ain't going to get the gardening equipment out, you're going
to lie down and keep quiet! Nevertheless I quite happily start the game
with one side or t'other in positions, so you can use your toys
there. Having said that you can simply ignore me and do what you
like, and if you did so then no digging in should give more than
minimal scrape cover. Not that I said that, 'cos I don't think
you should do it.
Glad you enjoyed your game. I am trying to finish the Winter War
booklet next, and the desert war is being worked on - admittedly with
some problems (apologies to those who I promised this one next to).
One of our playtest group is looking at Japs as we speak, I'll
see him tonight and ask him. I will sort out Russian armour for you
as soon as I can. Charlie Don't Surf is on the back burner as I'm
trying to get one projects done at a time. Interestingly this
game DOES have medics, in fact they are key to the Vietnam game
experience. If anyone wants a free email set of the draft for these
to play around with then just let me know, they are copywrite and the
system is very much as in IABSM so don't publish the bloody
things yourself. We won't sue, Nick'll come round and sit on your
house.
Cheers
Richard
--- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours"
<combatcolours@h...> wrote:
First off, thanks to Richard Clarke and Nick Skinner for
writing IABSM which my group thoroughly enjoyed playing last Sunday.
We played on a 6'X4' table with 2 American platoons of 3
sections
of 8 men each, supported by 2 HMG's and 2 platoons of Shermans,
[ 1
with 3 tanks and another with 4 including one with a dozer
blade],
vs. 2 German platoons, one with 3 sections of 8 men and one
understrength with 2 sections of 8; each section had a
panzerfaust
and both were supported by 3 tripod MMG's and a Panther. The terrain
was boccage with ripe high fields, the hedgerows blocked line
of sight until the unit went up next to it. Since this was a
playtest
to
try out the moving and shooting mechanics we did not use
Air/Artillery or the spotting rules, preferring to get used to the
open kriegspiel of the shooting before tackling the even freeer
spotting!
AS this was just a playtest there were no objectives or
victory conditions save beating up each other's troops. :P
The Following are thoughts on different sections of the rules
in
regards to the game:
1] THE CARDS: I gave both sides MMG EXTRA FIRE cards and I
gave the
Germans a EXTRA AT FIRE card for the Panther but balanced it
with a
OUT OF PETROL card. Everyone was fine with the cards, as I've
mentioned before we've played Storm Of Steel which uses a
similar card deck to activate units. The real fun was the TEABREAK card which
caused all kind of bedlam. The second platoon of Shermans
stopped moving for 5 turns due to the TEABREAK card popping up! In hindsight
I should have put a EXTRA US ARMOUR MOVE card in, but then I figured
the attack was not a tank assault,needing the movement, but a
infantry assault with tank support; whose luck wasn't in the cards! :P
2] INITIATIVE DICE: The gamers really liked using the dice;
especially when their unit's card came up to reserve them to
fire later in the turn ...guess what the Germans in the hedgerows
were doing! We had a player, Johann,new to WW2 gaming who took a
little
while to get used to doing different actions with the dice but
by the
end he was a real pro. The procedures that Richard posted
earlier for
firing AT guns,aiming, relaying etc.with the initiative dice worked
well ; Mike , the Panther commander quickly worked out
the 'HITTING
THE TARGET' procedure and the importance of 'aiming' and then rolled
like it didn't matter, 10-11's against my poor Shermans.
Most shots were aimed but there were some SNAP SHOTS which
I believe I did wrong, we only made the shot harder by '1' where
in one
of Richard's recent postings,[which I forgot to bring along],
he mentioned the SNAP SHOT was '-2', 2 levels harder?
The Shermans were toasted pretty quickly by the Panther,
Mike was
rolling hot, even when I managed once to roll 4 '5-6'
saves/nullifications, Mike would beat it by 3,BOOM! :P One Sherman
did recieve a 2 hit 'Main gun out of Action' result so we got
to use
the Damage to AFV's section/morale. There was approval for the fact
that crews needed to do things ,[good rolls], to keep their
tank operational and not bail out. The Dozer Sherman got a extra
dice to
it's armour dice/number to account for the blade in front.
2A] INITIATIVE MOVEMENT: The AFV Boccage crossing procedure
from previous posts worked well and we decided that infantry would
treat
the boccage as 'heavy terrain' [-3 pips per dice], and that
seemed
right for everyone. We discussed the posts where I asked about
whether a unit could move-spot/fire-move with it's 3 initiative dice.
We decided that was fine for recce units spotting and perhaps a
bazooka man waiting behind a corner for the oncoming tank,[step
out
onto the street-fire-move back to cover]. In the beginning we
let players roll one dice at a time ,being cautious as they entered each
terrain feature. Johann moved one infantry section like this: troops
in field, roll 1 d6 minus 1 pip for terrain - leaves field then
decides to cross Boccage hedge in front of him, rolls last 2
dice with minus 3 pips per dice and just gets up to the hedge. By
the end
of the game we were doing the movements like this: Johann would roll
all 3 dice at once with a minus 4 pips per dice for field and hedge
penalties. Our reasoning for this was thus: even though there
are BIG
MEN, each squad/section would have a NCO pushing them along,although
not represented in the game. He wouldn't be saying...'let's
cross this field, then maybe that hedge', he would be saying 'we got orders
to move out past that hedge!'So we have the player roll the
number
of
dice he would need to complete the 'order' taking all the
terrain penalties the section would meet along the way and putting them into
that roll; if the squad doesn't make it then that just adds to
the
lack of cohesion and fog of war in the game...the squad didn't
get
to
where I wanted it to!..and that's why you have the BIG MEN.
3] BIG MEN : Probably the coolest part of the game! The
Germans had
a Captain, Lieutenant and Sgt., the Yanks has a Captain and Sgt.
The Germans were really able to use their BIG MEN to great
advantage. I had my Shermans coming up the road,[sigh], when Mike's
LT. card came up. He asked if he could use him to activate the
Panther? Sure, why not![ I'm a generous opponent!:P]. He used
one of
the Lt's initiative dice to move up to the tank and a second to order
the tank to fire at the on coming Sherman's. Mike used the panther's
first initiative dice to fire and KO'd the lead Sherman, he
then decided to save the other 2 for when the Panther's card would
come
up.The Lt. then used his last initiative dice to climb down and move
to the infantry section near the tank.
Lance commanded the larger German platoon and had placed one
section and a MMG on the roadside of a hedgerow looking out
over the
fields and then the second section behind the opposite facing hedge,a
double defensive line, with the captain in between on the
roadway. When the Captain's card came up, Lance used it to move the
MMG to
a
better position at the far end of the hedge. Even though the figure
was 3-4 inches away from the support weapon we decided that the
captain would be able to yell his order to the MMG crew and
point to
the new position on the hedgerow; the support team then used
the captain's initiative dice to move there. Later Johann moved a section
thru some woods in front of the MMG's new position , using the wood's
to block the German's view and get some bonus cover,[did I
mention
that this was Johann's first WW2 game!].The Captain's card
popped up
again and Lance asked if he could use him to get the MMG to
fire. As
I mentioned we weren't using the spotting rules but since it
was a
BIG MAN, we figured he would notice 'movement' in the woods
thru his
binoculars. Since the MMG team was now 6" away from the Captain and
he wanted to 'direct the MMG's fire', Lance first rolled 2 initiative
dice to get the Captain there and the last to order it to fire
on that woodline. The MMG then used it's fire dice. When the
German Support card popped up later, the MMG team was 'out of bullets!'
We didn't have much luck using the BIG MEN to take off
wounds, the
GErmans regularly rolled 'DEAD' while the Yanks rolled 'Near Miss';
the German belt buckle does say 'God is With Us':(.
4] FIRING: We thought the Fire Effect chart worked well, everyone
had no problem adjusting to the 'Great-Poor columns.Although
this gaming bunch was very easy going about 'talking out' the shot
so we
were in agreement, that's why we had so much fun rationalising
the
BIG MEN'S actions. I can see that other 'intense' gamers might
have
problems accepting it but then that's why there's Command
Decision
and Battleground!
We did have a question about troops blocking others from firing.
Since this is a card driven activation of unit's we felt that
in certain situations units could fire thru other friendly units
since
their movement is sort of simultaneous in the turn, at least we
think :p. Especially the American Infantry and tanks that are
advancing that turn. We decided to let them fire but at the
greater
range band and 'poor'. If the unit's are part of an established line,
like lance's sections mentioned above, then no; Tanks would be
shooting at 'nearly bloody impossible'.Is this OK, or bull?
We also had the Shermans using their main guns to fire
direct HE
at the German infantry. This worked well with a little
scrambling to
find the appropriate sections to use. We did this since the tank's
MG's,[closed armour mg's],are ineffective in the assault, the
movement dice cancelling out the mg's dice. But no complaints
since
we think it's a very accurate representation of the real thing!
We do have a question though about firing the tank's bow and co- axial
mg's. First I usually don't allow the co-axial to fire if the
main
gun is being fired since it's the gunner operating both! We do
want
to know if it's alright to allow the bow mg to fire on the same dice
as the main gun since it's a different crewman firing it? Or do
you
want us to use a extra initiative dice to shoot the bow mg?
This is
also of interest to me since I game Barbarossa with all those
multi-
turreted Soviet tanks!
The game ended up as a bloodbath for the Americans. No tears
for
me since I'm building a British force for the Normandy Campaign next
year! As always Germans in the Boccage are a hard nut to crack !
There were two suggestions for 'additions' to the ruleset.
First,
would it be possible to have sections 'dig-in' or fortify a building?
In other games I've allowed this, plus I have really nifty
foxhole
markers. Lance brought this up after his one section remained
in a
field for quite a few turns guarding the flank. Our proposal is this:
as long as there are no enemy infantry units in close range and your
section has not been shot at then they can use all their
initiative
dice to 'dig-in' making them harder to hit.
The second proposal is to add medics; once again we've got
cool figs
of these. They would get their own card like BIG MEN but only
be able
to take away wounds with a d4. They would have to be in base contact
with the section to do this. This would also be more of a scenario
driven option.
Once again everyone had a great time! Johann is hooked and
has e-
mailed me about what troops he should get; he likes British and Finns-
he was quite excited about the future Winter War supplement.
Lance
has Japanese to face my Chindits,[a project to be continued
after the
Normandy anniversary games], so he wants to know"...when they going
to do Japs!". I'm interested in the Winter War because of my
Barbarossa Russians ; could we please,pretty please, have a T-
35, KV
I & II's, and a T-34 besides the T-26's and 28's in the supplement
list, With the German vehicles in the 'Sieg im Westen'
supplement I
would be set! We all are quite interested in 'Charlie Don't
surf' as
well and are looking forward to it's release.
I'll be awaiting feedback and suggestions about what we did, right
and wrong.And Ill be bugging Richard and the forum for awhile
as we
now add Spotting and other goodies! There is a regional
convention
in St. Louis in November. It's held over a weekend with 100-200
people playing mostly historical games. I asked the gang if I should
run IABSM and they said yes! I then asked whether I should set
up a
game for Saturday or Sunday and Mike replied," Why not both."
That pretty much sums up what we thought of "I Ain't Been
Shot, Mum!" Thanks again, Steve
|
Re: first playtest game-very long post!
Hi Richard, Thanks for your quick response. Actually the Panther got the extra fire card because in fact we didn't have a AT gun model for the game :P ,and I did figure it would be a 'pillbox' on the defensive and added the 'Lack of Petrol' card to make sure! That card worked out well, after mauling my tanks Mike was considering redeploying to get after Johann's tanks who were 'stuck in the mud' with all those Tea Breaks. Well the Petrol card popped up and he rolled a '6', nothing left but to survey the death and destruction he caused. With the bazooka man example we figured that there could be a 'bad roll' with the second movement dice, that's why we like the possibilities in the initiative dice. The only 'Great shot' was against my HMG that didn't have enough movement to get to cover, leaving him wide open to a German rifle section, ouch! In your reply you mention that the Bazooka would only get a snap-fire, is this because he, as a infantry AT, moved first? Do infantry AT only get their 'aimed' first shot if stationary? We let the Shermans who moved get their aimed first shot since we noticed that the 'firer moved this turn' negated the plus for the aimed shot,noting from the 2 pounder example that 'aimed' is a plus one level,[ from 'hard' to 'not bad'];So even though moving messes up your aimed shot it still keeps the 'aimed first shot' rule in place.. Also we allowed infantry not to use all their movement rolled, is this correct? Now that you state that BIG MEN should be placed in their appropriate 'service' branch, I can now see where we went wrong! :P Indeed, if the Panther had BIG MAN Barkmann on board then he would activate the tanks initiative dice on his card, he wouldn't be able to order infantry, yell at them,yes , but not order them. The American Captain was used to move an entire platoon not being shot at, but we must make sure he is within 4" of the sections to do this, correct? Sgts weren't a problem since each was assigned to a section. So let me see if I've got my ducks in a row: 1] Any infantry section will only activate on a Big Man's card if he is part of the section OR within 4",[and line of sight]. 2] a Big Man must be in contact when his card comes up to perform #1. The Big Man cannot use initiative to 'walk up and join and then activate them. He would have to wait for his next card to activate the unit. 3] Big Men,[officers], can either spot, move, activate[in contact] , observe artillery rounds, take away wounds[in contact], but only one of these per card. Sgts can move,activate [in contact], and take away wounds[in contact]. 4]To activate tanks/ AT guns the Big Man must be assigned to them at the beginning of the game. Support weapons: in the game we allowed Big men to move into contact and activate the weapons for movement. From the above we would now move a Big Man into contact,[taking personal command] and then await his next card to move the weapon? We did like the fact that Big Men were needed to move/redeploy the weapons as in real life. Fully understand the response about blocking line of fire; this should make the games a little more tactical! BOW MG's and other tank MG's: If I understand correctly each MG gets their own initiative dice to only fire with. So if a tank is stationary then the bow MG would fire 3 times with 2d6 each shot. This will make the tanks a little nastier. Also, even though the movement negates the MG fire dice, you still assume that it shot at the target to give them minuses for their fire, I like that alot! Shame about 'digging in', I have a friend who plays Paras and used to love digging in and fortifying towns! Oh well,i'll placate him with the PIAT with the 90mm HE! :P Also beside actual scenario driven positions I might let sides roll to see which of their troops dug-in before the start of less formal 'pick-up' games. One other item that was brought up but I forgot to mention is crews prolonging their AT guns.Would you allow the crew to perhaps move the gun 1d6,[terrain modifiers applying], and using up all their initiative to do this? Of course I'm talking of wheeled weapons and not the 88 and other big artillery. The reason for this is that our troops usually have pretty "light" AT guns, PAK 35, the para pak 75 etc. and often no tow except mule and man historically. Or should we consider them like the support weapons with the Big Man having to move them? And perhaps the larger PAKS, 6 and 17 pounders using the above with a d4? I'd be interested on your thoughts. Hope the Scotts were victorious over the Hitler Jugend and thanks again for your time. -Steve In Toofatlardies@..., "Richard Clarke" <richardclarkerli@y...> wrote: Steve
Did you get things right? Well, you had fun, so yes.
Don't worry about your yanks failing, you will certainly find that
the Brits you are painting will pull them out of the proverbial.
They turn up late and can't even capture a hedge;-D
As a whole I would say you picked a good first time scenario, and
just concentrating on the basics of fire and movement is probably an ideal primer. Nice to see that you were happy to add an idea or two of your own, the extra AT card for the Panthers is something that I
have never done for tanks, although if it had been
jagdpanzers/hetzers/tank killers I would have done it as a matter of course. As your panthers were clearly on the defensive then I think you made a good decision.
Regarding the extra US Armour Move card I would agree with you, this is an infantry attack with tanks operating in a close support role,
so you did right not to include one. That has to be scenario driven it depends who is supporting who, which can often be a moot point.
Glad you liked the initiative dice, I feel they make the system easy to use, and you don't get this bollocks about "can I move and fire"
or I've only used two thirds of my move, can I fire at one third
effect", it's all incorporated in the initiative dice.
Sounds like you had Ernst Barkmann in those Panthers! But yes, I
make snap shots two levels harder, it has to be significant or there ain't any point in aiming. Also glad you liked the crew morale for
damaged tanks. I haven't got the stats with me, but I have just been reading about operation Epsom. One unit went in to action and lost
about fifteen tanks in half an hour. How may crew men were lost?
Three, with half a dozen wounded. Most tanks were abandoned due to a technical issue rather than blown to smithereens. Indeed the Tiger
tank at Bovington tank museum in the UK was abandoned by its crew
when its turret jammed. As such the tank could have continued to
function in an SP gun role, and in most sets of rules it would have, but in reality the crew would feel unhappy about this, and would
quickly bail out.
Regarding your bazooka man. Yes he steps out with his first dice,
yes he snap fires with his second, yes he moves back to cover with
his third. But again we have an issue here where the man is making a perfect manoeuvre, which he wouldn't in real life. So, what we
actually do is we roll to move out, and he moves that full distance
in inches. Two he fires, three he rolls again to move back. The
problem being that if he rolls a 4 with his first dice, and a 1 with his third, then he ain't back in cover. Whoops! C'est la guerre, as our cheese eating friends say.
Big Men. No wonder you liked it, your lot were damnably close to
supermen! I do think that in certain situations you overused them. Let me clarify.
Big men on their own can do several things. They can move (as is go from one place to another) in which case they use the number of dice appropriate for their troop type, generally 3 (a maximum for movement anyway). They can spot, in which case they get one go and can do
nowt else. They can act as artillery spotters, in which case they
automatically do their stuff and nothing else.
Big men with a unit, or within 4" if we go with the shouting bit, can get that specific single squad to take its turn now rather than later when its card comes out (if it does). There is some flexibility for more senior Big Men to do this with multiple squads when not in the
battle line, but as a generality we are looking here at when under
fire. If the unit is firing the Bog Man does add his dice, with any + or - to the firing, as this fire is considered to be better co-
ordinated.
Big Men do NOT jump on vehicles, tell them to blast those chaps, then jump off, run across the road, rally a unit, put on a funny hat, call in an air strike and then provide co-ordinates to a battery for close support. HOWEVER, in your early games they can if it makes it more
fun. I have to admit that in the early stages of working through the mechanisms we were using the Charlie Don't Surf rules as a vehicle. We had a US Cavalry Platoon commanded by Lieutenant Rock Gonads and
Sergeant Biff Stone, two of the silliest names we could think of. We did let them do just what you guys did on Sunday, and it was highly
amusing watching these two All-American superheroes zapping Charlie
in a fashion very much in the vein of the Air Cav chap in Apocalypse Now. Fun as it was, it wasn't very real, so we set the limitation
described above. I now specify which Big Men are infantry, tank, AT or whatever. If you get a Big Man abandoning a damaged tank it is
entirely reasonable for him to take command of another tank, this
happened often in real life. Think about his rank here, however. A sergeant is not going to turf out anyone more senior than him.
Your use of dice for movement in two lots of bad terrain was fine.
This is one of those areas where I don't have an opinion, you need to decide just how bad the terrain is that you are representing. One
man's copse is another man's shrubbery. Any yes, you are correct
that there are other officers and NCOs in the sections who are not
represented but are indeed there. They just ain't large enough
characters to be "big men".
Can you officers shout? If you can, they can. However I would limit this to within 4" with 15mm figures, 6" with 20mm/25mm. I hear what you are saying about assuming that the officer saw the movement in
the woods, and for your early games feel free to leave spotting out. One thing to remember when you do introduce spotting, is that it's
not just about noticing some bugger's over there, it's about
identifying if its friend or foe, and then correctly estimating the
range and relaying that information to your men. Your sections can
use their dice to spot as well as your big men.
Your question regarding blocking of firing by friendly unit. The
point you make about all actions being simultaneous is not entirely
correct. Turns have no set length in IABSN, I reckon that a minute
is about correct, although in some historical scenarios I tend to
stretch this to two minutes for staggered arrival times. If you have units A and B next to each other and you want to use A to suppress an enemy to the front and then B to charge in with the bayonet then it
would work as follows in practice.
Unit B comes up first! Bloody typical, but it's a damned fact that
nothing works as planned. So you have a choice. B charges forward, then A's fire is blocked (presuming that I cannot see the target), or you change that to use B to fire and A can then charge in if they get a go. You have to keep your plans loose and general in the game in
order to get them to work. If A hasn't had a chance to fire first
that means that they've got their heads down, or their vision is
obscured by smoke, or whatever. Having said all of that if you felt that unit B only partially blocked the target then you did exactly
the right thing in dropping to a longer range chart.
I agree completely about co-axial MGs, no they can't both fire. I
would also give the hull MG its own firing dice (but firing only, not spotting), as I would with turreted MGs on the big early war
Soviet/British tanks (not to mention the German Propaganda tank, of
which I have a lovely one by SDD, now marketed by Stronghold
Miniatures of Scotland, who have done sterling service (no Scots pun intended)). Yes the MG fire is damnably ineffective if the tank is
moving, it was. However even if no hits are being registered it can fire, this reduces the chance of anything hitting it (the enemy is
under fire, therefore his ability to aim is reduced).
Digging in. Hmmmmm. I personally don't like digging in during the
game, as mentioned the turns are very short, and this is the front
line. Whilst ones natural desire for self preservation would see you desirous of a trench, when you know the enemy is a hundred yards away you ain't going to get the gardening equipment out, you're going to
lie down and keep quiet! Nevertheless I quite happily start the game with one side or t'other in positions, so you can use your toys
there. Having said that you can simply ignore me and do what you
like, and if you did so then no digging in should give more than
minimal scrape cover. Not that I said that, 'cos I don't think you
should do it.
Glad you enjoyed your game. I am trying to finish the Winter War
booklet next, and the desert war is being worked on - admittedly with some problems (apologies to those who I promised this one next to). One of our playtest group is looking at Japs as we speak, I'll see
him tonight and ask him. I will sort out Russian armour for you as
soon as I can. Charlie Don't Surf is on the back burner as I'm
trying to get one projects done at a time. Interestingly this game
DOES have medics, in fact they are key to the Vietnam game
experience. If anyone wants a free email set of the draft for these to play around with then just let me know, they are copywrite and the system is very much as in IABSM so don't publish the bloody things
yourself. We won't sue, Nick'll come round and sit on your house.
Cheers
Richard
--- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours"
<combatcolours@h...> wrote:
First off, thanks to Richard Clarke and Nick Skinner for writing
IABSM which my group thoroughly enjoyed playing last Sunday.
We played on a 6'X4' table with 2 American platoons of 3 sections of 8 men each, supported by 2 HMG's and 2 platoons of Shermans,[
1 with 3 tanks and another with 4 including one with a dozer
blade], vs. 2 German platoons, one with 3 sections of 8 men and one
understrength with 2 sections of 8; each section had a
panzerfaust and both were supported by 3 tripod MMG's and a Panther. The terrain
was boccage with ripe high fields, the hedgerows blocked line of
sight until the unit went up next to it. Since this was a
playtest to
try out the moving and shooting mechanics we did not use
Air/Artillery or the spotting rules, preferring to get used to the open kriegspiel of the shooting before tackling the even freeer
spotting!
AS this was just a playtest there were no objectives or victory
conditions save beating up each other's troops. :P
The Following are thoughts on different sections of the rules
in regards to the game:
1] THE CARDS: I gave both sides MMG EXTRA FIRE cards and I gave the
Germans a EXTRA AT FIRE card for the Panther but balanced it with
a OUT OF PETROL card. Everyone was fine with the cards, as I've
mentioned before we've played Storm Of Steel which uses a similar
card deck to activate units. The real fun was the TEABREAK card which
caused all kind of bedlam. The second platoon of Shermans stopped
moving for 5 turns due to the TEABREAK card popping up! In hindsight
I should have put a EXTRA US ARMOUR MOVE card in, but then I figured
the attack was not a tank assault,needing the movement, but a
infantry assault with tank support; whose luck wasn't in the cards! :P
2] INITIATIVE DICE: The gamers really liked using the dice;
especially when their unit's card came up to reserve them to fire
later in the turn ...guess what the Germans in the hedgerows were
doing! We had a player, Johann,new to WW2 gaming who took a
little while to get used to doing different actions with the dice but by the
end he was a real pro. The procedures that Richard posted earlier for
firing AT guns,aiming, relaying etc.with the initiative dice
worked well ; Mike , the Panther commander quickly worked out
the 'HITTING THE TARGET' procedure and the importance of 'aiming' and then rolled
like it didn't matter, 10-11's against my poor Shermans.
Most shots were aimed but there were some SNAP SHOTS which I
believe I did wrong, we only made the shot harder by '1' where in one
of Richard's recent postings,[which I forgot to bring along], he
mentioned the SNAP SHOT was '-2', 2 levels harder?
The Shermans were toasted pretty quickly by the Panther, Mike was
rolling hot, even when I managed once to roll 4 '5-6'
saves/nullifications, Mike would beat it by 3,BOOM! :P One
Sherman did recieve a 2 hit 'Main gun out of Action' result so we got to use
the Damage to AFV's section/morale. There was approval for the
fact that crews needed to do things ,[good rolls], to keep their tank
operational and not bail out. The Dozer Sherman got a extra dice
to it's armour dice/number to account for the blade in front.
2A] INITIATIVE MOVEMENT: The AFV Boccage crossing procedure from
previous posts worked well and we decided that infantry would
treat the boccage as 'heavy terrain' [-3 pips per dice], and that
seemed right for everyone. We discussed the posts where I asked about
whether a unit could move-spot/fire-move with it's 3 initiative dice.
We decided that was fine for recce units spotting and perhaps a
bazooka man waiting behind a corner for the oncoming tank,[step
out onto the street-fire-move back to cover]. In the beginning we let
players roll one dice at a time ,being cautious as they entered each
terrain feature. Johann moved one infantry section like this: troops
in field, roll 1 d6 minus 1 pip for terrain - leaves field then
decides to cross Boccage hedge in front of him, rolls last 2 dice
with minus 3 pips per dice and just gets up to the hedge. By the end
of the game we were doing the movements like this: Johann would roll
all 3 dice at once with a minus 4 pips per dice for field and
hedge penalties. Our reasoning for this was thus: even though there are BIG
MEN, each squad/section would have a NCO pushing them along,although
not represented in the game. He wouldn't be saying...'let's cross
this field, then maybe that hedge', he would be saying 'we got orders
to move out past that hedge!'So we have the player roll the
number of
dice he would need to complete the 'order' taking all the terrain
penalties the section would meet along the way and putting them into
that roll; if the squad doesn't make it then that just adds to the lack of cohesion and fog of war in the game...the squad didn't
get to
where I wanted it to!..and that's why you have the BIG MEN.
3] BIG MEN : Probably the coolest part of the game! The Germans had
a Captain, Lieutenant and Sgt., the Yanks has a Captain and Sgt.
The Germans were really able to use their BIG MEN to great
advantage. I had my Shermans coming up the road,[sigh], when Mike's LT. card came up. He asked if he could use him to activate the
Panther? Sure, why not![ I'm a generous opponent!:P]. He used one of
the Lt's initiative dice to move up to the tank and a second to order
the tank to fire at the on coming Sherman's. Mike used the panther's
first initiative dice to fire and KO'd the lead Sherman, he then
decided to save the other 2 for when the Panther's card would
come up.The Lt. then used his last initiative dice to climb down and move
to the infantry section near the tank.
Lance commanded the larger German platoon and had placed one
section and a MMG on the roadside of a hedgerow looking out over the
fields and then the second section behind the opposite facing hedge,a
double defensive line, with the captain in between on the roadway.
When the Captain's card came up, Lance used it to move the MMG
to a
better position at the far end of the hedge. Even though the figure was 3-4 inches away from the support weapon we decided that the
captain would be able to yell his order to the MMG crew and point to
the new position on the hedgerow; the support team then used the
captain's initiative dice to move there. Later Johann moved a section
thru some woods in front of the MMG's new position , using the wood's
to block the German's view and get some bonus cover,[did I
mention that this was Johann's first WW2 game!].The Captain's card popped up
again and Lance asked if he could use him to get the MMG to fire. As
I mentioned we weren't using the spotting rules but since it was
a BIG MAN, we figured he would notice 'movement' in the woods thru his
binoculars. Since the MMG team was now 6" away from the Captain
and he wanted to 'direct the MMG's fire', Lance first rolled 2 initiative
dice to get the Captain there and the last to order it to fire on
that woodline. The MMG then used it's fire dice. When the German
Support card popped up later, the MMG team was 'out of bullets!'
We didn't have much luck using the BIG MEN to take off wounds, the
GErmans regularly rolled 'DEAD' while the Yanks rolled 'Near
Miss'; the German belt buckle does say 'God is With Us':(.
4] FIRING: We thought the Fire Effect chart worked well, everyone
had no problem adjusting to the 'Great-Poor columns.Although this
gaming bunch was very easy going about 'talking out' the shot so
we were in agreement, that's why we had so much fun rationalising
the BIG MEN'S actions. I can see that other 'intense' gamers might
have problems accepting it but then that's why there's Command
Decision and Battleground!
We did have a question about troops blocking others from firing.
Since this is a card driven activation of unit's we felt that in
certain situations units could fire thru other friendly units
since their movement is sort of simultaneous in the turn, at least we
think :p. Especially the American Infantry and tanks that are
advancing that turn. We decided to let them fire but at the
greater range band and 'poor'. If the unit's are part of an established line,
like lance's sections mentioned above, then no; Tanks would be
shooting at 'nearly bloody impossible'.Is this OK, or bull?
We also had the Shermans using their main guns to fire direct
HE at the German infantry. This worked well with a little scrambling to
find the appropriate sections to use. We did this since the
tank's MG's,[closed armour mg's],are ineffective in the assault, the
movement dice cancelling out the mg's dice. But no complaints
since we think it's a very accurate representation of the real thing!
We do have a question though about firing the tank's bow and co- axial
mg's. First I usually don't allow the co-axial to fire if the
main gun is being fired since it's the gunner operating both! We do
want to know if it's alright to allow the bow mg to fire on the same dice
as the main gun since it's a different crewman firing it? Or do
you want us to use a extra initiative dice to shoot the bow mg? This
is also of interest to me since I game Barbarossa with all those
multi- turreted Soviet tanks!
The game ended up as a bloodbath for the Americans. No tears
for me since I'm building a British force for the Normandy Campaign next
year! As always Germans in the Boccage are a hard nut to crack !
There were two suggestions for 'additions' to the ruleset.
First, would it be possible to have sections 'dig-in' or fortify a building?
In other games I've allowed this, plus I have really nifty
foxhole markers. Lance brought this up after his one section remained in
a field for quite a few turns guarding the flank. Our proposal is this:
as long as there are no enemy infantry units in close range and your
section has not been shot at then they can use all their
initiative dice to 'dig-in' making them harder to hit.
The second proposal is to add medics; once again we've got cool figs
of these. They would get their own card like BIG MEN but only be able
to take away wounds with a d4. They would have to be in base contact
with the section to do this. This would also be more of a
scenario driven option.
Once again everyone had a great time! Johann is hooked and has
e- mailed me about what troops he should get; he likes British and Finns-
he was quite excited about the future Winter War supplement.
Lance has Japanese to face my Chindits,[a project to be continued after the
Normandy anniversary games], so he wants to know"...when they
going to do Japs!". I'm interested in the Winter War because of my
Barbarossa Russians ; could we please,pretty please, have a T-35, KV
I & II's, and a T-34 besides the T-26's and 28's in the
supplement list, With the German vehicles in the 'Sieg im Westen' supplement
I would be set! We all are quite interested in 'Charlie Don't surf' as
well and are looking forward to it's release.
I'll be awaiting feedback and suggestions about what we did, right
and wrong.And Ill be bugging Richard and the forum for awhile as
we now add Spotting and other goodies! There is a regional
convention in St. Louis in November. It's held over a weekend with 100-200
people playing mostly historical games. I asked the gang if I should
run IABSM and they said yes! I then asked whether I should set up
a game for Saturday or Sunday and Mike replied," Why not both."
That pretty much sums up what we thought of "I Ain't Been Shot,
Mum!" Thanks again, Steve
|
Re: first playtest game-very long post!
Steve Did you get things right? Well, you had fun, so yes. Don't worry about your yanks failing, you will certainly find that the Brits you are painting will pull them out of the proverbial. They turn up late and can't even capture a hedge;-D As a whole I would say you picked a good first time scenario, and just concentrating on the basics of fire and movement is probably an ideal primer. Nice to see that you were happy to add an idea or two of your own, the extra AT card for the Panthers is something that I have never done for tanks, although if it had been jagdpanzers/hetzers/tank killers I would have done it as a matter of course. As your panthers were clearly on the defensive then I think you made a good decision. Regarding the extra US Armour Move card I would agree with you, this is an infantry attack with tanks operating in a close support role, so you did right not to include one. That has to be scenario driven it depends who is supporting who, which can often be a moot point. Glad you liked the initiative dice, I feel they make the system easy to use, and you don't get this bollocks about "can I move and fire" or I've only used two thirds of my move, can I fire at one third effect", it's all incorporated in the initiative dice. Sounds like you had Ernst Barkmann in those Panthers! But yes, I make snap shots two levels harder, it has to be significant or there ain't any point in aiming. Also glad you liked the crew morale for damaged tanks. I haven't got the stats with me, but I have just been reading about operation Epsom. One unit went in to action and lost about fifteen tanks in half an hour. How may crew men were lost? Three, with half a dozen wounded. Most tanks were abandoned due to a technical issue rather than blown to smithereens. Indeed the Tiger tank at Bovington tank museum in the UK was abandoned by its crew when its turret jammed. As such the tank could have continued to function in an SP gun role, and in most sets of rules it would have, but in reality the crew would feel unhappy about this, and would quickly bail out. Regarding your bazooka man. Yes he steps out with his first dice, yes he snap fires with his second, yes he moves back to cover with his third. But again we have an issue here where the man is making a perfect manoeuvre, which he wouldn't in real life. So, what we actually do is we roll to move out, and he moves that full distance in inches. Two he fires, three he rolls again to move back. The problem being that if he rolls a 4 with his first dice, and a 1 with his third, then he ain't back in cover. Whoops! C'est la guerre, as our cheese eating friends say. Big Men. No wonder you liked it, your lot were damnably close to supermen! I do think that in certain situations you overused them. Let me clarify. Big men on their own can do several things. They can move (as is go from one place to another) in which case they use the number of dice appropriate for their troop type, generally 3 (a maximum for movement anyway). They can spot, in which case they get one go and can do nowt else. They can act as artillery spotters, in which case they automatically do their stuff and nothing else. Big men with a unit, or within 4" if we go with the shouting bit, can get that specific single squad to take its turn now rather than later when its card comes out (if it does). There is some flexibility for more senior Big Men to do this with multiple squads when not in the battle line, but as a generality we are looking here at when under fire. If the unit is firing the Bog Man does add his dice, with any + or - to the firing, as this fire is considered to be better co- ordinated. Big Men do NOT jump on vehicles, tell them to blast those chaps, then jump off, run across the road, rally a unit, put on a funny hat, call in an air strike and then provide co-ordinates to a battery for close support. HOWEVER, in your early games they can if it makes it more fun. I have to admit that in the early stages of working through the mechanisms we were using the Charlie Don't Surf rules as a vehicle. We had a US Cavalry Platoon commanded by Lieutenant Rock Gonads and Sergeant Biff Stone, two of the silliest names we could think of. We did let them do just what you guys did on Sunday, and it was highly amusing watching these two All-American superheroes zapping Charlie in a fashion very much in the vein of the Air Cav chap in Apocalypse Now. Fun as it was, it wasn't very real, so we set the limitation described above. I now specify which Big Men are infantry, tank, AT or whatever. If you get a Big Man abandoning a damaged tank it is entirely reasonable for him to take command of another tank, this happened often in real life. Think about his rank here, however. A sergeant is not going to turf out anyone more senior than him. Your use of dice for movement in two lots of bad terrain was fine. This is one of those areas where I don't have an opinion, you need to decide just how bad the terrain is that you are representing. One man's copse is another man's shrubbery. Any yes, you are correct that there are other officers and NCOs in the sections who are not represented but are indeed there. They just ain't large enough characters to be "big men". Can you officers shout? If you can, they can. However I would limit this to within 4" with 15mm figures, 6" with 20mm/25mm. I hear what you are saying about assuming that the officer saw the movement in the woods, and for your early games feel free to leave spotting out. One thing to remember when you do introduce spotting, is that it's not just about noticing some bugger's over there, it's about identifying if its friend or foe, and then correctly estimating the range and relaying that information to your men. Your sections can use their dice to spot as well as your big men. Your question regarding blocking of firing by friendly unit. The point you make about all actions being simultaneous is not entirely correct. Turns have no set length in IABSN, I reckon that a minute is about correct, although in some historical scenarios I tend to stretch this to two minutes for staggered arrival times. If you have units A and B next to each other and you want to use A to suppress an enemy to the front and then B to charge in with the bayonet then it would work as follows in practice. Unit B comes up first! Bloody typical, but it's a damned fact that nothing works as planned. So you have a choice. B charges forward, then A's fire is blocked (presuming that I cannot see the target), or you change that to use B to fire and A can then charge in if they get a go. You have to keep your plans loose and general in the game in order to get them to work. If A hasn't had a chance to fire first that means that they've got their heads down, or their vision is obscured by smoke, or whatever. Having said all of that if you felt that unit B only partially blocked the target then you did exactly the right thing in dropping to a longer range chart. I agree completely about co-axial MGs, no they can't both fire. I would also give the hull MG its own firing dice (but firing only, not spotting), as I would with turreted MGs on the big early war Soviet/British tanks (not to mention the German Propaganda tank, of which I have a lovely one by SDD, now marketed by Stronghold Miniatures of Scotland, who have done sterling service (no Scots pun intended)). Yes the MG fire is damnably ineffective if the tank is moving, it was. However even if no hits are being registered it can fire, this reduces the chance of anything hitting it (the enemy is under fire, therefore his ability to aim is reduced). Digging in. Hmmmmm. I personally don't like digging in during the game, as mentioned the turns are very short, and this is the front line. Whilst ones natural desire for self preservation would see you desirous of a trench, when you know the enemy is a hundred yards away you ain't going to get the gardening equipment out, you're going to lie down and keep quiet! Nevertheless I quite happily start the game with one side or t'other in positions, so you can use your toys there. Having said that you can simply ignore me and do what you like, and if you did so then no digging in should give more than minimal scrape cover. Not that I said that, 'cos I don't think you should do it. Glad you enjoyed your game. I am trying to finish the Winter War booklet next, and the desert war is being worked on - admittedly with some problems (apologies to those who I promised this one next to). One of our playtest group is looking at Japs as we speak, I'll see him tonight and ask him. I will sort out Russian armour for you as soon as I can. Charlie Don't Surf is on the back burner as I'm trying to get one projects done at a time. Interestingly this game DOES have medics, in fact they are key to the Vietnam game experience. If anyone wants a free email set of the draft for these to play around with then just let me know, they are copywrite and the system is very much as in IABSM so don't publish the bloody things yourself. We won't sue, Nick'll come round and sit on your house. Cheers Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: First off, thanks to Richard Clarke and Nick Skinner for writing
IABSM which my group thoroughly enjoyed playing last Sunday.
We played on a 6'X4' table with 2 American platoons of 3 sections
of 8 men each, supported by 2 HMG's and 2 platoons of Shermans,[ 1
with 3 tanks and another with 4 including one with a dozer blade],
vs. 2 German platoons, one with 3 sections of 8 men and one
understrength with 2 sections of 8; each section had a panzerfaust
and both were supported by 3 tripod MMG's and a Panther. The terrain was boccage with ripe high fields, the hedgerows blocked line of
sight until the unit went up next to it. Since this was a playtest to try out the moving and shooting mechanics we did not use
Air/Artillery or the spotting rules, preferring to get used to the
open kriegspiel of the shooting before tackling the even freeer
spotting!
AS this was just a playtest there were no objectives or victory
conditions save beating up each other's troops. :P
The Following are thoughts on different sections of the rules in
regards to the game:
1] THE CARDS: I gave both sides MMG EXTRA FIRE cards and I gave the Germans a EXTRA AT FIRE card for the Panther but balanced it with a
OUT OF PETROL card. Everyone was fine with the cards, as I've
mentioned before we've played Storm Of Steel which uses a similar
card deck to activate units. The real fun was the TEABREAK card which caused all kind of bedlam. The second platoon of Shermans stopped
moving for 5 turns due to the TEABREAK card popping up! In hindsight I should have put a EXTRA US ARMOUR MOVE card in, but then I figured the attack was not a tank assault,needing the movement, but a
infantry assault with tank support; whose luck wasn't in the cards! :P 2] INITIATIVE DICE: The gamers really liked using the dice;
especially when their unit's card came up to reserve them to fire
later in the turn ...guess what the Germans in the hedgerows were
doing! We had a player, Johann,new to WW2 gaming who took a little
while to get used to doing different actions with the dice but by the end he was a real pro. The procedures that Richard posted earlier for firing AT guns,aiming, relaying etc.with the initiative dice worked
well ; Mike , the Panther commander quickly worked out the 'HITTING
THE TARGET' procedure and the importance of 'aiming' and then rolled like it didn't matter, 10-11's against my poor Shermans.
Most shots were aimed but there were some SNAP SHOTS which I
believe I did wrong, we only made the shot harder by '1' where in one of Richard's recent postings,[which I forgot to bring along], he
mentioned the SNAP SHOT was '-2', 2 levels harder?
The Shermans were toasted pretty quickly by the Panther, Mike was rolling hot, even when I managed once to roll 4 '5-6'
saves/nullifications, Mike would beat it by 3,BOOM! :P One Sherman
did recieve a 2 hit 'Main gun out of Action' result so we got to use the Damage to AFV's section/morale. There was approval for the fact
that crews needed to do things ,[good rolls], to keep their tank
operational and not bail out. The Dozer Sherman got a extra dice to
it's armour dice/number to account for the blade in front.
2A] INITIATIVE MOVEMENT: The AFV Boccage crossing procedure from
previous posts worked well and we decided that infantry would treat
the boccage as 'heavy terrain' [-3 pips per dice], and that seemed
right for everyone. We discussed the posts where I asked about
whether a unit could move-spot/fire-move with it's 3 initiative dice. We decided that was fine for recce units spotting and perhaps a
bazooka man waiting behind a corner for the oncoming tank,[step out
onto the street-fire-move back to cover]. In the beginning we let
players roll one dice at a time ,being cautious as they entered each terrain feature. Johann moved one infantry section like this: troops in field, roll 1 d6 minus 1 pip for terrain - leaves field then
decides to cross Boccage hedge in front of him, rolls last 2 dice
with minus 3 pips per dice and just gets up to the hedge. By the end of the game we were doing the movements like this: Johann would roll all 3 dice at once with a minus 4 pips per dice for field and hedge
penalties. Our reasoning for this was thus: even though there are BIG MEN, each squad/section would have a NCO pushing them along,although not represented in the game. He wouldn't be saying...'let's cross
this field, then maybe that hedge', he would be saying 'we got orders to move out past that hedge!'So we have the player roll the number of dice he would need to complete the 'order' taking all the terrain
penalties the section would meet along the way and putting them into that roll; if the squad doesn't make it then that just adds to the
lack of cohesion and fog of war in the game...the squad didn't get to where I wanted it to!..and that's why you have the BIG MEN.
3] BIG MEN : Probably the coolest part of the game! The Germans had a Captain, Lieutenant and Sgt., the Yanks has a Captain and Sgt.
The Germans were really able to use their BIG MEN to great
advantage. I had my Shermans coming up the road,[sigh], when Mike's
LT. card came up. He asked if he could use him to activate the
Panther? Sure, why not![ I'm a generous opponent!:P]. He used one of the Lt's initiative dice to move up to the tank and a second to order the tank to fire at the on coming Sherman's. Mike used the panther's first initiative dice to fire and KO'd the lead Sherman, he then
decided to save the other 2 for when the Panther's card would come
up.The Lt. then used his last initiative dice to climb down and move to the infantry section near the tank.
Lance commanded the larger German platoon and had placed one
section and a MMG on the roadside of a hedgerow looking out over the fields and then the second section behind the opposite facing hedge,a double defensive line, with the captain in between on the roadway.
When the Captain's card came up, Lance used it to move the MMG to a better position at the far end of the hedge. Even though the figure
was 3-4 inches away from the support weapon we decided that the
captain would be able to yell his order to the MMG crew and point to the new position on the hedgerow; the support team then used the
captain's initiative dice to move there. Later Johann moved a section thru some woods in front of the MMG's new position , using the wood's to block the German's view and get some bonus cover,[did I mention
that this was Johann's first WW2 game!].The Captain's card popped up again and Lance asked if he could use him to get the MMG to fire. As I mentioned we weren't using the spotting rules but since it was a
BIG MAN, we figured he would notice 'movement' in the woods thru his binoculars. Since the MMG team was now 6" away from the Captain and
he wanted to 'direct the MMG's fire', Lance first rolled 2 initiative dice to get the Captain there and the last to order it to fire on
that woodline. The MMG then used it's fire dice. When the German
Support card popped up later, the MMG team was 'out of bullets!'
We didn't have much luck using the BIG MEN to take off wounds, the GErmans regularly rolled 'DEAD' while the Yanks rolled 'Near Miss';
the German belt buckle does say 'God is With Us':(.
4] FIRING: We thought the Fire Effect chart worked well, everyone had no problem adjusting to the 'Great-Poor columns.Although this
gaming bunch was very easy going about 'talking out' the shot so we
were in agreement, that's why we had so much fun rationalising the
BIG MEN'S actions. I can see that other 'intense' gamers might have
problems accepting it but then that's why there's Command Decision
and Battleground!
We did have a question about troops blocking others from firing. Since this is a card driven activation of unit's we felt that in
certain situations units could fire thru other friendly units since
their movement is sort of simultaneous in the turn, at least we
think :p. Especially the American Infantry and tanks that are
advancing that turn. We decided to let them fire but at the greater
range band and 'poor'. If the unit's are part of an established line, like lance's sections mentioned above, then no; Tanks would be
shooting at 'nearly bloody impossible'.Is this OK, or bull?
We also had the Shermans using their main guns to fire direct HE
at the German infantry. This worked well with a little scrambling to find the appropriate sections to use. We did this since the tank's
MG's,[closed armour mg's],are ineffective in the assault, the
movement dice cancelling out the mg's dice. But no complaints since
we think it's a very accurate representation of the real thing!
We do have a question though about firing the tank's bow and co- axial mg's. First I usually don't allow the co-axial to fire if the main
gun is being fired since it's the gunner operating both! We do want
to know if it's alright to allow the bow mg to fire on the same dice as the main gun since it's a different crewman firing it? Or do you
want us to use a extra initiative dice to shoot the bow mg? This is
also of interest to me since I game Barbarossa with all those multi-
turreted Soviet tanks!
The game ended up as a bloodbath for the Americans. No tears for
me since I'm building a British force for the Normandy Campaign next year! As always Germans in the Boccage are a hard nut to crack !
There were two suggestions for 'additions' to the ruleset. First,
would it be possible to have sections 'dig-in' or fortify a building? In other games I've allowed this, plus I have really nifty foxhole
markers. Lance brought this up after his one section remained in a
field for quite a few turns guarding the flank. Our proposal is this: as long as there are no enemy infantry units in close range and your section has not been shot at then they can use all their initiative
dice to 'dig-in' making them harder to hit.
The second proposal is to add medics; once again we've got cool figs of these. They would get their own card like BIG MEN but only be able to take away wounds with a d4. They would have to be in base contact with the section to do this. This would also be more of a scenario
driven option.
Once again everyone had a great time! Johann is hooked and has e-
mailed me about what troops he should get; he likes British and Finns- he was quite excited about the future Winter War supplement. Lance
has Japanese to face my Chindits,[a project to be continued after the Normandy anniversary games], so he wants to know"...when they going
to do Japs!". I'm interested in the Winter War because of my
Barbarossa Russians ; could we please,pretty please, have a T-35, KV I & II's, and a T-34 besides the T-26's and 28's in the supplement
list, With the German vehicles in the 'Sieg im Westen' supplement I
would be set! We all are quite interested in 'Charlie Don't surf' as well and are looking forward to it's release.
I'll be awaiting feedback and suggestions about what we did, right and wrong.And Ill be bugging Richard and the forum for awhile as we
now add Spotting and other goodies! There is a regional convention
in St. Louis in November. It's held over a weekend with 100-200
people playing mostly historical games. I asked the gang if I should run IABSM and they said yes! I then asked whether I should set up a
game for Saturday or Sunday and Mike replied," Why not both."
That pretty much sums up what we thought of "I Ain't Been Shot,
Mum!" Thanks again, Steve
|
first playtest game-very long post!
First off, thanks to Richard Clarke and Nick Skinner for writing
IABSM which my group thoroughly enjoyed playing last Sunday.
We played on a 6'X4' table with 2 American platoons of 3 sections
of 8 men each, supported by 2 HMG's and 2 platoons of Shermans,[ 1
with 3 tanks and another with 4 including one with a dozer blade],
vs. 2 German platoons, one with 3 sections of 8 men and one
understrength with 2 sections of 8; each section had a panzerfaust
and both were supported by 3 tripod MMG's and a Panther. The terrain
was boccage with ripe high fields, the hedgerows blocked line of
sight until the unit went up next to it. Since this was a playtest to
try out the moving and shooting mechanics we did not use
Air/Artillery or the spotting rules, preferring to get used to the
open kriegspiel of the shooting before tackling the even freeer
spotting!
AS this was just a playtest there were no objectives or victory
conditions save beating up each other's troops. :P
The Following are thoughts on different sections of the rules in
regards to the game:
1] THE CARDS: I gave both sides MMG EXTRA FIRE cards and I gave the
Germans a EXTRA AT FIRE card for the Panther but balanced it with a
OUT OF PETROL card. Everyone was fine with the cards, as I've
mentioned before we've played Storm Of Steel which uses a similar
card deck to activate units. The real fun was the TEABREAK card which
caused all kind of bedlam. The second platoon of Shermans stopped
moving for 5 turns due to the TEABREAK card popping up! In hindsight
I should have put a EXTRA US ARMOUR MOVE card in, but then I figured
the attack was not a tank assault,needing the movement, but a
infantry assault with tank support; whose luck wasn't in the cards! :P
2] INITIATIVE DICE: The gamers really liked using the dice;
especially when their unit's card came up to reserve them to fire
later in the turn ...guess what the Germans in the hedgerows were
doing! We had a player, Johann,new to WW2 gaming who took a little
while to get used to doing different actions with the dice but by the
end he was a real pro. The procedures that Richard posted earlier for
firing AT guns,aiming, relaying etc.with the initiative dice worked
well ; Mike , the Panther commander quickly worked out the 'HITTING
THE TARGET' procedure and the importance of 'aiming' and then rolled
like it didn't matter, 10-11's against my poor Shermans.
Most shots were aimed but there were some SNAP SHOTS which I
believe I did wrong, we only made the shot harder by '1' where in one
of Richard's recent postings,[which I forgot to bring along], he
mentioned the SNAP SHOT was '-2', 2 levels harder?
The Shermans were toasted pretty quickly by the Panther, Mike was
rolling hot, even when I managed once to roll 4 '5-6'
saves/nullifications, Mike would beat it by 3,BOOM! :P One Sherman
did recieve a 2 hit 'Main gun out of Action' result so we got to use
the Damage to AFV's section/morale. There was approval for the fact
that crews needed to do things ,[good rolls], to keep their tank
operational and not bail out. The Dozer Sherman got a extra dice to
it's armour dice/number to account for the blade in front.
2A] INITIATIVE MOVEMENT: The AFV Boccage crossing procedure from
previous posts worked well and we decided that infantry would treat
the boccage as 'heavy terrain' [-3 pips per dice], and that seemed
right for everyone. We discussed the posts where I asked about
whether a unit could move-spot/fire-move with it's 3 initiative dice.
We decided that was fine for recce units spotting and perhaps a
bazooka man waiting behind a corner for the oncoming tank,[step out
onto the street-fire-move back to cover]. In the beginning we let
players roll one dice at a time ,being cautious as they entered each
terrain feature. Johann moved one infantry section like this: troops
in field, roll 1 d6 minus 1 pip for terrain - leaves field then
decides to cross Boccage hedge in front of him, rolls last 2 dice
with minus 3 pips per dice and just gets up to the hedge. By the end
of the game we were doing the movements like this: Johann would roll
all 3 dice at once with a minus 4 pips per dice for field and hedge
penalties. Our reasoning for this was thus: even though there are BIG
MEN, each squad/section would have a NCO pushing them along,although
not represented in the game. He wouldn't be saying...'let's cross
this field, then maybe that hedge', he would be saying 'we got orders
to move out past that hedge!'So we have the player roll the number of
dice he would need to complete the 'order' taking all the terrain
penalties the section would meet along the way and putting them into
that roll; if the squad doesn't make it then that just adds to the
lack of cohesion and fog of war in the game...the squad didn't get to
where I wanted it to!..and that's why you have the BIG MEN.
3] BIG MEN : Probably the coolest part of the game! The Germans had
a Captain, Lieutenant and Sgt., the Yanks has a Captain and Sgt.
The Germans were really able to use their BIG MEN to great
advantage. I had my Shermans coming up the road,[sigh], when Mike's
LT. card came up. He asked if he could use him to activate the
Panther? Sure, why not![ I'm a generous opponent!:P]. He used one of
the Lt's initiative dice to move up to the tank and a second to order
the tank to fire at the on coming Sherman's. Mike used the panther's
first initiative dice to fire and KO'd the lead Sherman, he then
decided to save the other 2 for when the Panther's card would come
up.The Lt. then used his last initiative dice to climb down and move
to the infantry section near the tank.
Lance commanded the larger German platoon and had placed one
section and a MMG on the roadside of a hedgerow looking out over the
fields and then the second section behind the opposite facing hedge,a
double defensive line, with the captain in between on the roadway.
When the Captain's card came up, Lance used it to move the MMG to a
better position at the far end of the hedge. Even though the figure
was 3-4 inches away from the support weapon we decided that the
captain would be able to yell his order to the MMG crew and point to
the new position on the hedgerow; the support team then used the
captain's initiative dice to move there. Later Johann moved a section
thru some woods in front of the MMG's new position , using the wood's
to block the German's view and get some bonus cover,[did I mention
that this was Johann's first WW2 game!].The Captain's card popped up
again and Lance asked if he could use him to get the MMG to fire. As
I mentioned we weren't using the spotting rules but since it was a
BIG MAN, we figured he would notice 'movement' in the woods thru his
binoculars. Since the MMG team was now 6" away from the Captain and
he wanted to 'direct the MMG's fire', Lance first rolled 2 initiative
dice to get the Captain there and the last to order it to fire on
that woodline. The MMG then used it's fire dice. When the German
Support card popped up later, the MMG team was 'out of bullets!'
We didn't have much luck using the BIG MEN to take off wounds, the
GErmans regularly rolled 'DEAD' while the Yanks rolled 'Near Miss';
the German belt buckle does say 'God is With Us':(.
4] FIRING: We thought the Fire Effect chart worked well, everyone
had no problem adjusting to the 'Great-Poor columns.Although this
gaming bunch was very easy going about 'talking out' the shot so we
were in agreement, that's why we had so much fun rationalising the
BIG MEN'S actions. I can see that other 'intense' gamers might have
problems accepting it but then that's why there's Command Decision
and Battleground!
We did have a question about troops blocking others from firing.
Since this is a card driven activation of unit's we felt that in
certain situations units could fire thru other friendly units since
their movement is sort of simultaneous in the turn, at least we
think :p. Especially the American Infantry and tanks that are
advancing that turn. We decided to let them fire but at the greater
range band and 'poor'. If the unit's are part of an established line,
like lance's sections mentioned above, then no; Tanks would be
shooting at 'nearly bloody impossible'.Is this OK, or bull?
We also had the Shermans using their main guns to fire direct HE
at the German infantry. This worked well with a little scrambling to
find the appropriate sections to use. We did this since the tank's
MG's,[closed armour mg's],are ineffective in the assault, the
movement dice cancelling out the mg's dice. But no complaints since
we think it's a very accurate representation of the real thing!
We do have a question though about firing the tank's bow and co-axial
mg's. First I usually don't allow the co-axial to fire if the main
gun is being fired since it's the gunner operating both! We do want
to know if it's alright to allow the bow mg to fire on the same dice
as the main gun since it's a different crewman firing it? Or do you
want us to use a extra initiative dice to shoot the bow mg? This is
also of interest to me since I game Barbarossa with all those multi-
turreted Soviet tanks!
The game ended up as a bloodbath for the Americans. No tears for
me since I'm building a British force for the Normandy Campaign next
year! As always Germans in the Boccage are a hard nut to crack !
There were two suggestions for 'additions' to the ruleset. First,
would it be possible to have sections 'dig-in' or fortify a building?
In other games I've allowed this, plus I have really nifty foxhole
markers. Lance brought this up after his one section remained in a
field for quite a few turns guarding the flank. Our proposal is this:
as long as there are no enemy infantry units in close range and your
section has not been shot at then they can use all their initiative
dice to 'dig-in' making them harder to hit.
The second proposal is to add medics; once again we've got cool figs
of these. They would get their own card like BIG MEN but only be able
to take away wounds with a d4. They would have to be in base contact
with the section to do this. This would also be more of a scenario
driven option.
Once again everyone had a great time! Johann is hooked and has e-
mailed me about what troops he should get; he likes British and Finns-
he was quite excited about the future Winter War supplement. Lance
has Japanese to face my Chindits,[a project to be continued after the
Normandy anniversary games], so he wants to know"...when they going
to do Japs!". I'm interested in the Winter War because of my
Barbarossa Russians ; could we please,pretty please, have a T-35, KV
I & II's, and a T-34 besides the T-26's and 28's in the supplement
list, With the German vehicles in the 'Sieg im Westen' supplement I
would be set! We all are quite interested in 'Charlie Don't surf' as
well and are looking forward to it's release.
I'll be awaiting feedback and suggestions about what we did, right
and wrong.And Ill be bugging Richard and the forum for awhile as we
now add Spotting and other goodies! There is a regional convention
in St. Louis in November. It's held over a weekend with 100-200
people playing mostly historical games. I asked the gang if I should
run IABSM and they said yes! I then asked whether I should set up a
game for Saturday or Sunday and Mike replied," Why not both."
That pretty much sums up what we thought of "I Ain't Been Shot,
Mum!" Thanks again, Steve
|
Steve, one more point I've though of. The issue of giving German AT
strikes the rear armour factor for belly shots is absolutely fine,
however they won't automatically get this advantageous shot in. If
the German AT card has already been turned and they have reserved
their fire then they may choose to shoot at any point during the rest
of that turn. In that case the will get the belly shot.
If, however there is no reserved AT fire card floating around then
the tank will be considered to have crossed the hedge successfully
and not be presenting its belly.
"How can this be when the gunners can see their target clearly?" I
hear you cry, well any number of circumstances could have conspired
to allow this to happen - lots of smoke around that we don't
represent on the table top, the gunner was waiting to get the best
possible shot and left it just a second too long, who knows. This is
essentially what the rules have at their core, you may want your men
to behave in the perfect manner, get the perfect shots, be as brave
as John Wayne/Audie Murphy but in real life they won't be.
In the AT gunner's favour is also that fact that by this stage of the
war I would operate with one card per AT gun, giving the player a
choice of which AT gun he uses that card for, what's more an
additional card in the pack will tip the scales further in the favour
of the AT gunners.
Richard
|
Re: Thanks and more questions and Boccage!
Steve Glad to be of help. If anyone queries anything just make up the answer and tell them I said so;-) Softskins have no armour factor. You still roll to hit, as per normal, and then roll the strike dice with no saving dice. In this way the best a vehicle can get is a draw, then go to the transport vehicle results as you suggest. Regarding initiative, yes, you can use your dice however you like and in any order, move, spot, move as you suggest is perfectly acceptable. The only restrictions are that no infantry unit can use more than three dice for movement in one turn, nor can you reserve dice for anything other than firing. Recce vehicles, like your jeep, should be considered harder to hit, we assume they are driving fast everywhere (I bloody would!). Boccage. For normal hedges we simply lose one whole dice from movement, as one would for crashing through a fence or a similar small obstacle. Boccage is very different. I am inclined to say that much boccage should be uncrossable except for tanks with cullins, however no hedge is universally dense, so certain crossing point could be allocated by the umpire, the players then have to spot to find a suitable point. Once located I would loose two dice totally, so they would move with one dice only. The issue about hedges and field boundaries is not to my mind about the foliage, but more about the usual obstacles that are associated, such as ditches and banks. As such subsequent tanks would also loose two dice when crossing the crossable section of boccage. In the same way normal low hedges will always deduct the single dice even when the foliage is gone, the ditch is still there. If the tank is equipped with the cullin device I would still loose two dice for that tank, but then assume that subsequent tanks can cross more easily, and they would subsequently loose only one dice. A couple of further thoughts after my last reply. Tank Killers do move with three dice when just moving. A full team then has three dice to make its attack the next time its card comes up. The tank killers should always have a bonus card in the pack which will allow them to make an attack even if they've moved this turn. This will not allow them to move (as in "move", not attack) a second time in a turn. Tank/bazooka aiming. A tank has three "dice" (read "initiatives"). When firing its first dice will be an aimed shot. If it then wants to fire again at the same target it may snapshot once for each remaining dice (-2 to hit), or it may use its second dice to aim again, and its third to take an aimed shot. However, if it kills its target with its first shot, it will then have to use its second dice to train its gun onto a fresh target, its third dice may then be used to fire, but it will be a snap shot. The bazooka or schreck that has three dice may fire aimed with its first dice, then change target free of charge, aim with its second and then fire aimed with its third. However I would probably give a ¨C 1 to hit anyway, as the poor bloke will be scared stiff having just given away his position. This wouldn't be the case with a PIAT ¨C no backblast, but they can never shoot twice anyway, so it's irrelevant. Good luck with your game, we're doing Normandy boccage on Tuesday evening, no yanks however but valiant Jocks against Hitler Jugend. We should have the photos on the site by the end of next week. Cheers Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: Thanks Richard for your quick response! It's great to have the author helping one along plus there's the satisfaction of quoting you during the game..." that's not what he meant...is too!"[ I love playing in
the sandbox with my friends]. :P
I like how the panzerschreke/bazooka is being handled, if they're
real successful with their first shot 'brave' players may want to try again, while others opt to find better cover; plus it stops players
from having 'automatic bazookas'during the game!
All of your responses were very clear, the only one that I wish for more clarification is the 'damage to transport'. If I understand
correctly the 'softskins' should get the armor value '2' for 'other
armoured' from the lists, roll to hit and then go to 10.3.2. This
would help out recce jeeps etc. from automatically retiring if not
hit.
When infantry fire use the fire effects table for the number of
hits then consult 10.3.1.
Sorry to be a pain about this but players in the States love
their 'Stats' and there's always a big difference between 'softskins' and armour[:P]. One of my good friends becomes a 'rabid devil doll'
with rules and loves to send trucks on suicide missions! Of course
that's when I suddenly remember to give the mines to the opposing
player!
Another question that came from pushing troops around to see how
the initiative worked was this: can a unit use 1 dice[or 2 if elites] to move, then 1 to spot or fire and then another to move again, [max total 3 for movement]? Or does the movement have to be done at once, move and fire or fire and move. This came up when discussing the use of reconaissance in the game.
My last question is terrain related, how do you handle
the 'Boccage'? I noticed in the 'Hill' scenario under German/British briefings that the Shermans were forced up the 'single track'; of
course their would be sufficent gaps made by the farmers to get into some fields and that 'boggy' pond. But is the armour allowed to force it's way thru the boccage ? Would 'heavy terrain' minus 3 pips per
dice be effective in representing that terrain? If the tank is
allowed to push thru I would want to give AT weapons the bonus
+2 'rear shot' to represent the exposed belly of the tank as it
climbs over the hedge. If a bulldozer or a tank equipped with the
cullen hedgerow cutter is used would it move using 'heavy terrain'
penalty and other vehicles following it use 'light/broken?
Thanks again for your time! -Steve
|
Thanks and more questions and Boccage!
Thanks Richard for your quick response! It's great to have the author
helping one along plus there's the satisfaction of quoting you during
the game..." that's not what he meant...is too!"[ I love playing in
the sandbox with my friends]. :P
I like how the panzerschreke/bazooka is being handled, if they're
real successful with their first shot 'brave' players may want to try
again, while others opt to find better cover; plus it stops players
from having 'automatic bazookas'during the game!
All of your responses were very clear, the only one that I wish for
more clarification is the 'damage to transport'. If I understand
correctly the 'softskins' should get the armor value '2' for 'other
armoured' from the lists, roll to hit and then go to 10.3.2. This
would help out recce jeeps etc. from automatically retiring if not
hit.
When infantry fire use the fire effects table for the number of
hits then consult 10.3.1.
Sorry to be a pain about this but players in the States love
their 'Stats' and there's always a big difference between 'softskins'
and armour[:P]. One of my good friends becomes a 'rabid devil doll'
with rules and loves to send trucks on suicide missions! Of course
that's when I suddenly remember to give the mines to the opposing
player!
Another question that came from pushing troops around to see how
the initiative worked was this: can a unit use 1 dice[or 2 if elites]
to move, then 1 to spot or fire and then another to move again, [max
total 3 for movement]? Or does the movement have to be done at once,
move and fire or fire and move. This came up when discussing the use
of reconaissance in the game.
My last question is terrain related, how do you handle
the 'Boccage'? I noticed in the 'Hill' scenario under German/British
briefings that the Shermans were forced up the 'single track'; of
course their would be sufficent gaps made by the farmers to get into
some fields and that 'boggy' pond. But is the armour allowed to force
it's way thru the boccage ? Would 'heavy terrain' minus 3 pips per
dice be effective in representing that terrain? If the tank is
allowed to push thru I would want to give AT weapons the bonus
+2 'rear shot' to represent the exposed belly of the tank as it
climbs over the hedge. If a bulldozer or a tank equipped with the
cullen hedgerow cutter is used would it move using 'heavy terrain'
penalty and other vehicles following it use 'light/broken?
Thanks again for your time! -Steve
|
Re: questions before first game!
Panzerschrecks and bazookas.....more thoughts. Having thought about it for a moment, I would suggest a good way to play these weapons (and AT rifles) would be to say that they operated as AT guns in their first turn (i.e. with whatever number of dice are appropriate, but from then on they get only one aimed shot per turn. This is all about how brave one would have to be to do that particular job. The PIAT, naturally, only gets one shot even in the first turn. HOWEVER the PIAT can also be used as an effective anti- infantry weapon (just read the history books, Krauts in boccage, church towers, front rooms, it would appear that Empire and Commonwealth troops were noe to bothered abour profligate use against these dubious targets. Treat as 90mm artillery. Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: Hi Richard and the rest of the Too Fat Lardies group!
Sunday I'll be running my first game and last night ran thru the
rules with a couple other gamers. Overall they liked the initiative
dice and cards; the ability to use the dice to decide what they want to do and in what order was very appealing. We've played 'Storm of
Steel' for a couple years so are all quite familiar with unit cards
and everybody likes that over "you go, I go"! :P
Some questions popped up and I'd like clarification or at least
approval to my 'reading' of the rules.
- In the description of the Platoon Card there is mention of
reserving dice for reactive fire. I understand that if a Big Man
activates a section they can save some of their initiative dice for
when the Platoon Card comes up, but is this something different?
There is no further mention in the rules about a reactive/
opportunity fire. My experience is that OP fire really slows the game with a 'defensive' rules player putting all his units on 'overwatch' essentially turning the game into a 'you go, I go' situation.
- " 3.1 +/- Dice". Does the ["+"] ADD 2 PIPS used only for one
action or for each action? in the example the Paras use it for their fire, did their 1 dice of movement get an additional plus 2 pips or
did the player have to decide whether to use it for spotting, firing, or moving?
- " 5.5 Support Weapons." HMG's that are independent do not get
initiative dice. When firing do they get the # of dice of their troop type?
- " 9.9 Tank Killer Teams".They get 3 'basic dice' to move, is
this seperate from their 3 specific actions, or should 'movement' be part of the listed actions? In a previous post Richard mentioned
separate cards for infantry carried AT weapons,[ Panzerschrekes,
bazookas,PIATs], to give them a possible SECOND shot. When I read the rules I assumed that these weapons get their troop types initiative
dice; so like the AT Gun crews [with 3 dice] they can shoot several
times if they wish on their card [?].If this is correct then should
these AT teams need to use an initiative dice to aquire a new target, as in relaying the gun/turning the turret? I noticed that the
special nationality cards that deal with extra movement allow the
vehicles to use all their 3 initiative dice to move. The special
cards for firing only allow for one aimed shot, is this correct?
-"10.3.2 Damage to Transport". The supplements do not list 'armor
dice' for 'softskins',[ naturally! :P],so they are either
damaged/destroyed or retiring after being shot at by AT guns. If
infantry fires on softskins do you use the 'Fire Effects' table to
see how many hits and then apply the results from '10.3.2' ?
- Pinned/ Suppressed. Does a section that is suppressed go back to normal when the turn is over or does it go to pinned and then normal? - Morale. When does it apply or is it based on the scenario/
situation, [i.e. surrounded]? I do like the fact that there is a
built-in morale system with wounds causing loss of pips and dead
losing initiative dice.
Sorry for being so long winded! Most of these questions could
easily be rationalized but I'd appreciate responses from those who
have been playing the game. The game will be a couple of US platoons with tank support against Germans in the boccage. I won't be adding
artillery/aircraft support until we're comfortable with the infantry and armor elements.I'll post a after-action report, with the
inevitable questions!!!.
Thanks, Steve
|
Re: questions before first game!
Steve Hopefully this sorts you out. Question 1 Reserving Dice Platoon Cards When the card turned over is one of your Platoon Cards, the sections within that unit may utilise some or all of their initiative dice for that turn, i.e. they may, move, spot and/or fire. Cards will not appear in the same order each turn, and indeed some may not appear during a turn, thereby making co-ordination of movement more difficult. Within each of your Platoons each section will have its own dice which it can use as you wish. A section must move and spot immediately their card is turned, however you can choose to reserve dice for reactive fire later in the turn, but these can only be saved until the Tea Break Card is turned. As an aide-memoir the reserved dice may be placed with the unit until the end of the turn. Reserving fire is possible only when your card has already come out in that turn. As per the above statement you can only reserve dice for firing, and nothing else. I would say that I should have been more precise here. If a unit has reserved its fire dice it may fir at any point in the turn. For example if a German infantry Platoon has reserved its dice and a US unit (of whatever size) presents itself as a suitable target then it may fire immediately. As a worst case scenario here the US unit may roll its dice and say "I'm charging those S.O.B.s in that hedge over there", the Germans get to fire immediately, or at any time during the US move, for example where they're in the middle of the field. The issue here is about initiative. If the Germans get their card up first, then they've got the jump on their opponent, if not, well then the yanks can get into close combat if they move far enough. Question 2 The +/- dice You are correct, that is not too well written. +2 for one action only. I am open minded about how you use it, I would say that if your dice are being used for a variety of actions then use it how you choose - but only once. I have seen plenty of sets of rules that say, you decide what you think we mean, and apply the rule however you like. Of course you may, however that is a bullshit answer. If anything in the rules is unclear to the reader I can assure you that it ain't unclear to me. Ask, and I'll tell you. Question 3 HMGs dice See section 6.1 "These largely belt fed weapons fire with the equivalent number of dice for a full section of their troop type. There is no reduction in this number of dice until the team is reduced to one man, when the firing dice is reduced to one. MGs mounted on open AFVs such as half tracks or carriers will fire as tripod mounted, but will reduce their effectiveness by one dice for each dice of movement made that turn". Question 4 Tank Killers Yes, I should have said "act" with three dice, not "move". These lads act as per the rules, i.e. they do what they do with the dice they have. They are not a "weapon" that fires, as such they do not dice to hit their target, if they get into contact they have a certain strike based on the armour (if you can spell colour properly then you'll have to live with armour;-)) penetration of whatever was the prevalent panzerknacker tool of the day. Panzerschrecks are more complicated, but easy, if that makes sense. MMGs are the best precedent here. If MMGs are attached to a Platoon then they should fire on the Platoon card. If, however, they are deployed separately then they act on the "support weapons" card. Panzerfausts should ALWAYS be used on the Platoon card. Panzerschrecks may be used in this way as well, however if you choose to deploy them separately, for example sticking them in a hay loft like a sniper, then they should have their own card. This is something that can only be sorted out at the time of the game depending on how the commander deploys his forces. If these weapons are all deployed independently then you can simply stick an extra card in. If they are deployed with their Platoons then stick in a Panzerschreck bonus card and that will allow (as with the AT bonus card) one "free" aimed shot. I would agree that a Panzerschreck or bazooka should be able to operate in the same way as an anti tank gun, i.e. use all of its dice to shoot, aim etc. and indeed use the number of dice inherent with its type. The only restriction here is no more than three dice may be used to move. HOWEVER, the PIAT was a bugger to load so I reckon that it only has one shot per turn. What is more the schreck and Bazooka were only deployed with very limited numbers of rounds, so there is an argument that say they should all only get one shot per turn (aimed as the first shot always is). You pays your money and takes your choice. Question 5 (or 4.1) Aimed shots The first shot from any weapon is considered "aimed". You are correct that if a tank takes its first shot as aimed and the wished to shoot at another target then it uses a second dice to select the next target AND SNAP SHOOT, it may alternatively use its second dice to select the second target and aim, the third dice being the aimed shot. Also "Yes" to the bonus nationality cards for movement and firing. The only time one should have bonus movement cards would be for armoured group moves (i.e. if one has an armour strong force that is not simply a few tanks supporting an infantry attack) or for a recce unit. Firing is a BIG bonus, one shot only is enough! (and yes it'll be aimed, as all first shots are) Question Next Damage to Transport Good question. Damage to transport. The supplements do say that all non specified armoured vehicles have a certain armour value (is it 2 or 3, I haven't got a set with me at the moment, whatever), so guns firing against them may certainly do damage. The rules in section 10.3.2 cover that. If you are firing on a softskin target with infantry weapons then use section 10.3.1 as per AT fire. Three hits knock the vehicle out, and calculate casualties as stated. Question Pinned and Suppressed Straight back to normal. This is very short timescale. Pinned means you are firing back carefully, suppressed means that you ain't firing back at that moment, you're too busy looking for a suitable ditch! Morale I think you've already sussed my feelings on that. The wounds already hamper firing an movement, the close combat system already gives results, other than that it doesn't come up much. I personally remove units when they get to 2/3 figures and more wounds than remaining chaps. However if they're in a bunker I wait a bit longer. If a unit is shot to the proverbial and get charged then we all know what is going to happen. Hopefully that answers your questions. Anything more then feel free to chuck anything at me. Richard --- In Toofatlardies@..., "combatcolours" <combatcolours@h...> wrote: Hi Richard and the rest of the Too Fat Lardies group!
Sunday I'll be running my first game and last night ran thru the
rules with a couple other gamers. Overall they liked the initiative
dice and cards; the ability to use the dice to decide what they want to do and in what order was very appealing. We've played 'Storm of
Steel' for a couple years so are all quite familiar with unit cards
and everybody likes that over "you go, I go"! :P
Some questions popped up and I'd like clarification or at least
approval to my 'reading' of the rules.
- In the description of the Platoon Card there is mention of
reserving dice for reactive fire. I understand that if a Big Man
activates a section they can save some of their initiative dice for
when the Platoon Card comes up, but is this something different?
There is no further mention in the rules about a reactive/
opportunity fire. My experience is that OP fire really slows the game with a 'defensive' rules player putting all his units on 'overwatch' essentially turning the game into a 'you go, I go' situation.
- " 3.1 +/- Dice". Does the ["+"] ADD 2 PIPS used only for one
action or for each action? in the example the Paras use it for their fire, did their 1 dice of movement get an additional plus 2 pips or
did the player have to decide whether to use it for spotting, firing, or moving?
- " 5.5 Support Weapons." HMG's that are independent do not get
initiative dice. When firing do they get the # of dice of their troop type?
- " 9.9 Tank Killer Teams".They get 3 'basic dice' to move, is
this seperate from their 3 specific actions, or should 'movement' be part of the listed actions? In a previous post Richard mentioned
separate cards for infantry carried AT weapons,[ Panzerschrekes,
bazookas,PIATs], to give them a possible SECOND shot. When I read the rules I assumed that these weapons get their troop types initiative
dice; so like the AT Gun crews [with 3 dice] they can shoot several
times if they wish on their card [?].If this is correct then should
these AT teams need to use an initiative dice to aquire a new target, as in relaying the gun/turning the turret? I noticed that the
special nationality cards that deal with extra movement allow the
vehicles to use all their 3 initiative dice to move. The special
cards for firing only allow for one aimed shot, is this correct?
-"10.3.2 Damage to Transport". The supplements do not list 'armor
dice' for 'softskins',[ naturally! :P],so they are either
damaged/destroyed or retiring after being shot at by AT guns. If
infantry fires on softskins do you use the 'Fire Effects' table to
see how many hits and then apply the results from '10.3.2' ?
- Pinned/ Suppressed. Does a section that is suppressed go back to normal when the turn is over or does it go to pinned and then normal? - Morale. When does it apply or is it based on the scenario/
situation, [i.e. surrounded]? I do like the fact that there is a
built-in morale system with wounds causing loss of pips and dead
losing initiative dice.
Sorry for being so long winded! Most of these questions could
easily be rationalized but I'd appreciate responses from those who
have been playing the game. The game will be a couple of US platoons with tank support against Germans in the boccage. I won't be adding
artillery/aircraft support until we're comfortable with the infantry and armor elements.I'll post a after-action report, with the
inevitable questions!!!.
Thanks, Steve
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questions before first game!
Hi Richard and the rest of the Too Fat Lardies group!
Sunday I'll be running my first game and last night ran thru the
rules with a couple other gamers. Overall they liked the initiative
dice and cards; the ability to use the dice to decide what they want
to do and in what order was very appealing. We've played 'Storm of
Steel' for a couple years so are all quite familiar with unit cards
and everybody likes that over "you go, I go"! :P
Some questions popped up and I'd like clarification or at least
approval to my 'reading' of the rules.
- In the description of the Platoon Card there is mention of
reserving dice for reactive fire. I understand that if a Big Man
activates a section they can save some of their initiative dice for
when the Platoon Card comes up, but is this something different?
There is no further mention in the rules about a reactive/
opportunity fire. My experience is that OP fire really slows the game
with a 'defensive' rules player putting all his units on 'overwatch'
essentially turning the game into a 'you go, I go' situation.
- " 3.1 +/- Dice". Does the ["+"] ADD 2 PIPS used only for one
action or for each action? in the example the Paras use it for their
fire, did their 1 dice of movement get an additional plus 2 pips or
did the player have to decide whether to use it for spotting, firing,
or moving?
- " 5.5 Support Weapons." HMG's that are independent do not get
initiative dice. When firing do they get the # of dice of their troop
type?
- " 9.9 Tank Killer Teams".They get 3 'basic dice' to move, is
this seperate from their 3 specific actions, or should 'movement' be
part of the listed actions? In a previous post Richard mentioned
separate cards for infantry carried AT weapons,[ Panzerschrekes,
bazookas,PIATs], to give them a possible SECOND shot. When I read the
rules I assumed that these weapons get their troop types initiative
dice; so like the AT Gun crews [with 3 dice] they can shoot several
times if they wish on their card [?].If this is correct then should
these AT teams need to use an initiative dice to aquire a new target,
as in relaying the gun/turning the turret? I noticed that the
special nationality cards that deal with extra movement allow the
vehicles to use all their 3 initiative dice to move. The special
cards for firing only allow for one aimed shot, is this correct?
-"10.3.2 Damage to Transport". The supplements do not list 'armor
dice' for 'softskins',[ naturally! :P],so they are either
damaged/destroyed or retiring after being shot at by AT guns. If
infantry fires on softskins do you use the 'Fire Effects' table to
see how many hits and then apply the results from '10.3.2' ?
- Pinned/ Suppressed. Does a section that is suppressed go back to
normal when the turn is over or does it go to pinned and then normal?
- Morale. When does it apply or is it based on the scenario/
situation, [i.e. surrounded]? I do like the fact that there is a
built-in morale system with wounds causing loss of pips and dead
losing initiative dice.
Sorry for being so long winded! Most of these questions could
easily be rationalized but I'd appreciate responses from those who
have been playing the game. The game will be a couple of US platoons
with tank support against Germans in the boccage. I won't be adding
artillery/aircraft support until we're comfortable with the infantry
and armor elements.I'll post a after-action report, with the
inevitable questions!!!.
Thanks, Steve
|
Greetings Lard Pickers
This month's "Scenario of the Month" is all ready to be posted, we're
playing the game next Tuesday so I guess we'll go on line on
Wednesday. What is more Sid is bringing his luxury digital camera to
take so rather more professional pictures than my "snaps" of salty
sea dogs. Although with him involved I am sure the captions will be
far more politically correct than my disgraceful display of
Royalnavyaphobia.
Steve at Combat Colours mentioned off list that he was going to be
running a Normandy campaign soon, so I thought I'd show him how we
handle that sphere with a game from the first Day of Operation Epsom,
the Royal Scots Fusiliers attack on 12th SS Hitler Jugend at St
Mauvieu.
In future I am keen to give a broader spread of scenarios - both in
terms of period and from more sets of rules. If anyone has any
particular interests let me know and I'll do my best to accomodate.
Richard
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Richard
I've just checked the links to the photo page, very funny. I've
shown it to a colleague who is keen on Patrick O'Brian and he found
it very amusing.
I hope much more of this will follow.
Ken.
|
I've had an interesting question raised off list that I thought worth
reproducing here. Support Weapon cards, how many should there be?
When the rules were first written I envisaged one Support Weapon card
being in the pack, and all support weapons firing/moving on that.
However the system has evolved to a point where we sometimes add
extra cards. For example, with a Panzer Grenadier Company in 1944
there are four Panzerschrecks present, along with the ususal
complement of MGs and mortars. In this situation I feel that more
cards are needed. The 50mm mortars that are attached at Platoon
level should fire on their Platoon card. I am quite happy for the MG
fire to be on one single card, but I do think that the Panzerschrecks
may need their own cards, and be treated as though they are AT guns.
Hence four cards in the pack marked specifically for Panzerschrecks.
When a card is turned the player may choose which one he wants to
fire, this gives the anti-tank weapon a slight advantage over the
tanks (as we do with good quality AT guns) and does mean that we are
not seeing salvos of syncronised 'schrecks all loosing off at the
same time.
It is important to remember that each weapon can only fire once in a
turn, so the second panzerschreck card turned would have to be a
different team firing and so on.
Equally if you feel that the unit that you are representing is top
quality you could add extra cards. Once ALL of the panzerschreck had
fired/moved/spotted in a turn then further cards coming out would
allow a team of choice to get an extra bonus shot. I fact this extra
shot would happen only rarely, however more cards do mean that you
have a greater chance of more coming into play in each turn.
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Naturally I meant "off list" not "of list"......
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