Re: DIY Tartan 27 Mast Unstepping
Strongly worded, but many good points,?Peter.?
On a positive note, I hope some can benefit from my experience with this conundrum. When faced with?removing the keel-stepped mast from my T27, I was unable to find much information on how to accomplish this in a safe and controlled manner,?so I can sympathize with you,?Scott. My boat was in the water, so I wanted to be sure whatever I did would be very stable and controlled. So I worked out this tripod hoist for my own mast hauling, and it worked very well. While I have not done it yet, my rig is designed with sufficient control and stability to re-step the mast, too.
The leggs are 1-1/2 electric conduit; two 10' lengths per leg. They are joined with internal?plug connectors of PVC, sliced lengthwise to expand, and with oak driven inside the PVC to set them up tight. The added outside collars are for good measure. I drilled pockets?in some wood scraps for feet. The forward leg went aft of the anchor roller and the port and starboard legs went aft of the chainplates. I tied them off so they would not slide out of place. The apex was in front of the mast.
The sling went around the mast as high as I could get it, which was a couple of feet below the balance point of the mast. My tripod was too short to attach at the?balance point of the mast and still have the required 6' of lift. The balance point is just below the spreaders, so, since my strap would have to be lower, I calculated the top-heaviness at about 90#, which is because of the long lever arm of this imbalance. (My recollection is the mast is not anywhere near 300#. More like half that, including wires, winches, etc.) We counterweighted (hugged) the mast at the bottom to keep the mast from swinging down onto the stern rail. This was no problem,?though it did provide the greatest anticipatory adrenaline?rush of the procedure. Next time I will add 2' to each leg to achieve near balance, which would (on a calm day, of course) allow this rig to then be safely used solo!
The picture is of the half-legged tripod with a T27 mizzen, just so the arrangement can be seen in action. I have a ratcheting turn-around pulley at the bottom of the near leg, which, in use, I?hooked to the cabin house near the base of the mast. That way I could let go of the rig without any slippage. This proved useful.
I'm all for gaining this kind of independence and doing things yourself. Scott, maybe you can build one of these for your?reinstall. I hope my rig helps and inspires others to think through their own safe and controlled mast management.
Alan BTW, sadly, my T27 is for sale. 860-572-5722c
  
On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 8:21 AM Pete Rebo via <horsehideperfecto= [email protected]> wrote:
> Scott,
>
> I can see several reasons why you should NEVER attempt anything like this again¡you guys got lucky no one was killed or seriously injured.? About the only thing you sort of got right was your actual pick point location¡although it could have been a bit lower, thus reducing the overall height needed for either an A-frame or gin pole.
>
> Almost every picture you list shows major safety issues along with poor design¡the A-frame is way to tall first off¡no need to have that extra unstable length up there, I would guess you had about ten feet of lift after clearing the partners.
>
> It looks from a few shots that your A-frame was bowing quite a bit¡not a great look.? I am no carpenter but how this wood was oriented, with the wider section going port to starboard as well as the limited bracing help to explain the near banana shape you achieved with this 300 lb. spar.
>
> 30¡¯ off the ground on a ladder with a boat on jack stands¡are you aware that boats have fallen in boat yards from owners going aloft in moderate winds?? The flagpole indicates 15 kts. of wind roughly¡you also have the bare minimum of jack stands..at least buy one for the bow¡.ideally you should be on 7 stands total.
>
> An anchor on your cabin top¡was that for opening beers?? A tripping hazard?? Or just there in case one of your helpers lost their balance, fell, and then struck their head on this anchor that has no business being there, at that time, with the work being done.
>
> Another ladder trick, this time setting it up as scaffolding from bow to stern¡if your A-frame failed that person¡¯s chances of survival were cut in half being in that precarious location¡15¡¯ plus from pavement¡or the ability to move very far as the entire F¡¯d up monstrosity above is crashing to the deck.
>
> Be sure to pray to whatever God you believe in asap.? Next go to your local marina and buy an old mast and make a proper gin pole¡I would also delete all of these pictures and never speak of this again.? On second thought this could be a great way to instruct others on the wrong way to build an A-frame, un-steping a spar, etc, etc. etc.? ?
>
> Happy Holidays,
>
> Pete Rebovich
>
> Ps¡what was the line that got hung up that stopped you dead in your tracks once the mast butt got near the ground?? I hope it was not your backstay since that should have been tied to the spar along with all your other standing rigging before lifting¡.
>
> ***
> ?Thought you might enjoy some photos of our mast removal last week, using an A-Frame constructed of 2x4¡¯s. Total cost, somewhere in the neighborhood of $75. Not without a few issues.
>
>
>
|
Re: DIY Tartan 27 Mast Unstepping
Hello all,
I like the very handsome mahogany transom. Can't quite read the boat's name but looks like "Independance". Guess that says it all.
Merry Christmas!
Michael Alberg 30 #133
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On 12/21/2021 8:19 AM Pete Rebo via groups.io <horsehideperfecto@...> wrote:
Scott,
I can see several reasons why you should NEVER attempt anything like this again¡you guys got lucky no one was killed or seriously injured. About the only thing you sort of got right was your actual pick point location¡although it could have been a bit lower, thus reducing the overall height needed for either an A-frame or gin pole.
Almost every picture you list shows major safety issues along with poor design¡the A-frame is way to tall first off¡no need to have that extra unstable length up there, I would guess you had about ten feet of lift after clearing the partners.
It looks from a few shots that your A-frame was bowing quite a bit¡not a great look. I am no carpenter but how this wood was oriented, with the wider section going port to starboard as well as the limited bracing help to explain the near banana shape you achieved with this 300 lb. spar.
30¡¯ off the ground on a ladder with a boat on jack stands¡are you aware that boats have fallen in boat yards from owners going aloft in moderate winds? The flagpole indicates 15 kts. of wind roughly¡you also have the bare minimum of jack stands..at least buy one for the bow¡.ideally you should be on 7 stands total.
An anchor on your cabin top¡was that for opening beers? A tripping hazard? Or just there in case one of your helpers lost their balance, fell, and then struck their head on this anchor that has no business being there, at that time, with the work being done.
Another ladder trick, this time setting it up as scaffolding from bow to stern¡if your A-frame failed that person¡¯s chances of survival were cut in half being in that precarious location¡15¡¯ plus from pavement¡or the ability to move very far as the entire F¡¯d up monstrosity above is crashing to the deck.
Be sure to pray to whatever God you believe in asap. Next go to your local marina and buy an old mast and make a proper gin pole¡I would also delete all of these pictures and never speak of this again. On second thought this could be a great way to instruct others on the wrong way to build an A-frame, un-steping a spar, etc, etc. etc.
Happy Holidays,
Pete Rebovich
Ps¡what was the line that got hung up that stopped you dead in your tracks once the mast butt got near the ground? I hope it was not your backstay since that should have been tied to the spar along with all your other standing rigging before lifting¡.
***
?Thought you might enjoy some photos of our mast removal last week, using an A-Frame constructed of 2x4¡¯s. Total cost, somewhere in the neighborhood of $75. Not without a few issues.
|
Re: DIY Tartan 27 Mast Unstepping
Scott,
I can see several reasons why you should NEVER attempt anything like this again¡you guys got lucky no one was killed or seriously injured. About the only thing you sort of got right was your actual pick point location¡although it could have been a bit lower, thus reducing the overall height needed for either an A-frame or gin pole.
Almost every picture you list shows major safety issues along with poor design¡the A-frame is way to tall first off¡no need to have that extra unstable length up there, I would guess you had about ten feet of lift after clearing the partners.
It looks from a few shots that your A-frame was bowing quite a bit¡not a great look. I am no carpenter but how this wood was oriented, with the wider section going port to starboard as well as the limited bracing help to explain the near banana shape you achieved with this 300 lb. spar.
30¡¯ off the ground on a ladder with a boat on jack stands¡are you aware that boats have fallen in boat yards from owners going aloft in moderate winds? The flagpole indicates 15 kts. of wind roughly¡you also have the bare minimum of jack stands..at least buy one for the bow¡.ideally you should be on 7 stands total.
An anchor on your cabin top¡was that for opening beers? A tripping hazard? Or just there in case one of your helpers lost their balance, fell, and then struck their head on this anchor that has no business being there, at that time, with the work being done.
Another ladder trick, this time setting it up as scaffolding from bow to stern¡if your A-frame failed that person¡¯s chances of survival were cut in half being in that precarious location¡15¡¯ plus from pavement¡or the ability to move very far as the entire F¡¯d up monstrosity above is crashing to the deck.
Be sure to pray to whatever God you believe in asap. Next go to your local marina and buy an old mast and make a proper gin pole¡I would also delete all of these pictures and never speak of this again. On second thought this could be a great way to instruct others on the wrong way to build an A-frame, un-steping a spar, etc, etc. etc.
Happy Holidays,
Pete Rebovich
Ps¡what was the line that got hung up that stopped you dead in your tracks once the mast butt got near the ground? I hope it was not your backstay since that should have been tied to the spar along with all your other standing rigging before lifting¡.
*** ?Thought you might enjoy some photos of our mast removal last week, using an A-Frame constructed of 2x4¡¯s. Total cost, somewhere in the neighborhood of $75. Not without a few issues.
|
DIY Tartan 27 Mast Unstepping
Thought you might enjoy some photos of our mast removal last week, using an A-Frame constructed of 2x4¡¯s. Total cost, somewhere in the neighborhood of $75. Not without a few issues.
|
As someone already noted. The rudder shoe has to come off. If there is enough play to go around it, you have have a big project...
Our rudder shoe (1975 boat) was bolted all the way through the keel with 2 bolts. I made sure to get 316 replacements. I also added a thrust collar above the deck so the shoe is not the only thing keeping the rudder from falling down.
As noted, digging a hole is location dependent.? We were fortunate,?
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl
|
Don't know if this will work, but can you put a bushing in from the
top without removing the rudder, by just removing the tiller head,
sticking feeler gauges in there to figure out what the slop is,
getting some appropriate material of the correct thickness, cutting it
to the correct circumference, and sliding it in?
A pre-made or DIY split bearing like
could be wrapped around the shaft on the bottom side and slide upward
maybe.
If there's existing bushing in there that's worn an oval shape, that
won't work. Old would have to come out or at least be pushed out of
the way. A metal split bearing wrapped around the rudder shaft and
gently nudged might be able to accomplish that.
Just brainstorming here.
Unrelated but it looks like groups.io just stopped talking to my main
mail account so doing gmail instead here.
Cheers,
-scott
#93
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On 12/13/21, jeremy@... <jeremy@...> wrote: On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 10:41 AM B P <blurise2@...> wrote:
Since the rudder sits in a boot
at the bottom, is there a clearance to lift it out of the boot so you
Can slide it down and out?
No. That is largely a good thing, because it means it won't accidentally
pop out if you bang the rudder on the ground/rock.
Another thing to watch out for is that the rudder does *not* drop straight
down -- but slides out at an angle because the rudder post is at an angle.
I got as far as removing the boot and attempting to slide out the rudder
only to realize that due to the angle, the rudder would hit the boat
cradle.
Also the 'dig a hole' idea is nice, but in some boat yards, the top few
feet or more of the ground is packed gravel -- which is a major pain to
shovel. So make sure you can actually dig a hole before needing to rely on
digging a hole.
In theory, removing the boot is as simple as removing 4-6 bolts. But..
those bolts were (a) covered in years of bottom paint (2) seized nicely in
place on my boat. So, trying to remove the rudder while the boat is in a
travel lift sling is a nice idea since that can (a) give you enough ground
clearance to remove he rudder and (b) won't be in the way of removing the
rudder. But, getting the boot off can be a tedious process -- so it could
work fine if the boatyard will leave your boat in the sling overnight (or
more), but not the best option if you only have an hour.
- jeremy
|
Since the rudder sits in a boot
at the bottom, is there a clearance to lift it out of the boot so you
Can slide it down and out?
No. That is largely a good thing, because it means it won't accidentally pop out if you bang the rudder on the ground/rock.
Another thing to watch out for is that the rudder does *not* drop straight down -- but slides out at an angle because the rudder post is at an angle. I got as far as removing the boot and attempting to slide out the rudder only to realize that due to the angle, the rudder would hit the boat cradle.
Also the 'dig a hole' idea is nice, but in some boat yards, the top few feet or more of the ground is packed gravel -- which is a major pain to shovel. So make sure you can actually dig a hole before needing to rely on digging a hole.
In theory, removing the boot is as simple as removing 4-6 bolts. But.. those bolts were (a) covered in years of bottom paint (2) seized nicely in place on my boat. So, trying to remove the rudder while the boat is in a travel lift sling is a nice idea since that can (a) give you enough ground clearance to remove he rudder and (b) won't be in the way of removing the rudder. But, getting the boot off can be a tedious process -- so it could work fine if the boatyard will leave your boat in the sling overnight (or more), but not the best option if you only have an hour.
?- jeremy
|
Re: CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee
Hello Hill #614 here Edgewater Cleveland If unclaimed..would love to have it I will send you my address? Pete Billington? 220 Murwood dr Moreland Hills Ohio 44022 Many thanks and fair winds your way
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On Nov 28, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:
?
Scott, I¡¯d be honored to accept, but at least let me pay the postage. ? Warren Stein, 39962 Lookout Lane, Waterford, VA 20197. ?Thank you!
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosenthal <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, Nov 28, 2021 8:50 am
Subject: [T27Owners] CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee
Hi,
?
I owned a Tartan 27 from 1983 to 1997, hull 555. I was also very active with the Chesapeake Bay Tartan 27 Association, before they got folded into CBTSC. Anyway, I was going through some old boxes and I came across this unused burgee. If anyone in the group wants it, it¡¯s free and I¡¯ll even pay the postage (within US). I¡¯d rather see it go to another T27 sailor.
Regards,
Scott
?
?
|
Re: CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee
Thanks, Warren. I¡¯ll mail it out this week. Postage will be miniscule¡ªdon¡¯t worry about it. I¡¯m just glad it¡¯s going to a T27 owner. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Warren Stein via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 1:32 PM
To: scott@...; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee ? Scott, I¡¯d be honored to accept, but at least let me pay the postage. ? Warren Stein, 39962 Lookout Lane, Waterford, VA 20197. ?Thank you!
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosenthal <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, Nov 28, 2021 8:50 am
Subject: [T27Owners] CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee I owned a Tartan 27 from 1983 to 1997, hull 555. I was also very active with the Chesapeake Bay Tartan 27 Association, before they got folded into CBTSC. Anyway, I was going through some old boxes and I came across this unused burgee. If anyone in the group wants it, it¡¯s free and I¡¯ll even pay the postage (within US). I¡¯d rather see it go to another T27 sailor.
|
Now that I've had a chance to inspect the rudder "on the hard" I don't believe that there is anything wrong with the lower part of the rudder.? If my guess is correct, the top of the shaft that runs in the tube may need a bushing.? More inspection is required, however I have not been to the boat to inspect further.
|
Re: CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee
Scott, I¡¯d be honored to accept, but at least let me pay the postage. ? Warren Stein, 39962 Lookout Lane, Waterford, VA 20197. ?Thank you!
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosenthal <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, Nov 28, 2021 8:50 am
Subject: [T27Owners] CBT27A Tartan 27 Burgee
Hi,
?
I owned a Tartan 27 from 1983 to 1997, hull 555. I was also very active with the Chesapeake Bay Tartan 27 Association, before they got folded into CBTSC. Anyway, I was going through some old boxes and I came across this unused burgee. If anyone in the group wants it, it¡¯s free and I¡¯ll even pay the postage (within US). I¡¯d rather see it go to another T27 sailor.
Regards,
Scott
?
?
|
Hi, ? I owned a Tartan 27 from 1983 to 1997, hull 555. I was also very active with the Chesapeake Bay Tartan 27 Association, before they got folded into CBTSC. Anyway, I was going through some old boxes and I came across this unused burgee. If anyone in the group wants it, it¡¯s free and I¡¯ll even pay the postage (within US). I¡¯d rather see it go to another T27 sailor. 
Regards,
Scott
? Scott Rosenthal
scott@...
?
|
Hello,
I am new to this forum, but this thread cought my eye, as I have a
similar issue. I have a question on DAMSELv's explanation... When you
say " Slide the rudder down and out", Since the rudder sits in a boot
at the bottom, is there a clearance to lift it out of the boot so you
Can slide it down and out?
Also, does anyone have pics, or diagrams of the rudder assembly? I
contacted Tartan, and was sent a rough hand drawn diagram that tells
you nothing about what is needed for this...
Thanks in advance!
Blu
Port Richy Fl
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 9:54 PM Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote:
we have hull number 593. And here is the deal for removing the rudder, atleast for our boat. Remove the prop.
Remove the prop shaft.
Remove the tiller head.
Remove the rudder shoe or lower Gurgaon.
Slide rudder down and out.
Note you need clearance to get the shaft out of the hull so block her high or dig a hole. The reason for removing the prop and shaft are that the rudder won't clear the prop shaft on the way down. Depending on your prop style ( three blades) some times the prop won't clear the rudder. In that case you have to remove the coupling and push the shaft in board to get the prop off. At least that was our situation before converting to a 2 bladed prop.
As for the creaking. Tiller could be delaminating or just worn and moving in the tiller head. The pivots in the tiller head can wear creating movement between the bronze pieces. Or it could be between the head and the shaft. Inspect closely. Note if any of the bolt holes are wollowed out, just tightening the bolts is a short term band-aid. It will just wear and deform more. It may require a machinist. Or if it's in the wood some epoxy and re drilling. I may or may not have recently dealt with this issue. We have no bearing in the rudder tube. Wear was minimal.
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl
|
Good catch. It is a 27-2
I forgot to sign:
#663 27-2
|
Is that a 27-2?
Look very different than my berth.. Install look great though!
|
This spring/summer we installed a new holding tank - after replacing the hoses to our old one, we found that the original tank was cracked. Unsolicited Lesson there is...replace the whole system. Our previous holding tank was suspended from metal straps under the port side V-berth cushion. We removed the previous holding tank and got a replacement tank from that built one custom to our measurements. We actually increased the capacity from 19 to 25 gallons by extending the length and depth of the original tank. It was bear to get back in because we suspended the new one similar to what was done with the original one. It took 2-3 people and some agility and comfort with tight spaces (but that's pretty much all boat projects). Attached are in progress and after pictures. I'm happy to provide a more thorough explanation if it's useful. We also have a ton more pictures as well as measurements for our old and new tank and where those hoses are all set up. Original Tank after dropping it from it's hold  New tank - testing out the straps. We ended up using copper pipe straps with adhesive foam to prevent chafe (not shown here)  Final tank installation - because we moved the fittings from the side to the top, we had to build up the separator (the lighter colored wood on top). It's also heavier so we added the metal strap on the back to help with spreading out the load. 
|
I did on Hull No. 90. ? It¡¯s a rectangle with one pointy end and I was able to fit it forward in the vee berth area. ?It¡¯s 20 gallons, some kind of poly that I don¡¯t recall. ? ?Now, it may be that the reason ?I was able to fit it in there is that I eliminated the ¡®Vee¡¯ part. ? I¡¯m saying, I made everything forward of the head (on the port side) and everything forward of the hanging locker (on the starboard side) into one continuous bunk, with no ¡®vee¡¯ dividing the two sides. ? The downside to that is, you do need to climb up on the ¡®mattress¡¯ to access the two shelves, port and starboard. ? But the upside is huge: ?a bunk plenty big enough for two, with room to spare. ? It¡¯s genuinely about as wide as a queen mattress, at least at the aft end. ? Extremely comfortable. ?My GF and I sleep with our feet forward, so our heads are at the aft end. ?That does make for some gymnastics getting in and out of bed, but it¡¯s all part of ¡®boat yoga¡¯ and I don¡¯t regret the decision to eliminate the vee.
You should google ¡°Peggy Hall Marine Sanitation¡± and get her book. ? It¡¯s absolutely worth it. ? She¡¯s probably the industry authority on the subject and is known as ¡°The Head Mistress.¡± ?IIRC she has recommendations for particular sources for tanks, among other things. ?BTW, one thing she¡¯s real big on is venting for the holding tank; and because my holding tank is fairly far forward, I was able to plumb hard PVC piping running forward from the tank¡¯s two top vents, in the chain locker, to breather fittings just below the stem fitting. ??
-----Original Message-----
From: b_gagnon via groups.io <b_gagnon@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, Nov 2, 2021 1:50 pm
Subject: [T27Owners] Holding Tank?
Has anyone here added a holding tank?
If so do you have any info as to how and where you added it?
I have a 1976 27' Hull# 622
Thanks..
|
Has anyone here added a holding tank?
If so do you have any info as to how and where you added it?
I have a 1976 27' Hull# 622
Thanks..
|
Thanks Carl, That gives me a much better idea of what I'm in for.? All sounds logical and not all that bad.? Just some work.? I very much appreciate the reply.? Thanks again.
|
we have hull number 593. And here is the deal for removing the rudder, atleast for our boat.? Remove the prop.
Remove the prop shaft.
Remove the tiller head.
Remove the rudder shoe or lower gudgeon.
Slide rudder down and out.
Note you need clearance to get the shaft out of the hull so block her high or dig a hole.? The reason for removing the prop and shaft are that the rudder won't clear the prop shaft on the way down. Depending on your prop style ( three blades) some times the prop won't clear the rudder. In that case you have to remove the coupling and push the shaft in board to get the prop off.? At least that was our situation before converting to a 2 bladed prop.
As for the creaking. Tiller could be delaminating or just worn and moving in the tiller head. The pivots in the tiller head can wear creating movement between the bronze pieces. Or it could be between the head and the shaft. Inspect closely.? Note if any of the bolt holes are wollowed out, just tightening the bolts is a short term band-aid. It will just wear and deform more. It may require a machinist. Or if it's in the wood some epoxy and re drilling. I may or may not have recently dealt with this issue.? We have no bearing in the rudder tube. Wear was minimal.
--
Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl
|
