Re: Distributor Won't Clamp Down
Thanks for the detailed instructions.? I have come to the conclusion that if I'm going to be an Esprit S1 owner then I need to start doing this kind of maintenance myself.? I threw myself into the deep end on this one.? Based on Tim's notes, I'm going to have to pull the distributor out to get the pinch clamp back on properly.? It's a big step for me that I liken to open heart surgery.? The drive dog and keyway are my safety net.? I'm curious to see the stud and slot in the pump housing and clamp.? When this is all over I'll have a good working understanding of all the parts and pieces.? I'll take it one step at a time and keep everyone posted.
-- Toaph
On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 08:39:55 PM EDT, dave78esprit via groups.io <armsdc@...> wrote:
I¡¯ve had good luck sticking the distributor back in by leaving the clamp ring secured to the engine and just releasing the punch bolt but you need to twist the shaft to get the drive dog aligned so it can slide in. You basically have two things to align. You have to align the distributor body with 2 hopefully concentric rings (the housing and the clamp ring) but you also have to align the shaft drive dog, and twisting the distributor body won¡¯t help.? You have to twist the shaft and that means pulling the cap so you do twist the rotor until it aligns and slides together.? On the S1/S2 you can reach in and hold it pretty readily.? I do more work in the Turbo Esprit and there reaching the distributor is more difficult so I¡¯ve taken to using 1 long screw driver to loosen the clamp screw. While simultaneously using another to apply pressure and hold it in reaching between the carbs and wedging against something It¡¯s cumbersome but it can work. It doesn¡¯t help once it pops out but it does yep preventing that. Dave C > On Aug 27, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Tim Engel < TSEngel@...> wrote: > > ?Toaph, > As you have discovered, there is a bias spring inside the oil pump housing.? If you just loosen the distributor's retaining clamp(ie, back-off on the screw that tightens/loosens the 'pinch' portion of the clamp), then the spring will pop the distributor out. > > Note that there is also a slot in the clamp that fits over a stud sticking out of the back side of the oil pump housing.? Then an Nyloc nut secures the clamp & distributor to the oil pump.? "IF" you had loosened that nut instead of the clamp's "pinch screw", then the distributor wouldn't have popped out.? Unfortunately, that curved slow only allows a few degrees of timing adjustment.? If that's not enough, then you still end up having to revert to loosening the 'pinch screw'.? In order to do that safely... > > 1) Grasp the end of the distributor with your left hand ('palm' it), and apply inward pressure to hold it secrely against the end of the oil pump housing. > > 2) Use a large, straight-blade screwdriver to loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw'.? Not sloppy loose, just enough that you can rotate the distributor body.? While still maintaining inward hand-pressure, rotate the distributor body as necessary to achieve the desired ignition timing. > > 3) With the timing set, and still maintaining inward hand pressure, re-tighten the 'pinch screw'.? Only after the screw is tight, and the distributor secure, can you release your inward hand pressure and let go of the distributor.? Get lazy or forgetful about the inward hand pressure at any time during all the above, and the distributor will pop out. > > Getting the distributor back into the oil pump housing by simply pushing the distributor inward probably won't work.? The clamp is bolted to the pump housing, and the chances of the hole? in the clamp perfectly aligning with the hole in the pump housing are nil.? And even a minor mis-alignment will prevent the distributor from sliding back into the pump housing as easily as it popped out.? It's not gonna happen. > > Instead, remove the Nyloc nut that holds the distributor clamp to the pump housing.? Remove the distributor cap (easier than removing all 5 high-tension wires), then remove the distributor and clamp together. > > With the distributor out of the car, slide the clamp all the way up the long shank, and onto the short shoulder at the base of the distributor's large head.? Tighten the pinch screw.? The distrib & clamp are now one, and you only have to align it with the one hole in the oil pump housing during installation.? Except... > > The distributor connects to the end of the auxiliary shaft via a drive dog and slot (keyway).? The drive dog is offset (off-center) on the end of the shaft, so it will only mate with the slot one way. > > Look into the end of the oil pump housing and observe the position of the keyway slot on the end of the shaft.? Then observe the position of the drive dog on the end of the distributor shaft.? Grasp the rotor with your left hand, and use it as a knob to rotate the shaft until the drive dog 'appears' to align with the keyway. > > Insert the distributor into the oil pump, taking care to fit the slot in the clamp over the stud on the back end of the oil pump housing.? The chance that the drive dog will drop into the keyway is nil, so the distributor will stop going in prior that being fully seated.? Use the rotor to rotate the shaft back & forth while pushing the distributor inward, using the 'Braille method' to find the keyway.? When you do, the drive dog will drop into the keyway, and the distributor will drop the rest of the way into the pump housing's bore.? Thump... push it home. > > Hold firm inward pressure on the distributor while you install the (preferably new) Nyloc nut and washer, and tighten them securely.? Only now can you release the inward pressure on the distributor, let go, and relax. > > Pedantically holding inward pressure on the distributor is what you should have done way back when you tried to set the ignition timing. > > Now you're back to where you started, but the ignition timing is probably much further off than it was before. > > What type of ignition system are you using.? Many modern electronic ignition systems use a Hall Effect Sensor, and can NOT be static timed.? The engine has to be running first.? However, original Breaker Points as well as magnetic or light sensing ignition systems can be static timed.? That's another long set of instructions I'm going to put off writing for now.? Instead, let's just pre-position the rotor and distributor body... as follows: > > Manually rotate the crankshaft to TDC with the two cam pulley timing marks aligned.? "IF" the crank is at TDC, but the cam pulley marks are on far opposite sides of their pulleys, then continue turning the crank through one more full revolution, and back to TDC.? The cam pulley timing marks should now align.? If not, the cam timing is off... fix it before proceeding.? From a 'correct' TDC... > > Install the distributor cap, then follow the plug wire from the #1 spark plug back to it's connection on the distributor cap (you did leave it connected, didn't you?).? Use a felt tip pen to mark the centerline location of that #1 cap terminal on the adjacent distributor body.? Remove the cap.? You need to know where the rotor is relative to the #1 terminal, but you have to remove the cap to see see the rotor.? Which is why you put a mark on the distributor's body that aligns with the centerline of the #1 terminal on the cap.? Remove the cap. > > With the crank set to your desired ignition timing, the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade is where it will be when the coil fires.? Your next task is to rotate the distributor's body, bringing the cap's #1 centerline mark into alignment with the rotor blade's leading edge. > > "Leading edge"... The engine's normal direction of rotation is clockwise as viewed from in front of the engine looking back at it.? That's not easy in the Esprit.? So from a position behind (or alongside of) the engine, looking forward at the open distributor, normal direction of rotation would see the rotor & shaft rotating counter-clockwise.? The rotor's brass blade terminal's leading edge is the side that is pointing in that counter-clockwise direction.? Your goal is to bring the #1 terminals pen-mark on the body into alignment with the rotor's leading edge. > > Grab the distributor with your left hand and apply firm inward pressure (ie, pushing it into the oil pump housing).? Maintain that pressure while you loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw' enough that the distributor's body can be rotated with little effort.? Rotate the body to bring the #1 terminal mark to the rotor's leading edge.? This may require disconnecting the small 12v wires to the distributor such that you don't wind them up around the distributor. > > Once they're roughly aligned, rotate the distributor body counter-clockwise (from your point of view behind, looking forward) and inch or so (non-critical).? Then reverse, and return the #1 mark to precise alignment with the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade... STOP!? Tighten the clamp's 'pinch screw' without rotating the distributor in the process.? Release your inward hand pressure. > > The ignition timing is now pre-aligned at your desired timing... if not precisely 'static timed' (we're splitting hairs here).? It should be close enough to get the started.? When the engine is running smoothly (give it a little time to warm up), use a strobe timing light to accurately set the ignition timing. > > Not to beat a dead horse, but be sure to apply inward pressure on the distributor prior to loosening the clamp, and hold that pressure until you're done strobe-timing the ignition, and have retightened the 'pinch screw'. > > Have fun, > Tim Engel > > > > 08/27/2022, 11:42AM, Toaph, toaph@...> wrote: >> >> Okay, so I learned the hard way what my mechanic meant when he said that he can't adjust the timing or the distributor will pop out. Please see the quick video linked below. When I first tried to adjust the distributor, it was pretty well stuck, but as soon as I unstuck it, it slipped out and I can't get it secured again. If seems as if I can't push it in all the way, and even if I could it looks like there's too much of a gap in the plate for it to be able to be able to clamp down on it even though I have it as tight as I can get it. I don't know what this is supposed to be like. Any tips appreciated. >> >> -- Toaph > > > > >
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Re: Distributor Won't Clamp Down
I¡¯ve had good luck sticking the distributor back in by leaving the clamp ring secured to the engine and just releasing the punch bolt but you need to twist the shaft to get the drive dog aligned so it can slide in. You basically have two things to align. You have to align the distributor body with 2 hopefully concentric rings (the housing and the clamp ring) but you also have to align the shaft drive dog, and twisting the distributor body won¡¯t help. You have to twist the shaft and that means pulling the cap so you do twist the rotor until it aligns and slides together. On the S1/S2 you can reach in and hold it pretty readily. I do more work in the Turbo Esprit and there reaching the distributor is more difficult so I¡¯ve taken to using 1 long screw driver to loosen the clamp screw. While simultaneously using another to apply pressure and hold it in reaching between the carbs and wedging against something It¡¯s cumbersome but it can work. It doesn¡¯t help once it pops out but it does yep preventing that.
Dave C
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On Aug 27, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Tim Engel <TSEngel@...> wrote:
?Toaph,
As you have discovered, there is a bias spring inside the oil pump housing. If you just loosen the distributor's retaining clamp(ie, back-off on the screw that tightens/loosens the 'pinch' portion of the clamp), then the spring will pop the distributor out.
Note that there is also a slot in the clamp that fits over a stud sticking out of the back side of the oil pump housing. Then an Nyloc nut secures the clamp & distributor to the oil pump. "IF" you had loosened that nut instead of the clamp's "pinch screw", then the distributor wouldn't have popped out. Unfortunately, that curved slow only allows a few degrees of timing adjustment. If that's not enough, then you still end up having to revert to loosening the 'pinch screw'. In order to do that safely...
1) Grasp the end of the distributor with your left hand ('palm' it), and apply inward pressure to hold it secrely against the end of the oil pump housing.
2) Use a large, straight-blade screwdriver to loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw'. Not sloppy loose, just enough that you can rotate the distributor body. While still maintaining inward hand-pressure, rotate the distributor body as necessary to achieve the desired ignition timing.
3) With the timing set, and still maintaining inward hand pressure, re-tighten the 'pinch screw'. Only after the screw is tight, and the distributor secure, can you release your inward hand pressure and let go of the distributor. Get lazy or forgetful about the inward hand pressure at any time during all the above, and the distributor will pop out.
Getting the distributor back into the oil pump housing by simply pushing the distributor inward probably won't work. The clamp is bolted to the pump housing, and the chances of the hole in the clamp perfectly aligning with the hole in the pump housing are nil. And even a minor mis-alignment will prevent the distributor from sliding back into the pump housing as easily as it popped out. It's not gonna happen.
Instead, remove the Nyloc nut that holds the distributor clamp to the pump housing. Remove the distributor cap (easier than removing all 5 high-tension wires), then remove the distributor and clamp together.
With the distributor out of the car, slide the clamp all the way up the long shank, and onto the short shoulder at the base of the distributor's large head. Tighten the pinch screw. The distrib & clamp are now one, and you only have to align it with the one hole in the oil pump housing during installation. Except...
The distributor connects to the end of the auxiliary shaft via a drive dog and slot (keyway). The drive dog is offset (off-center) on the end of the shaft, so it will only mate with the slot one way.
Look into the end of the oil pump housing and observe the position of the keyway slot on the end of the shaft. Then observe the position of the drive dog on the end of the distributor shaft. Grasp the rotor with your left hand, and use it as a knob to rotate the shaft until the drive dog 'appears' to align with the keyway.
Insert the distributor into the oil pump, taking care to fit the slot in the clamp over the stud on the back end of the oil pump housing. The chance that the drive dog will drop into the keyway is nil, so the distributor will stop going in prior that being fully seated. Use the rotor to rotate the shaft back & forth while pushing the distributor inward, using the 'Braille method' to find the keyway. When you do, the drive dog will drop into the keyway, and the distributor will drop the rest of the way into the pump housing's bore. Thump... push it home.
Hold firm inward pressure on the distributor while you install the (preferably new) Nyloc nut and washer, and tighten them securely. Only now can you release the inward pressure on the distributor, let go, and relax.
Pedantically holding inward pressure on the distributor is what you should have done way back when you tried to set the ignition timing.
Now you're back to where you started, but the ignition timing is probably much further off than it was before.
What type of ignition system are you using. Many modern electronic ignition systems use a Hall Effect Sensor, and can NOT be static timed. The engine has to be running first. However, original Breaker Points as well as magnetic or light sensing ignition systems can be static timed. That's another long set of instructions I'm going to put off writing for now. Instead, let's just pre-position the rotor and distributor body... as follows:
Manually rotate the crankshaft to TDC with the two cam pulley timing marks aligned. "IF" the crank is at TDC, but the cam pulley marks are on far opposite sides of their pulleys, then continue turning the crank through one more full revolution, and back to TDC. The cam pulley timing marks should now align. If not, the cam timing is off... fix it before proceeding. From a 'correct' TDC...
Install the distributor cap, then follow the plug wire from the #1 spark plug back to it's connection on the distributor cap (you did leave it connected, didn't you?). Use a felt tip pen to mark the centerline location of that #1 cap terminal on the adjacent distributor body. Remove the cap. You need to know where the rotor is relative to the #1 terminal, but you have to remove the cap to see see the rotor. Which is why you put a mark on the distributor's body that aligns with the centerline of the #1 terminal on the cap. Remove the cap.
With the crank set to your desired ignition timing, the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade is where it will be when the coil fires. Your next task is to rotate the distributor's body, bringing the cap's #1 centerline mark into alignment with the rotor blade's leading edge.
"Leading edge"... The engine's normal direction of rotation is clockwise as viewed from in front of the engine looking back at it. That's not easy in the Esprit. So from a position behind (or alongside of) the engine, looking forward at the open distributor, normal direction of rotation would see the rotor & shaft rotating counter-clockwise. The rotor's brass blade terminal's leading edge is the side that is pointing in that counter-clockwise direction. Your goal is to bring the #1 terminals pen-mark on the body into alignment with the rotor's leading edge.
Grab the distributor with your left hand and apply firm inward pressure (ie, pushing it into the oil pump housing). Maintain that pressure while you loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw' enough that the distributor's body can be rotated with little effort. Rotate the body to bring the #1 terminal mark to the rotor's leading edge. This may require disconnecting the small 12v wires to the distributor such that you don't wind them up around the distributor.
Once they're roughly aligned, rotate the distributor body counter-clockwise (from your point of view behind, looking forward) and inch or so (non-critical). Then reverse, and return the #1 mark to precise alignment with the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade... STOP! Tighten the clamp's 'pinch screw' without rotating the distributor in the process. Release your inward hand pressure.
The ignition timing is now pre-aligned at your desired timing... if not precisely 'static timed' (we're splitting hairs here). It should be close enough to get the started. When the engine is running smoothly (give it a little time to warm up), use a strobe timing light to accurately set the ignition timing.
Not to beat a dead horse, but be sure to apply inward pressure on the distributor prior to loosening the clamp, and hold that pressure until you're done strobe-timing the ignition, and have retightened the 'pinch screw'.
Have fun,
Tim Engel
08/27/2022, 11:42AM, Toaph, toaph@...> wrote:
Okay, so I learned the hard way what my mechanic meant when he said that he can't adjust the timing or the distributor will pop out. Please see the quick video linked below. When I first tried to adjust the distributor, it was pretty well stuck, but as soon as I unstuck it, it slipped out and I can't get it secured again. If seems as if I can't push it in all the way, and even if I could it looks like there's too much of a gap in the plate for it to be able to be able to clamp down on it even though I have it as tight as I can get it. I don't know what this is supposed to be like. Any tips appreciated.
-- Toaph
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Re: Distributor Won't Clamp Down
Toaph,
As you have discovered, there is a bias spring inside the oil pump housing. If you just loosen the distributor's retaining clamp(ie, back-off on the screw that tightens/loosens the 'pinch' portion of the clamp), then the spring will pop the distributor out.
Note that there is also a slot in the clamp that fits over a stud sticking out of the back side of the oil pump housing. Then an Nyloc nut secures the clamp & distributor to the oil pump. "IF" you had loosened that nut instead of the clamp's "pinch screw", then the distributor wouldn't have popped out. Unfortunately, that curved slow only allows a few degrees of timing adjustment. If that's not enough, then you still end up having to revert to loosening the 'pinch screw'. In order to do that safely...
1) Grasp the end of the distributor with your left hand ('palm' it), and apply inward pressure to hold it secrely against the end of the oil pump housing.
2) Use a large, straight-blade screwdriver to loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw'. Not sloppy loose, just enough that you can rotate the distributor body. While still maintaining inward hand-pressure, rotate the distributor body as necessary to achieve the desired ignition timing.
3) With the timing set, and still maintaining inward hand pressure, re-tighten the 'pinch screw'. Only after the screw is tight, and the distributor secure, can you release your inward hand pressure and let go of the distributor. Get lazy or forgetful about the inward hand pressure at any time during all the above, and the distributor will pop out.
Getting the distributor back into the oil pump housing by simply pushing the distributor inward probably won't work. The clamp is bolted to the pump housing, and the chances of the hole in the clamp perfectly aligning with the hole in the pump housing are nil. And even a minor mis-alignment will prevent the distributor from sliding back into the pump housing as easily as it popped out. It's not gonna happen.
Instead, remove the Nyloc nut that holds the distributor clamp to the pump housing. Remove the distributor cap (easier than removing all 5 high-tension wires), then remove the distributor and clamp together.
With the distributor out of the car, slide the clamp all the way up the long shank, and onto the short shoulder at the base of the distributor's large head. Tighten the pinch screw. The distrib & clamp are now one, and you only have to align it with the one hole in the oil pump housing during installation. Except...
The distributor connects to the end of the auxiliary shaft via a drive dog and slot (keyway). The drive dog is offset (off-center) on the end of the shaft, so it will only mate with the slot one way.
Look into the end of the oil pump housing and observe the position of the keyway slot on the end of the shaft. Then observe the position of the drive dog on the end of the distributor shaft. Grasp the rotor with your left hand, and use it as a knob to rotate the shaft until the drive dog 'appears' to align with the keyway.
Insert the distributor into the oil pump, taking care to fit the slot in the clamp over the stud on the back end of the oil pump housing. The chance that the drive dog will drop into the keyway is nil, so the distributor will stop going in prior that being fully seated. Use the rotor to rotate the shaft back & forth while pushing the distributor inward, using the 'Braille method' to find the keyway. When you do, the drive dog will drop into the keyway, and the distributor will drop the rest of the way into the pump housing's bore. Thump... push it home.
Hold firm inward pressure on the distributor while you install the (preferably new) Nyloc nut and washer, and tighten them securely. Only now can you release the inward pressure on the distributor, let go, and relax.
Pedantically holding inward pressure on the distributor is what you should have done way back when you tried to set the ignition timing.
Now you're back to where you started, but the ignition timing is probably much further off than it was before.
What type of ignition system are you using. Many modern electronic ignition systems use a Hall Effect Sensor, and can NOT be static timed. The engine has to be running first. However, original Breaker Points as well as magnetic or light sensing ignition systems can be static timed. That's another long set of instructions I'm going to put off writing for now. Instead, let's just pre-position the rotor and distributor body... as follows:
Manually rotate the crankshaft to TDC with the two cam pulley timing marks aligned. "IF" the crank is at TDC, but the cam pulley marks are on far opposite sides of their pulleys, then continue turning the crank through one more full revolution, and back to TDC. The cam pulley timing marks should now align. If not, the cam timing is off... fix it before proceeding. From a 'correct' TDC...
Install the distributor cap, then follow the plug wire from the #1 spark plug back to it's connection on the distributor cap (you did leave it connected, didn't you?). Use a felt tip pen to mark the centerline location of that #1 cap terminal on the adjacent distributor body. Remove the cap. You need to know where the rotor is relative to the #1 terminal, but you have to remove the cap to see see the rotor. Which is why you put a mark on the distributor's body that aligns with the centerline of the #1 terminal on the cap. Remove the cap.
With the crank set to your desired ignition timing, the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade is where it will be when the coil fires. Your next task is to rotate the distributor's body, bringing the cap's #1 centerline mark into alignment with the rotor blade's leading edge.
"Leading edge"... The engine's normal direction of rotation is clockwise as viewed from in front of the engine looking back at it. That's not easy in the Esprit. So from a position behind (or alongside of) the engine, looking forward at the open distributor, normal direction of rotation would see the rotor & shaft rotating counter-clockwise. The rotor's brass blade terminal's leading edge is the side that is pointing in that counter-clockwise direction. Your goal is to bring the #1 terminals pen-mark on the body into alignment with the rotor's leading edge.
Grab the distributor with your left hand and apply firm inward pressure (ie, pushing it into the oil pump housing). Maintain that pressure while you loosen the distributor clamp's 'pinch screw' enough that the distributor's body can be rotated with little effort. Rotate the body to bring the #1 terminal mark to the rotor's leading edge. This may require disconnecting the small 12v wires to the distributor such that you don't wind them up around the distributor.
Once they're roughly aligned, rotate the distributor body counter-clockwise (from your point of view behind, looking forward) and inch or so (non-critical). Then reverse, and return the #1 mark to precise alignment with the leading edge of the rotor's brass blade... STOP! Tighten the clamp's 'pinch screw' without rotating the distributor in the process. Release your inward hand pressure.
The ignition timing is now pre-aligned at your desired timing... if not precisely 'static timed' (we're splitting hairs here). It should be close enough to get the started. When the engine is running smoothly (give it a little time to warm up), use a strobe timing light to accurately set the ignition timing.
Not to beat a dead horse, but be sure to apply inward pressure on the distributor prior to loosening the clamp, and hold that pressure until you're done strobe-timing the ignition, and have retightened the 'pinch screw'.
Have fun,
Tim Engel
08/27/2022, 11:42AM, Toaph, toaph@...> wrote:
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Okay, so I learned the hard way what my mechanic meant when he said that he can't adjust the timing or the distributor will pop out. Please see the quick video linked below. When I first tried to adjust the distributor, it was pretty well stuck, but as soon as I unstuck it, it slipped out and I can't get it secured again. If seems as if I can't push it in all the way, and even if I could it looks like there's too much of a gap in the plate for it to be able to be able to clamp down on it even though I have it as tight as I can get it. I don't know what this is supposed to be like. Any tips appreciated.
-- Toaph
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Re: Distributor Won't Clamp Down
The clamp goes over that boss, right? It seems like you need to pull the screw and clamp off, then get in that edge of the distributor that you can see that should be internal and then the boss or flange exposed and that¡¯s what the clamp screws down on, the way you have it now it looks like the clamp blocks it from going in. Gordon
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On Aug 27, 2022, at 11:42 AM, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
? Okay, so I learned the hard way what my mechanic meant when he said that he can't adjust the timing or the distributor will pop out.? Please see the quick video linked below.? When I first tried to adjust the distributor, it was pretty well stuck, but as soon as I unstuck it, it slipped out and I can't get it secured again.? If seems as if I can't push it in all the way, and even if I could it looks like there's too much of a gap in the plate for it to be able to be able to clamp down on it even though I have it as tight as I can get it.? I don't know what this is supposed to be like.? Any tips appreciated.
-- Toaph
:??
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Distributor Won't Clamp Down
Okay, so I learned the hard way what my mechanic meant when he said that he can't adjust the timing or the distributor will pop out.? Please see the quick video linked below.? When I first tried to adjust the distributor, it was pretty well stuck, but as soon as I unstuck it, it slipped out and I can't get it secured again.? If seems as if I can't push it in all the way, and even if I could it looks like there's too much of a gap in the plate for it to be able to be able to clamp down on it even though I have it as tight as I can get it.? I don't know what this is supposed to be like.? Any tips appreciated.
-- Toaph
:??
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Greetings,
I acquired the lightweight steel flywheel and clutch native to early Turbo, asking whether it may fitted to my S2?
Cheers
Steve
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Tim,
Thanks for your usual thorough, detailed response.? I have no intention of monkeying with the vacuum/centrifugal advance.? I just wanna twist the distributor a little until it runs better.? I'll be sure to report results back to the group.
-- Toaph
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 06:13:37 PM EDT, Tim Engel <tsengel@...> wrote:
Toaph,
The Vacuum Advance and Centrifutal Advance are beyond the typical owner's reach to change.? It can be done, but if you have to ask how, you're not up to the task... and the task is beyond the scope of this post.? Observe them, and make note of something not being right.? But consider fixing to be removing the distributor and sending it to a specialist... like 'Advanced Distributors' or 'The Distributor Doctor'.
Well... you do have some control over the vacuum advance.? You can connect the vacuum hose to? the capsule, or disconnect it.? All or nothing.? More on that later.
Your goal is to set the Static Advance.? If you're going by the? book, then that's...
12¡ã BTDC for the UK/ Euro Esprit S1, Spec 1,
. 8¡ã BTDC for the Federal Esprit S1, . Spec 2, 4 & 6
16¡ã BTDC for the UK/ Euro Esprit S1, Spec 3.
. . . "BEFORE" Top Dead Center
In order to 'isolate' Static Advance:
1) Disconnect and plug the vacuum hose from the diaphrgm capsule on the side of the distributor.
2) Adjust the idle rpm down to 900 rpm or less (I normally run mine at 1000-1100 rpm regardless of what the manual recommends).
With 1 & 2 done, the 'Idle' advance the strobe timing light will be just the Static Advance.
The manual spec's:
1)? 8¡ã BTDC Static Advance for USA/ Federal Spec 2 & 4 & 6., which will more than cover the Esprit S1.? Combined with 8¡ã of Vacuum Retard, the Total advance drops to 8¡ã Static - 8¡ã Retard = 0¡ã Total on closed throttle over-run or idle.? Emissions clean, but not Performance impressive.
2) 12¡ã BTDC for Spec 1 and 16¡ã BTDC Spec 3 for UK/ ROW (Euro) 907s (Esprit S1).? Spec 3 is the opposite of Federal Specs 2 & 4 & 6 above.? Static advance of 16¡ã - 0¡ã Vac Retard = 16¡ã Total Advance.? The full 16¡ã BTDC is still all there even during closed throttle over-run.
Vacuum RETARD is an emissions tool.? It affects how emissions 'clean' the engine runs on closed-throttle over-run, and at idle.? Retard is not desireable in a power or performance sense of the word.
IF you live in an area that requires your car to pass an annual emissions inspection, then it is best to keep the Vac Retard capsule installed on the distributor.? You could disconnect the vacuum hose to the capsule 364 days out of the year, re-connecting it on the 365th day,? before going in for the annual emissions test.
I've hotrodded my 1980 Esprit S2, and used to autocross it.? For normal street use, I set the static advance to 12-14¡ã BTDC, and for autocross I set it to 16¡ã BTDC, both with the vacuum hose to the vac retard capsule disconnected and plugged.? Ocassionally, I'd run 16¡ã BTDC on the street, but the engine felt 'edgie' trundling around in slow traffic.? So I'd re-connect the 8¡ã Vacuum Retard.? That gave the full 16¡ã BTDC when I put my foot down, and 8¡ã BTDC on over-run and idle.
The point is to determine what Static Advance you wish to run... emissions retard or performance advanced.? Then disconnect the vacuum hose from the vacuum retard capsule, adjust the Idle Speed down to <900 rpm, then use your strobe light to set the Static Advance.? The book says 8¡ã BTDC, mine was last set to 16¡ã BTDC.? Your choice.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vacuum Advance is another option, but it requires swapping a different vacuum diaphragm capsule onto the distributor.? They are available in configurations tht give different amounts of vac advance.
Vacuum advance will help bolster the low end torque & performance.? Manifold vacuum is the strongest when the butterlies are closed, or nearly so.? You'll get the maximum Vac Advance just off idle, then it will fade away as the throttle opens more and the rpm increases.? By the time it has faded away to nothing, the centrifugal advance will have added it's contnribution.? The Vac Advance is more of a temporary kick in the pants at off-idle and low rpm.? Many 907 owners complain about poor low-end torque and performance.? A little Vac Advance could help with that.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Lotus Naturally Aspirated? 907,? 911,? 912??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Distributor & Ignition Timing? (all figures? ¡À 2¡ã)??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
. . . . . . . . . . . . Euro . . Fed . . . Euro . . Fed
Spec Number:. 1 . . . . . 2. . . . . . 3. . . . 4&6
Vac Retard . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . Blanked . . 8¡ã
Static Adv . . . 12¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã . . . . 16¡ã. . . . 8¡ã
Idle Spd Adv . . 4¡ã. . . . . 0¡ã . . . . 16¡ã. . . . 0¡ã <<< 'Total' of Static & Vac.
Centrif. Adv . . (Vacuum Disconnected !!)
Below 1000 . . nil. . . . . nil. . . . . nil. . . . . nil
. . . . at 2000 . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã
. . . . at 4000 . 16¡ã. . . . 16¡ã. . . . 16¡ã. . . . 18¡ã
. . . . at 5000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22¡ã
. . . . at 6000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26¡ã
Set. at 3500 . 28¡ã. . . . 24¡ã. . . 32-34¡ã. . 22-24¡ã << ie, with strobe lite.
. . . . . . . . . . BTDC. . BTDC. . BTDC. . BTDC
Spec 1 = 1974 UK/ ROW, Dellorto
Spec 2 = 1974 USA Fed,? Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 3 = 1975 UK/ ROW, Dellorto
Spec 4 = 1975 USA Fed,? Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 5 = 1976-80 ROW (Euro), Dellorto
Spec 6 = 1976-79 USA Fed,? Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 7 = 1978-80 USA Fed 48 State,? Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 8 = 1980 USA Fed California,? Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 9 = 1980-Onward, ROW (Euro), Dellorto
Only 907 Variants to this point.
Regards,
Tim Engel
|
Re: Cam pulley upgrade performance tests
Okay, my bad. I was concentrating on too many other things at the time, and don't know enough on the subject, other than what you've tried to teach me (yet I still haven't completely mastered yet.)
Thanks for catching me on that. I'll study more before I delve into this arena.
Bill
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Tim Engel Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 9:31 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Cam pulley upgrade performance tests Bill, You wrote: and have 115 MOP for both intake and exhaust. You 'WANT' 115 IN / 115 EX cam timing?? The 110 MOP is the design-correct MOP for the stock C-cams (both J-H and Federal Lotus 907s), and the engine will perform better with it than with the early J-H 115 MOP timing. The 115 MOP is an emissions setting that makes the engine feel lethargic, and short on power ('cuz it is). Late in the engine's development for use in the Jensen-Healey, the 907 met the Federal emissions standards for 1972-73. Then the Federal Gov't released the future standards for 1974. While the 907 still passed the new standard, it was now by such narrow margin that it left no room for manufacturing tolerances or wear during normal use. Since neither Jensen nor Lotus had deep enough pockets to pay for repeating the expensive certification progrm every time a new standard was issued, the joint-decision was made to modify the 907 engine to meet the future 1974 standard with the very first production engines in 1972. That was done simply by retarding the intake 5 degrees, and advancing the exhaust 5 degrees. That increased the MOP from 110 to 115, and reduced the overlap from 52 to 42 degrees... a 10 degree change. With that timing change, the 907 comfortably passed the Federal Emissions Standard through the 1974 introduction. However, the 'cost' of the change was about 4 BHP, and a less urgent/ energetic personality for the 907. That's the engine that went to production in the Jensen-Healey. Jensen-Healey Stock C-Cams at 110 & 115 MOPs Lotus . . JH 110¡ã . . 115¡ã . . MOP 26¡ã . . . . 21¡ã . . Intake Opens,. . BTDC 66¡ã . . . . 71¡ã . . Intake Closes, . .ABDC 66¡ã . . . . 71¡ã . . Exhaust Opens, BBDC 26¡ã . . . . 21¡ã . . Exhaust Closes, ATDC 272¡ã . . 272¡ã . . Duration (Dave Smith DS2 = 280) 52¡ã . . . . 42¡ã . . Overlap While the duration is the same, the 115 IN/ 115 EX timing reduces the overlap by 10 degrees, from 52 to 42. 110 and 115 MOPs both exist on the same pulleys, whether the timing marks are present or not... You just need to know where to find them. Given a choice, the 110 MOP is by far the better way to go for an otherwise stock J-H, and early Lotus 907s with C-cams. Lotus never used 115 MOP on any of it's own production engines. Regards, Tim Engel 08/17/2022, 3:20PM, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote: Gents,
I plan on doing a cam pulley upgrade soon. I think I can just flip the exhaust cam, and I have a C pulley from a JH for the intake, and have 115 MOP for both intake and exhaust.
I thought I¡¯d do some before and after performance tests, just to document the improvements. I don¡¯t have a dynamometer or rolling road available to me. I thought I¡¯d try to get an app for my phone to measure 0-60 times, and try to run the tests on similar days. I¡¯ll also record video of engine response, and of course engine noise.
Anyone think of anything else that I should record?
Bill -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com
|
Re: Cam pulley upgrade performance tests
Bill, You wrote: and have 115 MOP for both intake and exhaust. You 'WANT' 115 IN / 115 EX cam timing?? The 110 MOP is the design-correct MOP for the stock C-cams (both J-H and Federal Lotus 907s), and the engine will perform better with it than with the early J-H 115 MOP timing. The 115 MOP is an emissions setting that makes the engine feel lethargic, and short on power ('cuz it is). Late in the engine's development for use in the Jensen-Healey, the 907 met the Federal emissions standards for 1972-73. Then the Federal Gov't released the future standards for 1974. While the 907 still passed the new standard, it was now by such narrow margin that it left no room for manufacturing tolerances or wear during normal use. Since neither Jensen nor Lotus had deep enough pockets to pay for repeating the expensive certification progrm every time a new standard was issued, the joint-decision was made to modify the 907 engine to meet the future 1974 standard with the very first production engines in 1972. That was done simply by retarding the intake 5 degrees, and advancing the exhaust 5 degrees. That increased the MOP from 110 to 115, and reduced the overlap from 52 to 42 degrees... a 10 degree change. With that timing change, the 907 comfortably passed the Federal Emissions Standard through the 1974 introduction. However, the 'cost' of the change was about 4 BHP, and a less urgent/ energetic personality for the 907. That's the engine that went to production in the Jensen-Healey. Jensen-Healey Stock C-Cams at 110 & 115 MOPs Lotus . . JH 110¡ã . . 115¡ã . . MOP 26¡ã . . . . 21¡ã . . Intake Opens,. . BTDC 66¡ã . . . . 71¡ã . . Intake Closes, . .ABDC 66¡ã . . . . 71¡ã . . Exhaust Opens, BBDC 26¡ã . . . . 21¡ã . . Exhaust Closes, ATDC 272¡ã . . 272¡ã . . Duration (Dave Smith DS2 = 280) 52¡ã . . . . 42¡ã . . Overlap While the duration is the same, the 115 IN/ 115 EX timing reduces the overlap by 10 degrees, from 52 to 42. 110 and 115 MOPs both exist on the same pulleys, whether the timing marks are present or not... You just need to know where to find them. Given a choice, the 110 MOP is by far the better way to go for an otherwise stock J-H, and early Lotus 907s with C-cams. Lotus never used 115 MOP on any of it's own production engines. Regards, Tim Engel 08/17/2022, 3:20PM, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote: Gents,
I plan on doing a cam pulley upgrade soon. I think I can just flip the exhaust cam, and I have a C pulley from a JH for the intake, and have 115 MOP for both intake and exhaust.
I thought I¡¯d do some before and after performance tests, just to document the improvements. I don¡¯t have a dynamometer or rolling road available to me. I thought I¡¯d try to get an app for my phone to measure 0-60 times, and try to run the tests on similar days. I¡¯ll also record video of engine response, and of course engine noise.
Anyone think of anything else that I should record?
Bill
|
Re: Cam pulley upgrade performance tests
Give 'er a go Bill, but I'd expect the 115 MOP to under-perform. The 907 is short on grunt until well into the revs and the 115 MOP will push the power upward as compared to 104.
Cheers
|
Toaph,
The Vacuum Advance and Centrifutal Advance are beyond the typical owner's reach to change. It can be done, but if you have to ask how, you're not up to the task... and the task is beyond the scope of this post. Observe them, and make note of something not being right. But consider fixing to be removing the distributor and sending it to a specialist... like 'Advanced Distributors' or 'The Distributor Doctor'.
Well... you do have some control over the vacuum advance. You can connect the vacuum hose to the capsule, or disconnect it. All or nothing. More on that later.
Your goal is to set the Static Advance. If you're going by the book, then that's...
12¡ã BTDC for the UK/ Euro Esprit S1, Spec 1,
. 8¡ã BTDC for the Federal Esprit S1, . Spec 2, 4 & 6
16¡ã BTDC for the UK/ Euro Esprit S1, Spec 3.
. . . "BEFORE" Top Dead Center
In order to 'isolate' Static Advance:
1) Disconnect and plug the vacuum hose from the diaphrgm capsule on the side of the distributor.
2) Adjust the idle rpm down to 900 rpm or less (I normally run mine at 1000-1100 rpm regardless of what the manual recommends).
With 1 & 2 done, the 'Idle' advance the strobe timing light will be just the Static Advance.
The manual spec's:
1) 8¡ã BTDC Static Advance for USA/ Federal Spec 2 & 4 & 6., which will more than cover the Esprit S1. Combined with 8¡ã of Vacuum Retard, the Total advance drops to 8¡ã Static - 8¡ã Retard = 0¡ã Total on closed throttle over-run or idle. Emissions clean, but not Performance impressive.
2) 12¡ã BTDC for Spec 1 and 16¡ã BTDC Spec 3 for UK/ ROW (Euro) 907s (Esprit S1). Spec 3 is the opposite of Federal Specs 2 & 4 & 6 above. Static advance of 16¡ã - 0¡ã Vac Retard = 16¡ã Total Advance. The full 16¡ã BTDC is still all there even during closed throttle over-run.
Vacuum RETARD is an emissions tool. It affects how emissions 'clean' the engine runs on closed-throttle over-run, and at idle. Retard is not desireable in a power or performance sense of the word.
IF you live in an area that requires your car to pass an annual emissions inspection, then it is best to keep the Vac Retard capsule installed on the distributor. You could disconnect the vacuum hose to the capsule 364 days out of the year, re-connecting it on the 365th day, before going in for the annual emissions test.
I've hotrodded my 1980 Esprit S2, and used to autocross it. For normal street use, I set the static advance to 12-14¡ã BTDC, and for autocross I set it to 16¡ã BTDC, both with the vacuum hose to the vac retard capsule disconnected and plugged. Ocassionally, I'd run 16¡ã BTDC on the street, but the engine felt 'edgie' trundling around in slow traffic. So I'd re-connect the 8¡ã Vacuum Retard. That gave the full 16¡ã BTDC when I put my foot down, and 8¡ã BTDC on over-run and idle.
The point is to determine what Static Advance you wish to run... emissions retard or performance advanced. Then disconnect the vacuum hose from the vacuum retard capsule, adjust the Idle Speed down to <900 rpm, then use your strobe light to set the Static Advance. The book says 8¡ã BTDC, mine was last set to 16¡ã BTDC. Your choice.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vacuum Advance is another option, but it requires swapping a different vacuum diaphragm capsule onto the distributor. They are available in configurations tht give different amounts of vac advance.
Vacuum advance will help bolster the low end torque & performance. Manifold vacuum is the strongest when the butterlies are closed, or nearly so. You'll get the maximum Vac Advance just off idle, then it will fade away as the throttle opens more and the rpm increases. By the time it has faded away to nothing, the centrifugal advance will have added it's contnribution. The Vac Advance is more of a temporary kick in the pants at off-idle and low rpm. Many 907 owners complain about poor low-end torque and performance. A little Vac Advance could help with that.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Lotus Naturally Aspirated 907, 911, 912
Distributor & Ignition Timing (all figures ¡À 2¡ã)
. . . . . . . . . . . . Euro . . Fed . . . Euro . . Fed
Spec Number:. 1 . . . . . 2. . . . . . 3. . . . 4&6
Vac Retard . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . Blanked . . 8¡ã
Static Adv . . . 12¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã . . . . 16¡ã. . . . 8¡ã
Idle Spd Adv . . 4¡ã. . . . . 0¡ã . . . . 16¡ã. . . . 0¡ã <<< 'Total' of Static & Vac.
Centrif. Adv . . (Vacuum Disconnected !!)
Below 1000 . . nil. . . . . nil. . . . . nil. . . . . nil
. . . . at 2000 . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã. . . . . 8¡ã
. . . . at 4000 . 16¡ã. . . . 16¡ã. . . . 16¡ã. . . . 18¡ã
. . . . at 5000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22¡ã
. . . . at 6000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26¡ã
Set. at 3500 . 28¡ã. . . . 24¡ã. . . 32-34¡ã. . 22-24¡ã << ie, with strobe lite.
. . . . . . . . . . BTDC. . BTDC. . BTDC. . BTDC
Spec 1 = 1974 UK/ ROW, Dellorto
Spec 2 = 1974 USA Fed, Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 3 = 1975 UK/ ROW, Dellorto
Spec 4 = 1975 USA Fed, Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 5 = 1976-80 ROW (Euro), Dellorto
Spec 6 = 1976-79 USA Fed, Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 7 = 1978-80 USA Fed 48 State, Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 8 = 1980 USA Fed California, Zenith-Stromberg
Spec 9 = 1980-Onward, ROW (Euro), Dellorto
Only 907 Variants to this point.
Regards,
Tim Engel
|
Cam pulley upgrade performance tests
Gents, ? I plan on doing a cam pulley upgrade soon. I think I can just flip the exhaust cam, and I have a C pulley from a JH for the intake, and have 115 MOP for both intake and exhaust. ? I thought I¡¯d do some before and after performance tests, just to document the improvements. I don¡¯t have a dynamometer or rolling road available to me. I thought I¡¯d try to get an app for my phone to measure 0-60 times, and try to run the tests on similar days. I¡¯ll also record video of engine response, and of course engine noise. ? Anyone think of anything else that I should record? ? Bill
|
Interesting point about specifying settings for emissions rather than performance.? I will definitely be taking timing readings and recording them with the corresponding anecdotal findings.? Since college I've gained a lot of experience as a data analyst and quality assurance specialist, and will be applying those disciplines in this case.? Thanks to everyone for the advice.? I'll report back on how it goes.
-- Toaph
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 12:27:03 PM EDT, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote:
Something else to keep in mind is that the WSM has specs for what Lotus had to do to get the engine to pass emission standards in the colonies. It wasn¡¯t necessarily proving for the best running engine. ? Bill ?
From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Bill Galbraith Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:08 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? Well, yes, it is a bit of trial, but you are also using a timing light to figure out where it is, and when you advance it a couple degrees, what happens. It¡¯s called science ?? Take notes of what the timing is, and what you like/dislike about it. ? Yes, if you loosen the distributor hold down clamp too much, the distributor can pop out. Thus the paint mark. When you go to more it, loosen the clamp just enough to be able to turn the distributor, which is barely loosening it. ? Bill ? ? I am running electronic ignition.?? A friend in college once told me, "You don't need a timing light.? Take it out and step on it.? You'll know if the timing is right or not."? Sounds similar to the advice you're giving me.? That's where I'll go next. Now all I need to worry about is adjusting the distributor.? My mechanic told me that when he tried to set the timing, the distributor "popped out."? But he's told me in the past things that turned out to be utter bullshit, so I'll find out for myself soon enough (I keep going back to him because he's lenient with the state inspection). On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:22:49 AM EDT, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote: Toaph, ? The vacuum pot on the distributor is actually a vacuum retard, not a vacuum advance. It retards the timing when you close the throttle, making the air clean enough for birds and butterflies¡ NOT. Most people remove this when they are doing any distributor work. ? Hopefully you are running an electronic ignition. If you are still running with points, change it out. You will notice a HUGE improvement. ? The specs that you quote are for the Domestic (European) spec with Dellortos carbs, which would also indicate Domestic cam pulleys. If so, set the engine speed to 3,500-4,000 rpm as detailed in the WSM and set your timing to 25 deg BTDC. That should give you 7-11 deg at idle. You can actually bump that up a degree or two. ? North American spec is 16 deg at 2,500 rpm (ZS carbs, boring cam pulleys). You can bump that up as well, to 10-12 deg. ? Sometimes it¡¯s best to just play around with it and see what works best for you. As painful as it is, it requires you to test then drive. I know, that means you have to drive your car a lot. Suck it up, buttercup ? ? Once you find the sweet spot, I recommend taking some paint and marking the distributor and housing with a line so that if the distributor comes out, you can get it back to about the same spot. Also write down some notes to yourself on where you are and how you got there, so that in a couple years, when you have to do this again, you don¡¯t have to relearn everything. ? Good luck, Bill ? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
|
Something else to keep in mind is that the WSM has specs for what Lotus had to do to get the engine to pass emission standards in the colonies. It wasn¡¯t necessarily proving for the best running engine. ? Bill ?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Bill Galbraith Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:08 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? Well, yes, it is a bit of trial, but you are also using a timing light to figure out where it is, and when you advance it a couple degrees, what happens. It¡¯s called science ?? Take notes of what the timing is, and what you like/dislike about it. ? Yes, if you loosen the distributor hold down clamp too much, the distributor can pop out. Thus the paint mark. When you go to more it, loosen the clamp just enough to be able to turn the distributor, which is barely loosening it. ? Bill ? ? I am running electronic ignition.?? A friend in college once told me, "You don't need a timing light.? Take it out and step on it.? You'll know if the timing is right or not."? Sounds similar to the advice you're giving me.? That's where I'll go next. Now all I need to worry about is adjusting the distributor.? My mechanic told me that when he tried to set the timing, the distributor "popped out."? But he's told me in the past things that turned out to be utter bullshit, so I'll find out for myself soon enough (I keep going back to him because he's lenient with the state inspection). On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:22:49 AM EDT, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote: Toaph, ? The vacuum pot on the distributor is actually a vacuum retard, not a vacuum advance. It retards the timing when you close the throttle, making the air clean enough for birds and butterflies¡ NOT. Most people remove this when they are doing any distributor work. ? Hopefully you are running an electronic ignition. If you are still running with points, change it out. You will notice a HUGE improvement. ? The specs that you quote are for the Domestic (European) spec with Dellortos carbs, which would also indicate Domestic cam pulleys. If so, set the engine speed to 3,500-4,000 rpm as detailed in the WSM and set your timing to 25 deg BTDC. That should give you 7-11 deg at idle. You can actually bump that up a degree or two. ? North American spec is 16 deg at 2,500 rpm (ZS carbs, boring cam pulleys). You can bump that up as well, to 10-12 deg. ? Sometimes it¡¯s best to just play around with it and see what works best for you. As painful as it is, it requires you to test then drive. I know, that means you have to drive your car a lot. Suck it up, buttercup ? ? Once you find the sweet spot, I recommend taking some paint and marking the distributor and housing with a line so that if the distributor comes out, you can get it back to about the same spot. Also write down some notes to yourself on where you are and how you got there, so that in a couple years, when you have to do this again, you don¡¯t have to relearn everything. ? Good luck, Bill ? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
|
So for what it's worth, my 2 cents. Yes, the distributor will easily pop out when the clamp is loosened as it is spring-loaded and and on a dog drive rather than the more familiar helical gear. As to timing, and all things technical in operating a Lotus, one is wise to KNOW rather than guess the metrics. Sure, check out how the car feels driving after making changes to the timing but certainly DO read the figures and keep track. The manner in which Lotus specify timing is quite odd as I understand it, describing STATIC in overall terms but DISTRIBUTOR as stand-alone, not making clear that the total advance comes to be the sum of the 2. Having declined to clarify that important aspect in the manual they then proceed to specify what idle speed timing ( overall ) one should expect to see once the STATIC is set to spec. Somewhat confusing as I see it but justified, I suppose, in that idle timing is a critical component of emissions control. As Bill advises, chuck the vacuum retard.
In summary, DISTRIBUTOR figures are what is built in to the centrifugal curve mechanism within that, STATIC is what one sets in reference to the flywheel markings with the engine not running, and TOTAL ( again, not addressed directly in the Lotus manual ) is what one may see with a timing light on the flywheel with the engine spinning above 2500 RPM when applying the Dellorto specs.?
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Well, yes, it is a bit of trial, but you are also using a timing light to figure out where it is, and when you advance it a couple degrees, what happens. It¡¯s called science ?? Take notes of what the timing is, and what you like/dislike about it. ? Yes, if you loosen the distributor hold down clamp too much, the distributor can pop out. Thus the paint mark. When you go to more it, loosen the clamp just enough to be able to turn the distributor, which is barely loosening it. ? Bill ?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:52 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected]Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am running electronic ignition.?? A friend in college once told me, "You don't need a timing light.? Take it out and step on it.? You'll know if the timing is right or not."? Sounds similar to the advice you're giving me.? That's where I'll go next. Now all I need to worry about is adjusting the distributor.? My mechanic told me that when he tried to set the timing, the distributor "popped out."? But he's told me in the past things that turned out to be utter bullshit, so I'll find out for myself soon enough (I keep going back to him because he's lenient with the state inspection). On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:22:49 AM EDT, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote: Toaph, ? The vacuum pot on the distributor is actually a vacuum retard, not a vacuum advance. It retards the timing when you close the throttle, making the air clean enough for birds and butterflies¡ NOT. Most people remove this when they are doing any distributor work. ? Hopefully you are running an electronic ignition. If you are still running with points, change it out. You will notice a HUGE improvement. ? The specs that you quote are for the Domestic (European) spec with Dellortos carbs, which would also indicate Domestic cam pulleys. If so, set the engine speed to 3,500-4,000 rpm as detailed in the WSM and set your timing to 25 deg BTDC. That should give you 7-11 deg at idle. You can actually bump that up a degree or two. ? North American spec is 16 deg at 2,500 rpm (ZS carbs, boring cam pulleys). You can bump that up as well, to 10-12 deg. ? Sometimes it¡¯s best to just play around with it and see what works best for you. As painful as it is, it requires you to test then drive. I know, that means you have to drive your car a lot. Suck it up, buttercup ? ? Once you find the sweet spot, I recommend taking some paint and marking the distributor and housing with a line so that if the distributor comes out, you can get it back to about the same spot. Also write down some notes to yourself on where you are and how you got there, so that in a couple years, when you have to do this again, you don¡¯t have to relearn everything. ? Good luck, Bill ? ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
|
I am running electronic ignition.??
A friend in college once told me, "You don't need a timing light.? Take it out and step on it.? You'll know if the timing is right or not."? Sounds similar to the advice you're giving me.? That's where I'll go next.
Now all I need to worry about is adjusting the distributor.? My mechanic told me that when he tried to set the timing, the distributor "popped out."? But he's told me in the past things that turned out to be utter bullshit, so I'll find out for myself soon enough (I keep going back to him because he's lenient with the state inspection).
--? Toaph
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:22:49 AM EDT, Bill Galbraith <lotus@...> wrote:
Toaph, ? The vacuum pot on the distributor is actually a vacuum retard, not a vacuum advance. It retards the timing when you close the throttle, making the air clean enough for birds and butterflies¡ NOT. Most people remove this when they are doing any distributor work. ? Hopefully you are running an electronic ignition. If you are still running with points, change it out. You will notice a HUGE improvement. ? The specs that you quote are for the Domestic (European) spec with Dellortos carbs, which would also indicate Domestic cam pulleys. If so, set the engine speed to 3,500-4,000 rpm as detailed in the WSM and set your timing to 25 deg BTDC. That should give you 7-11 deg at idle. You can actually bump that up a degree or two. ? North American spec is 16 deg at 2,500 rpm (ZS carbs, boring cam pulleys). You can bump that up as well, to 10-12 deg. ? Sometimes it¡¯s best to just play around with it and see what works best for you. As painful as it is, it requires you to test then drive. I know, that means you have to drive your car a lot. Suck it up, buttercup ? ? Once you find the sweet spot, I recommend taking some paint and marking the distributor and housing with a line so that if the distributor comes out, you can get it back to about the same spot. Also write down some notes to yourself on where you are and how you got there, so that in a couple years, when you have to do this again, you don¡¯t have to relearn everything. ? Good luck, Bill ? ? ? ?
From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:53 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
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Toaph, ? The vacuum pot on the distributor is actually a vacuum retard, not a vacuum advance. It retards the timing when you close the throttle, making the air clean enough for birds and butterflies¡ NOT. Most people remove this when they are doing any distributor work. ? Hopefully you are running an electronic ignition. If you are still running with points, change it out. You will notice a HUGE improvement. ? The specs that you quote are for the Domestic (European) spec with Dellortos carbs, which would also indicate Domestic cam pulleys. If so, set the engine speed to 3,500-4,000 rpm as detailed in the WSM and set your timing to 25 deg BTDC. That should give you 7-11 deg at idle. You can actually bump that up a degree or two. ? North American spec is 16 deg at 2,500 rpm (ZS carbs, boring cam pulleys). You can bump that up as well, to 10-12 deg. ? Sometimes it¡¯s best to just play around with it and see what works best for you. As painful as it is, it requires you to test then drive. I know, that means you have to drive your car a lot. Suck it up, buttercup ? ? Once you find the sweet spot, I recommend taking some paint and marking the distributor and housing with a line so that if the distributor comes out, you can get it back to about the same spot. Also write down some notes to yourself on where you are and how you got there, so that in a couple years, when you have to do this again, you don¡¯t have to relearn everything. ? Good luck, Bill ? ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 10:53 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Setting the Timing? ? I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
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I am checking the timing on my federal S1, and I need some tutoring.? I know how to use a timing light, but I don't have any practical experience with it.? The attached image shows where it's currently set.? My understanding is that this is about 8 degrees before top dead center (as opposed to 8 degrees AFTER top dead center).? My manual says it should be 9 degrees BTDC static and 25 degrees BTDC above 2500RPM.? Next time I go out I'll disconnect the vacuum advance and rev it up to see where it goes.? At this point I just want to confirm that I'm properly interpreting what I'm seeing, and that I know what I should be looking for.? Thanks for any help/advice.
-- Toaph
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West Coast Lotus Meet - Early Bird
Greetings Fellow Esprit Owners;
The San Diego Lotus Club is hosting this year¡¯s West Coast Lotus Meet over the 4 day weekend 20 - 23 October 2022. ?That date is coming up quickly. ?And so is the end of the $375 Early Bird reservation. ?Early Bird ends this Sunday night at midnight. ?Come Monday the price goes up to $425. ?
That entry fee is inclusive of all WCLM 22 events / meals and includes: ?Hosted wine tasting and Charcuterie at Mia Marie Vineyards in Escondido on?Thursday ?Treasure Hunt Rally w/ hosted lunch on Friday at Sunrise Vineyards in Ramona ?Hosted Banquet on Friday evening ?Mount Palomar Hillclimb w/ hosted lunch on Saturday ?Lotus Car Show / Concours w/ hosted lunch on?Sunday morning at Tidelands Park in Coronado
Think of catching the Early Bird discount as a financial version of ¡®Adding Lightness!¡¯
Find out more at??or?.
Register via??or?.
We¡¯re looking forward to seeing you all there.
Regards,
Ron Schramm
¡°A man must keep a little back shop?where he can be himself without reserve.?In solitude alone can he know true?freedom.¡± - Michel De Montaigne 1588
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Bill Galbraith
Ron Schramm