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Speaking of surnames, from my (current) Carroll surname and my positivity for CTS4466, wishful thinking attracts me to the Carroll sept of the Eoganachta Lock Lein in Co. Kerry (around the lakes of Kilarney) who were prominent in the 8th century or so (but faded after that), and were overrun by Moriarity and then Donoghue. I can trace my surname back to 1834 (let’s say 1800) but that leaves 1000 years for any number of NPEs to take place, as well as physical wanderings which might have taken place all over Europe in the meantime. All of that says that I should now consider it a mere coincidence that my Carroll surname matches that of a minor sept back in Kerry. This is further bolstered by the names closest to me down from the A809/A807 block. According to the Y Block tree at FTDNA, there are 12 different surnames associated with 13 terminal SNPs with various frequencies: 4 Lee, 4 Courtney, 2 Leahy, 2 Mahoney, and one each for Sykes, Mac Donald, Carroll, Meyers, Clopton, Windom, Connor, and Lynch. 20 men in all; only one Carroll (5%). Comments? — joe

If you happened to have visited the Y-DNA Warehouse in the last 24 hours, you'll see it's received a facelift and things have become easier or more complex to submit test data for Big Tree (or the new internal tree) depending on your use case. I have drafted a primer document for what has changed and made it available from Dropbox here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2getoiht57rzdoh/Warehouse-Primer.pdf?dl=1. The big difference is there are more steps to actually get to the point where you can upload the files: 1) You need to register an account. (If you submitted in the past, you should just request a password reset https://ydna-warehouse.org/password/forgot) 2) Every kit that you wish to upload needs a Subject. The Subject provides the ability to combine tests into a single Y-DNA signature e.g. it can roll up your STR Panel, Big Y 500, Big Y 700, and a WGS test into one. 3) The Subject needs to have one or more Kits added and then upload the raw data. STR Panels should be uploaded as a Sanger Sequencing test. Supported files include: VCF/BED (individually or ZIP) (NOTE** Use the ZIP option if you want to be available to Big Tree.) BAM or CRAM FTDNA CSV files for STRs or SNPs 23andMe Raw Data* AncestryDNA Raw Data* BISDNA Raw Data LivingDNA Raw Data * MyHeritage Raw Data * I'm planning to work on some screen-cast tutorials for each upload type for the less technically inclined. Thanks, James Kane

Hello folks, There is a demo of the Y-DNA Warehouse's tree render available as I wrap up the new site's base functionality. At the moment it only displays the tree structure to people who are not logged in and the account registration is not turned on yet. This link will land you on the current data loaded for R1b-CTS466 and subclades. The data is from a proof of concept run for the new tree builder earlier this year, so it's missing more branches than are included. http://ec2-3-142-49-184.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com:9000/tree?subclade=R1b-CTS4466 If you click the "More info..." button, you can see some information about the subclade and a pointer back to the project at FTDNA. Feel free to play around and give feed back. Clicking the breadcrumbs above the tree will let you navigate up the tree. The primary goal is to render much faster than FTDNA or YFULL's tree offerings and I've a few more tricks to get things going faster as it grows. For admins, if there are text blurbs you like to add to "More info..." on your branches of interest get in contact with me off-line. Thanks, James Kane

Hi Elizabeth, I have taken the liberty of editing the subject line again - to distinguish this thread from James's. No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the move of the Uí Liatháin and the Déisi to Wales and Cornwall in the 3rd / 4th century AD represents the source of all CTS4466 in Wales though it does warrant an examination of other CTS4466 subclades for Welsh-looking surnames and, indeed, those projects that might be associated with the Déisi. Unfortunately many of these latter have been a lot less active than our project and are focused on surnames rather than haplotypes. I agree with you that the tendency is for these mutations to be older than we have thought previously. I will contact Lara to see what scope there might be to analyse our three samples in more detail. All the best, John

Wow (again!) Neil !!! Though for the sake of bandwidth I have cut the tail off this thread and, also, renamed the subject to match the content ?. May I add some thoughts to this tour de force? Dáire Cerbba may well have been born in County Meath but all of his R-A541 'cousins' were still in Munster. The Late Iron Age remains CT14 found at Claristown in County Meath are indeed intriguing and I take your point about a possible relationship with Tara 25 km away. As for your observation that this man was so far from his Munster homeland, can I suggest that this was no further than the Uí Liatháin colonies in South Wales? These coastal people were clearly at home on the water and Claristown is only 3 km from the Irish Sea. As for the relationship between the Uí Liatháin and the Déise, Elizabeth has already pointed out the very different genetic backgrounds of these two groups. Although the Déisi may indeed have been a genetically mixed group, certain haplotypes / SNP markers and surnames are associated with them. Elizabeth has already pointed out R-CTS1751. The 'Princes' of the Déisi were notably the Uí Faolain (Phelans and Whelans) and the Uí Bric (O'Bric, Brick). Interestingly, there are a significant number of Welsh surnames amongst the men who are CTS1751+. I can't find any Y DNA results for Bric as such but they may match Whalen. And, seriously confusing for me, there are a significant number of men with the surnames Brazil / Brazile / Braswell / Bracewell who are also CTS1751+. Living times past in west Waterford next to other R-A151+ Brazils in east Cork! One source that you only referenced very briefly Neil is Eoin O'Neill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick' Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140. This article discusses in detail the Irish colonies in Wales and the genealogies associated with them. I'll leave you to read this yourself but if I read it right, the initial colonies in Pembroke and in Gower / Kidwelly were led by the Uí Liatháin but that the Pembroke / Dyfedd colony became dominated by the Déisi whilst the Uí Liatháin remained in Gower / Kidwelly until they were later pushed inland to Brycheiniog (Brecon) by the 'Sons of Cunedda'. O'Neill matches Brachán, the eponymous founder of the Brycheiniog dynasty, with MacBrocc, son of Eochu Liatháin. The correspondence beween the distribution of Ogam stones and Brycheiniog is striking! Neil, you will also notice that Brycheiniog borders Powys and was subsequently incorporated into the Kingdom of Powys. Incidentally, and I realise it is only one opinion among many, the late Professor Kenneth Jackson seems to shared David Stifter's view about Ogam being the creation of a single individual, but was himself of the view that this happened in one of the Irish colonies in Britain. Another idea that O'Neill discusses is the broc / badger theme. Despite the association between Welsh Ogam stones and the Uí Liatháin, none of the inscriptions seem to include any name resembling Liatháin. On the other hand, however, there are numerous references to BROC in various forms. Even though I don't speak Irish myself, I understand that the Irish word broc can also connote grey akin to liath? Even to this day people with mixed dark and grey hair can be nicknamed 'Badger'! O'Neill also discusses the Attacotti. Who these people were and how they related to the Scotti remains problematic. They were clearly distinguished from the Scotti and their name has been the subject of much speculation. Especially since they are the only Irish tribal group incorporated as a group into the Roman Army. Neil, your reference to a possibly fourth century sarcophagus in Salona (now Solin) on the Croatian coast north of Dubrovnik with an inscription interpreted as that of a soldier 'e numero Ata[cottorum]' is news to me but clearly lines up with references to Irish and British troops in the army of Magnus Maximus who usurped Gratian to become the Emperor of the Western Empire. Who was defeated by the Emperor of the Eastern Empire,

Culture, invasions, druids, LaTene, Bronze and Iron Age sea commerce, archaeology, anthropology and deep DNA data analytics with genetic migrations — altogether inform this subject. While my son Evan’s and my FT kits exactly match, confirming our O’Sullivan lineage (FT43021), our DNA migration path is a puzzle. Haplogroup origins suggest an ancient journey from the Russian Federation (M269) through French Gaul (Brittany-P312) Devon/Cornwall (L21), leading to Ireland (CTS4466>L270). Kit data is scarce from France and Russian Federation, yet I’m able to confirm a distant Cyr cousin whose path to Louisiana began in France then led to the Acadian culture in Nova Scotia and Maine, before again being relocated by the British to Louisiana. Points on on the subject are Celtic cultures, languages and monuments. Standing stones and ogham stones are found largely in coastal Celtic regions of western Europe. Brittany is Celtic and holds huge fields of stone monuments. Bronze Age trade routes include Brittany, Britain, Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Insular Celtic cultures counted on druids for communications and spiritual traditions. It’s not surprising that Ogham stones’ primitive Irish draws from Latin coming from Roman language. I’ve read that some Bronze Age stones in Ireland were used hundreds of years later as Oghams, memorializing clan ancestors and marking central clan homeland. The photo from 2019 trip taken by the Kenmare River, in Sneem, County Kerry.

As a co-founder of this R1b-CTS4466 Plus Project (with Finbar O Mahony and Elizabeth), it is heartening to see such thorough scholarship of some its members (ref. the message below), but let’s ensure it is not lost in e-mails. Publishing in book form aside, the pukka way of retaining it is production of peer-reviewed papers in journals. With or without this, publishing via sites like Academia would retain it. Closer to home, presentation as articles deposited in our project’s forum files or inclusion in a (long) dedicated section on the R1b-CTS4466 Plus main website would be an option, in either case with all references to sources professionally cited. The advantage here is much easier access to edit and update. Deposition in the forum files will have limited access to public gaze, but while the authors are likely to further develop the articles in response to members’ comments or their own further studies this may suit them well. It should be understood that the author would have ownership and thus sole write access for updating and republishing purposes. Elizabeth, perhaps this is something you can organise, foster or delegate (but not to me!). I’m posting this publicly rather than privately as it might resonate with some of our members. Kind regards = Nigel McCarthy Sent from Mail for Windows From: O'Brien, Neil Sent: 07 September 2021 14:37 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo More and more Ogham stones have been documented since the 1940s, and more continue to be discovered. It is thought that there are about 400 in Britain and Ireland, the majority (330) are found in Ireland. The main concentration of Ogham activity is in the south, particularly the southwest, with a clustering in Kerry, stretching out along the southern coast, up through Waterford, Wexford and up to south Wicklow. In Cornwall and Devon, together, there are a dozen stones. England has a single stone known. There are 8 on the Isle of Man. There are 6 in Gaelic Dál Riata Scotland, but 29 found in areas of former Pictish Kingdoms, mainly along the east-coast of Scotland, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands. Uniquely the Pictish stones appear are in a non-Irish in language, the rest are exclusively in primitive Irish, with accompanying Latin alphabet script found in Wales. Undoubtedly Waterford-East Cork has an old dynastic link with Wales and it is suggested by many commentators, including David Stifter from Maynooth, that ‘this connection suggests itself as a channel of transmission for the art of writing between those two countries’. However the direct of travel is impossible to ascertain. The concentration in southwest Ireland might well suggest a west-east source of travel. Stifter also points out that scholars in the early and middle part of the 20th century, including Carney, were inclined to see in Ogham an Irish invention of great antiquity, going back to the 1st century A.D. (e.g. Carney 1975) or even earlier. Whereas the current thinking is that they are a phenomena that belongs to the early 5th Century (Sims-Williams). Harvey argues, given that the majority of Ogham stones belong to the ‘orthodox’ phase of Ogham stone creation, and are overwhelmingly written in primitive Irish, any time between the 1st and 5th century is possible, before the transition to old Irish in the 6th Century during the ‘Great Upheaval of the Phonological System’. Radio carbon dating is not effective on stone, and neither have the sites been satisfactorily archaeologically investigated. However the archaeological evidence of the Silchester Stone (dating to around 496) supports a late Antiquity origin. It is also noted that the emergence of Ogham could coincide with the arrival of Christianity in Ireland. Swift argues that Ogham was devised as a vernacular counterpart to Latin literacy - a prerequisite for embracing the Christian tradition. Therefore the emergence of ‘orthodox’ Ogham stones in the 4th Century or so (to split the difference) does not coincide with any particular shift in language, which might be expe

Hello Forum, I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project. Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster. Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD). A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy. Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois. He continues his amazing research on that. It's important to note, that DF21's 7 Septs of Laois doesn't include McEvoy/McAvoy, but A663 does. Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC. Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool). The origin of surname Hart is both MEATH and Durham Eng. Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591. Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory). Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli. Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones. All Welsh surnames. I've read that the origin for the surname McEvoy was WESTMEATH. Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated, back and forth, between Wales and Westmeath? Or were they originally in Ireland? Kingdoms of British Celts - Gangani & Deceangli (Decangi) (historyfiles.co.uk) ( https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainDeceangli.htm ) from article... " The tribes appear to have been split between Ireland ( https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/GaelsIreland.htm#Gaelic ) and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of Leinster ( https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/GaelsLeinster.htm ) ). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster." This article states they went from Leinster to Wales. But there's no proof they originated in Leinster. I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating some 4,000 year old FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh and a S1115+ burial in MEATH from 60-420AD. Therefore, FGC11134 was definitely in Ireland circa 4,000 years ago, and until FGC11134 (and CTS4466) bones are found in Wales, it will be hard to prove they originated there, too. There's no doubt A7751 and S1115 both include lots of Welsh surnames. Were they Deceangli? I will need to research more on that. Side note: Researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann (found in Leinster) might be ZZ32>L1402 (DF21's 7 Septs), Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 (Clan Muir) and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32. I would love your thoughts on this. Cheers, Sharon Kelly admin/A663