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Interesting blog article

 

Hello cousins!

FTDNA has a blog post on surname/clan/sept/kindreds and Y-DNA:? with an example including CTS4466+ Fitzpatrick/O'Mulpatricks.?

I had no idea that surname/genealogy resources existed beyond O'Hart, much less that they are far more extensive, so I thought I should?pass it along.

Cheers,

Mike
?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

Hi Greg,
Thanks for your reply. Don’t know about “closely” related, but you and Fran do have some sort of a paternal connection. I believe I’ve found your tree on Ancestry and will send a separate email to you about that so I’m not cluttering up this message feed.
?
You mentioned the Southern Irish Gedmatch project. For your info, we do have a Minihan surname project.
?
Will be in touch within a day or two.

Sue & Fran
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

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Hi there Susan, wife of Francis.

Nice to hear from you. And I also don’t understand it too well but it appears Fran and I are very closely related.

It is certainly something that Smith should appear. But I wouldn’t put anything past the Irish. And yes, Paul did give a great (and interesting) explanation on how Smith is here.

Given I have an even closer connection to Harry Moynihan (name so similar top Minihan and Minnehan - and I guess interchangeable) I am believing we may have only been Smith by occupation.

Interestingly, I was just removed from the Southern Irish gedmatch project because Smith isn’t on their surname list. Maybe I should tell them about the Moynihan/Minehan connection :)

I hope something more comes from the DNA. But I get the impression it’s a bit of a lottery.

Regards,

- Greg (Hobart, Tasmania)

On 26 Mar 2025, at 8:55?am, Francis & Susan Minnehan via groups.io <fransuem718@...> wrote:

Hi Greg,
?
I’m Susan Minnehan, wife of Francis Minnehan who is sitting on branch R-BY69984 along with Joseph A Minihan. Fran did the Y-500 and then Y-700 after matching with Joseph A. Minahan on 67 markers. They are also an autosomal dna match.
?
Unfortunately we don’t quite understand all of this but trust the many very knowledgeable people in this group such as Nigel and Paul can help us understand new developments as they happen.?

Best as we can tell, Fran’s great grandfather John Minihan/Moynihan was from county Limerick toward the border of Tipperary. John was born about 1820. He came to the United States mid 1850’s. I will now keep an eye out for the Smith surname as I continue to research.
?
Just wanted to say welcome.
?
Note to Paul, great explanation on why a Smith showed up on this part of the tree!
?
?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

Hi Greg,
?
I’m Susan Minnehan, wife of Francis Minnehan who is sitting on branch R-BY69984 along with Joseph A Minihan. Fran did the Y-500 and then Y-700 after matching with Joseph A. Minahan on 67 markers. They are also an autosomal dna match.
?
Unfortunately we don’t quite understand all of this but trust the many very knowledgeable people in this group such as Nigel and Paul can help us understand new developments as they happen.?

Best as we can tell, Fran’s great grandfather John Minihan/Moynihan was from county Limerick toward the border of Tipperary. John was born about 1820. He came to the United States mid 1850’s. I will now keep an eye out for the Smith surname as I continue to research.
?
Just wanted to say welcome.
?
Note to Paul, great explanation on why a Smith showed up on this part of the tree!
?
?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

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Hi, Nigel.

Many thanks for the reply. I am starting to feel like a Meenig :)

I will look out for the updated tree.

Simply fascinating and throws up a whole series of new challenges.

Regards,

- Greg

On 28 Feb 2025, at 10:14?am, Nigel McCarthy via groups.io <ndmccarthy10@...> wrote:

Greg,

I am responding also on behalf of the similar note you sent to my colleague Zena McCarthy Paice at the McCarthy Study.?

Without doubt your paternal origins have Mooney / Moynihan / McCarthy Muineagh (simply Meenig in many 19th?century records, without inserting 'McCarthy') roots.? All three seem to derive from the Irish Maonach, (genitive, and I think I was told possibly once pronounced, Maoineach). Moynihan is simply a diminutive. See Fig. 5 at??(scroll down to "Meenig / Muineagh"), where an alternative possibility of "Munsterman" is also suggested, but perhaps Mooney fits less well with this source.

Sheet 24 of my Irish Type II / McCarthy R-L21 Group A tree on the same site demonstrates the genetic proximity. (An update of this tree expected over the weekend will show analysis of your data).

This is NOT a reason to join the McCarthy Study. You are already in the right place!

Kind regards = Nigel McCarthy



From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]> on behalf of Greg Smith via??<gregs1955@...>
Sent:?27 February 2025 20:01
To:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>
Subject:?Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership
?
Thanks for the insight, Paul. It’s very open-ended and sounds fascinating (like everything in genealogy). I’m just comforted in the fact I’m from Ireland. Perhaps more people will surface in testing but it’s a bit of a lottery.
Regards,
- Greg

On 27 Feb 2025, at 4:16?pm, Paul O'Donnell via??<absentplodder@...> wrote:

Greg,
?
As you have Moynihan and Minnehan/Minahan on two of the three branches below A7752, I would put my money on that being your original Patrilineal Surname and this would have been in Ireland. FTE72338 has a mean origin date of about 1400CE (with a wide spread). If your ancestor had moved to England (or Scotland) at about this time it is when Patrilineal Surnames were being taken up there. ?It is possible that if his occupation was as a smith, then he took on this surname then. Alternatively, any of the other events that lead to changes of surname may have occurred.
?
?
Paul
From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Greg Smith via?
Sent:?Thursday, 27 February 2025 3:45 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?[R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership
?
As a newcomer to DNA matching, all I have to do is work out why I am here and how do I have a BigY match with a Mooney and a Moynihan (and a McCarthy). Sadly, my surname of Smith doesn’t lend itself to tracing ancestors too well.

My kit number is B260169 and I have been placed in R-FTE72338.

I’ll need to be guided by this group’s expertise.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

- Greg Smith?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

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Greg,

I am responding also on behalf of the similar note you sent to my colleague Zena McCarthy Paice at the McCarthy Study.?

Without doubt your paternal origins have Mooney / Moynihan / McCarthy Muineagh (simply Meenig in many 19th?century records, without inserting 'McCarthy') roots.? All three seem to derive from the Irish Maonach, (genitive, and I think I was told possibly once pronounced, Maoineach). Moynihan is simply a diminutive. See Fig. 5 at ?(scroll down to "Meenig / Muineagh"), where an alternative possibility of "Munsterman" is also suggested, but perhaps Mooney fits less well with this source.

Sheet 24 of my Irish Type II / McCarthy R-L21 Group A tree on the same site demonstrates the genetic proximity. (An update of this tree expected over the weekend will show analysis of your data).

This is NOT a reason to join the McCarthy Study. You are already in the right place!

Kind regards = Nigel McCarthy



From:[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Greg Smith via groups.io <gregs1955@...>
Sent:?27 February 2025 20:01
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject:?Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership
?
Thanks for the insight, Paul. It’s very open-ended and sounds fascinating (like everything in genealogy). I’m just comforted in the fact I’m from Ireland. Perhaps more people will surface in testing but it’s a bit of a lottery.
Regards,
- Greg

On 27 Feb 2025, at 4:16?pm, Paul O'Donnell via groups.io <absentplodder@...> wrote:

Greg,
?
As you have Moynihan and Minnehan/Minahan on two of the three branches below A7752, I would put my money on that being your original Patrilineal Surname and this would have been in Ireland. FTE72338 has a mean origin date of about 1400CE (with a wide spread). If your ancestor had moved to England (or Scotland) at about this time it is when Patrilineal Surnames were being taken up there. ?It is possible that if his occupation was as a smith, then he took on this surname then. Alternatively, any of the other events that lead to changes of surname may have occurred.
?
?
Paul
From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Greg Smith via
Sent:?Thursday, 27 February 2025 3:45 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?[R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership
?
As a newcomer to DNA matching, all I have to do is work out why I am here and how do I have a BigY match with a Mooney and a Moynihan (and a McCarthy). Sadly, my surname of Smith doesn’t lend itself to tracing ancestors too well.

My kit number is B260169 and I have been placed in R-FTE72338.

I’ll need to be guided by this group’s expertise.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

- Greg Smith?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

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Thanks for the insight, Paul. It’s very open-ended and sounds fascinating (like everything in genealogy). I’m just comforted in the fact I’m from Ireland. Perhaps more people will surface in testing but it’s a bit of a lottery.
Regards,
- Greg

On 27 Feb 2025, at 4:16?pm, Paul O'Donnell via groups.io <absentplodder@...> wrote:

Greg,
?
As you have Moynihan and Minnehan/Minahan on two of the three branches below A7752, I would put my money on that being your original Patrilineal Surname and this would have been in Ireland. FTE72338 has a mean origin date of about 1400CE (with a wide spread). If your ancestor had moved to England (or Scotland) at about this time it is when Patrilineal Surnames were being taken up there. ?It is possible that if his occupation was as a smith, then he took on this surname then. Alternatively, any of the other events that lead to changes of surname may have occurred.
?
?
Paul
From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?Greg Smith via?
Sent:?Thursday, 27 February 2025 3:45 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?[R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership
?
As a newcomer to DNA matching, all I have to do is work out why I am here and how do I have a BigY match with a Mooney and a Moynihan (and a McCarthy). Sadly, my surname of Smith doesn’t lend itself to tracing ancestors too well.

My kit number is B260169 and I have been placed in R-FTE72338.

I’ll need to be guided by this group’s expertise.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

- Greg Smith?
Re: Thanks for the membership

 

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Greg,

?

As you have Moynihan and Minnehan/Minahan on two of the three branches below A7752, I would put my money on that being your original Patrilineal Surname and this would have been in Ireland. FTE72338 has a mean origin date of about 1400CE (with a wide spread). If your ancestor had moved to England (or Scotland) at about this time it is when Patrilineal Surnames were being taken up there. ?It is possible that if his occupation was as a smith, then he took on this surname then. Alternatively, any of the other events that lead to changes of surname may have occurred.

?

?

Paul

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Greg Smith via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, 27 February 2025 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Thanks for the membership

?

As a newcomer to DNA matching, all I have to do is work out why I am here and how do I have a BigY match with a Mooney and a Moynihan (and a McCarthy). Sadly, my surname of Smith doesn’t lend itself to tracing ancestors too well.

My kit number is B260169 and I have been placed in R-FTE72338.

I’ll need to be guided by this group’s expertise.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

- Greg Smith

Thanks for the membership

 

As a newcomer to DNA matching, all I have to do is work out why I am here and how do I have a BigY match with a Mooney and a Moynihan (and a McCarthy). Sadly, my surname of Smith doesn’t lend itself to tracing ancestors too well.

My kit number is B260169 and I have been placed in R-FTE72338.

I’ll need to be guided by this group’s expertise.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

- Greg Smith

Screenshot 2025-02-27 at 3.43.15?pm.png

Re: Comes from the middle east

 

It's interesting, but has absolutely nothing to do with L21, CTS4466, etc. That is a very very different branch of R1b.?

Lucas McCaw?

On Wed, Jan 29, 2025, 6:12?p.m. Doun via <gutredson=[email protected]> wrote:

Just came across this thought it might be interesting...........


On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, 21:10 Mike via , <mxk1=[email protected]> wrote:
I believe "J" is Middle Eastern and apparently spread west throughout the Mediterranean.? My cousin's grandson (also my cousin, of course) has an Italian surname, so I expected he would be an "R" like the rest of us Europeans.? While his J is found in Italy 20% of the time, its greatest concentration is in Saudi Arabia.

On Tuesday, January 28, 2025 at 02:23:29 PM EST, Lucas McCaw via <lucasmccaw=[email protected]> wrote:


Nope,

None of that is correct. R has nothing do so with the middle east, Sumerian, etc. The haplogroups on this line diverged in western Europe over 4,500 years ago (which ancestrally came from the Pontic Steppes into eastern Europe 5,000-6,000 years ago).?

On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 12:12?p.m. Doun via <gutredson=[email protected]> wrote:
R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'. Facebook name is John G O Donovan.
Re: Comes from the middle east

Doun
 

Just came across this thought it might be interesting...........


On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, 21:10 Mike via , <mxk1=[email protected]> wrote:
I believe "J" is Middle Eastern and apparently spread west throughout the Mediterranean.? My cousin's grandson (also my cousin, of course) has an Italian surname, so I expected he would be an "R" like the rest of us Europeans.? While his J is found in Italy 20% of the time, its greatest concentration is in Saudi Arabia.

On Tuesday, January 28, 2025 at 02:23:29 PM EST, Lucas McCaw via <lucasmccaw=[email protected]> wrote:


Nope,

None of that is correct. R has nothing do so with the middle east, Sumerian, etc. The haplogroups on this line diverged in western Europe over 4,500 years ago (which ancestrally came from the Pontic Steppes into eastern Europe 5,000-6,000 years ago).?

On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 12:12?p.m. Doun via <gutredson=[email protected]> wrote:
R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'. Facebook name is John G O Donovan.
Re: Comes from the middle east

 

I believe "J" is Middle Eastern and apparently spread west throughout the Mediterranean.? My cousin's grandson (also my cousin, of course) has an Italian surname, so I expected he would be an "R" like the rest of us Europeans.? While his J is found in Italy 20% of the time, its greatest concentration is in Saudi Arabia.

On Tuesday, January 28, 2025 at 02:23:29 PM EST, Lucas McCaw via groups.io <lucasmccaw@...> wrote:


Nope,

None of that is correct. R has nothing do so with the middle east, Sumerian, etc. The haplogroups on this line diverged in western Europe over 4,500 years ago (which ancestrally came from the Pontic Steppes into eastern Europe 5,000-6,000 years ago).?

On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 12:12?p.m. Doun via <gutredson=[email protected]> wrote:
R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'. Facebook name is John G O Donovan.
Re: Two CTS4466 predecessors in Ireland 4,000 years ago?

 

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rs521 is a deletion on chr7 not a YDNA SNP.

DF13 has the highest concentrations of modern and ancient DNA in Western Europe. ?Sure you can find it all over the world, but you can’t read anything into that.

If you’re using Google’s AI features for research… don't do that.

James

On Jan 28, 2025, at 8:49?AM, Doun via groups.io <gutredson@...> wrote:

When I looked at this map yesterday I assumed that it must be a kurgan pontic step migration into Europe but now I don't think so.The rfgc11134 from 4000 years ago branched from rdf13 also rs521 also called rz2542 also rcts8221.I got this off Google.rs521 is all over the middle east,its on Google in Saudi arabia on a medical site for diabetes melitus.If I'm correct the chronology matches the city of eridu and it would be sumarian.I know that sounds a bit far fetched but it seems to be the case.Not sure if I'm right I'm not familiar with this dna sequencing I've only been looking at it since yesterday but you should be able to check it all on Google.
Re: Comes from the middle east

 

Nope,

None of that is correct. R has nothing do so with the middle east, Sumerian, etc. The haplogroups on this line diverged in western Europe over 4,500 years ago (which ancestrally came from the Pontic Steppes into eastern Europe 5,000-6,000 years ago).?

On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 12:12?p.m. Doun via <gutredson=[email protected]> wrote:
R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'. Facebook name is John G O Donovan.
Re: Two CTS4466 predecessors in Ireland 4,000 years ago?

Doun
 

When I looked at this map yesterday I assumed that it must be a kurgan pontic step migration into Europe but now I don't think so.The rfgc11134 from 4000 years ago branched from rdf13 also rs521 also called rz2542 also rcts8221.I got this off Google.rs521 is all over the middle east,its on Google in Saudi arabia on a medical site for diabetes melitus.If I'm correct the chronology matches the city of eridu and it would be sumarian.I know that sounds a bit far fetched but it seems to be the case.Not sure if I'm right I'm not familiar with this dna sequencing I've only been looking at it since yesterday but you should be able to check it all on Google.
Comes from the middle east

Doun
 

R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'. Facebook name is John G O Donovan.
Comes from the middle east

Doun
 

R1b-cts4466 branched from fgc11134 branched from rdf13 also known as rs521......Google it all over the middle east.....I'm new to this so possible wrong but that's what I could get when I googled it ....also have a look at my face book page post 'the oldest god'.
Re: First Pass of hs1 R-FGC11134 YDNA Tree Complete

 

Thank you James for your excellent and extensive efforts!
Best, JEF


On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 11:25?AM James Kane via <jkane=[email protected]> wrote:


The tree structure now reflects the results of the joint genotyping run.? The biggest changes are under the L270 Sullivans.? The old structure has been discarded for the more strongly scoring one in this pass.? Several new intermediate branches were found with the CP086569.2: prefix on the name, since as they are of course unnamed and I don't plan to do so.

Over the next few weeks I'll be verifying the private branches that you can't see.? Once that process is complete, I'll try restoring the age calculations.? I expect everything to become perceptibly older but don't have a feel for how much yet.

Once that's complete the "light blue" taxa nodes will be worked to see if additional branches can be identified.

I've de-identified everyone use the warehouse's Taxon ID's.? If you manage your own kit, you can go edit the Sample's information and change over to a FTDNA/YSEQ/etc kit# instead.? If I manage it, it's probably time to transfer it to you should you want to see the FTDNA kit. :)

CAVEAT: ?Do not run out to YSEQ and "Wish a SNP" on these.? Consider these highly experimental until I have a few months to get through the entire YDNA tree to see if there are areas that should never be include.

Thanks to everyone who provided the raw data to make this all possible in the first place!? If you missed this round, I'll probably be doing the next round in early summer.

James Kane
First Pass of hs1 R-FGC11134 YDNA Tree Complete

 



The tree structure now reflects the results of the joint genotyping run. ?The biggest changes are under the L270 Sullivans. ?The old structure has been discarded for the more strongly scoring one in this pass. ?Several new intermediate branches were found with the CP086569.2: prefix on the name, since as they are of course unnamed and I don't plan to do so.

Over the next few weeks I'll be verifying the private branches that you can't see. ?Once that process is complete, I'll try restoring the age calculations. ?I expect everything to become perceptibly older but don't have a feel for how much yet.

Once that's complete the "light blue" taxa nodes will be worked to see if additional branches can be identified.

I've de-identified everyone use the warehouse's Taxon ID's. ?If you manage your own kit, you can go edit the Sample's information and change over to a FTDNA/YSEQ/etc kit# instead. ?If I manage it, it's probably time to transfer it to you should you want to see the FTDNA kit. :)

CAVEAT: ?Do not run out to YSEQ and "Wish a SNP" on these. ?Consider these highly experimental until I have a few months to get through the entire YDNA tree to see if there are areas that should never be include.

Thanks to everyone who provided the raw data to make this all possible in the first place! ?If you missed this round, I'll probably be doing the next round in early summer.

James Kane
Re: -- When Will you Include SNP Testers without Big-Y?

 

I'm pretty much in full concurrence with Lucas. ?At the risk of offending some, I will go further with STRs and say they are most useful for matching dead people or newcomers who receive outdated testing advice. ?Everyone else has moved on to either targeted capture or even whole genome sequencing now that the cost is under $400. ?Long reads are where the cutting edge is and are very difficult to find a lab doing direct-2-consumer for these at an affordable price. ?I really think a 10-15x PacBio HiFi WGS would be the optimum next step. ?No-one offers it yet, perhaps I need to find a couple million for a startup. ?:D
?
When you have a SNP signature fully resolved to modern era, then STRs can be used to eke out a few more possible branches in the region. ?That's why I exposed the STR charts that extend all the way through what Big Y currently offers.

As far as including SNPs in my analysis, they are already integrated into the tree. ?I believe you are this last kit in the branch here:
?
There are two branches under CTS4466 which are defined by members taking their list of private SNPs from a Big Y and testing only those in a close relative. ?This requires that you have been fortunate enough to be able to winnow the list down by using your other matches though.

From the investigator SNP Report in the R1b-CTS4466 Plus warehouse project, it looks like you have one of the ten SNPs in the current block tested. ?So the strategy would be test the private variants in the two men who defined the block to see if you are closer to one of them, and then fall back to the other 9 equivalents should you fail to have success in the other tests. ?The worst case expense is equivalent to a 30x WGS from YSEQ. ?I understand that this is a large investment that not everyone can manage, but expect the prices to continue to come down as the companies making the sequencers continue to improve the cost of doing the tests.
?
Any ways... welcome to the wild world of genetic genealogy. ?You can invest as much or as little as you can afford and try to learn more about your ancestor's origins using many different approaches.

James Kane
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