|
Hello Forum, I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.? It's important to note, that DF21's 7 Septs of Laois doesn't include McEvoy/McAvoy, but A663 does. Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both MEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.? I've read that the origin for the surname McEvoy was WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated, back and forth, between Wales and Westmeath?? Or were they originally in Ireland???? from article... " The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."? ??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales. But there's no proof they originated in Leinster. I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating some 4,000 year old FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh and a S1115+ burial in MEATH from 60-420AD.? Therefore, FGC11134 was definitely in Ireland circa 4,000 years ago, and until FGC11134 (and CTS4466) bones are found in Wales, it will be hard to prove they originated there, too.? There's no doubt A7751 and S1115 both include lots of Welsh surnames.? Were they Deceangli?? ?I will need to research more on that. Side note:? Researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann (found in Leinster) might be ZZ32>L1402 (DF21's 7 Septs), Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 (Clan Muir) and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32. I would love your thoughts on this. Cheers, Sharon Kelly admin/A663 
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Sharon,
Fascinating!
I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain.
The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by
Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish!
John.
Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Dear John,
? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642).
? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837.
? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.?
? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes,
As ever,
Tim Erwin
? ? ? ??
Sharon,
Fascinating!
I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain.
The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by
Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish!
John.
Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Tim ? FT83642 is under R-A15518 which is a sibling of R-A155 under R-A89. I think that you are working of an old version of the tree. ? Your Stewart/Stuart matches are commonly BY78453 or BY11989.1 which breaks from our ancestry at DF13, which is significantly older than CTS4466. These Scots split from us about the time or slightly before the R1b invasion of the British Isles. It is convergence that has led them to be STR matches with us. ? Paul O’Donnell ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Daniel Erwin
Sent: Wednesday, 11 August 2021 10:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath? Dear John, ? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642). ? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837. ? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.? ? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes, ? I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain. The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish! ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Ah, thanks Paul.? It would be good to have a rule of thumb to tell you how? far back in prehistory?the?111 and 67 markers take you, as opposed to the Big Y.? The lesser matches are more subject to genetic drift, I take it.
Is it generally thought that the Ui Fidgenti and the Ui Liathain are related groups? Just curious.? Thanks again.
Tim ? FT83642 is under R-A15518 which is a sibling of R-A155 under R-A89. I think that you are working of an old version of the tree. ? Your Stewart/Stuart matches are commonly BY78453 or BY11989.1 which breaks from our ancestry at DF13, which is significantly older than CTS4466. These Scots split from us about the time or slightly before the R1b invasion of the British Isles. It is convergence that has led them to be STR matches with us. ? Paul O’Donnell ? ? Dear John, ? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642). ? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837. ? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.? ? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes, ? I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain. The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish! ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Tim, ? FTDNA’s TiP tool estimates distance to common ancestor is the best we have. But it assumes no convergence, so it is only really useful for about 300 years. Convergence is a major problem with the two major groups that I look at (M222 and CTS4466) and I expect all Corded Ware descendants. I have well over 400 matches at Y67 that have tested Y111 and do not match me there. I have only 3 matches at Y111, so more than 99% of my Y67 matches are not matches at all. ? I tend to leave it to others to link SNPs to ancient tribes (but find the reading interesting). ? Paul ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Daniel Erwin
Sent: Wednesday, 11 August 2021 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath? Ah, thanks Paul.? It would be good to have a rule of thumb to tell you how? far back in prehistory?the?111 and 67 markers take you, as opposed to the Big Y.? The lesser matches are more subject to genetic drift, I take it. Is it generally thought that the Ui Fidgenti and the Ui Liathain are related groups? Just curious.? Thanks again. ? Tim ? FT83642 is under R-A15518 which is a sibling of R-A155 under R-A89. I think that you are working of an old version of the tree. ? Your Stewart/Stuart matches are commonly BY78453 or BY11989.1 which breaks from our ancestry at DF13, which is significantly older than CTS4466. These Scots split from us about the time or slightly before the R1b invasion of the British Isles. It is convergence that has led them to be STR matches with us. ? Paul O’Donnell ? ? Dear John, ? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642). ? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837. ? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.? ? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes, ? I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain. The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish! ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Thank you, Paul, for the clarification.? I still feel a rank amateur but a better informed?one.
Tim, ? FTDNA’s TiP tool estimates distance to common ancestor is the best we have. But it assumes no convergence, so it is only really useful for about 300 years. Convergence is a major problem with the two major groups that I look at (M222 and CTS4466) and I expect all Corded Ware descendants. I have well over 400 matches at Y67 that have tested Y111 and do not match me there. I have only 3 matches at Y111, so more than 99% of my Y67 matches are not matches at all. ? I tend to leave it to others to link SNPs to ancient tribes (but find the reading interesting). ? Paul ? ? Ah, thanks Paul.? It would be good to have a rule of thumb to tell you how? far back in prehistory?the?111 and 67 markers take you, as opposed to the Big Y.? The lesser matches are more subject to genetic drift, I take it. Is it generally thought that the Ui Fidgenti and the Ui Liathain are related groups? Just curious.? Thanks again. ? Tim ? FT83642 is under R-A15518 which is a sibling of R-A155 under R-A89. I think that you are working of an old version of the tree. ? Your Stewart/Stuart matches are commonly BY78453 or BY11989.1 which breaks from our ancestry at DF13, which is significantly older than CTS4466. These Scots split from us about the time or slightly before the R1b invasion of the British Isles. It is convergence that has led them to be STR matches with us. ? Paul O’Donnell ? ? Dear John, ? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642). ? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837. ? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.? ? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes, ? I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain. The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish! ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Creepy Surprise: Medieval Skeleton Discovered Under Uprooted Tree
 [Edited Message Follows]
Hello Forum, I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.? It's important to note, that DF21's 7 Septs of Laois doesn't include McEvoy/McAvoy. Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.? I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... " The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster? I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii). I would love your thoughts on this. Cheers, Sharon Kelly admin/A663 
|
Dear Tim,
I’m not going to wade into the deep waters you and your correspondents have been swimming in but wanted to let you know that I’m trying to follow it all (trying!) because I'm a Caldwell with a Stewart great-grandfather. ?Your mention of those names got my attention.
Cheers,
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Tim ? FT83642 is under R-A15518 which is a sibling of R-A155 under R-A89. I think that you are working of an old version of the tree. ? Your Stewart/Stuart matches are commonly BY78453 or BY11989.1 which breaks from our ancestry at DF13, which is significantly older than CTS4466. These Scots split from us about the time or slightly before the R1b invasion of the British Isles. It is convergence that has led them to be STR matches with us.? ? Paul O’Donnell ? ? Dear John, ? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and?
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642). ? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches?
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837. ? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell?
and Huey.? ? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes, ? I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain. The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish! ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663?
|
Hi Tim,
The sources of information about the Uí Liatháin parallel their thin and scattered Y DNA ?!
For their history in Ireland up the demise of their polity in the early 1200's, the best source is
an article entitled 'The Uí Liatháin and their Septlands' by Líam ?
Buachalla published in the Journal of the Cork Historical and
Archaeological Society 1939 Vol 44 No 159 pp 28-36 which can be freely
downloaded from (search for 'septlands' within the archived journal contents)
For their adventures in western Britain, read Eoin MacNeill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick', Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140 (23 pages) which is free to read online through JSTOR.
For a very readable account of what happened after the Romans finally abandoned Britain in 410 AD, you should read Max Adam's recently published 'The First Kingdom' published at the beginning of this year. Remarkably it is currently available on Amazon Kindle for USD 1.37 (USD 5 less than I paid for it!).
Possibly of slightly less interest to someone without an Uí Liatháin haplotype these articles / book give a good sense of the times (complicated!).
You also asked Paul if 'Is it generally thought that the Ui Fidgenti and the Ui Liathain are related groups.
The answer according to the genealogies / Annals is yes but ....
Both are related to the Eoghanachta (as proto-Eoghanachta?), this can be seen in the Y DNA phylogenetic tree but exactly how they are related to each other is currently beyond me! I would be delighted if any of the group can explain this to me. There seems to be a fair degree of ambiguity, uncertainty and, perhaps, conflation if not outright invention in parts of the genealogies.
John.
Dear John,
? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642).
? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837.
? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.?
? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes,
As ever,
Tim Erwin
? ? ? ??
Sharon,
Fascinating!
I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain.
The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by
Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish!
John.
Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Sharon,
We all have to be very careful when using Welsh surnames to identify distinct lineages and locations.
Welsh surnames are problematic since hereditary surnames
were only adopted from the fifteenth century onwards (in contrast to
Ireland where this process started in the tenth century) and the bulk of
Welsh people have a very limited range of surnames.
The ten most common surnames in Wales (Jones Davies Williams Evans
Thomas Roberts Lewis Hughes Morgan Griffiths) represent 62% of the
population whereas the ten most common Irish surnames (Murphy (O)Kelly
Walsh(e) (O)Connor (O)Sullivan (O)Byrne (O)Brien Ryan Smith/Smyth
(O)Neill) represent only 8.5% of the population.
One of the reasons suggested as to why the Welsh have such a relatively limited range of surnames is that Henry VIII passed the first 'Act of Union' with England in 1536 and required all Welsh people to have names in the English language. This was done quickly and effectively (and apparently enthusiastically) by adopting the father's given name as your surname. Hence Jones / John's (son), Davies / Davy's (son), Williams / William's son etc. Evan is a Welsh form of John as is Owen. Some Welsh surnames retain a vestige of Welsh in the form of a leading P or B representing the shadow of (M)ap (equating with the Irish Mac) - hence Powell / ap Howell, Pritchard / ap Richard, and Bowen / ap Owen. The religious climate at the time in the thick of the Reformation also encouraged the adoption of non-contentious surnames.
All of this means that surname is a very poor predictor of genetic origin in Wales in contrast to Ireland where nonetheless it still throws up challenges.
I hope this helps.
John.
Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
? ?Thank you, John!? I've just read the first?chapter of Adams's The First Kingdom, and enjoyed it.? He's a vivid prose stylist and gives you a nuanced sense of the? post-Roman return to tribal affiliation.? He gets more out of Bede and Gildas than you'd think possible. Now it's on to Líam ? Buachalla on the Ui Liathain and Eoin? MacNeill on Patrick.? Adams identifies Patrick in passing as a part of the Romanized? gentry or patrician class with its mixed sense of privilege and duty. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? --Tim
? ??
Hi Tim,
The sources of information about the Uí Liatháin parallel their thin and scattered Y DNA ?!
For their history in Ireland up the demise of their polity in the early 1200's, the best source is
an article entitled 'The Uí Liatháin and their Septlands' by Líam ?
Buachalla published in the Journal of the Cork Historical and
Archaeological Society 1939 Vol 44 No 159 pp 28-36 which can be freely
downloaded from (search for 'septlands' within the archived journal contents)
For their adventures in western Britain, read Eoin MacNeill's 'The Native Place of St. Patrick', Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature Vol. 37 (1924 - 1927), pp. 118-140 (23 pages) which is free to read online through JSTOR.
For a very readable account of what happened after the Romans finally abandoned Britain in 410 AD, you should read Max Adam's recently published 'The First Kingdom' published at the beginning of this year. Remarkably it is currently available on Amazon Kindle for USD 1.37 (USD 5 less than I paid for it!).
Possibly of slightly less interest to someone without an Uí Liatháin haplotype these articles / book give a good sense of the times (complicated!).
You also asked Paul if 'Is it generally thought that the Ui Fidgenti and the Ui Liathain are related groups.
The answer according to the genealogies / Annals is yes but ....
Both are related to the Eoghanachta (as proto-Eoghanachta?), this can be seen in the Y DNA phylogenetic tree but exactly how they are related to each other is currently beyond me! I would be delighted if any of the group can explain this to me. There seems to be a fair degree of ambiguity, uncertainty and, perhaps, conflation if not outright invention in parts of the genealogies.
John.
Dear John,
? ? Thanks?for the post in response to Sharon's fascinating?summary, I'm also interested in genetic links between east?Cork and Britain, and
Renfrewshire in?Scotland in particular.? I'm R-A 155 (R-FT83642).
? ? ?Are you able to point to sources for the history of the Ui Liathain?? As an Erwin from east Cork who has taken the Big Y, I've got close Irish matches
with gentlemen named O'Connor and Irwin.? The surname I/Erwin seems to?? originate around Kilmeedy in Limerick.? In Irish it's O h-Eireamhoin?or? O Ciarmacain and may have to do with worship of the?goddess Aine. In historical times my emigrant couple left from Cloyne parish in 1837.
? ? ? Oddly, I have quite a few Scots matches at the 67-marker level and 33 matches with the surname Stewart or Stuart.? Even if more folks named? Stewart have tested their paternal ancestry,?that's still a lot. Other Scots surnames? turning up at that level among the?predominantly?Munster names are Caldwell
and Huey.?
? ? ?Anything?I should be reading?? ?Thanks again for any help and best wishes,
As ever,
Tim Erwin
? ? ? ??
Sharon,
Fascinating!
I am separately investigating the connections between the Uí Liatháin from east Cork (R-A541 => R-A151) and the Irish Sea littoral, including both south and north Wales. Including at least one branch that seems to have originated in the 7/8th century in Britain.
The Uí Liatháin founded colonies in western Britain (Wales, Cornwall and possibly further north) from at least the fourth century and were accompanied by
Déisi and Laigin. And were hired by the Empire as foederati (mercenaries) to protect it from the wild(er) Irish!
John.
Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Hello, John. ? I know you’ve remarked about this Welsh name issue before, but surnames such as Jones, Morgan, Roberts, Davies, etc. are nevertheless considered Welsh surnames – just search ‘… surname’ and that’s what you find.? And when a combination of those names share branches, I don’t see that it is a stretch to consider the branch as ‘Welsh’. ? There are Jones (the most common surname in Wales) in both the A7751 and BY23525 branches (as well as Z16252 and A151) – which reminds me of the movie Zulu, when the role call was full of Jones… They are obviously not all related, but they are clearly all Welsh.? ? Some of the other surnames in those branches are more of a challenge.? For instance, Sellers, in the A7751 branch, would not be initially considered Welsh, but a matching Sellers in their surname project but not in ours indicates his origins as Wales.? So, maybe his ancestor was a Jones a few centuries ago??? Even if hereditary surnames are a relatively recent adoption in Wales, if they cluster in groups that itself is an indicator, isn’t it? ? Elizabeth ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of john brazil
Sent: 11 August 2021 17:24
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath? We all have to be very careful when using Welsh surnames to identify distinct lineages and locations. Welsh surnames are problematic since hereditary surnames were only adopted from the fifteenth century onwards (in contrast to Ireland where this process started in the tenth century) and the bulk of Welsh people have a very limited range of surnames. The ten most common surnames in Wales (Jones Davies Williams Evans Thomas Roberts Lewis Hughes Morgan Griffiths) represent 62% of the population whereas the ten most common Irish surnames (Murphy (O)Kelly Walsh(e) (O)Connor (O)Sullivan (O)Byrne (O)Brien Ryan Smith/Smyth (O)Neill) represent only 8.5% of the population. One of the reasons suggested as to why the Welsh have such a relatively limited range of surnames is that Henry VIII passed the first 'Act of Union' with England in 1536 and required all Welsh people to have names in the English language. This was done quickly and effectively (and apparently enthusiastically) by adopting the father's given name as your surname. Hence Jones / John's (son), Davies / Davy's (son), Williams / William's son etc. Evan is a Welsh form of John as is Owen. Some Welsh surnames retain a vestige of Welsh in the form of a leading P or B representing the shadow of (M)ap (equating with the Irish Mac) - hence Powell / ap Howell, Pritchard / ap Richard, and Bowen / ap Owen. The religious climate at the time in the thick of the Reformation also encouraged the adoption of non-contentious surnames. All of this means that surname is a very poor predictor of genetic origin in Wales in contrast to Ireland where nonetheless it still throws up challenges. ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
I think you have misunderstood me Elizabeth.
I was not arguing that these names are not Welsh, rather that we have to be careful not to line up all the Thomases together for example.
Cheers,
John.
Hello, John. ? I know you’ve remarked about this Welsh name issue before, but surnames such as Jones, Morgan, Roberts, Davies, etc. are nevertheless considered Welsh surnames – just search ‘… surname’ and that’s what you find.? And when a combination of those names share branches, I don’t see that it is a stretch to consider the branch as ‘Welsh’. ? There are Jones (the most common surname in Wales) in both the A7751 and BY23525 branches (as well as Z16252 and A151) – which reminds me of the movie Zulu, when the role call was full of Jones… They are obviously not all related, but they are clearly all Welsh.? ? Some of the other surnames in those branches are more of a challenge.? For instance, Sellers, in the A7751 branch, would not be initially considered Welsh, but a matching Sellers in their surname project but not in ours indicates his origins as Wales.? So, maybe his ancestor was a Jones a few centuries ago??? Even if hereditary surnames are a relatively recent adoption in Wales, if they cluster in groups that itself is an indicator, isn’t it? ? Elizabeth ? ? We all have to be very careful when using Welsh surnames to identify distinct lineages and locations. Welsh surnames are problematic since hereditary surnames were only adopted from the fifteenth century onwards (in contrast to Ireland where this process started in the tenth century) and the bulk of Welsh people have a very limited range of surnames. The ten most common surnames in Wales (Jones Davies Williams Evans Thomas Roberts Lewis Hughes Morgan Griffiths) represent 62% of the population whereas the ten most common Irish surnames (Murphy (O)Kelly Walsh(e) (O)Connor (O)Sullivan (O)Byrne (O)Brien Ryan Smith/Smyth (O)Neill) represent only 8.5% of the population. One of the reasons suggested as to why the Welsh have such a relatively limited range of surnames is that Henry VIII passed the first 'Act of Union' with England in 1536 and required all Welsh people to have names in the English language. This was done quickly and effectively (and apparently enthusiastically) by adopting the father's given name as your surname. Hence Jones / John's (son), Davies / Davy's (son), Williams / William's son etc. Evan is a Welsh form of John as is Owen. Some Welsh surnames retain a vestige of Welsh in the form of a leading P or B representing the shadow of (M)ap (equating with the Irish Mac) - hence Powell / ap Howell, Pritchard / ap Richard, and Bowen / ap Owen. The religious climate at the time in the thick of the Reformation also encouraged the adoption of non-contentious surnames. All of this means that surname is a very poor predictor of genetic origin in Wales in contrast to Ireland where nonetheless it still throws up challenges. ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
Separately some of you might find these sites useful?
and
I don't know where they get there data but they may be of some for rarer or more localised names.
John.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 6:48 PM john brazil via <johnkbrazil= [email protected]> wrote: I think you have misunderstood me Elizabeth.
I was not arguing that these names are not Welsh, rather that we have to be careful not to line up all the Thomases together for example.
Cheers,
John.
Hello, John. ? I know you’ve remarked about this Welsh name issue before, but surnames such as Jones, Morgan, Roberts, Davies, etc. are nevertheless considered Welsh surnames – just search ‘… surname’ and that’s what you find.? And when a combination of those names share branches, I don’t see that it is a stretch to consider the branch as ‘Welsh’. ? There are Jones (the most common surname in Wales) in both the A7751 and BY23525 branches (as well as Z16252 and A151) – which reminds me of the movie Zulu, when the role call was full of Jones… They are obviously not all related, but they are clearly all Welsh.? ? Some of the other surnames in those branches are more of a challenge.? For instance, Sellers, in the A7751 branch, would not be initially considered Welsh, but a matching Sellers in their surname project but not in ours indicates his origins as Wales.? So, maybe his ancestor was a Jones a few centuries ago??? Even if hereditary surnames are a relatively recent adoption in Wales, if they cluster in groups that itself is an indicator, isn’t it? ? Elizabeth ? ? We all have to be very careful when using Welsh surnames to identify distinct lineages and locations. Welsh surnames are problematic since hereditary surnames were only adopted from the fifteenth century onwards (in contrast to Ireland where this process started in the tenth century) and the bulk of Welsh people have a very limited range of surnames. The ten most common surnames in Wales (Jones Davies Williams Evans Thomas Roberts Lewis Hughes Morgan Griffiths) represent 62% of the population whereas the ten most common Irish surnames (Murphy (O)Kelly Walsh(e) (O)Connor (O)Sullivan (O)Byrne (O)Brien Ryan Smith/Smyth (O)Neill) represent only 8.5% of the population. One of the reasons suggested as to why the Welsh have such a relatively limited range of surnames is that Henry VIII passed the first 'Act of Union' with England in 1536 and required all Welsh people to have names in the English language. This was done quickly and effectively (and apparently enthusiastically) by adopting the father's given name as your surname. Hence Jones / John's (son), Davies / Davy's (son), Williams / William's son etc. Evan is a Welsh form of John as is Owen. Some Welsh surnames retain a vestige of Welsh in the form of a leading P or B representing the shadow of (M)ap (equating with the Irish Mac) - hence Powell / ap Howell, Pritchard / ap Richard, and Bowen / ap Owen. The religious climate at the time in the thick of the Reformation also encouraged the adoption of non-contentious surnames. All of this means that surname is a very poor predictor of genetic origin in Wales in contrast to Ireland where nonetheless it still throws up challenges. ? Hello Forum,
I'm researching CTS4466>A663, and have been requesting the A663 men, for several years, to join CTS4466Plus project.? Their ancestors are mainly found in Leinster.? Nigel McCarthy dates A663 starting at 300AD (iain McDonald 23AD).? A663 includes Septs surnames; Moore, Lawlor, Dowling, McEvoy/McAvoy.? Researcher Niall Moore noticed in 2017 that my A663 men might be 7 Septs of Laois.? He continues his amazing research on that.??
Upstream from A663 is FGC84010 circa 250BC.? Downstream of FGC84010 is also A541 where Hart appears (ancestors lived in Westleigh near Liverpool).? The origin of surname Hart is both WESTMEATH and Durham Eng.? ?Upstream from FGC84010 is S1115, where you'll find surnames Roberts and Jones under BY23591.? Origin of surname Roberts is Denbighshire north Wales (in Deceangli territory).? Origin of Jones, in Wales, is in Silures territory (south Wales) and later found in Anglesey near the Deceangli.? ?Downstream from CTS4466 is A7751, showing surnames Gordon, Morgan, Jones.? All Welsh surnames.?
I've read that the surname McEvoy's origin is WESTMEATH.? Therefore, could FGC11134 and CTS4466 and S1115 and FGC48010 all originate around the Deceangli (north Wales) then some migrated directly over to Westmeath circa FGC48010 and A663....even as late as the Roman invasion in 1st century+/-?? ?? The Deceangli cousins in Leinster were the Gangani and Concani....from article... "The tribes appear to have been split between??and Britain. While in the latter they were called the Gangani and Deceangli, directly across the Irish Sea their cousins were the Concani or Gangani (in the region which later formed part of?). It seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the older form of Leinster."??This article states they went from Leinster to Wales.? But, what if they actually went from Wales to Leinster?
I also noticed a feed in this forum, from August 2020, regarding a research paper stating FGC11134 bones were found in Sligo and Fermanagh.? It's interesting to note that the Fir Domnann appear in Leinster and north Mayo.? Could my group descend from the Fir Domnann?? However, researcher Robert Moore believes the Fir Domnann might be ZZ32>L1402, Damnonii were ZZ32>L627 and Dumnonii of Devon also of ZZ32 (Y DNA does point to ZZ32 as Dumnonii).
I would love your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Sharon Kelly
admin/A663
|
John,
Thanks for pointing out that patronymics were used in Wales and we have to be careful.? You mentioned that they were fixed in 1536.? My understanding is that the adoption of fixed surnames was gradual and patronymics continued into the eighteenth century.
Evan
|
Yes Evan, as many things in society, the upper classes were earlier adopters.
True in Ireland too although it started 500 years earlier.
The religious were also early adopters in Ireland - Cle(a)ry is the oldest surname in Ireland. Clerig - cleric - clerk - Clark. An example of relatively rare occupational Irish surnames.
John.
John,
Thanks for pointing out that patronymics were used in Wales and we have to be careful.? You mentioned that they were fixed in 1536.? My understanding is that the adoption of fixed surnames was gradual and patronymics continued into the eighteenth century.
Evan
|
Ok, now I am confused. If a Jones has the R-Z16252 SNP (which is believed to be of the Eoganachta Dynasty), how can he also be Welsh?
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On Aug 11, 2021, at 14:52, john brazil <johnkbrazil@...> wrote:
? Yes Evan, as many things in society, the upper classes were earlier adopters.
True in Ireland too although it started 500 years earlier.
The religious were also early adopters in Ireland - Cle(a)ry is the oldest surname in Ireland. Clerig - cleric - clerk - Clark. An example of relatively rare occupational Irish surnames.
John.
John,
Thanks for pointing out that patronymics were used in Wales and we have to be careful.? You mentioned that they were fixed in 1536.? My understanding is that the adoption of fixed surnames was gradual and patronymics continued into the eighteenth century.
Evan
|
The adoption of surnames is fascinating. ?My one and only Y-111 match (at 9 steps) is a Connolly, which is very close to my own name “Conner”. ?Coincidence?
I have reason to believe my American progenitor was from Bristol, England, along the same approximate path that the Uí Liatháin would have travelled when immigrating to Wales. ?However, my R-Z16254 SNP may indicate that I am more closely related to the Uí Fidgenti line. ?Hopefully, Nigel or something can nail down which SNPs belong to each group.
My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the the Uí Fidgenti and Uí Liatháin are descendants of the Corcu Loigde, which has its roots in the Dáirine. ?The?Dáirine are said to have ruled before the?Eóganachta, but may have been related to the Eóganachta through some proto-Eóganachta tribe that is not documented.?
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Show quoted text
John,
Thanks for pointing out that patronymics were used in Wales and we have to be careful.? You mentioned that they were fixed in 1536.? My understanding is that the adoption of fixed surnames was gradual and patronymics continued into the eighteenth century.
Evan
|
Rusty,
It is an unfortunate complication but people don't stay where they are put!
Some Irish Y DNA haplotypes, having arrived in Ireland eons past and, subsequently mutated, retraced their ancestors' steps back to Britain and north western France. Not necessarily your line but definitely R-A151 and other
various Irish lineages including the Eoghanacht ?! But, perhaps, at different times.
Most recently (in big numbers) during the Great Famine but I imagine on an ongoing basis since time immemorial.
John.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 7:56 PM Rusty Sullivan < gunshipfco@...> wrote: Ok, now I am confused. If a Jones has the R-Z16252 SNP (which is believed to be of the Eoganachta Dynasty), how can he also be Welsh? ? Yes Evan, as many things in society, the upper classes were earlier adopters.
True in Ireland too although it started 500 years earlier.
The religious were also early adopters in Ireland - Cle(a)ry is the oldest surname in Ireland. Clerig - cleric - clerk - Clark. An example of relatively rare occupational Irish surnames.
John.
John,
Thanks for pointing out that patronymics were used in Wales and we have to be careful.? You mentioned that they were fixed in 1536.? My understanding is that the adoption of fixed surnames was gradual and patronymics continued into the eighteenth century.
Evan
|
