Re: Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo
Hello, James. ? As always, you amaze with your expertise and inventiveness. ? I recall from earlier efforts that the mix of Y500 and Y700 data was making automated TMRCA estimation in your trees go a bit ¡®haywire¡¯.? I see in the new one that you do have a date for CTS4466 itself - Formed: 3,000 ybp and TMRCA: 1,700 ybp. ?This is considerably younger than your previous estimation -TMRCA: 1050BC [ 2150BC - 0AD 95% confidence using 155 NGS samples ]??? ??? ? For those of you who have trouble understanding the difference between ¡®Formed¡¯ and ¡®TMRCA¡¯ --- ?CTS4466 has 20 equivalents (Events in James¡¯ tree) meaning that everyone positive for CTS4466 is also positive for all those equivalents.? Now, all those mutations did not occur at the same time. ?And we have no way of knowing which of those 20 mutations occurred first.? The subclade is labelled CTS4466 only because it was the first mutation identified that defined the Irish type II/South Irish modal. ? There are various numbers used by different researchers/statisticians to calculate how often, on average, an SNP mutation occurs.? One figure I recall is 85 years, which would mean the first mutation of our CTS4466 subclade ¡®Formed¡¯ / occurred 85 x 20 years ago = 1700 years, previous to the ¡®TMRCA¡¯ / ancestor who carried all 20 of the mutations.? That is a little more than James¡¯ current spread, but almost all other calculations I¡¯ve found are more in line with James¡¯ previous estimate.? James?? ? Thanks.? Elizabeth ? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of James Kane
Sent: 05 September 2021 15:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo? Hello folks,
There is a demo of the Y-DNA Warehouse's tree render available as I wrap up the new site's base functionality. ?At the moment it only displays the tree structure to people who are not logged in and the account registration is not turned on yet.
This link will land you on the current data loaded for R1b-CTS466 and subclades. ?The data is from a proof of concept run for the new tree builder earlier this year, so it's missing more branches than are included.
If you click the "More info..." button, you can see some information about the subclade and a pointer back to the project at FTDNA.
Feel free to play around and give feed back. ?Clicking the breadcrumbs above the tree will let you navigate up the tree. ?The primary goal is to render much faster than FTDNA or YFULL's tree offerings and I've a few more tricks to get things going faster as it grows.
For admins, if there are text blurbs you like to add to "More info..." on your branches of interest get in contact with me off-line.
Thanks,
James Kane
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Y-DNA Warehouse Tree Tech Demo
Hello folks,
There is a demo of the Y-DNA Warehouse's tree render available as I wrap up the new site's base functionality. ?At the moment it only displays the tree structure to people who are not logged in and the account registration is not turned on yet.
This link will land you on the current data loaded for R1b-CTS466 and subclades. ?The data is from a proof of concept run for the new tree builder earlier this year, so it's missing more branches than are included.
If you click the "More info..." button, you can see some information about the subclade and a pointer back to the project at FTDNA.
Feel free to play around and give feed back. ?Clicking the breadcrumbs above the tree will let you navigate up the tree. ?The primary goal is to render much faster than FTDNA or YFULL's tree offerings and I've a few more tricks to get things going faster as it grows.
For admins, if there are text blurbs you like to add to "More info..." on your branches of interest get in contact with me off-line.
Thanks,
James Kane
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Building on previous, Wales connections are the focus. ? Under Haplogroup origins I see Edward Teague who¡¯s the earliest known American ancestor of Teagues, a surname with multiple kits my son Evan and I both match. ? Their SNPs are descendant to FT43021 under L270. ? Edward Teague¡¯s origin is Bristol, England, adjacent to Southern Wales.
Curiously our closer Y matches in the Edward Teague are BY80863, a SNP just one step down from FT43021. ? The BY80863 surname kits are Hart and Moody. ? ?
Hart was a given name in ancient times as was Teague in its various spellings. ? ?
My theory is during the rise of Eoganachta seafaring clans interacted and engaged over many centuries across Ireland, Wales, Britain, Scotland and Brittany.
after surnames were imposed after the Norman and plantation onslaughts, given names/surnames/clan septs &branches were stirred up and blended.
In Ireland¡¯s polygamous culture where tribal chiefs and princes had multiple partners and had clan relatives raise their kin, it¡¯s logical that we find modern surname mixing in the same phylogenetic tree branches with Big Y.
McGillicuddy is s perfect example in my Sullivan clan group of branches. ? Connie Mack, the famous MLB legend, shortened his name when he immigrated from Ireland. ? McGill is another derivative surname that changed upon arrival. ? McGillycuddy¡¯s surname roots are religious and was a significant O¡¯Sullivan Mor branch on Iveragh Peninsula.
Like Teague matches of ours, McGillycuddy¡¯s fall below L270 and FT43021. ? ?They are purely Irish with ancestors whose tribes interacted in late Bronze Age Ireland with Travelers from Wales, Britain and Scotland.
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Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
I found at least three origins of Lynch surname, one English (hill), one Irish (mariner), one AngloNorman. ? ? Just as Hughey (and variants) connotes horseman and Sugrue stems from the given name Siegfried, Lynch has multiple origins and genetic clustering.
Before surnames were introduced, there probably was mixing and combining of given and surnames, aligned by place, clan and vocation. ? ?For example Lowney/Looney is a surname aligned with O¡¯Sullivans, a branch, who lived along the Laune River near Beaufort. ? ?My autosomal distant cousins include Lowneys.
As a strong mariner clan, O¡¯Sullivans naturally in the Middle Ages relied on mariner clan members, probably Lynches, to command ships in seatrade and defense. ? A Lynch branch under cts4466 split at L270 (and descendants), which is dominated by Sullivans.
We know oghams in pre-christian coastal Ireland and Wales memorialize ancestors across the diaspora.
Ed
On Wednesday, September 1, 2021, lilwayne < wmcauliffe72@...> wrote: Thanks mate.I thought Lynch Lynch was a Norman name but there you go
What¡¯s tough about evolving science of phylogenealogy is that we are learning more every month and year. ? ?Surnames are indicative not always definitive due to cultural and various wild card factors needed to predict at high confidence TMRCA ranges for SNP sub clades. ??
Historical and archaeological evidence helps us filter out fog and noise like polarized lenses helps reduce glare. ? Take the surname Lynch (and variations). ? ?Most importantly Lynch stems from ¡°mariner¡± or ¡°seaman.¡±
Think fleets of large ships engaged in trade, pirateering, battling across the Irish Sea and along coastlines and harbors in late Bronze and Iron Age, pre-Christian Ireland, Britain, Brittany and Scotland. ? ?Lynch clan descendants reflect multiple branches, similar to O¡¯Sullivan clan septs.
Lynch mariners were aligned with O¡¯Sullivan Bere, probably resulting in a few distant Lynch surname matches. ? Also, I have a distant Lindsey match at A1133, which falls under L270/FT43021 (my son¡¯s BigY terminal SNP).
For Welsh dna perspective, I look at surnames like Lynch because the mariner root ties to the Llyn peninsula, where we see Hill forts and standing stones comparable to western Ireland on Dingle, Iveragh, and Beara peninsulas. ? In pre-Eoganacht, pre-Christian centuries, what DNA seed was spread 30+ generations back??
My point: ? Y DNA helps us see surname clusters that are clear and logical, and others that drive relevant research and analysis to fill in narratives. ? ?For my Sullivan roots, McGillicuddy, Sugrue, Harrington, Lowney, Daly and Driscoll help focus my genealogical research in Kerry and Cork to crack our family¡¯s brick walls.
With more test kit results¡ªY and Autosomal¡ª I¡¯m learning more to help create our narrative and hopefully find our original 1847-49 pre-Famine civil parish.
ed
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Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Thanks mate.I thought Lynch Lynch was a Norman name but there you go
What¡¯s tough about evolving science of phylogenealogy is that we are learning more every month and year. ? ?Surnames are indicative not always definitive due to cultural and various wild card factors needed to predict at high confidence TMRCA ranges for SNP sub clades. ??
Historical and archaeological evidence helps us filter out fog and noise like polarized lenses helps reduce glare. ? Take the surname Lynch (and variations). ? ?Most importantly Lynch stems from ¡°mariner¡± or ¡°seaman.¡±
Think fleets of large ships engaged in trade, pirateering, battling across the Irish Sea and along coastlines and harbors in late Bronze and Iron Age, pre-Christian Ireland, Britain, Brittany and Scotland. ? ?Lynch clan descendants reflect multiple branches, similar to O¡¯Sullivan clan septs.
Lynch mariners were aligned with O¡¯Sullivan Bere, probably resulting in a few distant Lynch surname matches. ? Also, I have a distant Lindsey match at A1133, which falls under L270/FT43021 (my son¡¯s BigY terminal SNP).
For Welsh dna perspective, I look at surnames like Lynch because the mariner root ties to the Llyn peninsula, where we see Hill forts and standing stones comparable to western Ireland on Dingle, Iveragh, and Beara peninsulas. ? In pre-Eoganacht, pre-Christian centuries, what DNA seed was spread 30+ generations back??
My point: ? Y DNA helps us see surname clusters that are clear and logical, and others that drive relevant research and analysis to fill in narratives. ? ?For my Sullivan roots, McGillicuddy, Sugrue, Harrington, Lowney, Daly and Driscoll help focus my genealogical research in Kerry and Cork to crack our family¡¯s brick walls.
With more test kit results¡ªY and Autosomal¡ª I¡¯m learning more to help create our narrative and hopefully find our original 1847-49 pre-Famine civil parish.
ed
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
What¡¯s tough about evolving science of phylogenealogy is that we are learning more every month and year. ? ?Surnames are indicative not always definitive due to cultural and various wild card factors needed to predict at high confidence TMRCA ranges for SNP sub clades. ??
Historical and archaeological evidence helps us filter out fog and noise like polarized lenses helps reduce glare. ? Take the surname Lynch (and variations). ? ?Most importantly Lynch stems from ¡°mariner¡± or ¡°seaman.¡±
Think fleets of large ships engaged in trade, pirateering, battling across the Irish Sea and along coastlines and harbors in late Bronze and Iron Age, pre-Christian Ireland, Britain, Brittany and Scotland. ? ?Lynch clan descendants reflect multiple branches, similar to O¡¯Sullivan clan septs.
Lynch mariners were aligned with O¡¯Sullivan Bere, probably resulting in a few distant Lynch surname matches. ? Also, I have a distant Lindsey match at A1133, which falls under L270/FT43021 (my son¡¯s BigY terminal SNP).
For Welsh dna perspective, I look at surnames like Lynch because the mariner root ties to the Llyn peninsula, where we see Hill forts and standing stones comparable to western Ireland on Dingle, Iveragh, and Beara peninsulas. ? In pre-Eoganacht, pre-Christian centuries, what DNA seed was spread 30+ generations back??
My point: ? Y DNA helps us see surname clusters that are clear and logical, and others that drive relevant research and analysis to fill in narratives. ? ?For my Sullivan roots, McGillicuddy, Sugrue, Harrington, Lowney, Daly and Driscoll help focus my genealogical research in Kerry and Cork to crack our family¡¯s brick walls.
With more test kit results¡ªY and Autosomal¡ª I¡¯m learning more to help create our narrative and hopefully find our original 1847-49 pre-Famine civil parish.
ed
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Can you do something on the McAuliffe surname please mate cheers
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 5:25 AM ·¡»å³§³¾¾±³Ù³ó¡¯49 < Fordsmith07@...> wrote: Add to the mix in this exchange the surname Hughey stemming from the given name in Gaelic for horseman. ? ?Why? ? R-S1129 for me (Sullivan lineage) shows multiple Hughey kit matches. ? This surname links to the Dairine and the Ulster Cycle before the rise of the Eoganachta in Munster.
The article referenced in the second topic posting points to migrations back and forth across the Irish Sea and tribal splitting over time. ? ?Within the Sullivans there is a predominance under L270 though there¡¯s a substantial branch under Z16252 also.? When did this tribal/clan divide happen?
?None of my z16252 matches are Sullivans; they are distant marker panels with White(2), Buckley and O¡¯Neil. ? White is Anglo-Saxon, introduced to Ireland via Scotland and England and known in Ulster. ? ?
My point: ? ?Looking on Family Tree at my CTS4466 matches (non are BigY) under Haplogroup origins, the large majority show Ireland; none list Wales. ? Portugal, Scotland, England are listed too.
Then there¡¯s my L21 match across all panels thru 111 (not Big Y). ? Devon and Cornwall connections are evident for us and Mr. Watkins. Ed Smith?
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Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Add to the mix in this exchange the surname Hughey stemming from the given name in Gaelic for horseman. ? ?Why? ? R-S1129 for me (Sullivan lineage) shows multiple Hughey kit matches. ? This surname links to the Dairine and the Ulster Cycle before the rise of the Eoganachta in Munster.
The article referenced in the second topic posting points to migrations back and forth across the Irish Sea and tribal splitting over time. ? ?Within the Sullivans there is a predominance under L270 though there¡¯s a substantial branch under Z16252 also.? When did this tribal/clan divide happen?
?None of my z16252 matches are Sullivans; they are distant marker panels with White(2), Buckley and O¡¯Neil. ? White is Anglo-Saxon, introduced to Ireland via Scotland and England and known in Ulster. ? ?
My point: ? ?Looking on Family Tree at my CTS4466 matches (non are BigY) under Haplogroup origins, the large majority show Ireland; none list Wales. ? Portugal, Scotland, England are listed too.
Then there¡¯s my L21 match across all panels thru 111 (not Big Y). ? Devon and Cornwall connections are evident for us and Mr. Watkins. Ed Smith?
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Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
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Wish i could help you there man.I`m not a Jones
Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
?
Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
?
I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
?
What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
?
I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor sailed from Scotland for instance!
?
?
GJ
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Wish i could help you there man.I`m not a Jones
Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
?
Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
?
I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
?
What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
?
I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor sailed from Scotland for instance!
?
?
GJ
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Thanks Neil and GJ.
You might be interested in looking at the two maps attached?
Whilst the SurnameMap shows how prevalent and widespread the Jones surname is in the UK, the 'named' map clearly shows an association with eastern Wales bordering England i.e. the ancient Welsh Kingdom of Powys as already mentioned by Neil.
From and
John.
Hi GJ,
?
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > S552 > DF13 > FGC11134 > FGC12055 > A353 > Z3026 > Z16250 > A114 > CTS4466/S1136 > S1115 > FGC84010 > A541 > A151>FT11485>FT74196>BY21620
contains 5 surname subclades, all of which have pre-genealogical era ancestry in either Northern England or Wales. The branching of the line indicates that it has been branching on the island of Britain for a very long time, and the MRCA ancestor is at least
as old as 1200 years before present.
?
All evidence indicates that BY21620 did not form in Ireland, but in Britain at some point around 800AD. One surname group from BY21620 has surname Jones, with deep ancestry in North Wales.
This branch of Jones are an Armiger line, holding a grant of Arms issued by the Norroy King of Arms over 600 years ago. The grant confirms the family¡¯s descent from Tewdor Trefor, founder of the Tribe of the Marches. The Grant of Arms states that ¡®E[dward]:
J[ones]: of Diff[ryn Clwyd]: in the Count[y] of D[enbigh]:gent, ys Lyneally descended from the wo[rthie] Familye of .T[revor]. of C[hirk]. in the said Count[y] . of D[enbigh]. and was the first of that Familie that didassume the surname of J[ones]¡¯.
?
This family is a branch line of the former ruling family of
Powys.
?
Best,
?
Neil
?
?
?
Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
?
Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
?
I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and
I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
?
What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek
refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
?
I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other
accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor
sailed from Scotland for instance!
?
?
GJ
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Hi GJ,
?
R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > S552 > DF13 > FGC11134 > FGC12055 > A353 > Z3026 > Z16250 > A114 > CTS4466/S1136 > S1115 > FGC84010 > A541 > A151>FT11485>FT74196>BY21620
contains 5 surname subclades, all of which have pre-genealogical era ancestry in either Northern England or Wales. The branching of the line indicates that it has been branching on the island of Britain for a very long time, and the MRCA ancestor is at least
as old as 1200 years before present.
?
All evidence indicates that BY21620 did not form in Ireland, but in Britain at some point around 800AD. One surname group from BY21620 has surname Jones, with deep ancestry in North Wales.
This branch of Jones are an Armiger line, holding a grant of Arms issued by the Norroy King of Arms over 600 years ago. The grant confirms the family¡¯s descent from Tewdor Trefor, founder of the Tribe of the Marches. The Grant of Arms states that ¡®E[dward]:
J[ones]: of Diff[ryn Clwyd]: in the Count[y] of D[enbigh]:gent, ys Lyneally descended from the wo[rthie] Familye of .T[revor]. of C[hirk]. in the said Count[y] . of D[enbigh]. and was the first of that Familie that didassume the surname of J[ones]¡¯.
?
This family is a branch line of the former ruling family of
Powys.
?
Best,
?
Neil
?
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Gj3000 via groups.io
Sent: Friday 27 August 2021 20:45
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
?
Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
?
Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
?
I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and
I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
?
What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek
refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
?
I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other
accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor
sailed from Scotland for instance!
?
?
GJ
|
Re: FGC84010>A663 from Wales to Meath / Westmeath
Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
?
Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
?
I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
?
What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
?
I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor sailed from Scotland for instance!
?
?
GJ
|
Thanks again Elizabeth,
All new information for me.? ? I see that building an understanding of Irish names (surnames, middle, given) is like solving a 3D Rubik's?cube.? ?On one side are our Haplogroup Subclades through DNA testing,?to confirm the relevant paternal and descendant blocks to explore.? Another is the combined family histories, both paper trail and confirmed family history and fact base.? ? "Putting a face on the data" is an approach we used in our consulting work to bring hard data (e.g., SNPs) to life at points and places in time.? The third side is the relevant place-based cultural and historic context relevant to Irish/New World emigration since the 1700's.? ? Sorting through mass peak Famine emigration from Cork and Kerry in 1847-49 is a challenging problem many of us still struggle to simplify and solve.? ??
Ancient to modern history in Ireland and in America for our family provides facts and helps build insights and theories for filling in blanks missing in our paper trail and family evolution of many generations.? ? Learning about Brehon Law, Penal Law and Irish traditional naming conventions provide perspective and help?me "look around corners" in narrowing down searches to break through our Sullivan and Harrington brick walls around the peak Famine years.? ? This blog provides helpful insights on what other citizen genealogists and supporting administrators think and are doing, which is why I enjoy this group.? ?And personal follow up by others who care about our Irish histories and experiences continues to amaze me.? ?Thank you Elizabeth and group members.
Ed
On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 10:16 AM Elizabeth < elizabeth@...> wrote: Hello, Ed. ? You shouldn¡¯t forget that the druids were Vates, Filidhs and Bards, ranks which describe Ritual Priests, Seers, and Poet/Singers.? The ¡®recorded¡¯ history of the land was oral, and druidic students spent years memorizing extraordinarily long poems that were recited at banquets and feasts, celebrating the bravery of their tribal patrons and the genealogy of their chiefs.? I believe that some of them quietly shifted into the role of Christian clergy and were at least partly responsible for the early annals putting into writing the long mythological origin myths of their island, previously maintained through these Bards.? How the origin myths might fit into the timing of the Ogham stones and the Eoghanacht can only be conjecture.? Most modern scholars discount the invasions of Ireland as little more than fiction, though I¡¯ve always felt that where there is smoke, there is fire¡ ? The organization, or lack thereof, of the early Irish Church was rather typical of the temperament of the tribal Irish ¨C independent and relatively unstructured.? The Roman diocesan system that Patrick brought with him was largely ignored, and it wasn¡¯t until the 12th century and the Synod of Cashel in 1101 that Rome began to make a real effort to compel the Irish to conform.? A pity¡ ? Elizabeth ? ? Thanks Elizabeth,
Yes I see that Oghams in Ireland are concentrated in County Kerry¡¯s Dingle and Iveragh peninsulas, with the tallest in Europe on Dingle. ? Elsewhere in Ireland, Scotland, Dyfed Wales, the Isle of Man and the border or Devon/Cornwall Oghams are found around the Irish Sea¡ªabout 400 inscriptions mainly in Primitive Irish plus some fragments of Pictish language.
The clues I see are cultural exchange by sea where personal names are commemorated, establishing tribal relationships and identities. ? ?And the predominance in southwestern Ireland suggests at the farthest Western shores of Europe, not yet literate or exposed to Roman or Christian beliefs, Irish and Welsh mythologies interacted. ? ? ?And if we believe the Milesians (Gaels) took Ireland from the native Irish before the Ogham timeframe, what role did Oghams play in their mythology and other worldly view in centuries to follow? ? ?Instead of Megalithic tombs in mounds, did Ogham¡¯s mark a new era as the Eoganachta dynasty emerged concurrent with popularity of Ogham stones placed with purpose? ? ?Without written language, how did our ancestors honor their ancestral leaders and heros?
History says in 360 the Irish colonized the Island of Man and with the Picts conquered the Dyfed Promontory of present day Wales. ? ?Ogham inscriptions using Primitive Irish in Wales confirm the common cultural exchange through Oghams with the Kerry Irish promontories. ? ?Experts continue to unpack ancient mysteries through Ogham clues.
My interest is seeing possible dna exchange between Gaelic South Irish ancestry and Welsh-born Irish offspring through such pirate raids and possible slave capture back in the mists in time. ? ?Wasn¡¯t St Patrick captured in an Irish raid, possibly taken from Wales in the 4th century? ? ?
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Hello, Ed. ? You shouldn¡¯t forget that the druids were Vates, Filidhs and Bards, ranks which describe Ritual Priests, Seers, and Poet/Singers.? The ¡®recorded¡¯ history of the land was oral, and druidic students spent years memorizing extraordinarily long poems that were recited at banquets and feasts, celebrating the bravery of their tribal patrons and the genealogy of their chiefs. ?I believe that some of them quietly shifted into the role of Christian clergy and were at least partly responsible for the early annals putting into writing the long mythological origin myths of their island, previously maintained through these Bards.? How the origin myths might fit into the timing of the Ogham stones and the Eoghanacht can only be conjecture.? Most modern scholars discount the invasions of Ireland as little more than fiction, though I¡¯ve always felt that where there is smoke, there is fire¡ ? The organization, or lack thereof, of the early Irish Church was rather typical of the temperament of the tribal Irish ¨C independent and relatively unstructured.? The Roman diocesan system that Patrick brought with him was largely ignored, and it wasn¡¯t until the 12th century and the Synod of Cashel in 1101 that Rome began to make a real effort to compel the Irish to conform.? A pity¡ ? Elizabeth ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of ·¡»å³§³¾¾±³Ù³ó¡¯49
Sent: 17 August 2021 03:47
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Ogham Stone clues? Thanks Elizabeth,
Yes I see that Oghams in Ireland are concentrated in County Kerry¡¯s Dingle and Iveragh peninsulas, with the tallest in Europe on Dingle. ? Elsewhere in Ireland, Scotland, Dyfed Wales, the Isle of Man and the border or Devon/Cornwall Oghams are found around the Irish Sea¡ªabout 400 inscriptions mainly in Primitive Irish plus some fragments of Pictish language.
The clues I see are cultural exchange by sea where personal names are commemorated, establishing tribal relationships and identities. ? ?And the predominance in southwestern Ireland suggests at the farthest Western shores of Europe, not yet literate or exposed to Roman or Christian beliefs, Irish and Welsh mythologies interacted. ? ? ?And if we believe the Milesians (Gaels) took Ireland from the native Irish before the Ogham timeframe, what role did Oghams play in their mythology and other worldly view in centuries to follow? ? ?Instead of Megalithic tombs in mounds, did Ogham¡¯s mark a new era as the Eoganachta dynasty emerged concurrent with popularity of Ogham stones placed with purpose? ? ?Without written language, how did our ancestors honor their ancestral leaders and heros?
History says in 360 the Irish colonized the Island of Man and with the Picts conquered the Dyfed Promontory of present day Wales. ? ?Ogham inscriptions using Primitive Irish in Wales confirm the common cultural exchange through Oghams with the Kerry Irish promontories. ? ?Experts continue to unpack ancient mysteries through Ogham clues.
My interest is seeing possible dna exchange between Gaelic South Irish ancestry and Welsh-born Irish offspring through such pirate raids and possible slave capture back in the mists in time. ? ?Wasn¡¯t St Patrick captured in an Irish raid, possibly taken from Wales in the 4th century? ? ?
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Thanks Elizabeth,
Yes I see that Oghams in Ireland are concentrated in County Kerry¡¯s Dingle and Iveragh peninsulas, with the tallest in Europe on Dingle. ? Elsewhere in Ireland, Scotland, Dyfed Wales, the Isle of Man and the border or Devon/Cornwall Oghams are found around the Irish Sea¡ªabout 400 inscriptions mainly in Primitive Irish plus some fragments of Pictish language.
The clues I see are cultural exchange by sea where personal names are commemorated, establishing tribal relationships and identities. ? ?And the predominance in southwestern Ireland suggests at the farthest Western shores of Europe, not yet literate or exposed to Roman or Christian beliefs, Irish and Welsh mythologies interacted. ? ? ?And if we believe the Milesians (Gaels) took Ireland from the native Irish before the Ogham timeframe, what role did Oghams play in their mythology and other worldly view in centuries to follow? ? ?Instead of Megalithic tombs in mounds, did Ogham¡¯s mark a new era as the Eoganachta dynasty emerged concurrent with popularity of Ogham stones placed with purpose? ? ?Without written language, how did our ancestors honor their ancestral leaders and heros?
History says in 360 the Irish colonized the Island of Man and with the Picts conquered the Dyfed Promontory of present day Wales. ? ?Ogham inscriptions using Primitive Irish in Wales confirm the common cultural exchange through Oghams with the Kerry Irish promontories. ? ?Experts continue to unpack ancient mysteries through Ogham clues.
My interest is seeing possible dna exchange between Gaelic South Irish ancestry and Welsh-born Irish offspring through such pirate raids and possible slave capture back in the mists in time. ? ?Wasn¡¯t St Patrick captured in an Irish raid, possibly taken from Wales in the 4th century? ? ?
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Joe and group, My Smith surname is through adoption and possibly my grandfather¡¯s falling out with the orphanage Catholic priest at a time along the eastern seaboard ¡°Irish need not apply¡± signs made it tough for poor Irish Catholics to get jobs. ? ? MacGillycuddy distant ¡°Y¡± dna cousin told me his McGill surname, like baseball¡¯s Connie Mack, was changed during immigration arrival to avoid Irish bigotry and get a fresh start in America.
Irish Penal laws against Catholics had huge influence and impact on both surnames and given names, as many Irishmen avoided land and property grabs by using their wife¡¯s surname. ? ?This could explain all the closer Keith surname kit matches that my son Evan and I have. ? Same for Teague, which in America isn¡¯t seen as an Irish clan surname.
For my A1133 and Evan¡¯s FT43021 South Irish subclade lineage (CTS4466, L270, FT43021, A1133), I find historic context of O¡¯Sullivan migration from Tipperary to the Laune River Valley then along Kenmare River shorelines insightful. ? ?The crucial battle of Callan in 1261 marked the defeat of the Norman movement below Limerick. ? ?The O¡¯Sullivan Mor and Sugrue sept established their familial home at Dunloe Castle along the Laune River, maintaining this strategic tower house stronghold for three centuries (10+ generations).
Seeing Sugrue/Shuckrow matches through 111 and Big Y (for Evan) panels, I¡¯m confident my ancestry line flows through this amazing corner or Munster, just as surnames were imposed. ? Seeing a clustering of Kerry/Iveragh surnames in both of our ¡°closest¡± 111 and Big Y match lists, including Sullivan, Sugrue, and MacGillycuddy leads me to plot match names phylogenetically below FT43021 and adjacent to A1133 using the attached graphic. ? I can compare this with the blocks available through BigY functionality. ? ?
In summary, deep FT Y testing, like polarized sunglasses, helps me see more clearly where my male ancestors PROBABLY ?lived before the battle of Kinsale and the Seige of Dunboy, both inflection points in O¡¯Sullivan history.
On Sunday, August 15, 2021, Joe Carroll < jcarroll2@...> wrote: Speaking of surnames, from my (current) Carroll surname and my positivity for CTS4466, wishful thinking attracts me to the Carroll sept of the Eoganachta Lock Lein in Co. Kerry (around the lakes of Kilarney) who were prominent in the 8th century or so (but faded after that), and were overrun by Moriarity and then Donoghue.
I can trace my surname back to 1834 (let¡¯s say 1800) but that leaves 1000 years for any number of NPEs to take place, as well as physical wanderings which might have taken place all over Europe in the meantime. All of that says that I should now consider it a mere coincidence that my Carroll surname matches that of a minor sept back in Kerry.
This is further bolstered by the names closest to me down from the A809/A807 block. According to the Y Block tree at FTDNA, there are 12 different surnames associated with 13 terminal SNPs with various frequencies: 4 Lee, 4 Courtney, 2 Leahy, 2 Mahoney, and one each for Sykes, Mac Donald, Carroll, Meyers, Clopton, Windom, Connor, and Lynch. 20 men in all; only one Carroll (5%). Comments? ¡ª joe
The South Irish group I came from is Eoganacht-dominant since their rise 1,300 years ago, but I¡¯ll never know exactly where my Caldwell, Hughey, Brazil, White, Teague, Keith and other Y ?matches originated outside of my O¡¯Sullivan clan surname branches,
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Speaking of surnames, from my (current) Carroll surname and my positivity for CTS4466, wishful thinking attracts me to the Carroll sept of the Eoganachta Lock Lein in Co. Kerry (around the lakes of Kilarney) who were prominent in the 8th century or so (but faded after that), and were overrun by Moriarity and then Donoghue.
I can trace my surname back to 1834 (let¡¯s say 1800) but that leaves 1000 years for any number of NPEs to take place, as well as physical wanderings which might have taken place all over Europe in the meantime. All of that says that I should now consider it a mere coincidence that my Carroll surname matches that of a minor sept back in Kerry.
This is further bolstered by the names closest to me down from the A809/A807 block. According to the Y Block tree at FTDNA, there are 12 different surnames associated with 13 terminal SNPs with various frequencies: 4 Lee, 4 Courtney, 2 Leahy, 2 Mahoney, and one each for Sykes, Mac Donald, Carroll, Meyers, Clopton, Windom, Connor, and Lynch. 20 men in all; only one Carroll (5%). Comments? ¡ª joe
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The South Irish group I came from is Eoganacht-dominant since their rise 1,300 years ago, but I¡¯ll never know exactly where my Caldwell, Hughey, Brazil, White, Teague, Keith and other Y ?matches originated outside of my O¡¯Sullivan clan surname branches,
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Hello, Ed. ? I corrected your date below.? You are correct, that seafaring miners could have travelled up to the top of Dingle Bay and sailed down the River Laune directly to Loch Leane and Ross Island ¨C smart fellows, weren¡¯t they?? The greatest cluster of ogham stones is across the bay around Dingle.? Though the time the ogham stones were being created was 3,000 years later than the early mining at Ross ¨C millennia of travel. ? Most of the surnames you mention are in different subclades from you altogether, so the common ancestor for you all is well back in the mists of time. ? Elizabeth ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of ·¡»å³§³¾¾±³Ù³ó¡¯49
Sent: 15 August 2021 13:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: [R1b-CTS4466-Plus] Ogham Stone clues? This exchange reflects dna spread across the Irish Sea in pre Eoganacht times. ? The concentrations of ogham stones from Kerry and Cork to Wales, Devon, Cornwall, isle of Man, Renfrenshire area of Scotland show a lively multi-generational seatrade and cultyral exchange among tribes in the late Irish Iron Age. ? The Gangani Celts were warriors and seafaring. ? I¡¯ve seen a huge La Tene ogham in Switzerland and multiple ogham¡¯s near Kenmare. ? ?Ross Island was a copper mining center 2500 BC, engaged with Devon and Cornwall and Brittany in the Bronze Era.
My point is Celtic dna exchange was widespread by sea in remote, rugged coastal areas across the Western Atlantic Beaker culture for millenia. ? ?The South Irish group I came from is Eoganacht-dominant since their rise 1,300 years ago, but I¡¯ll never know exactly where my Caldwell, Hughey, Brazil, White, Teague, Keith and other Y ?matches originated outside of my O¡¯Sullivan clan surname branches,?
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I meant 1300 not 2300 years since the rise in Munster ?of the Eoganacht.
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·¡»å³§³¾¾±³Ù³ó¡¯49
lilwayne
