Hi GJ,
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R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > S552 > DF13 > FGC11134 > FGC12055 > A353 > Z3026 > Z16250 > A114 > CTS4466/S1136 > S1115 > FGC84010 > A541 > A151>FT11485>FT74196>BY21620
contains 5 surname subclades, all of which have pre-genealogical era ancestry in either Northern England or Wales. The branching of the line indicates that it has been branching on the island of Britain for a very long time, and the MRCA ancestor is at least
as old as 1200 years before present.
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All evidence indicates that BY21620 did not form in Ireland, but in Britain at some point around 800AD. One surname group from BY21620 has surname Jones, with deep ancestry in North Wales.
This branch of Jones are an Armiger line, holding a grant of Arms issued by the Norroy King of Arms over 600 years ago. The grant confirms the family¡¯s descent from Tewdor Trefor, founder of the Tribe of the Marches. The Grant of Arms states that ¡®E[dward]:
J[ones]: of Diff[ryn Clwyd]: in the Count[y] of D[enbigh]:gent, ys Lyneally descended from the wo[rthie] Familye of .T[revor]. of C[hirk]. in the said Count[y] . of D[enbigh]. and was the first of that Familie that didassume the surname of J[ones]¡¯.
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This family is a branch line of the former ruling family of
Powys.
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Best,
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Neil
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Remember that ¡°Jones¡± as a surname was first recorded in the late 1200¡¯s in England and not in Wales.
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Even today there are more than double the number of Jones in England than Wales, and it was the second most numerous surname in England in 2021. How many of those are originally Welsh I¡¯m not sure.
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I would be interested to know the TMRCA of the ¡°Jones¡± contingent, but also TMRCA of any subgroup made up of ¡°Welsh¡± surnames. If it¡¯s 1500-1800¡¯s then it could easily be a lone individual from Ireland, Scotland etc. 1200-1500 and
I¡¯d have thought a solider in Edward¡¯s army, either ¡°English¡± or Scottish.
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What would also be interesting is if we knew solid locations of the last record ¡°Welsh¡± ancestor; North Wales and an older TMRCA than 1280¡¯s and it would give more credibility to a Welsh location
- unless you believe the origin myth of North Wales¡¯ dynasties; first from Scotland in the 300-400s and then through a daughter and a King of the Isle of Mann around the 800s. Although that dynasty (both branches) did always seek
refuge n Ireland whenever they were temporally overthrown-
A South Wales location would need an older TMRCA to give a solid Welsh decent due to the earlier colonisation.
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I¡¯ve come across too many FTDNA users who assume that they ¡°are¡± from whatever country their family oral history says, often based on surname, with no actual evidence when I¡¯ve asked them or done a little digging and found other
accounts online- eg people only being able to trace ancestors to the USA but putting Ireland as where their last known ancestor was from ¡°because I¡¯m CTS4466¡±¡ when their other subclaude matches have a better papertrail and can prove that their common ancestor
sailed from Scotland for instance!
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GJ
