Keyboard Shortcuts
ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
ctrl + shift + f :
Find
ctrl + / :
Quick actions
esc to dismiss
Likes
- Kresy-Siberia
- Messages
Search
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
Stefan Wisniowski
Dear Ed
You wrote: Could you please identify where this is reported by the Polish Government. In the area where we were deported there were 3 camps. There was not aThis is my initial response to Edward's request for information. If I had more time, I would report using more of the sources in my new and growing library. Please note that I am far from an authority, having been studying this only since February this year. Also, it is difficult to get precise numbers on anything, as the Soviet archives have not all come to light. So it is possible that while it is clear that hundreds of thousands of Jews were deported, my estimate of 500,000 (1/3) may be inaccurate - I quoted the 1/3 from recollection. However, I have now found the original source, which was based on statistical sampling. Here is the specific information you requested on the Polish Government document: "A Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs memorandum entitled "Computation of the Polish Population Deported to the USSR between 1939 and 1941" (Hoover Institution, Poland, Box 588, Ministerstwo Spraw Zagranicznych, London, Mar. 15, 1945) offers a statistical breakdown of the deportees, compiled on the basis of 120,000 personal files from the Polish Red Cross in Teheran: 0.5% = clergy of all denominations 0.6% = university professors, scientists 0.8% = judges and prosecutors 1.2% = journalists, artists, writers 1.3% = defense attorneys 3.1% = doctors and qualified medical personnel 3.2% = white-collar private employees 3.3% = workers 3.7% = employees of the Forestry Service 4.0% = police and border guards 4.0% = primary and secondary school teachers 4.4% = merchants 4.7% = engineers, technicians, agronomists 5.0% = white-collar state and local government employees 8.0% = professional military 24.6% = artisans 27.6% = peasants. Poles made up about 52% of the deportees, Jews about 30%, and Ukrainians and Belorussions about 18%." The above quotation is taken from the book "Revolution from Abroad - The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia" by Jan T. Gross (1988, Princeton University Press, NJ). This book can be found at: sr_1_12_2/107-4685137-0570969 The citation references an original Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs (London Government in Exile) document archived in the Hoover Institution, which can be found at: ;cs =default;ts=default Those on the group with access to the Hoover Institution can verify this document if that is desired. I have time tonight to add 2 more references. First, reference the book "The Murderers of Katyn", by Russian Journalist Vladimir Abarinov (1993, Hippocrene Books, NY). Appendix 1, "Katyn in Historical Perspective (A Chronology by Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski)," p371 contains the following: "Among first 1,140,000 civilian deportees taken from areas annexed by the Soviets[in the four mass deportations of February, April, June and June-July 1940], there were: 703,000 Poles, 217,000 Ukrainians, 83,000 Jews, 56,000 Byelorussians, 35,000 Polesians, 20,000 Russians and Lithuanians; of the 336,000 Polish citizens, refugees from German occupied central and western Poland, 198,000 were classified by the Soviets as Jews and the remaining 138,000 as Poles." So according to this, at least 281,000 Jews were deported to the USSR. Second, reference the Polish book, "Swiadkowie Prezyc Sowieckich (Witnesses of Soviet Experiences)", by Zbigniew Siemaszko (Caldra House, London). It tells of how the lists of names were compiled for the June 1940 deportation in which many of the deportees were Jews. Apparently, German Registration Commissions were set up in Lw¨®w and other parts of occupied eastern Poland, to take names of refugees from western Poland who wanted to return home to their Nazi occupied homes. In one testimonial on page 342, J¨®zef Bryda (then in Bournesmouth, UK), tells of how the thousands of applicants organised themselves into groups of 100 and 1,000 to facilitate registration - but the German commission left abruptly before they had the chance to register. Then, the chief of the Lw¨®w NKVD said that he felt sorry for the refugees sleeping in parks etc. and asked the applicants committee (which had organised itself) to turn over the lists of names and addresses of the refugees collected for purposes of applying to the Germans (who were otherwise using false names and addresses) so that the NKVD could organise transport trains to take them back to the Germans side. The Applicants Committee hesitated, but took the risk of passing over the names. Those on the list were rounded up and deported on the night of 28 June 1940. Let me respond to two other specific points: transports of... Polish Jews... who were fleeing the German advance and theyDuring the Soviet occupation (was it in November/December 1939?) all of the people in eastern Poland occupied by the Soviet Union were automatically decreed to be Soviet citizens. After June 1941, the agreement to restore Polish citizenship to the deportees only applied to ethnic Poles. Former Polish citizens who were Jewish, Ukrainian and Belorussian had to remain Societ citizens. There was not a single Jew in the Junaki/Cadet school in Middle East norAs the Jews were not allowed to reclaim Polish citizenship, they were also not allowed by the Soviets to join the Polish Army in the USSR under Anders. The Soviet-Polish Protocol for the Evacuation of the Polish Army to Persia clearly states that only ethnic Poles were to be allowed to evacuate with Anders Army. That is at least one reason for the lack of Jews in Polish cadet schools and refugee camps in Africa. The other reason is that some of the ones who did make it out with the Polish Army deserted in Palestine. The book "General Anders and the Soldiers of the Second Polish Corps", by Harvey Sarner (1997, Brunswick Press, Cathedral City, CA) quotes a number of varying statistics for the number of Jewish soldiers in Anders Army and the number of deserters in Palestine. However, the number of Jewish soldiers making it out of the USSR with the army to Iran seems to be about 4,300, with between 2,500 and 3,000 deserting in Palestine to join the Jewish Brigade of the British Army or the Irgun Zvai Lemmi paramilitary group. Incidentally, it is clear from this book that General Sikorski, head of the Polish Government, and General Anders were both sympathetic to the Zionist cause of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, although this caused significant difficulties for them with the British Government (which was obviously opposed). People - there is more that I could mine from the books at my disposal if anybody is interested. The main point is that the notion that hardly any Polish Jews were deported by the Soviets is wrong, although it is likely that not many were included in the 10 February deportation (which my family suffered) and perhaps that is the reason that some of those who taken in February may have formed this view. Regards, Stefan |
|
FW: Zydzi w 1942 IRAN (Jews in 1942 Iran)
Stefan Wisniowski
Wladyslaw asks me to pass on the following:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jewish Polish soldiers of General Anders deserted to the Israeli Army in 1942. Anders never punished anybody for this desertion. It is hard to count, but about 15% of Polish soldiers went to the Israeli army. Of 70,000 Polish soldiers about 4,000 went over to Israel. In Israel during the 1968 war Jewish soldiers gave out commands in Polish. Wladyslaw, this is broadly in line with my information, although 4,000 out of 70,000 is less than 6%. Regards, Stefan. ---------- From: "Wladyslaw Czapski" <biorytm@...> |
|
Re: SURVIVORS of the War
I have been following the discussion on the Holocaust Museum and I
have to say that on a personal level my gut feeling goes with Edward. I did look at the site and the first thing I noticed was the heading which referred to Jewish victims and survivors of the holocaust. I am not Jewish, my father is not Jewish and, while there are apparently some Jewish Pundyks out there in the world, none of his family were Jewish. I think if I registered my grandmother's and father's name here they would be deeply offended as the holocaust had nothing to do with what they went through. I also don't think the logic of 'it's better than nothing' justifies registering my family's name. While I acknowledge the tragedy of the holocaust I don't believe it serves any purpose in regards to those Poles, of whom we belong, who were persecuted by the Russians. If anything, I feel it will only serve to help our families' histories be swallowed up and forgotten in the enormity of and widely recognised Jewish tragedy. Grace |
|
Odp: Re: but where in Kazakhstan???
Wladyslaw Czapski
OK. No problem.
Wladyslaw Czapski ----- Wiadomosc oryginalna ----- Od: "edtar" <edtar@...> Do: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Wyslano: 20 pazdziernika 2001 04:11 Temat: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: but where in Kazakhstan??? Wladyslawthe Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania.belorus
|
|
Re: SURVIVORS of the War
edtar
Stefan
You wrote: "the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towardsJewish survivors. " It does not SEEM to be oriented, it IS for Jewish Holocaust survivors. "I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me registration forms." Did you tell them that you are not Jewish?? On the other hand it may not matter much to them since larger numbers will mean better holocaust business. You never know what compensation may pop up in the future. Rest assured you will not be eligible to hsare in the kitty. The term Holocaust really means burning at the stake or offering and in this case the burning (in crematoria) of the Jews. Holocaust was perpetrated by Germans, not Soviets. Soviets murdered millions of people - all nationalities - by overworking and starvation. They were not allies of the Germans in holocaust. This is a free country and you can belong to most organisations including Holocaust. Mozeltoff to you. But please do not propagate nonsensic associations. Holocaust is Jjewish and you can not change this but you can adopt Judaism and be one of them. Edward ----- Original Message ----- From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both ofthat the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towardsJewish survivors. Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of thecoming from. I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant soand it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order todefines a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/orrule of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which wereof Poland from 1939 to 1941.the Holocaust Museum.dominated by remembrance of Jewish victims. This is not surprising, as the Jewswere a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of thethe Jews".as THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis andtheir allies. In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not takeUnited States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in othercountries. names of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escapedto take up our rightful place by going tobetween 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million weremurdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction orincluding homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and politicaltalking youabout the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced andwill find it is for Jews. The registry is for the Jews. werefurther they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite Poles who There weredeported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. THE WAYvery few Jews deported to Siberia. andTO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... Sent:persecuted by the Soviets. registerMonday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS I didmy Theyso just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. persecuted,are ofand/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and andconcentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees passingpeople in hiding. theon information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of andmembers in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes see if this is something you would do. |
|
Re: but where in Kazakhstan???
edtar
Paul
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Rada Narodowa consisted of representatives/leaders of all political parties (except Comminists) and was like a parliament (Sejm) but its function was advisory. The leader of Rada was Mikolajczyk. There also was of course the Government. When the Prime Minister Sikorski died in the plane catastrophy Mikolajczyk became the Prime Minister. Mikolajczyk went to Poland after the war to join the so called Lublin Committee - the communist set up group. This got the allies GB & USA off the hook and they recognized the new "Polish" government. The Polish Government in London continued to exist and was recognised by the Vatican, Portugal and possibly another state. Its role ceased when Solidarity won and Walesa was elected President. The Symbolic insignia of the Polish state were transferred to Walesa and the new elected government of again independent Poland. Mikolajczyk's party was terrorised before the elections of 46 and Mikolajczyk fearing for his life escaped west. He lived here in Waszhington DC. His son lives in Florida. Edward ----- Original Message -----
From: <Paul.Havers@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: but where in Kazakhstan???
|
|
Re: but where in Kazakhstan???
edtar
Wladyslaw
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
You are almost right but almost is not history. (to 1772 about) GRODNO Belorussian part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania of the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania. 1772 to 1795 GRODNO a town in Lithuania, POLAND 1795 to 1920 GRODNO a town in Russian Empire, province of Lithuania-Belorussia 1920 to 1939 GRODNO a town in Kresy, Poland 1939 to 1941, Belorussian SSR of USSR. 1941 to 1944. under German occupation 1944to date Belarussia. Edward ----- Original Message -----
From: Wladyslaw Czapski <biorytm@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Odp: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: but where in Kazakhstan??? GRODNO"
|
|
Re: Kresy and Nieswiez
edtar
Dear Kaz,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Im am afraid your knowledge of history of the area in question is sadly below elementary. Here are several pages from "White Eagle Red Star" by Norman Davis, a renowned British historian and a professor at Berkley. It is a fragment of history of those days on Kresy. Since this is a Kresy (and not a holocaust ) group who are interested in the land of their grandfathers' fatherland the pages should be of interest to all members. I am therefore sending it to all members. Edward Tarchalski Pages 24 to 17 of the above book: Page 24 WHITE EAGLE, RED STAR by Norman Davis The American Relief Administration led by Herbert Hoover battled to keep starvation and disease at bay. The political problems remained unsolved. Caught between the twin miseries of Soviet Russia and Poland, the GERMAN army of the OBER-OST occupied a difficult position of diminishing strategic value. In March 1918, when the German occupation was established, the Ober-Ost had formed the eastern bastion of German-controlled Europe, guarded in the rear by the German and Austrian zones of occupation in Poland and on its wings by the pro-German regimes in Lithuania and the Ukraine. But the collapse of the Austrians in October followed by the expulsion of German forces from central Poland in November left the Ober-Ost dangling in space, severed from all support except in the north. There remained only a grotesquely elongated rump, over 1,000 miles long and in places only fifty miles wide. Its headquarters, and its Chief of Staff, General Max Hoffman, were in Konigsberg in East Prussia. Its two main sectors were the region controlled by General von Falkenhayn's Tenth Army based at Grodno in the north, and the Heeresgruppe Kiew in the south. Its main artery was the railway line Bialystok-Brest- Litovsk-Kowel-Rowne. Its only links with Germany were the single-track lines running into East Prussia from Grodno and Bialystok. Its entire length was open to simultaneous attack from west and east. Sooner or later the Ober-Ost would have to be evacuated. (See map, p. 28) The timing of the evacuation, however, presented a difficult problem. The German army in the east was still undefeated. It was the only disciplined force of any consequence in the area. For the time being, there was no one able to dislodge it. The Western Allies could not decide what to do. The relevant article of the Armistice stated that German troops on former Russian soil must return home Cas soon as the Allies shall think the moment suitable'. The French wanted them to withdraw immediately as a preliminary step to the disbandment of all German forces; the British and Americans thought that they should stay where they were to prevent a Bolshevik advance into Europe. As it happened, Germany in chaos was quite unable to conduct an adventurous eastern policy. The abdication of the Page 25 Kaiser and the terms of the Western Armistice put an end to political enterprise. The mutiny in Kiel, the communist risings in Munich and Berlin, the formation of Soldiers' councils in the German army, all made law and order at home the first priority. Hoffman, the Chief of Staff of the Ober-Ost, bowed to the wider requirements of his country. Discussions about the evacaation began in November and the main withdrawal proceeded from December onwards. The nature and details of German policy during the evacua- tion of the Ober-Ost have only recently been clarifiedl. Unwilling to follow an independent line of his own, Hoffman referred decisions to Berlin whence they were forwarded to the Allied powers in Paris. He regarded Poles and Bolsheviks with equal contempt. As the man who had dictated the terms of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and as undefeated Governor of the East, he was convinced that after his own departure the deluge was inevitable. His only concern was for the safety of his men. His relations with the Poles were particularly poor. He had been humiliated by the disarming of his troops in Warsaw and embarrassed by their murderous reprisals on the civilian population following an attempt to disarm them in the province of Podlasie. Although a local agreement was signed on 24 November for the evacuation of German positions on the River Bug, the more important negotiations, for transporting the Heeresgruppe Kiew through Poland to Silesia failed. Agreement was not reached until February, when develop- ments on the Soviet side of the Ober-Ost, particularly in Wilno, forced both Germans and Poles to settle their differences. In the first week of 1919, Wilno underwent two revolutions. On New Year's Day a group of local Polish officers led by Generals Wejtko and Mokrzycki staged a coup, establishing the 'Samoobrona' or Government of Self-Defence. Their aim was to forestall the communist 'Workers' Council' which was planning to seize power when the Germans withdrew and which had already issued a manifesto describing itself as the provisional government. 2 They attacked the Communist Party House in the city during the night. Some four people were killed, five committed suicide, and seventy-six were arrested. Four days later, the Samoobrona itself was overturned when the Soviet Western Army marched in from Smolensk to protect the Page 26 Workers' Council. This turn of events was equally unbearable for Pilsudski, who was a native of Wilno, and for Hoffman, whose troops had been stampeded into premature retreat. Polish and German representatives, enjoying the full authority of their respective governments, met at Bialystok on 5 February and signed an evacuation agreement. Article 5 stated that ten battalions of Polish troops, some 10,000 men, were to pass through the German lines in the area ofWolkowysk and occupy the Bolshevik front. Article 4 stated that the Germans were to enjoy temporary control of the Suwalki region until their evacuation was complete.3 Some commentators have charged Hoffman with playing a double game, with leading the Bolsheviks into the Ober-Ost from the east and the Poles from the west in the hope of exploit- ing the ensuing conflict.4 This view is too subtle. By this time, Hoffman had little choice. German sergeants were taking leave to instruct the local Red Guards. German officers had long been in contact with the anti-Bolshevik elements. Once the decision to evacuate was known, the Ober-Ost was bound to crumble. Polish and Soviet apologists offer diametrically opposed explanations of the evacuation of the Ober-Ost. Polish historians have talked of the Soviet 'invasion' of the Borderlands, as if the Borders formed an established part of Poland. Soviet historians talk of 'Polish aggression', as if the Borders were an established part of Soviet Russia. Neither view is valid. The Borders 'belonged' to nobody in 1919, unless it was to the local population whom neither Poles nor Soviets had any way of consulting. It is true that the Soviet advance into the Ober-Ost began first, with the creation on 16 November 1918 of the Soviet Western Army, which had occupied Minsk and Wilno before the Polish army made any move at all. s On 12 January 1919 the Soviet Supreme Command ordered a 'reconnaissance in depth' as far as the rivers Niemen and Szczara and on 12 February as far as the Bug.6 It is problematical whether this operation, which bore the code name 'Target Vistula' was intended to bring the Red Army as conquering heroes into Warsaw. Its name suggests so. Yet the extremely tentative phrasing of its directives and the extremely parlous state of the Western Army suggest otherwise.7 'Target Vistula' was probably Page 27 no more than a phrase inspired by revolutionary bravado. Although the Soviets might well have continued their march into Poland ifunchecked, they were obviously feeling their way rather than following any grand plan. The Warsaw govern- ment regarded the code name as proof of intent, however, and it was in this vein that Pilsudski wired Clemenceau on 28 December.8 Yet the Poles had little grounds for self-righteous- ness. As Pilsudski would have been the first to admit, he too would have sent his army into the Ober-Ost in November or December had circumstances permitted. As it was, the retirement of the German troops created a vacuum into which Polish and Soviet units moved spon- taneously. Neither side needed encouragement. The Poles set off on 9 February. A Northern Group moved up the main railway line towards Baranowicze; a Southern Group pushed towards Pinsk. The Soviet Western Army was already advanc- ing from its new bases in Minsk and Wilno. The collision occurred at seven o'clock on the morning of 14 February, when a Captain Mienicki of the Polish Wilno Detachment led fifty-seven men and five officers into the township of Bereza Kartuska. He found it occupied by the Bolsheviks. There was a short engagement in which eighty Red Army soldiers were taken prisoner. The Polish-Soviet War had begun. Although the evacuation of the Ober-Ost provided the immediate cause of the fighting, deeper causes for conflict did indeed exist. Some sort of conflict between Poland and Soviet Russia, though not necessarily military conflict, had been very likely from the moment the new Poland was created. It is almost impossible nowadays to conceive how dear the Eastern Borders were to Poles of an earlier generation. When Adam Mickiewicz, the greatest poet in Polish literature and Push kin's only rival for the laurels of Slavonic lyricism, spoke of his homeland, he spoke not of Warsa\v or of Cracow, but of Lithuania : Litwo, ojczyzna moja, ty jestes jak zdrowie ; lIe ci~ cenic trzeba, ten tylko si~ dowie Kto ci~ stracil. {Lithuania, my fatherland, you are like health; only he who has lost you can know how much you must be valued). 10 page 29 When he sang the glories of nature, he was thinking of the great beauty of the Borders. When he made his famous cri de coeur, 'Let us love one another', it was a cry for harmony amongst the many races and classes of the Borders. When Henryk Sienkiewicz set Poland alight with his tales of chivalry, it was Cossack life in 17th-century Poland that stirred his readers. Just as many great 'Englishmen' turn out to be Irishmen or Scots, so many great 'Poles', like Mickiewicz, Slowacki, or Kosciuszko, turn out to be Lithuanians. Historic Poland, from 1386 until it was dismantled in 1795, was a united commonwealth, in which the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand-Duchy of Lithuania were ruled by one king and later by one parliament, as was the case with England and Scotland after 1603. It stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea, from the Oder to the Dnieper, inhabited by a dozen nations enjoying greater liberty than any of their neighbours. It was the outpost of Christendom, warring with the Turks and Tartars in defence of the Faith, and with the Muscovites for the sway of the steppes. In 1918, when the Poles regained their independence, it was Mickiewicz and Sienkiewicz whom they read; the only Poland they knew was the historic one, with its heart in the Borders. The Bolsheviks, too, had their reasons for caring. Their love for the Borders was born not of nationalism or roman- ticism, which were attitudes they despised, but of Marxist dogma. The Borders constituted their land-link with Europe, the bridge over which the Revolution would have to march if it was to spread and survive. According to the prevailing theory, the Revolution in Russia would perish unless it could be joined by revolution in Lithuania, Poland, and, most essent- ially, in Germany. Many Bolsheviks knew the Borders intimately. Trotsky, Commissar for War, was born inYanovka, near Kherson, Feliks Dzierzynski, founder of the Cheka near Wilno, Karol Radek in Lwow. Polish plans for the Borders came in two variants-'in- corporation' and 'federation'. 'Incorporation' was advocated by Roman Dmowski, leader of the National Democratic Party, founder of the Polish National Committee in Paris and chief Polish delegate to the Peace Conference. It sought to include in Poland all lands within the historical frontiers of 1772. End of extract. ----- Original Message -----
From: Kazimierz E Bogusz <kaz136@...> To: <edtar@...> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:01 AM Subject: Re: Bolsheviks Before first War World Poland was out of map and in Poland was Tsar |
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
edtar
John,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The Brits had absolutely nothing to say in the formation of the Polish Army in the USSR. There was no plan to evacuate from the USSR. When the Army and civilians were eventually evacuated from the USSR it was the British who took care of them (there was nobody else) using the Indian army to perform the detailed tasks. You can be assured the Indian troops had no power to make such decisions on their own. The civilians were accomodated in the British Commonwealth and Colonies, viz India ( through good offices of Maharaja), Tanganyika, Kenia and Rhodesias. Mexico agreed to accomodate a group of children (the USA paid) and South Africa also agreed under diplomatic pressure. Only New Zealand offered to take care of some 1000 children unsolicited. The NZ Prime Minister saw the childeren on their way to Mexico and offered to accept a group aswell. The Polish army was stationed in Iraq (strategically, in case the Germans broke through in Caucasus) and incorporated into the British 8th army and consequently was organised according to British standards and regulations. So were the French units and Australians and New Zealanders. It Fought in Italy as part of the 8th Army. It was commanded by General Anders but the Commander in Chief of all Polish forces, including the Navy and Air Force, was the Polish Prime Minister General Sikorski. Edward. NB, I take exception to you taking exception to history. ----- Original Message -----
From: John Nieurzyla <j.nieurzyla@...> To: <Kresy-Siberia@...> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS policy and history Edward |
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
John Nieurzyla
Edward
I take exception to your phrase that the British had nothing to with forming the Polish 2nd Corp, while I have not great love for Churchill etal, it was the Indian army which were under command of the British who took the Polish refugees of the boats organised the resettlement of the families, medical aid, clothed, fed and looked after those poor souls. And then the 2nd Corp formed up with the eighth army organisation. John |
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
edtar
Stefan, you stated:
""Furthermore, is it possible that you do not remember many Jewish soldiers in Anders Army or with the cadets, after your evacuation to Persia?"" I already answered this previously: there were very few Polish Jews in the Polish army in the USSR. ""Unfortunately, most of the Jewish Poles were not able to escape to Persia with Anders Army."" The Soviets attempted to prevent Polish Jews, Belorusians and Ukrainians from reaching the Polish Army. They maintained that they were Soviet citizens since they were not ethnic Poles. Polish Army and civilians DID NOT ESCAPE from the USSR. It evacuated to Persia according to the agreement reached with the Soviets. "While General Anders issued orders that his Polish Army was to be completely non-discriminating as to its members ethnic and religious background," Polish Army was always non-discriminating as to ethnicity of its citizens. Polish Commonwealth was multi-ethnic and multi religious. It was several centuries ahead of the rest of Europe. Tolerance and civil liberties which are in fashion now have been practiced in the Polish Commonwealth for centuries past. That is why 90% of European Jews lived in the Polish Commonwealth. Jewish historians maintain that Jews had more freedom in Poland than anywhere in their history including the Kingdom of Israel. "........his British sponsors (who were occupying Palestine/Israel at the time) prohibited armed Jews from being brought in to the Middle East." First of all it was not "his" army but the Polish Army in the USSR. Secondly there were no "his British sponsors". Britain had absolutely nothing to do with the formation of the Polish Army in the USSR or anywhere else. Later when the Polish army moved from Iraq to Egypt through Palestine the British were concerned about the Jews deserting in Palestine.(there was no Israel until 1947) The Polish army command did not pursue the deserters. Palestine was a British mandated territory since they liberated it from the Turks in WWI. In 19940 the brits accupied Persia and Iraq to prevent them from falling into German hands. The Shah and king of Iraq were pro-German. Stefan try not to write history. You may distort it out of all recognition. Edward Tarchalski |
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
edtar
Stefan, you wrote:
"Ed, is it possible that you (who was there as a young man, while I wasn't) have formed your impressions because you do not personally remember many Jews among the deportees? The deportees were scattered amongst hundreds of far-flung settlements across the USSR - is it possible that not many of the Jewish deportees did not end up in your settlement?" In the area where we were deported there were 3 camps. There was not a single Jew in any of them. My family (aunts and cousins ) reported on 5 other camps. I know over 300 children from various camps in USSR (including Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan) who were in the camp in South Africa and they reported not a single Jew in their camps. In travelling south to Uzbekistan we came across transports of Jews some of whom spoke Polish (had to have been Polish Jews) who were fleeing the German advance and they were travelling as Soviet citizens. I came from a town on Kresy where over half the population was Jewish, most of whom spoke very broken Polish or none at all- they spoke Yiddish. Then there were few cultured Jews who spoke Polish well and also at home. My father was a businessman and had Jewish friend and close contact with Jews. Edward |
|
Re: SURVIVORS policy and history
edtar
Stefan, On 10/16 you wrote:
"Approximately one-third of all the deportees from Poland to Siberia, Kazakhstan, etc. were reported by the Polish Government-in-Exile to be Jewish (that would make it half a million)". Could you please identify where this is reported by the Polish Government. My memory tells me that the figure of Jews deported to Siberia was very small. Perhaps 1 or 2 % There was not a single Jew in the Junaki/Cadet school in Middle East nor were there any in the Polish camps and orphanages. The few that were there were taken over on leaving USSR by the Jewish organizations. Of the 70,000 Polish army that came out of USSR 2000 Jews deserted in Palestine (among them Menachim Begin) and some 100 remined and fought in Italy. Surely 2000 does not reflect the supposed 500,000 deportees. There were many more "Polish" Jews in the USSR but they were not deported, they went to USSR voluntarily to work there (they were escaping the Germans and were very sympathetic to the Comunists. In 1919 about 600,000 jews escaped from Russia /revolution to eastern Poland (Kresy)and most of them could not speak Polish). They were not in the forced labor camps but worked in industry and stayed in towns, perticularly in the south of USSR. Edward |
|
Re: Group Member Privacy
It's very easy to choose whether you want to receive all messages as
emails or not. Just go to My Groups and then Edit or go straight to Edit My Membership. There's no need for Stefan to have to do this. At least, this is what I have done already. Grace Stefan,does not create for you too much work. |
|
Re: SURVIVORS of the War
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýJAN,
?
thank you for the description of the museum.
?
There is so much suffering and sadness in the
world. One would have thought that people will learn a lesson from all that has
already happened. But it does not seem so, not even today.
?
And yet, I cannot accept the fact that human
aggression and cruelty will not end.
?
There must be a time when people will gain sanity
and will learn that no one can win by aggression and hate.
?
Regards,
Krystine
?
?
?
?
|
|
Re: SURVIVORS of the War
Dear Jan,
Thank you for your description of the museum! ?I had plans to take my children there on the 13th of September since they were featuring a speaker who was kidnapped and taken to a german forced labor camp, and then spent years in a dp camp, (circumstances very similar to our family) but the events of the 11th of September showed my children first-hand what atrocities mankind is capable of. Hope to put the museum trip back on the agenda for the summer. ??janie :-) |
|
Group Member Privacy
I am writing to all group members regarding privacy. Recently,
some potentially valuable members of the group have been reluctant to join because they did not want their e-mails publicised or because they were afraid of viruses. I am proposing 2 actions to encourage these members to join. 1. I can completely block access to member e-mail information. The list automatically truncates email addresses (e.g., "joe@x...") so that these are not revealed. Until now it has been possible for any member to visit the web-site and register, then be able to see who the other members are. While in a collaborative group this should not be a problem, the blocking may help some people to join and I am happy to pass messages between members "off-list" if they do not know each others e-mails - much in the way that the phone operators of old did - or to accept messages directly from any such "shadow members" and forward them to the group (as I did with Alexander's). 2. I can help any member who wants to customise the way they participate to: a) receive all e-mails as they are sent b) receive only one "digest" at the end of each day grouping all that day's e-mails into one e-mail c) receive no e-mails, but keep the ability to visit the website and read the messages there and make postings to the group there. To avoid viruses, do not open attachments. I hope that you agree that these steps are acceptable and though it may impose a slight inconvenience on me, I think this is worth it to broaden the membership to some valuable members and protect all of us from unwanted e-mails. Regards, Stefan |
|
Re: SURVIVORS of the War
Krystine,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
If you are referring to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, it's for the victims of the Holocaust, and their families. ?I have been there, and it is a wonderful Museum. ?There are memorials to those who were lost, and there are tributes from those who survived. ?There is a very large room, where a flame burns ALWAYS, and people go there to pray, or to meditate. ?Very quiet, hushed voices, a very moving place. ?There is another room, with an entire wall covered with 4 inch ceramic tiles, each painted by a child. ?These were done in schools all over the US (I think), and sent to the Museum. ?It is good to know that some schools are teaching about the Holocaust, and not trying to make it into a myth! ?The tiles are extremely touching. ?There are also tours, through the Museum, where you will see an actual cattle car, as well as full scale models of the huts where the prisoners lived. ?There are walls covered with photographs of those who died in the camps. ?And there is a wonderful exhibit of all those who helped the Jews are are now called "Righteous Among the Nations" ?That was the BEST place for me, since a relative is listed there! ?Unfortunately, I couldn't take any pictures, since they are forbidden. ?But I wanted so much to take a photo, and send it to her daughter! If you get a chance, I suggest you take the time to do the whole tour, it's quite educational. Jan Birkner ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Date: 10/17/01 4:17:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time From:? ? tomaszkc@... (Krystine Tomaszyk) Reply-to: Kresy-Siberia@... To:? ? Kresy-Siberia@... Stefan, I do congratulate you on your letter concerning the Holocaust Museum and especially your rational approach to the subject. I have only one question. The museum. Is it for the survivors of the Holocaust or the victims who have perished? I do not know very much about this mueum and would appreciate clarification. Regards, Krystine ----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Wisniowski To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War > This is in response to the recent exchanges between Ed and Janie, both of > which are well-meaning and both of which are partly right!? Ed is right that > the referenced Holocaust Museum website seems to be oriented towards Jewish > survivors.? Janie is right that it is open to all survivors of the > Nazi-Soviet alliance. > > There are many ways to look at these things, depending where you are coming > from.? I am going to make a couple of statements but they are not meant so > much to stimulate a debate, but rather to try to set a tone for this group > and to progress the cause of the eastern Polish victims of Soviet > aggression.? Please bear with me and pardon the length of this response. > > In general, the Kresy-Siberia group is set up to be a mutually supportive > and collaborative one promoting "Research, Remembrance and Recognition", and > it is REPECTFULLY REQUESTED that members maintain that spirit in order to > retain their membership. > > The question that Janie and Ed are debating is whether Polish survivors of > Soviet persecution can and should be recognised and remembered at the > Holocaust Museum in Washington. > > First of all it is a fact that they can. > > I wrote to them and asked directly if I could register my family who were > persecuted by the Soviets in 1940-42, and they said yes and sent me > registration forms.? Here is a quote from their site: "the Registry defines > a Holocaust survivor as anyone who suffered persecutions by Nazis and/or > their allies as a result of the racial, political or ethnic policies from > 1933 to 1945 and who survived the end of World War II: camp survivors, > political prisoners, persons in hiding, refugees from territories under rule > of Germany and its allies, as well as evacuees from territories which were > occupied later, etc. Other victims of persecution by the Nazis and their > allies... are also considered survivors" > > As you know, the Soviets were the allies of the Nazis in the destruction of > Poland from 1939 to 1941. > > Second of all, and here is where I am expressing a personal opinion, I > believe that the Polish survivors SHOULD be registered and recognised at the > Holocaust Museum. > > Let me explain why.? It is true that the U.S. Holocaust Museum is dominated > by remembrance of Jewish victims.? This is not surprising, as the Jews were > a primary target of the Nazi genocide and drove the establishment of the > museum.? However, while it is normal to feel it unfair that Polish victims > of the Nazis (and the Soviets) are not recognised in the same way as the > Jewish victims are, the question is what to do about it and how to change > that. > > I suggest that the best way to change this is for the Poles to take their > place alongside the other victims and recognise their suffering together, > rather than to avoid the established memorial centres as being "only for the > Jews". > > The Holocaust Museum in Washington was set up by the American Government as > THE institution to remember and recognise ALL victims of the Nazis and their > allies.? In the absence of a POLISH-ONLY HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, why not take > advantage of the U.S. HOLOCAUST MUSEUM to recognise our families and their > courage to survive the Soviets? > > Here's an idea that has fired my imagination! > > For the Registry's purposes, anyone displaced by the racial, political and > ethnic policies of the Nazis or their allies who survived until the end of > the war is considered a survivor.? The Registry of Holocaust Survivors > currently contains the names of over 115,000 survivors - most in the United > States or Canada, although some from survivors who live in other countries. > > Imagine how public opinion would be shaped if we were to register the names > of the over 100,000 Polish survivors of the Soviet Gulags who escaped > through Persia with General Anders at the Holocaust Museum?? Though we > actually have tens of thousands of names and brief histories at the Hoover > Institution, the only catch is that survivors need to fill out the > registration themselves or be registered by their relatives. > > Okay, so that let's Irene at the Hoover off the hook!? But what if the 50 > members of this group registered their own family survivors as a start and > we got the ball rolling on this recognition and remembrance thing?? That > would be hundreds of names.? There are also spaces for 2nd and 3rd > generation descendants of the Survivors (guys like me). > > In short, I would encourage all of us with WW2 Survivors in our families to > take up our rightful place by going to > http://www.ushmm.org/remembrance/registry/ and getting the form and > registering them.? (Forms are even available in Polish!) > > If somebody does not want to take up this right and opportunity, of course > that is completely up to them. > > Kindest regards, > > -- > Stefan Wisniowski > Moderator, Kresy-Siberia > > QUOTE FROM www.ushmm.org/museum/council/mission.htm > "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's national > institution for the documentation, study, and interpretation of Holocaust > history, and serves as this country's memorial to the millions of people > murdered during the Holocaust. > > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and > annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between > 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims --- six million were murdered; > Gypsies, the handicapped, and Poles were also targeted for destruction or > decimation for racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political > dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. > > The Museum's primary mission is to advance and disseminate knowledge about > this unprecedented tragedy; to preserve the memory of those who suffered; > and to encourage its visitors to reflect upon the moral and spiritual > questions raised by the events of the Holocaust as well as their own > responsibilities as citizens of a democracy." > > > From: "edtar" > > Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:59 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > > > > > > Dear Janie, when yoy say they are trying to include everyone you are talking > > about the holocaust museum/memorial. If you go to the web you referenced you > > will find it is for Jews.? The registry is for the Jews. > > I am not a Jew and most if not all Kresy-Siberia members are non Jews and > > further they are mostly Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Unite? Poles who were > > deported to the slave labor camps in the USSR or their descendants. There were > > very few Jews deported to Siberia. > > By the way, who were the Associates of the Gemans/Nazis???? > > Edward > > > >> --- Original Message ----- > >> From: jmicchelli@... > >> To: Kresy-Siberia@... > >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 3:59 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >> > >> Dear Ed, > >> If you go to the web-site, you will see that they are trying to include > >> EVERYONE > >> WHO WAS AFFECTED BY THE NAZIS AND THEIR ASSOCIATES........ > >> THAT INCLUDES MY FAMILY AS WELL AS YOURS..............AND IF THIS IS THE WAY > >> TO GET RECOGNIZATION, SO BE IT.......... > >> JANIE > >> > >> > >>> You have your wires crossed. > >>> Holocaust memerial is for Jews who were persecuted by the Germans. > >>> Kresy-Siberia is for all Polish citizens who were deported to Siberia and > >>> persecuted by the Soviets. > >>> Ed Tarchalski > >>> > >>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: jmicchelli@... To: > >>>> ":Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com ; "To:Kresy-Siberia"@yahoogroups.com Sent: > >>>> Monday, October 15, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Stefan and other group members, > >>>> > >>>> A few months ago I wrote Stefan, to tell him that I was going to register > >>>> my > >>>> family at this site, it is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, I did > >>>> so just a few weeks ago, here is a click-on with more information. They > >>>> are > >>>> looking to document survivors of the Holocaust (this is not only for > >>>> members > >>>> of the Jewish community). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Click here: Remembrance | Registry of Holocaust Survivors > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Registry defines a survivor as a person who was displaced, persecuted, > >>>> and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, and > >>>> political > >>>> policies of the Nazis and their allies. In addition to former inmates of > >>>> concentration camps and ghettos this includes, among others, refugees and > >>>> people in hiding. > >>>> > >>>> Please help us to document survivors who are not yet registered by passing > >>>> on information about this Registry. ---------- I think that a lot of the > >>>> members in this group qualify as survivors, please take a few minutes and > >>>> see if this is something you would do. > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP > +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia > +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? www.AForgottenOdyssey.com > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. > +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +? ? To Subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: > +? ? Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@... AND > +? ? a message to Kresy-Siberia-owner@... > +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +?? To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@... > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? +?? Research, Remembrance, Recognition? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Websites:? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia? +? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http:/www.AForgottenOdyssey.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? Replies to this message will go directly to the full list. +? ? Send e-mails to:? Kresy-Siberia@...?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +? ? To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail to: +? ? Kresy-Siberia-owner@...? ? +? ? saying who you are and your interest in the group? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +?? To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:?? +?? Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...? ? ? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from? rly-xd04.mail.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINXD21-1017041757; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 04:17:57 -0400 Received: from? n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD49-1017041730; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 04:17:31 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-3990911-138-1003306640-JCBSERV=aol.com@... Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2001 08:18:15 -0000 X-Sender: tomaszkc@... X-Apparently-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 17 Oct 2001 08:17:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21997 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2001 08:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) ? by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 17 Oct 2001 08:17:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO creative.actrix.co.nz) (203.96.26.135) ? by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Oct 2001 08:17:15 -0000 Received: from pavilion (wn-d142.connections.net.nz [202.154.130.142]) ? ? by creative.actrix.co.nz (Postfix) with SMTP id 56666BAF ? ? for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:16:26 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <004901c156e5$860ec920$cb829aca@pavilion> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Krystine Tomaszyk" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list Kresy-Siberia@...; contact Kresy-Siberia-owner@... Delivered-To: mailing list Kresy-Siberia@... Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:26:01 +1300 Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@... Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] SURVIVORS of the War Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
to navigate to use esc to dismiss