Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
Thank you, Stefan, for asserting your authority as our moderator. I was
getting a bit uncomfortable reading the postings on our digest...
Amos ZEZMER
Yerres, France
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
I do not believe that it is possible to discuss history in a vacuum.? While I agree that discussing current events can be a slippery slope, events that affect the re-telling of history is an important and even necessary debate we must have.? Political control of the content of museums, written history and all other forms of memorializing the war or any other event is a trait we universally criticize in totalitarian regimes.? Why then should we be shy of discussing similar (even mild) such attempts in Poland or any country?
Stefan is right in that politics and history do not mix.? This does not mean that we should be silent when the telling of history is overtaken by politics.? We should, as a matter of policy, resist the intrusion of politics influence on that telling.? This is vastly different from a normal political discussion.? To believe that KS or Poland are somehow immune from the same ills is be naive and we dishonor the lives of our ancestors by pretending that we are.
I refer you again to Orwell, this time to his satire "Animal Farm" Chapter VI.
"Muriel," she said, "read me the Fourth Commandment. Does it not say
something about never sleeping in a bed?"
With some difficulty Muriel spelt it out.
"It says, 'No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets,"' she announced
finally.
Curiously enough, Clover had not remembered that the Fourth Commandment
mentioned sheets; but as it was there on the wall, it must have done so.
And Squealer, who happened to be passing at this moment, attended by two
or three dogs, was able to put the whole matter in its proper perspective.
"You have heard then, comrades," he said, "that we pigs now sleep in the
beds of the farmhouse? And why not? You did not suppose, surely, that
there was ever a ruling against beds? A bed merely means a place to sleep
in. A pile of straw in a stall is a bed, properly regarded. The rule was
against sheets, which are a human invention. We have removed the sheets
from the farmhouse beds, and sleep between blankets. And very comfortable
beds they are too! But not more comfortable than we need, I can tell you,
comrades, with all the brainwork we have to do nowadays. You would not rob
us of our repose, would you, comrades? You would not have us too tired to
carry out our duties? Surely none of you wishes to see Jones back?"
The animals reassured him on this point immediately, and no more was said
about the pigs sleeping in the farmhouse beds. And when, some days
afterwards, it was announced that from now on the pigs would get up an
hour later in the mornings than the other animals, no complaint was made
about that either.
Bernie
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
Stefan Wisniowski
As I wrote below, I did not intend to make any further comment in this thread, but since you have forced me to do so by asking these questions, I will respond here.
My reference to an "EU" view of WW2 was purely in direct juxtaposition to Timothy Snyder's quotation, which I repeat here: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "?
So, an "EU" view of WW2 is a "non-nationalistic" view, pure and simple. Whatever is a "nationalist" viewpoint for the design and implementation of a WW2 museum is for Snyder to more fully explain. As he is an eminent historian, I bow to his superior knowledge and experience. And if a "nationalist" museum was good enough for Germany, France USA, etc, then it is certainly good enough for Poland - and for me. That is all that I was trying to say.
Hopefully Helpful Suggestion: I am a Moderator on the Polish Media Issues Debating Arm Facebook page (and on the main PMI page, which normally has a very restricted post criteria, as they must all be "action-able" posts). Occasionally we find on the PMI-DA that we have to not allow a post to appear because we have found that certain (very small in number) topics are almost guaranteed to raise controversy which creates much more heat than light. As the Gdansk Museum is already known to be a controversial issue, I am hoping that the, to all appearances, "innocent" question about "what's going on there" in Gdansk was indeed purely innocent, especially as that same person went on to tell a very anti-Polish joke in a later post.
Regards, Dan Zamoyski
To: Kresy-Siberia@... From: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 03:51:56 +1000 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
?
Dan Zamoyski What is an "EU"-political view of WW2 and what is wrong with it? ?Last I heard, EU officially condemned Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as the aggressors ("Black Ribbon" Day). What have you heard?
Regards Stefan Wisniowski? Sydney
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 25 May 2016, at 21:09, Dan Zamoyski zamoyski@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum [1 Attachment]
Panie Stefan--well said. ?We are on the edge of a "slippery slope".
Pozdrawiam z Seattle, Antek?
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Show quoted text
On May 31, 2016, at 11:21 AM, stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Dear members
The recent "yellow card" warning to respect discussion group rules and avoid discussions of current politics has been ignored, leading to this "red card" action.
The offending post all about Poland's political situation has been removed and the member posting it has been placed on probation, meaning that his messages will now be screened and require moderator approval before they are published.?
Again, these rules have held the group in good stead since it was founded in 2001, and ongoing vigilance is required to keep it from degenerating. We are "Dedicated to research, recognize and remember Poland’s citizens fighting for freedom and survival in eastern Poland and in forced exile during WW2.
Group membership is by approval only, open to all persons who introduce themselves, explain their interest, confidentially register their contact details and respect group rules. Discussions are moderated and messages are kept private to members.?
The basic rules are to keep comments on topic and to respect group values.?
We all strive to avoid disparaging or offending other group members - this is a friendly and supportive group with common goals rather than a debating society. We are all trying to learn from each other, not score points.?
We avoid commenting on current politics that could cause dissension in the group. Prejudicial remarks of a religious or racial nature are not tolerated. Group Moderators reserve the right to warn, suspend or remove anyone who is unable to respect these rules.
Your understanding and support is appreciated to keep the group supportive, helpful and special.
Regards Stefan Wisniowski Moderator
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
The evidence from my last post about Gdańsk Museum should be sufficient from just minutes ago. I will not quote it again here. If you need a few more examples I will find them, as I know them well. By the way, can we afford switching to the bulletin board? Nowadays it is called forum. Then we will have subjects separated and following question - answer format.?
?
Jan Gan
Any claim is unsubstantiated until evidence is provided. Please provide evidence for the professor's claim if you agree with ?it, as he has not.? Regards
?
Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
Dear members
The recent "yellow card" warning to respect discussion group rules and avoid discussions of current politics has been ignored, leading to this "red card" action.
The offending post all about Poland's political situation has been removed and the member posting it has been placed on probation, meaning that his messages will now be screened and require moderator approval before they are published.?
Again, these rules have held the group in good stead since it was founded in 2001, and ongoing vigilance is required to keep it from degenerating. We are "Dedicated to research, recognize and remember Poland’s citizens fighting for freedom and survival in eastern Poland and in forced exile during WW2.
Group membership is by approval only, open to all persons who introduce themselves, explain their interest, confidentially register their contact details and respect group rules. Discussions are moderated and messages are kept private to members.?
The basic rules are to keep comments on topic and to respect group values.?
We all strive to avoid disparaging or offending other group members - this is a friendly and supportive group with common goals rather than a debating society. We are all trying to learn from each other, not score points.?
We avoid commenting on current politics that could cause dissension in the group. Prejudicial remarks of a religious or racial nature are not tolerated. Group Moderators reserve the right to warn, suspend or remove anyone who is unable to respect these rules.
Your understanding and support is appreciated to keep the group supportive, helpful and special.
Regards Stefan Wisniowski Moderator
|
Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
Dan Zamoyski What is an "EU"-political view of WW2 and what is wrong with it? ?Last I heard, EU officially condemned Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as the aggressors ("Black Ribbon" Day). What have you heard?
Regards Stefan Wisniowski? Sydney
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 25 May 2016, at 21:09, Dan Zamoyski zamoyski@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
Jan Gan
Any claim is unsubstantiated until evidence is provided. Please provide evidence for the professor's claim if you agree with ?it, as he has not.? Regards
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 26 May 2016, at 20:46, Jan Gan janus375@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Thank you Chaim I appreciate your words. Keep on searching. Jan On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Jan
Brilliantly stated. You encourage me and thousands of others to continue
researching and endeavoring to understand the monumental history of the
people of Poland. I have been working in many fields at the same time.
Lately I have been working tirelessly with a second cousin to research the
Majersdorf family in all of Poland and to attempt to find the threads that
may bind us together. We are currently stuck somewhere in the late 1790’s
but hope for a breakthrough. My father and my wife’s father never renounced
their Polish citizenship and in fact paid dearly for it. The Russians
pressured them relentlessly to renounce their Polish citizenship and take
Russian citizenship. They refused and were therefore exiled into
Archangelsk where the family almost perished. We the children of these
proud Polish citizens were raised to respect the Polish people of all
ethnic origins. That is why I regard the work of Kresy Sibera as a mission
of the highest importance.
Carry on, we are with you.
Chaim Meiersdorf
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Monday, May 30, 2016 4:28 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Chaim,
I share here my experience and knowledge and do not expect anybody to read
what I read. I quote historic publications to show were my views come from
or are based on. In case someone does not believe me it is a source to
check my information. Some people think that if they do knot know
something, such a thing does not exists. It also applies to the history.
As a member of this group and descendant of polish fighters for freedom I
feel that my duty here is not only to search for traces of my ancestors. I
am obliged also to uphold the very values for which they suffered and paid
with their lives. One of them is to defend Poland and Poles against
defamation, false accusations, falsifying history. Which is not only very
common, but also has a form of planned, organized actions, cleverly
disguised as to look as coincidental events or just mistakes. There are too
many of them, to be treated as such.
Anyway we are proud of you and your father for fighting for freedom of
Poland in the Polish Army. And you, for researching and preserving his
history. If there are any publicly available documents or stories of your
father, please let me know. You may have different goals now and other
things are important to you than those of your father. You and I may have
contradictory interests, but we should have common understanding of what
has happened in the past, and what is going now. That requires full
disclosure of materials facts. It will never happen, but at least we should
try to go into that direction.
with regards
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 2:57 PM, 'Lenarda Szymczak'
szymczak01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...>
wrote:
Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart cry for the
inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming. All
suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion,
understanding and research. The pain and suffering is the same, whether
we are black, white or green. Thank you for sharing this.
Lenarda, Sydney Australia
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Monday, 30 May 2016 9:26 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Hi there, Pan Jan!
Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my
mother, Pani Olga!
Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell
because of too many sins committed in this life.
However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him
on a tour of Hell.
They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out
of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others
would pull him back in.
Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also
trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the
others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out.
The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so
different from those in the other pit?"
The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so
jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear
him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell
forever.
The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep
escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!"
Cheers!
Dear Marie
Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and
exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story
somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that
particular subject says well known
Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who
survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in
Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the
European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine).
As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself.
Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet.
I am the one, who saw that, watched closely,
As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks
Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing
and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words.
I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers -
Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die
I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace -
Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews!
Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street
As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad
With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild
They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes.
Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains
With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear,
They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest
Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God
They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed,
and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!"
They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for
longer,
To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits.
And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here
Still street, one shout has become and horror -
From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before -
Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons...
In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands.
Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout.
They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and
nothing more.
With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild!
At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them,
German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere,
He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands!
I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s.
23.
Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the
truth, yours or switched?
See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good
when published.
Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english.
Here is the polish text of the poem
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@...
[Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s
books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the
same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the
reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested.
Chaim
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:36 PM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only
reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the
author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any
ani-Jewish views. As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do,
historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents
very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something
from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise
it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation.
On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to
have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the
case, please do not try to silence anybody here. I do not care about what
views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years.
What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on
facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of
books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but
in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many
parts.
We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex,
enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers,
tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish. A
lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist
regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison.
That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is
no place for accusation here. We just need to know the facts. As prof. Ewa
Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of
my nation." She was thinking about Poles.
You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the
history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during
WW2."
That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history
without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life,
tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have
pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never
heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the
reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also,
that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it.
Jan
On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf
chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...>
wrote:
I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on
Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought
that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened
to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald
and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group.
Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone
any good.
Thank you
Chaim Meiersdorf
*From:* Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:
Kresy-Siberia@...]
*Sent:* Sunday, May 29, 2016 11:36 AM
*To:* Kresy-Siberia@...
*Subject:* Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
The History
Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?
Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores
of books and devote years of work to one subject?
None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical
books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of
historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular
subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection
to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An
Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century
Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald
. The other are his essays from The
Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze
studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.
For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I
have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not
know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after
reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how
the world works, they make it work the way they want.
As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to
which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw
Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre
fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of
those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german
newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than
Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15
Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.
- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born
1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a
lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor
Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996.
We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him
I gave you onet.pl source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It
is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by
Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is
the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in
Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since
2012 (75%).
Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians
performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians,
politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after
his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated
his stance.
,artykuly,370968,1.html
Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty.
It would be easier to trengthen the compensation claims for jewish lost
properties in Poland.
Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we
can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to
pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest
historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my
opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is
fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.
Jan
On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski
stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <
Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Bernie,
Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was
behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2.
Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a
socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.
As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of
doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves
with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is
strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a government
supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no
business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they
are against our mission, we must resist them, no matter what our personal
opinions.
Regards
*Stefan Wisniowski*
Kresy-Siberia Foundation
On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <
Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount
dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans
were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their
administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to
live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize
farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as
comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead
them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations
and selective killings. Under normal circumstances this is a horrible
thing. But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder
they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least
- the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human
beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or
tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1)
<>. But
secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of
identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond
good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its
interests. *Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism*. Both
words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to
be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two
different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean
devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one
believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other
people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and
culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire
for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power
and more prestige, *not* for himself but for the nation or other unit in
which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting
to. It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate
what history is. ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS
need to be resisted. I read into your comments that you are concerned
that there may be a political cost to opposing them. This is exactly the
problem I am warning about.
|
Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Jan
Brilliantly stated. You encourage me and thousands of others to continue researching and endeavoring to understand the monumental history of the people of Poland. I have been working in many fields at the same time. Lately I have been working tirelessly with a second cousin to research the Majersdorf family in all of Poland and to attempt to find the threads that may bind us together. We are currently stuck somewhere in the late 1790’s but hope for a breakthrough. My father and my wife’s father never renounced their Polish citizenship and in fact paid dearly for it. The Russians pressured them relentlessly to renounce their Polish citizenship and take Russian citizenship. They refused and were therefore exiled into Archangelsk where the family almost perished. We the children of these proud Polish citizens were raised to respect the Polish people of all ethnic origins. That is why I regard the work of Kresy Sibera as a mission of the highest importance.
Carry on, we are with you.
Chaim Meiersdorf
From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 4:28 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Chaim,
I share here my experience and knowledge and do not expect anybody to read what I read. I quote historic publications to show were my views come from or are based on. In case someone does not believe me it is a source to check my information. Some people think that if they do knot know something, such a thing does not exists. It also applies to the history.
As a member of this group and descendant of polish fighters for freedom I feel that my duty here is not only to search for traces of my ancestors. I am obliged also to uphold the very values for which they suffered and paid with their lives. One of them is to defend Poland and Poles against defamation, false accusations, falsifying history. Which is not only very common, but also has a form of planned, organized actions, cleverly disguised as to look as coincidental events or just mistakes. There are too many of them, to be treated as such.
Anyway we are proud of you and your father for fighting for freedom of Poland in the Polish Army. And you, for researching and preserving his history. If there are any publicly available documents or stories of your father, please let me know. You may have different goals now and other things are important to you than those of your father. You and I may have contradictory interests, but we should have common understanding of what has happened in the past, and what is going now. That requires full disclosure of materials facts. It will never happen, but at least we should try to go into that direction.
with regards
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 2:57 PM, 'Lenarda Szymczak' szymczak01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart cry for the inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming. All suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion, understanding and research. The pain and suffering is the same, whether we are black, white or green. Thank you for sharing this.
Lenarda, Sydney Australia
From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Monday, 30 May 2016 9:26 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Hi there, Pan Jan!
Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my mother, Pani Olga!
Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell because of too many sins committed in this life.
However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him on a tour of Hell.
They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others would pull him back in.
Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out.
The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so different from those in the other pit?"
The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell forever.
The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!"
Cheers!
Dear Marie
Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that particular subject says well known
Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine). As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself. Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet.
I am the one, who saw that, watched closely,
As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks
Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing
and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words.
I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers -
Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die
I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace -
Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews!
Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street
As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad
With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild
They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes.
Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains
With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear,
They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest
Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God
They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed,
and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!"
They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for longer,
To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits.
And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here
Still street, one shout has become and horror -
From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before -
Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons...
In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands.
Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout.
They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and nothing more.
With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild!
At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them,
German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere,
He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands!
I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s. 23.
Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the truth, yours or switched?
See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good when published.
Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english.
Here is the polish text of the poem
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested.
Chaim
From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:36 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views. As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation.
On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here. I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts.
We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish. A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles.
You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2."
That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it.
Jan
On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good.
Thank you
Chaim Meiersdorf
From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 11:36 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
The History
Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?
Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject?
None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald . The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.
For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want.
As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.
- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him
I gave you onet.pl source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%).
Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ,artykuly,370968,1.html
Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.
Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.
Jan
On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Bernie,
Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.
As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them, no matter what our personal opinions.
Regards
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation
On 28 May 2016, at 04:40, bernard_starzewski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings. Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing. But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1) <> . But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to. It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is. ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted. I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them. This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
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Show quoted text
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested. Chaim ? ? ? That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation. On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts. We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles. You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2." That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it. ? ? On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good. Thank you Chaim Meiersdorf ? ? ? Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland. For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want. As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation. - says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%). Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.? Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions. ? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.? As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions. ? Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
? ?
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
I find myself in complete agreement with Eve!
Here in Wisconsin USA we have been experiencing a crony driven state government with political hacks installed as managers and the elimination of the civil service exams replaced by hiring at those manager's whim.? University tenure which shields academics from political pressure has been gutted.? It seems that Poland is going down the same track.
In fact dziadek Antoni and dad often bitterly complained about the same thing in the 2nd Republic.? dziadek was a Pilsudski man and fiercely advocated for a united Poland with equality for all including Jews and Ukrainians and a fair justice system.? He told one story where a Polish administrator had an attraction to a Ukrainian maid in his employ but when she rejected his advances he accused her of theft and sent the police to arrest her.? Antoni came to her defense and borrowed his cousin's shotgun and put on his military uniform with his medals and stood in the doorway of her family's home and sent them packing.
He later discovered that the same official and his pals were using his name to illegally obtain free materials and land from the government without his knowledge. Poland had no budget for veterans but used such benefits as a form of retirement pay.? The resulting legal fight did not go well for him and he was forced to take a different job with the railroad in Jaroslaw leaving Markostaw behind.
I see the same kind of nonsense repeating itself here.? History is important because helps us avoid the mistakes of the past.? Political dabbling in historical study and publication is a dangerous thing and to be avoided at all costs!
Bernie
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Chaim,
I share here my experience and knowledge and do not expect anybody to read what I read. I quote historic publications to show were my views come from or are based on. In case someone does not believe me it is a source to check my information. Some people think that if they do knot know something, such a thing does not exists. It also applies to the history.
As a member of this group and descendant of polish fighters for freedom I feel that my duty here is not only to search for traces of my ancestors. I am obliged also to uphold the very values for which they suffered and paid with their lives. One of them is to defend Poland and Poles against defamation, false accusations, falsifying history. Which is not only very common, but also has a form of planned, organized actions, cleverly disguised as to look as coincidental events or just mistakes. There are too many of them, to be treated as such.?
Anyway we are proud of you and your father for fighting for freedom of Poland in the Polish Army. And you, for researching and preserving his history. If there are any publicly available documents or stories of your father, please let me know. You may have different goals now and other things are important to you than those of your father. You and I may have contradictory interests, but we should have common understanding of what has happened in the past, and what is going now. That requires full disclosure of materials facts. It will never happen, but at least we should try to go into that direction.
with regards Jan?
?
Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart ?cry for the inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming.?? All suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion, understanding and research. ??The pain and suffering is the same, whether we are black, white or green.? Thank you for sharing this. Lenarda, Sydney Australia ? ? ? ? Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my mother, Pani Olga! Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell because of too many sins committed in this life. However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him on a tour of Hell. They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others would pull him back in. Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out. The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so different from those in the other pit?" The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell forever. The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!" Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that particular subject says well known? Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine). As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself. Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet. I am the one, who saw that, watched closely, As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words. I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers - Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace - Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews! Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes. Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear, They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed, and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!" They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for longer, To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits. And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here Still street, one shout has become and horror -? From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before - Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons... In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands. Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout. They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and nothing more. With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild! At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them, German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere, He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands! I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s. 23. Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the truth, yours or switched? See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good when published. Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english. Here is the polish text of the poem ? On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested. Chaim ? ? ? That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation. On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts. We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles. You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2." That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it. ? ? On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good. Thank you Chaim Meiersdorf ? ? ? Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland. For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want. As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation. - says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%). Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.? Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions. ? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.? As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions. ? Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
? ? ?
|
Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Jan, you brought tears to my eyes and made my heart ?cry for the inhumanity, we have had enough of bitching and biting and blaming.?? All suffered and we must all try to help each other with compassion, understanding and research. ??The pain and suffering is the same, whether we are black, white or green. ?Thank you for sharing this. Lenarda, Sydney Australia ? ?
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From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Monday, 30 May 2016 9:26 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749? ? Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my mother, Pani Olga! Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell because of too many sins committed in this life. However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him on a tour of Hell. They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others would pull him back in. Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out. The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so different from those in the other pit?" The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell forever. The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!" Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that particular subject says well known? Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine). As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself. Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet. I am the one, who saw that, watched closely, As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words. I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers - Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace - Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews! Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes. Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear, They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed, and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!" They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for longer, To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits. And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here Still street, one shout has become and horror -? From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before - Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons... In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands. Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout. They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and nothing more. With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild! At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them, German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere, He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands! I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s. 23. Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the truth, yours or switched? See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good when published. Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english. Here is the polish text of the poem ? On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested. Chaim ? ? ? That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation. On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts. We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles. You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2." That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it. ? ? On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good. Thank you Chaim Meiersdorf ? ? ? Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland. For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want. As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation. - says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%). Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.? Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions. ? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.? As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions. ? Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
? ? ?
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Hi there, Pan Jan!
Here is a funny story related to us long ago by a family friend of my mother, Pani Olga!
Once upon a time a poor fellow died and unfortunately was sent to Hell because of too many sins committed in this life.
However before assigning him to his eternal punishment the Devil took him on a tour of Hell.
They came to a big pit full of angry people who were trying to climb out of the pit but whenever one got to the top and tried to get out the others would pull him back in.
Then they came to another pit fully of not-quite-so-angry people also trying to climb out of their pit but when one got close to the top the others would push him up and when he got out he would help pull others out.
The new arrival asked the Devil:- "Why are the people in this pit so different from those in the other pit?"
The Devil answered:- "That first pit is full of Poles, they are always so jealous of each other that when one succeeds the others will try to tear him down and make him fail anyway and they are so easy to keep in Hell forever.
The second pit is full of Jews, they always help each other, and they keep escaping from this place, I can never keep them in here!"
Cheers!
Dear Marie
Thank you for submitting this joke. Let's play a little with it and exchange places of the words Poles and Jews. Now, let's check if the story somehow is not closer to the truth then before? Here is what on that particular subject says well known? Jewish teacher, poet and dramatist Itzhak Katzenelson, a Polish Jew who survived the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, to be murdered a year later in Auschwitz. During his internment in Vittel, he wrote a requiem for the European Jewry. But he also wrote a poem "O, bólu" (Ou, the pain of mine). As I could not find any English translation of the poem, I did it myself. Forgive me an awkward language. I am not a poet.
I am the one, who saw that, watched closely, As children, wives and husbands, and my old gray-haired folks Like stones and logs on carts executioner was throwing and beating them without a shade of pity, insulting with inhuman words.
I was watching through the window, I saw gang of murderers - Oh, God, I saw beating and beaten, who are going to die I wrung my hands in shame... shame and disgrace - Hands of the Jews caused Jews death - helpless Jews!
Traitors, in shiny boots, who ran along the empty street As with a swastika on caps - with the shield of David, went mad With mugs what the word foreign to them hurts, arrogant and wild They who threw us down the stairs, who dragged us out of homes.
Who tore the door from frames, violantly inviding, the villains With the club raised to strike - homes seized with fear, They beat us, drove elderly, sped our youngest Somewhere on terrified streets. And they spit straight in the face of God They were finding us in cabinets and pulled out from under the bed, and cursed; "Move, to hell, to umschlag, there is your place!" They dragged all of us from our homes, then they rummage in them for longer, To take last clothes, a piece of bread and grits.
And on the street - to go mad! Look and go numb, as here Still street, one shout has become and horror -? From stem to stern empty, yet full, as never before - Wagons! And from despair, and shout, it is hard to wagons...
In them - Jews. They tear hairs from the heads, wring their hands. Some are silent - their silence is even louder shout. They are looking... their eyes... Is that real? Maybe a bad dream and nothing more. With them, the Jewish police - thugs cruel and wild! At the side - a German, with a slight smile is looking at them, German stopped, from afar he looks - he does not interfere, He causes death of my Jews with Jewish hands!
I. Kacenelson, Pie?ń o zamordowanym ?ydowskim narodzie, Warszawa 1982, s. 23.
Now, judge yourself, which of the versions of your joke is closer to the truth, yours or switched? See, it is not worth to stick to the bad jokes, they do not do any good when published.
Here are the books, you can buy in the USA, none in english.
Here is the polish text of the poem
Jan
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested. Chaim ? ? ? That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation. On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts. We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles. You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2." That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it. ? ? On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good. Thank you Chaim Meiersdorf ? ? ? Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland. For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want. As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation. - says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%). Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.? Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions. ? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.? As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions. ? Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
? ?
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Basic rules for Kresy-Siberia Group / podstawowe wytyczne Grupy Kresy-Syberia [1 Attachment]
Yes I agree and accept the rules. Chaim ?
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Show quoted text
From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 8:22 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia Group
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Basic rules for Kresy-Siberia Group / podstawowe wytyczne Grupy Kresy-Syberia [1 Attachment]
Importance: High? ? Dear members /?Drodzy cz?onkowie I am concerned that some of our new (and not so new) members have lately been?transgressing?the basic guidelines for the Kresy-Siberia Group. ?For everyone's convenience, I reproduce them here: We are dedicated to research, recognize and remember Poland’s citizens fighting for freedom and survival in eastern Poland and in forced exile during WW2. Group membership is by approval only, open to all persons who introduce themselves, explain their interest, confidentially register their contact details and respect group rules. Discussions are moderated and messages are kept private to members.? The basic rules are to keep comments on topic and to respect group values.? We all strive to avoid disparaging or offending other group members - this is a friendly and supportive group with common goals rather than a debating society. We are all trying to learn from each other, not score points.? We avoid commenting on current politics that could cause dissension in the group. Prejudicial remarks of a religious or racial nature are not tolerated. Group Moderators reserve the right to warn, suspend or remove anyone who is unable to respect these rules. We ask your support in sharing information and photos, recording Survivor interviews and volunteering on the Virtual Museum , events or charity administration. To fund all of these activities, we also ask all members to make a voluntary Subscriber donation of US$40 per year or more ?at: . Obawiam si?, ?e niektórzy z naszych nowszych – i nie tak nowych – cz?onków ostatnio przekraczaj? podstawowe wytyczne Grupy Kresy-Syberia. Dla ka?dego wygody przytaczam je ni?ej: Kresy-Syberia jet po?wi?cona do badania, upami?tnienia i uznania obywateli Polski, walcz?cych o ?ycie i wolno?? w okresie II wojny ?wiatowej, w Kresach wschodnich i na uchod?stwie.? Cz?onkostwo grupy dyskusyjnej jest jedynie przez zatwierdzenie, dla wszystkich osób, którzy przedstawiaj? si?, wyja?niaj? swoje zainteresowanie, poufnie zarejestruj? swoje dane kontaktowe i szanuj? zasady grupy. Dyskusje s? moderowane i wiadomo?ci s? prywatne dla uczestników. Podstawowe zasady grupy zawieraj? ograniczenie dyskusji do tematu i poszanowanie warto?ci grupy.? Jeste?my przyjazn? i wzajemnie wspieraj?c? grup? ludzi, którzy d??? uczy? si? razem a nie ?ko?em debat gdzie zaliczamy punkty. Unikamy lekcewa?enia lub obra?ania innych cz?onków grupy.? Unikamy komentowanie bie??cej polityki, aby nie spowodowa? niezgod? w grupie. Uwagi szkodliwe o charakterze religijnym lub rasowym nie s? tolerowane. Moderatorzy zastrzegaj? sobie prawo do ostrzegania, zawieszenia lub usuni?cia ka?dego, kto nie przestrzega tych zasad. Prosimy równie? o wsparcie, podzieleniem si? informacj? i zdj?ciami, nagrywaniem wywiadów z weteranami i Sybirakami, lub zg?oszeniem si? jako wolontariusz nad Wirtualne Muzeum , imprezach lub administracji charytatywnej. Na finansowanie kosztów wszystkich tych dzia?ań, prosimy wszystkich cz?onków, aby dobrowolnie podarowali co najmniej na poziomie abonenta USD40 rocznie b?d? wi?cej, poprzez stron?: ______________________________________________________________________________ Stefan Wi?niowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President Prezes Fundacji Kresy-Syberia Virtual Museum/Wirtualne Muzeum:
Discussion group/Grupa dyskusyjna: Facebook Page/Strona na fejsie:
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Basic rules for Kresy-Siberia Group / podstawowe wytyczne Grupy Kresy-Syberia
*Dear members /?Drodzy cz?onkowie*
I am concerned that some of our new (and not so new) members have lately been?transgressing?the basic guidelines for the Kresy-Siberia Group. ?For everyone's convenience, I reproduce them here:
We are dedicated to research, recognize and remember Poland’s citizens fighting for freedom and survival in eastern Poland and in forced exile during WW2.
Group membership is by approval only, open to all persons who introduce themselves, explain their interest, confidentially register their contact details and respect group rules. Discussions are moderated and messages are kept private to members.
*The basic rules are to keep comments on topic and to respect group values.*
We all strive to avoid disparaging or offending other group members - this is a friendly and supportive group with common goals rather than a debating society. We are all trying to learn from each other, not score points.
*We avoid commenting on current politics that could cause dissension in the group*.
*Prejudicial remarks of a religious or racial nature are not tolerated.*
Group Moderators reserve the right to warn, suspend or remove anyone who is unable to respect these rules.
We ask your support in sharing information and photos, recording Survivor interviews and volunteering on the Virtual Museum www.KRESY-SIBERIA.org ( ) , events or charity administration. To fund all of these activities, we also ask all members to make a voluntary Subscriber donation of US$40 per year or more ?at: www.kresy-siberia.org/museum/donate ( ).
Obawiam si?, ?e niektórzy z naszych nowszych – i nie tak nowych – cz?onków ostatnio przekraczaj? podstawowe wytyczne Grupy Kresy-Syberia. Dla ka?dego wygody przytaczam je ni?ej:
Kresy-Syberia jet po?wi?cona do badania, upami?tnienia i uznania obywateli Polski, walcz?cych o ?ycie i wolno?? w okresie II wojny ?wiatowej, w Kresach wschodnich i na uchod?stwie.
Cz?onkostwo grupy dyskusyjnej jest jedynie przez zatwierdzenie, dla wszystkich osób, którzy przedstawiaj? si?, wyja?niaj? swoje zainteresowanie, poufnie zarejestruj? swoje dane kontaktowe i szanuj? zasady grupy. Dyskusje s? moderowane i wiadomo?ci s? prywatne dla uczestników.
*Podstawowe zasady grupy zawieraj? ograniczenie dyskusji do tematu i poszanowanie warto?ci grupy.*
Jeste?my przyjazn? i wzajemnie wspieraj?c? grup? ludzi, którzy d??? uczy? si? razem a nie ?ko?em debat gdzie zaliczamy punkty. Unikamy lekcewa?enia lub obra?ania innych cz?onków grupy.
*Unikamy komentowanie bie??cej polityki, aby nie spowodowa? niezgod? w grupie.*
*Uwagi szkodliwe o charakterze religijnym lub rasowym nie s? tolerowane.*
Moderatorzy zastrzegaj? sobie prawo do ostrzegania, zawieszenia lub usuni?cia ka?dego, kto nie przestrzega tych zasad.
Prosimy równie? o wsparcie, podzieleniem si? informacj? i zdj?ciami, nagrywaniem wywiadów z weteranami i Sybirakami, lub zg?oszeniem si? jako wolontariusz nad Wirtualne Muzeum www.KRESY-SYBERIA.org ( ) , imprezach lub administracji charytatywnej. Na finansowanie kosztów wszystkich tych dzia?ań, prosimy wszystkich cz?onków, aby dobrowolnie podarowali co najmniej na poziomie abonenta USD40 rocznie b?d? wi?cej, poprzez stron?:
www.kresy-siberia.org/museum/pl/donate ( )
Best regards,
Pozdrawiam,
______________________________________________________________________________
Stefan Wi?niowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
Prezes Fundacji Kresy-Syberia
Virtual Museum/Wirtualne Muzeum: www.Kresy-Siberia.org ( )
Discussion group/Grupa dyskusyjna: www.facebook.com/groups/KresySiberiaGroup/ ( ) <
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Sorry. I really don’t feel anything to compel me to read MacDonald’s books. I went back and read even more reviews and they all point to the same direction. I rely on the reviews of books just I like I rely on the reviews of a hotel or restaurant. Not interested. Chaim ?
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From: Kresy-Siberia@... [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:36 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749? ? That is the problem that you did not read MacDonalds book, but only reviews. It is not a base to draw any conclusions, especially to accuse the author to be anti-Jewish. I have read his books and did not find any ani-Jewish views.? As a matter of fact he presents only what the Jews do, historical facts and published articles and documents. He also presents very positive views about Jews. Please, prove your point, quote something from the book, give the page number, so everybody can check it. Otherwise it is just as others here said before, blanket baseless accusation. On the other hand, it may be that for you extremely ani-Jewish thing is to have different point of view on some subjects than Jews. If that is the case, please do not try to silence anybody here.? I do not care about what views the author has. I have my own views, which I have built for years. What I care about is if this author is truthful, and his book is based on facts, and those facts are well documented. I only mention that kind of books in my posts. Jan Tomasz Gross books had also very good reviews, but in opinion of other historians his books are distorted and baseless in many parts. We share common history for more than a 1000 years, it was very complex, enter-twined, tangled during second world war, we have victims, killers, tormentors, heroes, traitors, soldiers on both sides, Jewish and Polish.? A lot of polish soldiers from PSZ were tormented by Jews under communist regime after they came back to Poland in 1945-1947. Some ended in prison. That subject also belongs to this group. It is not an accusation, there is no place for accusation here. We just need to ?know the facts. As prof. Ewa Kruk quoted: "the most painful of atrocities are those done by members of my nation." She was thinking about Poles. You say: " I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2." That is exactly what I am doing here. You can not understand that history without understanding the Jews, their beliefs, religion, ways of life, tradition. I know a lot about them, worked with them many years. Have pretty close relations with some. Yet, Ewa Kruk describes things I never heard of. Mesmerizing. Chaim, please relax, read the books, not the reviews. We both know that Jews love the books. Probably you know also, that you can just buy anything, even review the way you want it. ? ? On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Chaim Meiersdorf chaim01@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? I looked at MacDonald’s website and at some of the reviews of his books on Amazon. My father was a Polish Jew who went through world war 2. I thought that the kresy-siberia group would deal with the history of what happened to the Polish people, ALL Polish people during WW2. Bringing in MacDonald and his extreme anti-Jewish views does not do a service to this group. Please stay away from this type of literature since it does not do anyone any good. Thank you Chaim Meiersdorf ? ? ? Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland. For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want. As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation. - says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%). Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.? Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions. ? On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:12 PM, Stefan Wisniowski stefan.wisniowski@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote: ? Good answer to Witek's questions. It was powerful "nationalism" that was behind the attacks on Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and Russians in WW2. Comparing it to "fascism" is a non-sequitur, one need not be a fascist or a socialist to be a nationalist - and vice-versa.? As for Kresy-Siberia, we are not concerned about the "political costs" of doing the right thing. However, there is no benefit in aligning ourselves with one political party or another. In fact, in the USA such alignment is strictly forbidden for charities,and rightly so. As long as a ?government supports our mission and does so ethically, as a foundation we have no business "resisting" them, no matter what our personal opinions. If they are against our mission, we must resist them,?no matter what our personal opinions. ? Witold,
In answer to the question about which was worse, I can simple recount dad's comment which is that "The Russians were terrible but the Germans were far worse."
He goes on to explain that while there was massive incompetence in their administration resulting in tremendous hardships it was still possible to live though in a marginal and deprived sort of way.
They did do things like setting up schools and made attempts to modernize farming like providing tractors but the end result of what they did was as comical as the result was tragic.
He also comments that the Russians were governed by paranoia which lead them to attempt to control everything which is what drove the deportations and selective killings.? Under normal circumstances this is a horrible thing.?? But when held up against the NAZI regime and the systematic murder they and their Ukrainian allies engaged in, for those not deported at least - the Russians seemed like the lesser of two evils.
Re: Patriotism vs. Fascism (or Communism for that matter)
I can only quote George Orwell's essay Notes on Nationalism.
"By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
Stefan,
It is the usurpation of history for political purposes that I am objecting to.? It is not possible for any political party or politician to dictate what history is.? ANY and ALL such moves like the actions described of PIS need to be resisted.?? I read into your comments that you are concerned that there may be a political cost to opposing them.? This is exactly the problem I am warning about.
? ?
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Bernie,
Bernie,
Regarding your remarks of May 28:
Communism vs. Nazism, which one was worse? I don’t know what kind of experiences your father had under these two systems. So, with all due respect to him, let me just point out that both set out, in a coordinated effort, to annihilate Polish elites and use the leaderless population for their own purposes. Soviet murderous policies had nothing to do with paranoia or incompetence. Stalin’s plans were worked out in detail and carried out with premeditation and ruthlessness. Hitler’s and Stalin’s murderous policies are best illustrated by the number of people they murdered deliberately: Hitler, between 17 and 18 million; Stalin between 20 and 25 million; on the global scale, communists deliberately killed about upwards of 60 million people. You can’t choose between these two; both were equally murderous, and both were equally evil.
On nationalism: Humans always sought to belong to groups: family, clan, a tribe, or, in the modern times, nation. There are no examples that I know of of people living individually, unrelated in any way to others. When we study the past, we study groups of people with any number of characteristics held in common: language, religion, culture, race, and the like. Modernization brought with it education and self awareness of peoples, who then combined into national groups based on a distinctive combination of language, religion, culture, and, with the advent of education, awareness of shared history. From the developmental perspective, nationalism was a precondition for a joint, large scale (meaning greater that clan or tribe) modernization and economic development. Nationalism was the glue, a prerequisite, for the people to trust one another with this effort. There are nations based on common ethnicity, and those which are united by common set of values, common ideology. Poland, France, Italy, Germany and many others are ethnic nations. United States, Australia, Canada are civic nations. Another way to put it, the ethnic nations are non-associational in nature, i.e., one is born into them; associational nations are nations, societies, which one can join. Israel, on the other hand, is a religious-cultural nation. So are several other nations in the Middle East. Whichever the case, nationalism and national identity are cultivated and are viewed as positive qualities. Communism proclaimed that it was based on internationalism, on solidarity of workers everywhere. The fact was that it was based on nationalism in the Soviet Union, in China, in Vietnam, in Cuba, and in Yugoslavia. In countries where communism had been imposed by force, as in Poland and other countries in the region, the local ruling party, in its own interest of staying in power, attempted to persuade its subject population of its socialist and internationalist goals. Communist parties in the satellite countries were, in effect, the comprador parties serving foreign rulers and their own privileged status. Loyalty to their oppressed nations was of least concern to them.? But nationalism is also a double-edged sword. If used as means of internal cohesion, as a force for joint effort to develop the country, then it produces positive results. If, on the other hand, it is interpreted in terms of superiority-inferiority in comparison with other nations, then its attention is turned outward and may become aggressive.?
Evaluating communism and Nazism is an easy task. Both were equally evil. The issue of nationalism is much more complex. Obviously, I could only outline for you some of these complexities.?
Witold
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A few obvious questions about history and its facts: ? 1.Is love of one’s country, Poland in this case, patriotism or fascism?? 2. Were those who were members of the AK and fought against the Nazis and the communists heroes or bandits? 3. Were communists and Nazis equally evil, or was one less so than the other? 4. Which of these historical facts should students in Polish schools be taught?
Witold
Bernie
Thanks for your thoughtful and perceptive post. Personally, I agree in principle, but observe that in the real world, history is always interpretation and politicians always find it useful to tell their stories their own way. The combination of money, power and motivation means governments will always influence how history is presented.?
For our group this presents a fine line. ? Discussing remembrance and recognition is in our mission! ?But we need to stick to facts and steer clear of political opinions.?
KRESY-SIBERIA?can support or object to policies and actions that affect its mission but we?support no political party.?
We can discuss actions of politicians and others but must steer clear of party politics like blanket praise or condemnation.?
A fine line, but does it make sense to you? Thanks Stefan WisniowskiCurrently at Stanford? ?I have been watching this discussion with more than a little interest.
To a certain extent politics is always going to intrude on matters of Poland and the Kresy because we are all here bound together by political events of the past.? Anything that potentially impacts the remembrance of our history is of potential concern and I think it should be discussed.
As an American who is also watching the political circus with Trump and Clinton unfold this situation gives me great concern.
Let us remember it was Hermann Goering who said, "History is written by the victors".
As a result I am vehemently opposed to any political control or influence on the recording, preservation or interpretation of history by those with political motives.? This needs to be left to academics and then needs to be vigorously debated.
Once any particular political movement is put in control of the emphasis of a particular view of past events we can never again be sure of our collective memories of them.
We should discuss this here because we are in the business of the preservation of those memories and anything that impacts that should be a great concern.
I find the charges that the past government somehow suppressed one view or the other of history highly suspect, just as I find the idea of PIS (a particular political party with highly nationalist policies) of even higher suspect.
Leave history to the historians!
This should be the position of KS.
Bernie
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Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] Digest Number 6749
Hi from an avid reader and follower.
A delightful message if I may say...and so very logical... including keeping the seat clean! Well done Madam!
My in laws come from areas close to the death camps hearing all the points with some receptiveness and also hate, for example and whilst it is all very sad as to what happened and a very historical fact and very well documented, some areas of what happened are not too well documented and this makes it worthwhile discussing for clarity, the rights and wrongs we are not to judge I believe, but only to gain benefit, knowledge and understanding from the facts... Thanks Adam
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On 29 May 2016, at 22:33, Eve-Marie Galka eve.marie123@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Now, now Pan Jan let's not go off the deep end here!
Mr Gross got his medal for efforts in opposing the Communist regime and no matter what he should keep it, he earned it fair and square.
And likewise I read his book about Jedwabne and what happened there is a historical fact although historians can
quibble about the exact details and numbers but really one murder is just as bad as a thousand.
Unfortunately, like many of us here, Mr Gross has reached an age when he finds himself becoming increasingly irrelevant to the world and becomes a "silly old fart" who starts emitting more gas than wisdom and that seems to be true about Mr Gross at this stage in his life:- the fact is that although Poles did assist in killing Jews so did Jews themselves and no more Poles killed Jews than did Jews (this should get a few replies!).
Anyway it's not necessary to prosecute the poor fellow for "insulting the Polish nation" and it does tend to make Poland look like a pathetic tin-pot dictatorship to the rest of the world:- it would be enough for the Senate to review the matter and take statements from everyone who wishes to hold forth on the matter and then if necessary to vote a motion of censure against Mr Gross and let it go at that.
Emitting more gas than wisdom seems to be primarily a habit of old men, we ladies always sit down when we pee which also lets the gas out before it starts to hurt us and affect our thinking (and it keeps the toilet seat clean!) so we manage to avoid saying too many stupid things:- cheers my darling, and keep smiling, it will help you live longer!
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The History Do we have another choice but to live the history to the historians?? Of course we do not. Who is able to sift through tons of documents, scores of books and devote years of work to one subject? None of us, for sure. Very few of us know more than one or two historical books on one subject, let alone know what is going on in the realm of historian publication in a country or the world. And this particular subject is also a field of historical study and debate, also in connection to politics. A have read two of them lately: "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary ?Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements (1998) by Prof. Kevin MacDonald ?. The other are his essays from The Occidental Quarterly (2003-2004) gathered in a book "Fenomen ?ydowski? Ze studiów nad etniczn? aktywno?ci?." Both published in Poland.
For the Jews, not knowing how the world works is unthinkable. Before I have discovered that attitude in conversations with them in 1986 I did not know much about how the world works. I have discovered that lately, after reading above mentioned and scores of other books. Jews not only know how the world works, they make it work the way they want.
As we have left the history to the historians, the next question is to which ones? Should it be Jan Tomasz Gross, described by Stanislaw Michalkiewicz - - as "macabre fabulist". We know that he lies in his publications and as a source of those lies he quotes his own earlier statements. His statement in german newspaper Die Welt: "The Poles during the war killed more Jews than Germans" is now a subject of official polish investigation (1DS. 246/15 Prok. Rej. Katowice-Pó?noc) for the crime of insulting polish nation.
- says: Jan Tomasz Gross (born 1947) is a Poland-born American historian and sociologist, which is also a lie. He is not a historian, he is a sociologist. This guy received Bachelor Cross of Merit from polish president Aleksander Kwa?niewski (SLD) in 1996. We will see if they dare to strip this honor from him
I gave you source, as I see here suspicion towards right wing. It is owned by the Kraków-based Grupa Onet.pl S.A. It was founded in 1996 by Optimus company. According to Alexa rankings, as of December 2007, it is the 45th most popular website worldwide and the 3rd most popular site in Poland. Ringier Axel Springer Media AG holds the majority of Onet since 2012 (75%).
Why do Gross and others do that? It is a clear picture of historians performing political tasks for profits. Many polish historians, politicians, artists and celebrities take part in this also. Gross after his scandalic words in Germany took part in Warsaw Conference and repeated his stance. ? Poland in the world public opinion has to be degraded, ashamed, be guilty. It would be easier to trengthen?the compensation claims for jewish lost properties in Poland.?
Can we do anything about it? Bernie suggest opposition. I my opinion we can condemn such publications, but it is not our task. We have just to pickup the right books, and that requires some knowledge about honest historical craft. Read critical books, reviews. One of the best in my opinion is prof. Ewa Kruk, and her "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945" is fantastic, though truthful about polish actions.
Jan
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chaim meiersdorf