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Re: Jazz Guitar Tree?
?
It's inaccurate
Charlie Christian
Barney Kessel
Raney, Farlow and Chuck Wayne are above Wes Montgomery
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Wes Montgomery and Jim Hall were friends and contemporaries just like Raney & Farlow
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the question of contemporary influence is another matter
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This is just the timeline. Raney already had records by 48 and 49 and famous ones with Getz in 1951
On the question of influence Wes has acknowledged Raney & Farlow as influences but he really copied Christian.
This is gone into some detail in various places
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So maybe parallel influence with acknow
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?
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Charlie Christian / \ |
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Re: RIP: Arnie Berle, Guitarist, Multi-Instrumentalist, Writer and Educator
#RIP
A classic...
R.I.P. Arnie Berle |
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Re: RIP: Arnie Berle, Guitarist, Multi-Instrumentalist, Writer and Educator
#RIP
RIP,
Thank you for your contributions to jazz and jazz guitar. |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Kenn Gordon
?
I was not demonizing just observing I could never demonize any Jazz Player and yes early Midi were very heavy I remember the "organ guitar" which was basically the soundboard of an old organ mixed with some FX. They though did not have midi output as it was pre midi as you said That was until someone actually made it midi. The early Rolands with their massive footboards and thick heavy cables. True my original statement used a huge paint brush of generalisation. But I do still think the majority of Jazz guitarists stay with that fat bluesy sound rather than exploring the vast universe that is midi.?
Midi has even left your general Rock musician sitting on the floor sucking their thumbs and playing with a massive pedal array. Sound modules are no longer twinky bontempi sounding units. The instrument samples are first class. I think another reson that guitarists shy away from Midi is because MOST though not all systems suffered from Lag and that includes the Market leaders Roland who have still stuck with their Hex Pickups. The lack of "Feel" in these systems also caused them to be a no no for lead guitarists in all genre.?
?
?
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Pat Metheny was using his midi guitar setup for a few tunes on his recent tour.
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Peter- Great respomse! Thanks. Mark
On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 01:00:28 PM EST, Greg Shilakis via groups.io <gregs2868@...> wrote:
Very well stated, Juan. Greg On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:29 AM, jvegatrio via groups.io <JVegaTrio@...> wrote:
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
I think you sent your email to the wrong address(?).
On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 04:12:27 PM EST, <kenn@...> wrote:
found a few pics BTW I am actually retired from making guitars so what I still have for sale is all there I really made guitars for me so if they were a bit off the wall that was the reason I loved beautiful woods Flames/quilts and flash grains with the exception of the BBK all my guitars were finished to show off the woods in their creation. I was anal about them to me they had to look like art as well as create art when played. Is that a sin to be so pious?? and to cop it all mostly I played Country and Irish Music |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Kenn Gordon
Yes sir I do and most of my creations tend to be one offs This Jazz box was 18 months in design and build and made to an ultra high spec (as are all of my guitars) although most are just relatively normal guitars 335esque I do copy the same guitar system into a homage guitar to the late great BBK? the only other guitar that I loaded a similar system into was a solid state 335 sized SG which also has actives as does a 12 string version that I made My guitars tend to all have Coil Tap/Phase/series parallel switching thus allowing a greater tonal range I should point out that in the big ONE OFF Midi Jazz Box has ?2.3k worth of hardware loaded into it which cost me a further ?650 to have Mark Seddon of Oxbow Guitars work the bugs out of (he is an electronic genius) without all the bells and whistles the guitar is still a fantastic big jazz box?
On Friday, 9 December 2022 at 19:57:14 GMT, Arnold Smith via groups.io <brotherterry2000@...> wrote:
Hi Ken, What a beautiful guitar! Do you sell your creations? Thanks, Arnold? |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
I think you sent this to the wrong address(?).
On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 02:57:03 PM EST, Arnold Smith via groups.io <brotherterry2000@...> wrote:
Hi Ken, What a beautiful guitar! Do you sell your creations? Thanks, Arnold? |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
开云体育jvegatrio wrote:
While we're itemizing, I'll add that Pat Martino played a custom-built Koontz guitar with onboard synthesizer on the "Starbright" album. This was before the existence of MIDI. I read an interview with him around that time in which he said that he did not continue to play the instrument because of its substantial weight. Jay |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
I own several Carvin 3-voice instruments. The Model is SH-575. A bit like a hollowbody Les Paul with special electronics.And I have used them in a "jazz" setting.
Never used them for lighting or pyro though. ?
Scott Dercks ---------- Original Message ---------- From: kenn@... To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Jazz-Guitar] Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 08:47:07 -0800 As a NON Jazz musician I bow to your greater knowledge on the topic when I was talking about the evolvement of the Guitar I refer to the actual instrument rather than just the Guitarist. I moved on the outside circle of Jazz guitars merely making the instruments and is some cases Making them to order in a specific style as in the one being played by Simon Jones? in an acoustic jam set duo with 80's pop legend Jane Kennaway? with so many variations of midi guitar around I just wondered why Jazz failed to pick up on it as a Lead tool? or even use it to control Lights etc etc (says the man who last used it to trigger lights and pyro's on stage and to layers instruments into the guitar sound)? I be a heathen called to the dark side ;) |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Kenn,
Holdsworth played a SynthAxe (sp?) and Pat Metheny also used MIDI for quite a while. I've tried using it and the tracking was a pain so...?
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
-----Original Message-----
From: kenn@... To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 8:47 am Subject: Re: [Jazz-Guitar] Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz As a NON Jazz musician I bow to your greater knowledge on the topic when I was talking about the evolvement of the Guitar I refer to the actual instrument rather than just the Guitarist. I moved on the outside circle of Jazz guitars merely making the instruments and is some cases Making them to order in a specific style as in the one being played by Simon Jones? in an acoustic jam set duo with 80's pop legend Jane Kennaway?
with so many variations of midi guitar around I just wondered why Jazz failed to pick up on it as a Lead tool? or even use it to control Lights etc etc (says the man who last used it to trigger lights and pyro's on stage and to layers instruments into the guitar sound)? I be a heathen called to the dark side ;) |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
As a NON Jazz musician I bow to your greater knowledge on the topic when I was talking about the evolvement of the Guitar I refer to the actual instrument rather than just the Guitarist. I moved on the outside circle of Jazz guitars merely making the instruments and is some cases Making them to order in a specific style as in the one being played by Simon Jones? in an acoustic jam set duo with 80's pop legend Jane Kennaway?
with so many variations of midi guitar around I just wondered why Jazz failed to pick up on it as a Lead tool? or even use it to control Lights etc etc (says the man who last used it to trigger lights and pyro's on stage and to layers instruments into the guitar sound)? I be a heathen called to the dark side ;) |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Kenn,
Quick reply: among the things that make "jazz" "jazz" (and I'm painting with a really wide brush) are European instruments and song forms coupled with African polyrhythms and improvisation. I also strongly believe true "jazz" has its roots in the blues, but that's a discussion for another day...?
I respectfully disagree; jazz guitar has evolved and grown over time. Guitar-wise, Pat Martino, eg, is very "evolved" from someone like Eddie Lang or Charlie Christian and McLaughlin or Holdsworth are quite evolved from early jazz guitar pioneers. Labels are a convenient and easy way to try to categorize or provide a framework for organizing things in music, much like when you go to the supermarket, where the aisles are stocked in a certain way. They also make it easier to make music more "generic" for marketing purposes. The same way you wouldn't go into a Japanese restaurant expecting to find pizza, you might pick up a "jazz" record and not expect to hear punk or mariachi.
I think if you take a step back you might find jazz guitar has evolved, and at a pretty respectable pace, but as I said before, the instrument has its limitations. Think about it: with perhaps the exception of keyboards and the advent of the synthesizer, pretty much all other instruments played in jazz music are still the same, no? What "evolves" is the music; the instruments are just a way to express it, imo.
Oh, and I can't stand mariachi music, or barbershop q'tet, for that matter. ;)
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
-----Original Message-----
From: kenn@... To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 4:12 am Subject: Re: [Jazz-Guitar] Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz When I earned to play Guitar, I was 13 years old and living a remote part of the Highlands Of Scotland. My mother played Piano and I tunes the guitar to an open chord and then just worked out chord sounds by listening to folks like The Beatles on the Radio. (we did not have the luxury of a TV.?
What you said about the popularist side of Guitar was very true in my youth (back in the 1960's) whilst I made Jazz boxes for others I was never really good enough to be able to play Jazz. But this has got me to thinking of what is it that makes Jazz, Jazz? who is it that says it has to be played this way or that way? I played folk music but I played it in a bit of a rock style so that got pigeon holes as Folk Is there such a genre as Jazz Folk or Jazz Country and I not why not? Why do we have to play within set boundaries set by people who died 100 years before our birth? When Elvis Presley started out he would tour with the "Louisiana Hayride" which was labelled at the time American Folk and then later it was called Country Music. Now country music in Scotland is nothing like what you would imagine Country Music to be it is closer to folk than country almost a regression. Does garth Brooks play Country music and if so what makes it so. as far as I am concerned Garth brooks is on the side of Light Rock or Pop music.? At the end of the day we all play Music. Each country has its on sub genres of that title. Surely music is what feels sympathetic to our individual hearing. A guitar is a Genre of instrument which all date back to the 15th Century when the vihuela, and before that there would have been instruments like the Dulcimer and the Lyre. A simple stringed instrument with a soundbox. It evolved into the basic modern day shape which is still evolving. There still remains some argument between who made the first electric guitar some say George Beauchamp and Adolf Rickenbacker who came up with the "Frying Pan Electric Guitar" Strangely this was adopted by Jazz Guitarists and really was nothing more than an early Lap Steel, more commonly used by Country Guitarists these days. What this tells me is that at the start of the Jazz era early guitarists were happier to try new technology than they are today. Jazz musicians were experimenters not just with sound but with instruments and scales. What was Jazz in the 1930's would probably be referred to as Blues or swing by NON jazz players these days. I would never call myself a great guitarist. I would however lay claim to knowing the mechanics of a guitar and how to generate differing tones by choice of wood. ie the Denser the wood the brighter the tone the deeper the body on an acoustic guitar the deeper the tone. brightness comes from the neck and the upper bout depth comes from the table and the lower bout. Take a listen to a Mariachi band? where the tones are separated from tenor to bass. Is there any reason for the F holes in an electric guitar? thats a whole other argument.? So in conclusion to this reply I have still the question WHAT makes Jazz, Jazz and why will Jazz Musicians not evolve as the other Genre's have? |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
When I earned to play Guitar, I was 13 years old and living a remote part of the Highlands Of Scotland. My mother played Piano and I tunes the guitar to an open chord and then just worked out chord sounds by listening to folks like The Beatles on the Radio. (we did not have the luxury of a TV.?
What you said about the popularist side of Guitar was very true in my youth (back in the 1960's) whilst I made Jazz boxes for others I was never really good enough to be able to play Jazz. But this has got me to thinking of what is it that makes Jazz, Jazz? who is it that says it has to be played this way or that way? I played folk music but I played it in a bit of a rock style so that got pigeon holes as Folk Is there such a genre as Jazz Folk or Jazz Country and I not why not? Why do we have to play within set boundaries set by people who died 100 years before our birth? When Elvis Presley started out he would tour with the "Louisiana Hayride" which was labelled at the time American Folk and then later it was called Country Music. Now country music in Scotland is nothing like what you would imagine Country Music to be it is closer to folk than country almost a regression. Does garth Brooks play Country music and if so what makes it so. as far as I am concerned Garth brooks is on the side of Light Rock or Pop music.? At the end of the day we all play Music. Each country has its on sub genres of that title. Surely music is what feels sympathetic to our individual hearing. A guitar is a Genre of instrument which all date back to the 15th Century when the vihuela, and before that there would have been instruments like the Dulcimer and the Lyre. A simple stringed instrument with a soundbox. It evolved into the basic modern day shape which is still evolving. There still remains some argument between who made the first electric guitar some say George Beauchamp and Adolf Rickenbacker who came up with the "Frying Pan Electric Guitar" Strangely this was adopted by Jazz Guitarists and really was nothing more than an early Lap Steel, more commonly used by Country Guitarists these days. What this tells me is that at the start of the Jazz era early guitarists were happier to try new technology than they are today. Jazz musicians were experimenters not just with sound but with instruments and scales. What was Jazz in the 1930's would probably be referred to as Blues or swing by NON jazz players these days. I would never call myself a great guitarist. I would however lay claim to knowing the mechanics of a guitar and how to generate differing tones by choice of wood. ie the Denser the wood the brighter the tone the deeper the body on an acoustic guitar the deeper the tone. brightness comes from the neck and the upper bout depth comes from the table and the lower bout. Take a listen to a Mariachi band? where the tones are separated from tenor to bass. Is there any reason for the F holes in an electric guitar? thats a whole other argument.? So in conclusion to this reply I have still the question WHAT makes Jazz, Jazz and why will Jazz Musicians not evolve as the other Genre's have? |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:29 AM, jvegatrio via groups.io <JVegaTrio@...> wrote:
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
Kenn,
That's a mouthful, for sure and for the most part I agree, but it's not just guitar players: Ornette caught a bunch of s**t for playing a plastic sax, and "everybody" had a cow when Miles put a Fender Rhodes in the band, never mind the wah-wah trumpet. I think humans tend to get "comfortable" until somebody (like Django or Jimi) comes along and breaks the mold, that's just the "cycle".?
I'd say jazz guitar has stayed static more b/c of the instrument than the players; people like EVH, Mahavishnu, Stanley Jordan, and Holdsworth are "exceptions" and what they create is very beautiful but it's a long and arduous road to get there. Most of us are content to attain a certain level of competence, technique, or ability to express, and stay right there.
The other thing is that the guitar's history is much different from that of other instruments: it was a "populist" instrument played primarily by women and drunks. It wasn't until Segovia brought it into the concert hall that it began to gain some respect. Even these days, guitar is the "Rodney Dangerfield" of instruments in that it doesn't get much "respect". The assumption is that "anybody can play it", and that's not entirely untrue, at least on a very basic level. That's also partly why stuff like tabs is so popular, and most guitar players would rather buy books/CDs/DVDs/secret decoder rings/etc, instead of taking lessons...?
Nice post if a bit difficult to read.
Cheers,
JV
Juan Vega
-----Original Message-----
From: kenn@... To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, Dec 11, 2022 1:57 am Subject: Re: [Jazz-Guitar] Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz You have hit the nail on the head when the likes of Django Reinhardt started to play Electric Guitar they at that time were looked upon by the purists of the time as the spawn of the very devil himself We have seen the same across so many differing styles of music Take folk music for instance generally seen by other genres as singer standing with a finger in one ear creating their harmonies in their heads. I played in a folk band that broke the mould we had a 20,000watt PA System and used Electric Guitars and Keyboards. Country Music banned electric Guitars in the Opre until after the Death of the great Hank Williams. Garth brooks uses a 100yard stage and runs across it like a man possessed classed as country but more akin to ZZ Top. I have worked with some great but unknown visionaries. One upon a time I played guitar in a electric Guitar Scottish dance band that was primarily Fiddle and Accordion based However one of the accordion players used a basic midi system again that was frowned upon by the Scottish Buttons & Bows society,.as Midi was somehow cheating. I know from my own use of midi guitars it takes a bit more knowlege to use. Jazz Guitarists love to use Reverb on their guitars. yet would never dream of using a wah wah pedal or and Ibanez Screamer. so why is one added effect better than say another. I have seen jazz guitarists use the likes of a Chapman tapping stick or a 7 or 10 string guitar. most instruments and sounds have evolved over the years. What makes a Jazz sound????? sound like Jazz. Midi is the greatest underused tool in the musical tool box. One of the preferred amps of Jazz guitarist is the Roland and Roland Cube which now has a midi input allowing the change of many and varied amplifier types. When I changed from a Marshall I changed to? Line 6 Spider Valve a relatively cheap amp and having inbuilt Multi FX. My peers told me I should use a bigger name and better brand. and they ran off lists of brands from Peavey to Roland and from Yamaha to Carvin some even mentioned that I should get a Bogner. at least until I pointed to the badge on the front of my 2x12 Combo. I owned a Bogner spider Valve by Line 6. the front end of the amp (the input stages with the FX built in) was designed and made by Line 6, the output stage was a pure Valve amp and cab designed for line 6 by Mr's Bognor and co. and when played Next to a "Real Bogner" in a clean (No FX) setting Not only did they sound the same but the Line 6 actually had more headroom by a country mile. The point being is we first need to be convinced before we change. and that also refers to the Brand Name of the Guitars we buy and use. This is one of the places where Jazz Guitarist tend to stand head and shoulders above the other Genres. If you play Rock then you probably play a Gibson/Fender/Ibanez guitar.
If you play Country then you probably play a Gretsch/Martin/Fender Guitar. Folk you will play a Martin or a similar guitar. Now I know from the number of people who have bought my guitars (at least the "Ordinary Guitar using standard Pickups) that the Jazz fraternity are quite happy to buy outside the box. A Jazz guitarist wants a Guitar to be the best tool in his tool box and not the mass produced in some Chinese factory and hand made guitar will always have that individual quality. to name a couple of Jazz Guitarists who own some of my guitars "Freddie Piriotta, Frederick Wisdom."? So fundamentally it is all about changing the stick in the mud mindsets?? |
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Re: Midi Guitar specifically for Jazz
#MIDI
You have hit the nail on the head when the likes of Django Reinhardt started to play Electric Guitar they at that time were looked upon by the purists of the time as the spawn of the very devil himself We have seen the same across so many differing styles of music Take folk music for instance generally seen by other genres as singer standing with a finger in one ear creating their harmonies in their heads. I played in a folk band that broke the mould we had a 20,000watt PA System and used Electric Guitars and Keyboards. Country Music banned electric Guitars in the Opre until after the Death of the great Hank Williams. Garth brooks uses a 100yard stage and runs across it like a man possessed classed as country but more akin to ZZ Top. I have worked with some great but unknown visionaries. One upon a time I played guitar in a electric Guitar Scottish dance band that was primarily Fiddle and Accordion based However one of the accordion players used a basic midi system again that was frowned upon by the Scottish Buttons & Bows society,.as Midi was somehow cheating. I know from my own use of midi guitars it takes a bit more knowlege to use. Jazz Guitarists love to use Reverb on their guitars. yet would never dream of using a wah wah pedal or and Ibanez Screamer. so why is one added effect better than say another. I have seen jazz guitarists use the likes of a Chapman tapping stick or a 7 or 10 string guitar. most instruments and sounds have evolved over the years. What makes a Jazz sound????? sound like Jazz. Midi is the greatest underused tool in the musical tool box. One of the preferred amps of Jazz guitarist is the Roland and Roland Cube which now has a midi input allowing the change of many and varied amplifier types. When I changed from a Marshall I changed to? Line 6 Spider Valve a relatively cheap amp and having inbuilt Multi FX. My peers told me I should use a bigger name and better brand. and they ran off lists of brands from Peavey to Roland and from Yamaha to Carvin some even mentioned that I should get a Bogner. at least until I pointed to the badge on the front of my 2x12 Combo. I owned a Bogner spider Valve by Line 6. the front end of the amp (the input stages with the FX built in) was designed and made by Line 6, the output stage was a pure Valve amp and cab designed for line 6 by Mr's Bognor and co. and when played Next to a "Real Bogner" in a clean (No FX) setting Not only did they sound the same but the Line 6 actually had more headroom by a country mile. The point being is we first need to be convinced before we change. and that also refers to the Brand Name of the Guitars we buy and use. This is one of the places where Jazz Guitarist tend to stand head and shoulders above the other Genres. If you play Rock then you probably play a Gibson/Fender/Ibanez guitar.
If you play Country then you probably play a Gretsch/Martin/Fender Guitar. Folk you will play a Martin or a similar guitar. Now I know from the number of people who have bought my guitars (at least the "Ordinary Guitar using standard Pickups) that the Jazz fraternity are quite happy to buy outside the box. A Jazz guitarist wants a Guitar to be the best tool in his tool box and not the mass produced in some Chinese factory and hand made guitar will always have that individual quality. to name a couple of Jazz Guitarists who own some of my guitars "Freddie Piriotta, Frederick Wisdom."? So fundamentally it is all about changing the stick in the mud mindsets?? |
Scott Dercks
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