Re: All National Forest Closures Calif as of today
#Conditions
The Sierra National Forest webpage has an FAQ about the closure. It contains this Q&A:
?
“What if I am exiting a backpacking trip?
The Sierra National Forest understands that people have trips planned and vehicles staged. This is not an emergency evacuation, but a closure. People should make
an expedient, orderly, and safe completion of their hikes. However, people who are planning hikes and backpacking trip and will enter a closed area should change those plans. Any wilderness permit that originates on the Sierra NF has been cancelled and refunded
through September 17th.”
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While it is too late for me (I – mistakenly, it seems – aborted my SOBO JMT hike at Red’s Meadow on September 1), the phrase, “completion of their hikes,” means to me, completion of that
hike for which you have (a still valid) permit. ?I think the reference to cancelled permits originating in Sierra NF is to permits to START a hike during the closure. ??
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I think the Forest Service should make it easy for people who left the trail because of the order to get a permit to continue in 2022 where they left off in 2021, and I plan to urge they
do that.
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We just finished our thru hike on Monday and during the last week (after the 8/30 closure), we ran in to a number of rangers, both NPS and FS. We were told the same thing by both types (note that trails in SEKI and YNP are open and you
are permitted to start a? hike from TH within those parks).? As far as the Inyo, a number of Inyo rangers told us the same thing, if you were on the trail prior to August 30, you could proceed to your stated exit point (in our case WP) provided you didn’t
leave the trail for any reason.? Whether this is the official policy or just rangers not wanting to ruin a thru hike remains to be seen.? Last year was a different situation as there was a direct threat to the trail and hikers on it because of the creek fire.?
We were one of many hikers? who were told to exit by the closest trail because of the threat posed by the Creek Fire. This year the closure of the Inyo is more preventive in nature and appears to be related to man power issues.? We met a number of people who
had been permitted to start at Cottonwood on the 8/29 and were told the same thing by Inyo rangers. ???
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From: Tom Kennefick via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 12:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [JMT-groups.io] All National Forest Closures Calif as of today #Conditions
?
I was on trail last year. The Rangers were patrolling and it was very clear that we were to leave via the nearest trail
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On Aug 31, 2021, at 8:19 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 05:32 PM, Lange Jorstad wrote:
Okay, it's official, Regional Order No. 21-07 is now posted here:??
The order is very clear that it prohibits not only starting a new hike but also prohibits being on any Forest Service trail (even with a prior, legal entry)
Last year I know some hikers who thought they were getting "advice" to exit the trail and decided to complete. This year, it is possible that they could get ticketed on exit, particularly at Whitney Portal or Horseshoe Meadow (both exits are on Forest Service
land, not National Park land). In any case if we are a law-abiding community I think we should abide by the rule. It is being issued for VERY good reasons and if we believe that other people should follow rules protecting the wilderness, we can't cut ourselves
special exceptions because our trip is so epic.
?
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Re: All National Forest Closures Calif as of today
#Conditions
We just finished our thru hike on Monday and during the last week (after the 8/30 closure), we ran in to a number of rangers, both NPS and FS. We were told the same thing by both types (note that trails in SEKI and YNP are open and you
are permitted to start a? hike from TH within those parks).? As far as the Inyo, a number of Inyo rangers told us the same thing, if you were on the trail prior to August 30, you could proceed to your stated exit point (in our case WP) provided you didn’t
leave the trail for any reason.? Whether this is the official policy or just rangers not wanting to ruin a thru hike remains to be seen.? Last year was a different situation as there was a direct threat to the trail and hikers on it because of the creek fire.?
We were one of many hikers? who were told to exit by the closest trail because of the threat posed by the Creek Fire. This year the closure of the Inyo is more preventive in nature and appears to be related to man power issues.? We met a number of people who
had been permitted to start at Cottonwood on the 8/29 and were told the same thing by Inyo rangers. ???
?
Sent from for Windows
?
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Show quoted text
From: Tom Kennefick via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 12:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [JMT-groups.io] All National Forest Closures Calif as of today #Conditions
?
I was on trail last year. The Rangers were patrolling and it was very clear that we were to leave via the nearest trail
On Aug 31, 2021, at 8:19 AM, John Ladd <johnladd@...> wrote:
?On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 05:32 PM, Lange Jorstad wrote:
Okay, it's official, Regional Order No. 21-07 is now posted here:??
The order is very clear that it prohibits not only starting a new hike but also prohibits being on any Forest Service trail (even with a prior, legal entry)
Last year I know some hikers who thought they were getting "advice" to exit the trail and decided to complete. This year, it is possible that they could get ticketed on exit, particularly at Whitney Portal or Horseshoe Meadow (both exits are on Forest Service
land, not National Park land). In any case if we are a law-abiding community I think we should abide by the rule. It is being issued for VERY good reasons and if we believe that other people should follow rules protecting the wilderness, we can't cut ourselves
special exceptions because our trip is so epic.
?
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
"I crush them up so they’re not so bulky."
I do the same thing but only to a point. I want noodles not ramen rice. So they're still kind of bulky.
"Fortunately, I really like Ramen Noodles so it’s a cheap lightweight calorie source for me"
Agree 100%. Super cheap, even the fancy Korean ones. Add a package of tuna, some veggies, and (if it's a special occasion) a $2 wine.
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
Has anyone tried Vite Ramen noodles?? Curious what others think.? I order a 6-pack of just noodles, combined it with "Ramen Rescue" from Packit Gourmet, which is basically some added dried vegetables and red pepper flakes. I used a spicy flavor packet from Shin Ramyun "Gourmet Spicy" ramen, and even at half strength that stuff was hot!
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
I crush them up so they’re not so bulky. Fortunately, I really like Ramen Noodles so it’s a cheap lightweight calorie source for me
Carol
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
Andrew Skurka’s Thai peanut noodles is my go to ramen based dinner.?
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On Sep 6, 2021, at 9:48 AM, fredxz via groups.io <fredxz@...> wrote:
?"As an additional benefit, I found these to have about 50% more calories than the brands I found at the Japanese grocery stores."
They're just bigger. The calories per unit weight for ramen is pretty much the same across the board.
I like the Korean style ramen because of the quality of the noodles. The powdered flavor packets are garbage just like every other ramen but they are easily replaced with a little dashi or miso. Nongshim is one manufacturer that has a number of "flavors" available. They're a Korean company but the noodles sold here are manufactured in southern California.
I know it's super popular in Japan but ramen is kind of trashy junk food mostly. Fried white flour: not much there nutritionally except calories. But on the trail they can be heavenly. And they are so easy to cook. You can even eat them raw if your stove breaks. The big problem is that they're bulky and have to be left out or at least limited if you have a full bear canister. I've probably eaten well over 1000 packages.
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
"As an additional benefit, I found these to have about 50% more calories than the brands I found at the Japanese grocery stores."
They're just bigger. The calories per unit weight for ramen is pretty much the same across the board.
I like the Korean style ramen because of the quality of the noodles. The powdered flavor packets are garbage just like every other ramen but they are easily replaced with a little dashi or miso. Nongshim is one manufacturer that has a number of "flavors" available. They're a Korean company but the noodles sold here are manufactured in southern California.
I know it's super popular in Japan but ramen is kind of trashy junk food mostly. Fried white flour: not much there nutritionally except calories. But on the trail they can be heavenly. And they are so easy to cook. You can even eat them raw if your stove breaks. The big problem is that they're bulky and have to be left out or at least limited if you have a full bear canister. I've probably eaten well over 1000 packages.
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
I’m sorry, I don’t. I already repackaged. But, they shouldn’t be too hard to find. Thanks for your tip. I think the ones I found were 300 calories per pack, vs. the 190 on your link. ? Tim
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Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
Try the ramen by Packit Gourmet. ?You add your own noodles but they include everything else.
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On Sep 3, 2021, at 12:07 PM, Charles Fannin <cjzilla@...> wrote:
?Do you have a brand name or picture of a package?? I found these at Safeway, and they have vegetarian options.? Good calories/weight ratio, too.
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Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
The national Park Service typically fights fires with its own resources. Historically, they have been able to control files within the Parks with those resources.?
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
It's more than a little bit frustrating to read about the ambiguity that exists in the enforcement of the National Forest closure. While I understand the reasons for the closure, and I certainly don't begrudge those who have been allowed to finish their trips rather than exit immediately, Inyo NF should be going out of their way to clearly delineate what is permitted and what is not in terms that are not ambiguous.?
I also wonder about the National Parks and their decision to remain open. While I certainly am happy for those who are able to go on trips in the National Parks, are there separate firefighting capabilities that exist within the parks and not in the forests? If not, I am not sure that I understand the rationale for the parks being open while the forests are closed, if the main reason is lack of firefighting capabilities due to fires occurring elsewhere in the state.
To be clear, my own trip was affected and I would not violate any forest order, and would not encourage anyone else to, but I also think we deserve clarity and rational actions from the government, and an unambiguous level of communication regarding what is and is not permitted.?
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Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
I just finished an extended telephone conversation with a public information specialist at Inyo National Forest.
I requested, without success, a clearer statement of the rule and the Q&A as it applies to people who were already hiking on the JMT when the order was issued. They will apparently not be changing the Q&A anytime soon. They seem to be willing to leave the situation ambiguous with the "expedient, orderly and safe completion" language found the current Q&A. (Quoted more fully in my original post)
They clearly want people to exit safely. I.e., people shouldn't feel compelled to use the closest exit trail if is hazardous or there is no good way to get from the exit trailhead back to transportation. I.e., don't try to exit somewhere like Taboose or Sawmill if hiking a bit further north or south would lead to a safer exit.
The main message I got out of the conversation is that Inyo would also like people to come up with a reasonable hike exit plan that minimizes impact on Forest Service resources.
My take on this, trying to best understand a position that Inyo has left ambiguous, and applying it to some of the specific situations people may find themselves in:
1) The decision to continue South from Reds, where the next 52 miles are within the closed forest would have high impact on USFS resources and therefore would go against the goals of the closure order, even if it does not clearly violate the language of the Q&A. I would therefore not feel comfortable continuing south from Reds (or North from the Piute junction) even if a literal reading of the Q&A would seem to permit it/
2) By contrast, a decision to continue to hike south from Muir Trail Ranch, where one would reach still-open Park Service land within about 5 miles, is quite different. Taking the fastest way out southbound from MTR would be over Piute Pass (or Northbound over Duck). But those exits would actually involve more miles and time on USFS land than continuing on the open NPS land and have only a few miles on USFS land by exiting at Cottonwood Pass (about 5 miles, by memory).
3) Other decisions are closer calls (what to do if at Lake Edison) but one should keep in the mind exiting safely and trying to reduce the demands on the Forest Service.
I think what hikers need to do here is to exercise reasonable judgment respecting the USFS need to reserve their strained resources. There is probably no one right answer that applies to every hiker. Sound judgment is probably more important than a literal reading of either the Rule or of the Q&A statement.
Be safe out there. And responsible.
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
|
Re: Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
Do you have a brand name or picture of a package?? I found these at Safeway, and they have vegetarian options.? Good calories/weight ratio, too.
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Healthy Ramen noodles- a recommendation/tip
Hello All, ? You may not know, but most pre-packaged instant noodles/ramen have some unhealthy ingredients in them, including MSG, TBHQ, etc….. In addition, I’m also vegetarian, which limited the options even further. Recently, I went into an H Mart, which is a Korean grocery store, and found vegetarian kimchi flavored noodles. They had other options available as well, but the main thing is the ingredients were much healthier. As an additional benefit, I found these to have about 50% more calories than the brands I found at the Japanese grocery stores. ? Hope this helps! ? Tim
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Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
Jim, you raised the key point.? According to Inyo's Q&A, that permission to finish would not apply unless you are both on the Forest and not crossing or reentering it from a Park to exit.? Which would raise the interesting circumstance, for instance, that a SoBo hiker out of VVR could finish over Piute Pass to pick up a car staged at North Lake - maybe - but a NoBo Hiker could not, because that would require entering the Forest from the Park.? The maybe is because even the SoBo would have to exit the Sierra and enter the Inyo at the Crest.? Inyo does a lot of things very well,? I am sure, but thinking through its orders and communicating them to the public is not one of them.
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Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
Yet someone said they were driven out of the trail when they reached Reds.?
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On Sep 3, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Jim <Vvrjim@...> wrote:
? That’s close to what I discussed with the district ranger here in the Sierra National Forest, if you are on the trail prior to the closure you can continue your hike to your final destination and your transportation. They can come into VVR or MTR for their resupplies and continue their hikes. The point I raised is that both Kings Cyn and Yosemite National Parks remain open and a good portion of these hikes are in these parks. VVR-Jim? On Sept 1, Inyo issued a Q&A document that appears to allow a hiker who legally entered Inyo before the closure date to continue their hike to their intended exit (at least if they don't exit and re-enter). The text reads "What if I am exiting a backpack? The Inyo National Forest understands that people have trips planned and vehicles staged. This is not an emergency evacuation, but a closure. People should make an expedient, orderly, and safe completion of their hikes. However, people who are planning hikes and backpacks and are aware that they will enter a closed area should change those plans." Inyo then reposted the same Q&A language yesterday. Both posts can be found on the Inyo FB page
This appears inconsistent with the language of the closure order. Hopefully the backcountry ranger advice and the signage was consistent with the "clarification".
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
|
Re: Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
That’s close to what I discussed with the district ranger here in the Sierra National Forest, if you are on the trail prior to the closure you can continue your hike to your final destination and your transportation. They can come into VVR or MTR for their resupplies and continue their hikes. The point I raised is that both Kings Cyn and Yosemite National Parks remain open and a good portion of these hikes are in these parks. VVR-Jim?
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On Sep 3, 2021, at 7:17 AM, John Ladd < johnladd@...> wrote: On Sept 1, Inyo issued a Q&A document that appears to allow a hiker who legally entered Inyo before the closure date to continue their hike to their intended exit (at least if they don't exit and re-enter). The text reads "What if I am exiting a backpack? The Inyo National Forest understands that people have trips planned and vehicles staged. This is not an emergency evacuation, but a closure. People should make an expedient, orderly, and safe completion of their hikes. However, people who are planning hikes and backpacks and are aware that they will enter a closed area should change those plans." Inyo then reposted the same Q&A language yesterday. Both posts can be found on the Inyo FB page
This appears inconsistent with the language of the closure order. Hopefully the backcountry ranger advice and the signage was consistent with the "clarification".
--
John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Inyo "clarifies" closure order to allow hikers legally on the trail to continue to intended exit
#Conditons
#permits
EDITED to add information from a reliable source on the ground:
On Sept 1, Inyo issued a Q&A document that appears to allow a hiker who legally entered Inyo before the closure date to continue their hike to their intended exit (at least if they don't exit and re-enter). The text reads "What if I am exiting a backpack? The Inyo National Forest understands that people have trips planned and vehicles staged. This is not an emergency evacuation, but a closure. People should make an expedient, orderly, and safe completion of their hikes. However, people who are planning hikes and backpacks and are aware that they will enter a closed area should change those plans." Inyo then reposted the same Q&A language yesterday. Both posts can be found on the Inyo FB page
ADDED information to original post: I heard this today (Friday) via a Facebook direct message from a person on the 395 corridor who is talking with a number of hikers and other sources and who has been a very reliable source of information in the past. I was asked to pass on the information without identifying the source. (No one on the East Side can risk antagonizing the Inyo front office) Slightly edited to make it more concise: "Many of the backcountry Rangers did not agree with the shutdown of trails and for interfering with JMT/PCT hikes that were already planned and in progress. They are passively allowing hikers to complete their trip, even with brief exits to resupply. There is no danger to hikers out there other than the usual risks. It is clear and beautiful. Little smoke. There has been no ranger activity at the usual resupply exit & return points in at least the southern part of the JMT. Hikers at this point have been allowed to come and go. Whitney Portal is "closed" but people allowed to come and go for shuttling to cars and such and allowed down from Whitney. Some hikers have ended their trips prematurely but others have successfully returned to the trail after resupply off-trail." The 395 corridor merchants who support us are being hurt. Continuing on the trail is some relief for them. (Also note that VVR, MTR and Mt Williamson are all holding resupplies and that the hiker buckets are overflowing for people who didn't send a resupply).
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John Curran Ladd
1616 Castro Street
San Francisco, CA? 94114-3707
415-648-9279
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Thanks Jim. You are an amazing person and made both my JMts great. Charlie b
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On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:17 AM, Jim <Vvrjim@...> wrote:
?Hi Everyone just a quick update:
VVR will continue to provide hikers their resupply boxes, continue to pickup boxes and store them and we will also provide access to the store for resupplies and offer whatever services may be available at that point in time.
We will have a small crew on-site closing operations but will continue to render whatever services we can, and more than likely into early October.
So, if you arrive by foot we can elaborate on what is currently available as to hiker services. Shuttle transportation services off the mountain will continue through September.
If the Forest reopens on the 18th, what was stated above will be our continued policy.
Happy Hiking - VVR Jim
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Re: Insights on National Park Closure Risks?
To close the loop on this, I received confirmation from SEKI that backpacking entirely within the park continues to be permitted and that there are no current plans to follow the lead of the National Forests, although things can change if conditions change. That being said, I decided to do something on the AT in the fall rather than risk coming out west under present conditions. Hoping for better luck in 2022!
“?Thank you for contacting the Wilderness Office at Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks.?All National Forest Lands are closed, and the National Parks remain open. This will effect your trip because exiting at Whitney Portal is not allowed. You can alter your trip to stay within the National Parks, or you can get a refund because of the closure effecting you. ”
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John Ladd
ravi_jmt2013
Charles Fannin