Re: Another new member -- intro
Thank you Richard, Paul and Nick. Yes, I've read that the S-20R is a pretty decent receiver and worth repairing/restoring. I passed on the Hayseed Hamfest can electrolytic and just used discrete caps when going through the power supply. I also converted to a 3-wire power cord and changed out all but the old mica caps (which rarely fail in my limited experience). The rcvr now "hears" a clean signal injected at the plate of the 6K8 mixer but the local oscillator isn't functioning. If it did, I'm pretty sure it would be a fully operational rcvr. I need to put the thing back on the bench and go over things once again to make sure I have a clear picture of the issues. I hope to do that this coming week and you can be sure I'll have a few questions. :-)
?
Tom
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Re: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Skip,?? we took your topic off the road. Going back to your ?comment ….One suggestion was: ?“You should most likely ?install a 3-wire cable.” But my home (downstairs) is a log home and the 2-conductor wire went in when the logs were placed. ?Upstairs is all code. ? Now I wonder, if you got the answer you really needed.? Once the general question is asked? there are related questions: What are you intending to use the outlet for ? … a radio that expects to have a valid ground wire [3-prong]? or just a radio that is intended to be correctly polarized 2-prongpolarized plug ? I you only want/need the correct polarization, perhaps the upstream GFCI as Jim W mentioned ?will make a 2 prong polarized only outlet legal and sufficient, but it obviously won’t carry a safety ground. ? ? It is my understanding that you don’t have to meet “the NEC code”, but you have to meet the requirements of the local inspection authority or at least their interpretation of codes. ? With all this new micro-stuff somebody should make a micro-Tunnel Boring Machine ?for logs. ? -- don??? va3drl
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Nick, Re I still hear people say "220" when they mean 240V.? How do you know which they mean? Right here the laws for 240 Vs 220 ??are simple, but complicated. ?You put 240V 0r 120 into your long extension and get 220 or 110 out at ?your compressor operating next to your vehicle, even though you have a #12 cord. Blame mr Ohm and others from back then ?in early 1800’s who made our laws!!! ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nick, W1NJC via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? I always use a variac on my vintage gear set to about 115V to keep the filaments safe.? My line V is about 121/242 but at a previous residence it was sitting around 108V! I still hear people say "220" when they mean 240V.? I've also heard "house current" and "mains power". Go to the EU and you'll find 230V, 50Hz (UK is/was 240V), and of course those funky outlets. -- don??? va3drl
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Nick There are many who feel as you do.??
I would check the tube heater voltage at the tube socket.? If it is within 10% of 6.3 volts then all is OK according to the vacuum tube manuals.? I am of the opinion that heat is the real enemy of reliability, not line voltage.? The cooler the chassis is, the longer the tubes (and everything else) will last.? For this reason, I advocate replacing tube rectifiers with silicon.? Less heat is good, a bit higher B+ doesn't mean a thing but a cooler running power transformer does.
Just like with lightbulbs, it is the ON/OFF cycling that is the vacuum tube killer. Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
I always use a variac on my vintage gear set to about 115V to keep the filaments safe.? My line V is about 121/242 but at a previous residence it was sitting around 108V!
I still hear people say "220" when they mean 240V.? I've also heard "house current" and "mains power".
Go to the EU and you'll find 230V, 50Hz (UK is/was 240V), and of course those funky outlets.
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
I always use a variac on my vintage gear set to about 115V to keep the filaments safe.? My line V is about 121/242 but at a previous residence it was sitting around 108V!
I still hear people say "220" when they mean 240V.? I've also heard "house current" and "mains power".
Go to the EU and you'll find 230V, 50Hz (UK is/was 240V), and of course those funky outlets.
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Depends on the year!? Sometime in the 1950's, the line voltage convention was changed from 117 to 120 so the choices were 117 / 234 then and 120 / 240 now.? 115 volts was proposed in 1927 in the NEMA Radio Standards when AC power was first used to power commercial radio receivers. See enclosure, second column, "Ratings."? 110 / 220 was Edison's DC voltage convention which seems to have continued on in appliance specifications when AC became the norm.? ? Times change, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Another reason (other than the transmission losses) to use HVDC transmission lines is to be able to sync together (at 50 or 60 Hz) various parts of the power grids. The power provided by Hydro Quebec, for example, to New York City, will have required to sync the whole Hydro-Quebec grid to the one of the New York state (the reverse was less likely). I believe I already posted about the line from James Bay to Montreal which runs at 735kV AC. It was long debated in the Hydro-Quebec Engineering Dept. that this line should have used HVDC, but because it have only one destination (Montreal area) it has been feasible to design a proper phase compensation system that take care of the varying loads at the end of the line. Remark here that this power line is near to a quarter wave long at 60 Hz ! It also means that all the generators in James Bay central have to turn almost a quarter of a cycle IN ADVANCE to the ones that are used at Beauharnois (near Montreal). 贵补蝉肠颈苍补迟颈苍驳… ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? A fascinating list, I didn't realize there were so many. Many years
ago I went on a tour given of the Sylmar station of the Pacific
Intertie. It was fascinating. It looked like the set for a very high
budget Si-Fi movie. The converters were covered over with tarps because
some of the technology was secret. I don't know what they were using at
the time but am sure its been up-graded since. I was in the switch yard
when a group of power factor correcting capacitors were switched. Made a
noise like a bomb going off.
Half the power for the city of Los Angeles comes through this
station and it could supply the entire demand. Some power comes from the
"Four Corners" power plant and some from local power stations. Not sure
if Boulder Dam is still active.
I think perhaps Donald meant local distribution of power. The
interties are long distance bulk power where DC has advantages, but for
local distribution AC is the preferred method. There were and maybe
still are many local electric supply companies with Edison in their
names, for instance around here, outside of the City of Los Angeles,
there is the Southern California Edison Company. Have nothing to do with
Edison but the name remains.
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Donald "Now gone?" that's really funny!? Even professional electricians still call it the "Edison three wire system."? See:?
Might as well to try to discourage the old terms: 110 volts, 115 volts, 117 volts conventions, cps versus Hertz and the use of Ohm's Law to describe power.? This is properly know as Joule's Law but good luck with that.? Regards, Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Just pointing out that is it no longer called the Edison system
Any relation to Edison is now gone so stop calling it that
The only Edison we have kept is his light bulb screw and it socket
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:30?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems.
Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? See:?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:53:47 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
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Re: Another new member -- intro
Good luck with the S-20R, they are actually good receivers. I bought
one, supposedly restored, several years ago and found that while it
worked the restorer had done a pretty crude job, so it did it properly.
I did change the detector and noise limiter to the circuit used in the
S-40, which had less distortion (detector). Would not have made the
change if the original restorer had not made a lot of changes previously.
My first short wave receiver was a new S-38B. Had I not been a dumb
little kid or had some help we (my parents of course payed for it) could
probably have gotten a used S-20R for the same money. Its a couple of
steps up from the S-38B. I had that S-38B until it was accidently sold
with a bunch of stuff I had in storage and needed to get rid of.
Anyway, the S-20R is worth the effort. I have another to be restored
on the back burner. Beware that the stuff inside may not be exactly what
the handbook shows. I think Hallicrafters used whatever was on hand to
get stuff out the back door. Modern film capacitors will do wonders for
it. You can get exact duplicate can elecrolytics from Hayseed Hamfest.
I encourage you to get a ham license if you are interested in radio
or electronics. Lots of free learning material on the web.
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On 1/10/2025 9:34 AM, Allthumbs via groups.io wrote: I have just been approved as a member of this list and have been busy
reading many of the posts to familiarize myself with it.
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
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Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
A fascinating list, I didn't realize there were so many. Many years
ago I went on a tour given of the Sylmar station of the Pacific
Intertie. It was fascinating. It looked like the set for a very high
budget Si-Fi movie. The converters were covered over with tarps because
some of the technology was secret. I don't know what they were using at
the time but am sure its been up-graded since. I was in the switch yard
when a group of power factor correcting capacitors were switched. Made a
noise like a bomb going off.
Half the power for the city of Los Angeles comes through this
station and it could supply the entire demand. Some power comes from the
"Four Corners" power plant and some from local power stations. Not sure
if Boulder Dam is still active.
I think perhaps Donald meant local distribution of power. The
interties are long distance bulk power where DC has advantages, but for
local distribution AC is the preferred method. There were and maybe
still are many local electric supply companies with Edison in their
names, for instance around here, outside of the City of Los Angeles,
there is the Southern California Edison Company. Have nothing to do with
Edison but the name remains.
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On 1/10/2025 12:34 PM, Jim Whartenby via groups.io wrote: Donald
You are mistaken.? See:
List_of_HVDC_projects <>
for a very long list of existing HVDC transmission projects.
Regards,
Jim
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
SKCC 19998
|
Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Let’s try to make peace with AC and DC power this way --
Low voltage DC transmission is impractical.
High voltage DC transmission works great since there is no “Crest Factor” to deal with.? In HVDC the average, rms, and peak values are all the same.? This means higher voltage without peaks requires less costly extreme voltage insulators, and better utilization of the conductors as there is no skin effect, and no concerns for reactance.
For distribution – generally at lower voltage, AC wins since with transformers we can fiddle with the distribution voltages to optimize demands on conductor size, conductor loss, and insulation requirements.
AC and DC are both great power systems – each with advantages and disadvantages.
Mike/
K5MGR
_____________________________________________
Mike Langner
929 Alameda Road NW
Albuquerque, NM 87114-1901
(505) 898-3212 home/home office
(505) 238-8810 cell
mlangner@...
?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? You are mistaken.? See:?? for a very long list of existing HVDC transmission projects. Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 01:44:27 PM CST, Donald J via groups.io <djeffarndt@...> wrote: Long range DC distribution is not practical as we have proven many times over Under the Edison system EVERY block in New York had to have its own generator as running the DC more than a block was to cost prohibitive as the wire became so thick ? On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:30?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote: No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems. Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:53:47 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt=[email protected]> wrote: You did not read that right It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system! A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. ? On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt=[email protected]> wrote: "Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. ? On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio=[email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
|
Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Donald You are mistaken.? See:?? for a very long list of existing HVDC transmission projects. Regards, Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Long range DC distribution is not practical as we have proven many times over
Under the Edison system EVERY block in New York had to have its own generator as running the DC more than a block was to cost prohibitive as the wire became so thick
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:30?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems.
Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? See:?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:53:47 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
|
Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Long range DC distribution is not practical as we have proven many times over
Under the Edison system EVERY block in New York had to have its own generator as running the DC more than a block was to cost prohibitive as the wire became so thick
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:30?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems.
Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? See:?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:53:47 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
|
Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Just pointing out that is it no longer called the Edison system
Any relation to Edison is now gone so stop calling it that
The only Edison we have kept is his light bulb screw and it socket
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:30?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems.
Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? See:?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:53:47 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system. On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
|
Re: Power distribution, was: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
No, I read it correctly.? You are proposing a distinction without a difference.? The Edison system was developed to reduce the number of conductors and the cost in a power distribution system, a benefit applied equally well to both DC and AC systems.
Might as well debunk another myth that AC is more efficient then DC in power distribution.? The main losses in both systems is due to wire resistance but AC distribution also has reactive and skin effect losses that DC distribution does not have.? AC power distribution is perhaps more convenient but?it is less efficient.?? See:?? Regards from a snowy Arkansas, Jim
Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system.
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
|
Re: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Getting back to the original grounding question/concerns:
Here is some good info on residential grounding:
I am adding some info on the sub-panel:? why in a moment
In the subpanel info, it doesn't mention much about the separation of grounds and neutrals but the inset picture shows it. The grounds? have a separate bus bar and the neutral bar is insulated from the enclosure?so it does not share the ground?- only neutral wires are connected to it.
The reason I want to share this with you - I ran into this problem because my main breaker panel became a subpanel with the new electrical code.
When you do an upgrade to your household electrical and it could be just replacing your existing panel with a better one is enough to jump you to the new code in most jurisdictions. The new code requires that an emergency disconnect switch has to be added to the outside of the home near/next to the electrical service meter. This is because fire and other emergency folks? want a way to easily and quickly shut off power so they don't have to worry about it while handling an emergency such as a fire.
So, this outside disconnect (it can be a switch or a circuit breaker type in an enclosure) but due to code, this enclosure has bonded neutral with dual ground rod grounding and becomes your MAIN now. So your inside the home breaker/load panel you have becomes a SUB and now you have to isolate your ground?wires and neutral wires in your home wiring!
If this happens to you, it could be expensive and time consuming so I wanted to share that.
Best to you all
Donald
You did not read that right
It is similar but not the Edison system - the one we use is SIMILAR to the Edison split DC system!
A?split-phase?or?single-phase three-wire?system is a type of??distribution. It is the??(AC) equivalent of the original??three-wire??system. Its primary advantage is that, for a given capacity of a distribution system, it saves conductor material over a single-ended single-phase system.
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 10:25?AM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 04:12:26 AM CST, Donald J via <djeffarndt= [email protected]> wrote:
"Edison" split phase system? Edison fought the AC system - he was the DC guy
Grounding and where neutral and ground interconnect depends on where the main (i.e. first) panel is located. After that any other panels the grounds and neutrals are separate. On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:53?PM Jim Whartenby via <old_radio= [email protected]> wrote: Isn't the neutral line grounded in the Edison split phase system at the pole mounted transformer and again at the service entrance of the residence?? Every house I have lived in had a copper clad steel rod driven into the ground just below the power meter and the main cutoff switch boxes. Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
Maynard, it was the connection at the pole in my case; anyhow as someone said, the so called “neutral” can not be guaranteed to be at ground level. ? ? That happened to mine, too, some years ago. Measurements showed that
the neutral lead coming from the power company via the service entrance
had a loose connection which the power guys fixed quickly once they arrived.
73,
Maynard
W6PAP
--
don??? va3drl
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Re: 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?
Hi Jim, I would copy what I see on Wiki-p? , but I will just mention that I see some critical punctuation in there. Others should look for themselves. ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2025 10:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] 2-wire, unpolarized outlet ?? Yes, it is known as the Edison split phase system, see: -- don??? va3drl
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Re: Another new member -- intro
Tom
Welcome from another "SWL / non ham" guy
You will be amazed at the amount of knowledge from these guys here
Tom Latimer
On 1/10/2025 12:34, Allthumbs via
groups.io wrote:
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I have just been approved as a member of this list and have
been busy reading many of the posts to familiarize myself with
it. I am not a licensed amateur radio operator but have been a
SWL since high school in the Sixties. I "discovered" shortwave
when my father let me fiddle with his 1936 RCA Victor 2-band
consumer radio which he had purchased new. I found it in my
parents' attic ca. 1990 and restored it. I own two Hallicrafters
receivers--an almost-functioning S20R which I've owned for a
couple of years, and an SX-28 (not an "A" model) which I've
owned and used for over 30 years and which failed a couple of
months ago. I intend to get both operating before long and will
probably have a few questions about them for this list along the
way. Looking forward to following many of the topics discussed
here.
?
Tom
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Re: Another new member -- intro
Nick
Beautiful radio
Tom Latimer
On 1/10/2025 13:21, Nick, W1NJC via
groups.io wrote:
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Welcome, Tom.? I'm also new to this forum.? I've been a ham
for 30+ years now and in the past several years have gotten into
vintage receivers and transmitters.? I hope saying this doesn't
get me in trouble, but antiqueradios.com and amfone.net are also
great resources to scour when looking for info on vintage gear.
My most recent Halli endeavor is a SX-23 from 1939:
?
?
Good luck with the S-20R and the SX-28!
?
73,
Nick W1NJC
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Allthumbs
don Root
Jim Whartenby
Jacques_VE2JFE
Mike Langner
Donald J