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Re: S-20R mixer cct.
My 410B has a built in 22 megohm isolation resistor built into the
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DC probe. My GR VTVM does not but I put a one meg resistor in series with it. It has a 10 meg input resistance so the extra megohm does not affect the voltage. I am attaching an S-20R handbook to this post. Its my scan and fairly decent, at least readable. The same scan is on BAMA along with some others. It does not have a voltage or resistance chart. I hope it is of some help to you. I bought a supposedly rebuilt S-20R several years ago at a swap meet. Worked but I found the rebuilder had left out the noise limiter and some other stuff I don't remember. In any case, I did a thorough rebuild using polypropylene caps and replaced several resistors. The set does not have the original electro-dynamic speaker but has a good quality PM speaker. The PM speaker can be used by replacing the speaker field coil with a 1500 ohm resistor as is done in the S-40A. It is a surprisingly good receiver. I have another on the back burner to be restored. FWIW I also have a Tek DVM. Same input resistance for DC, I sometimes use an isolation resistor at the measuring point but the 410B is more convenient. On 3/4/2025 5:38 PM, don Root wrote: Richard ?do your DVM’s have an isolation probe for capacitance -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL SKCC 19998 |
Re: S-20R mixer cct.
开云体育Richard ?do your DVM’s have an isolation probe for capacitance decoupling back to the DOT? ??? Resistance of DVMs can be? very high, but ?test wires have capacitance that will ?mess with tuned circuits as the LO.? Halli sometimes indicated which pins can be measured with only a VTVM , but the S-20R on Bama has no chart and the schematic I see is mostly not readable. ? _ -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-20R mixer cct.
Thank you, Don. No, the set was not operating when I acquired it last year. It is dead on all bands. Over the winter I through it and replaced all resistors and capacitors, upgraded the power cord to 3-conductor, and replaced the speaker with a PM type plus a choke. I have a spare, 4" electrodynamic type of speaker like the original but have not yet tried it. Yes, I tried cleaning the 6K8 socket pins with De-Oxit, and I tried a second tube. If that was the only problem, I don't think the voltages on the tube socket would still be "off."
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Tom
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Re: S-20R mixer cct.
Thank you, Jacques. The problem is on all bands. I have replaced all the resistors and capacitors in this set except for a large mica cap buried under the oscillator coil assembly. I was hoping not to have to lift that assembly.
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Tom
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Re: S-20R mixer cct.
A DMM and a VTVM are essentially the same. I prefer the term
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"electronic voltmeter". The voltages for the S-20R were probably taken with a passive VOM. I don't remember if the meter characteristics are shown with the voltage chart, they should be. The load resistance of the meter affects the readings, for using a voltage chart the measurement meter must be the same as whatever the factory used. Older VOM's are typically 1000 ohms/volt and later ones (mostly post WW-2) are usually 20,OOO ohms/Volt both for DC. AC can be something else but critical AC measurements are usually of grid voltage and require a VTVM or DMV. The load resistance of a passive VOM is established by the voltage divider string. The Ohms/V means that the load presented by the meter is equal to the full scale voltage times the ohms per volt and will be the same for that range. For higher voltage ranges the load resistance can be very high but for low voltages it will be low enough to give trouble when measuring grid bias (or AVC) voltages. The load resistance of a VTVM or DVM is essentially constant although it may be higher for higher ranges, depending on the meter. Typical meters are about 10 megohm load independent of range or voltage. Some meters have an isolating resistor in the probe to reduce capacitive loading. For instance, Heathkit meters have a 1 megohm resistor in the tip of the probe, that is why their specified load is 11 megohms while the meter itself is a 10Meg unit. I read the original complaint as the receiver is not oscillating on all bands. That suggests the oscillator section of the tuning capacitor has a short in it. Easy to find with an ohm meter. Can be other things of course. If the cap is OK check the resistors and capacitors associated with the oscillator. My S-20R had lots of bad resistors. I changed every paper or electrolytic cap in it and found many resistors far out of spec. It is a good receiver and should perform pretty well. Deafer on the higher band as are most older multi band receivers but changing the paper caps to plastic ones will help that. There is one low inductance cap, forgotten which one but has ribbon type leads. Just replace it with a regular plastic cap, it will work fine. On 3/4/2025 1:56 PM, don Root wrote: Hello Tom -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL SKCC 19998 |
Re: S-20R mixer cct.
开云体育Hello Tom Around the HF, especially the LO, I wonder if you can trust a DMM having only wires {no isolation probe } at some pins. It never did work while you have had it? ? Assume, you tried another tube ? ?and since you did not say..it ?must be dead on all bands? What all has been changed {or not] in that area… ?? De-Oxit on socket ? Do you have other test equipment?
-- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-20R mixer cct.
开云体育Hi Tom, The triode section of the 6K8 is effectively not oscillating, and that explain all the voltage readings you got. There should be an open coil somewhere, or an open capacitor in the oscillator path. Are all the bands defective (aka not working) ? If all the coils windings are OK when checked with an ohmmeter, either C33 or C37 (or both !) can be “open”. ? 73, Jacques, VE2JFE in Montreal ? De?: [email protected] <[email protected]> De la part de Allthumbs via groups.io ? Newish member of this group, first time posting. I have an S-20R in need of repair. I am not a trained technician and am not particularly good at interpreting symptoms. However, I do have the chassis working just as it should from the grid of the first i.f. through the audio output. But the mixer stage is faulty—the LO is not oscillating. ? I have a voltage chart for an S-20R that was made up by a member of the Antique Radio Forum. The tube pin voltage readings on my chassis agree almost entirely with his chart, except for the 6K8 mixer. I’m posting the readings in the chart below. FYI—I took these readings with the chassis powered via a bucking transformer so that it runs on 117 vac. On the first line are his readings and on the second line, in red, are my own. FWIW, my voltage readings were made with a DMM, not a VTVM. ? ? If it helps, here's the mixer section: If you’re familiar with these sets, you might recall that the underside of the 6K8 socket is a bit difficult to access because the oscillator coil assembly partially covers it. Maybe the symptoms I’m posting will point to a solution that would mean I won’t face the daunting task of partially disconnecting and? lifting the whole coil assembly.? :-) ? Any thoughts? Thank you, ? Tom |
S-20R mixer cct.
Newish member of this group, first time posting. I have an S-20R in need of repair. I am not a trained technician and am not particularly good at interpreting symptoms. However, I do have the chassis working just as it should from the grid of the first i.f. through the audio output. But the mixer stage is faulty—the LO is not oscillating. ? I have a voltage chart for an S-20R that was made up by a member of the Antique Radio Forum. The tube pin voltage readings on my chassis agree almost entirely with his chart, except for the 6K8 mixer. I’m posting the readings in the chart below. FYI—I took these readings with the chassis powered via a bucking transformer so that it runs on 117 vac. On the first line are his readings and on the second line, in red, are my own. FWIW, my voltage readings were made with a DMM, not a VTVM. ? ? If it helps, here's the mixer section: If you’re familiar with these sets, you might recall that the underside of the 6K8 socket is a bit difficult to access because the oscillator coil assembly partially covers it. Maybe the symptoms I’m posting will point to a solution that would mean I won’t face the daunting task of partially disconnecting and ?lifting the whole coil assembly.? :-) ? Any thoughts? Thank you, ? Tom |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
Well, you and I seem to differ on the value of that thread. I learned
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several things from folks here who have a wealth of knowledge. 73, Maynard W6PAP On 2/27/25 16:28, edward schumacher wrote: So new thread started on the same dead horse. how many weeks will this |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
开云体育So new thread started on the same dead horse. how many weeks will this one run?? ?52 ? ? HOPE IT BEGINS TO WORK -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
So new thread started on the same dead horse. how many weeks will this one run?
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 04:09:43 PM CST, don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
Maynard, yes wording is tough.? “C62”? had been started..? then it moved ? To me it showed that it was thought to be needed? for? a simple coil, but not for a transformer? .. A version Then when the B came along? with two coils, they moved it ?a bit. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maynard Wright via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 3:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1? ? Hi, Don, Maynard on the S-40A,? C62 is ??in use on band 2 only but connects V1 -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
开云体育Hi Jim , and all; ?revising numbering ?makes it tough to compare things !!!! So the Halli C62 function remains? ?despite our communication inability. ? I guess that it one reason I often take a snip of what I? See on the drawing and circle it?? etc. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Whartenby via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 5:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1? ? The S-40B Photofact Folder that I copied calls it C7 but it is still a 2.2 pF cap just as is C62.? Sam's has a format that they follow so their component designations are not the same as hallicrafters, especially after several hallicrafters S-40 revisions. See:?? Jim ? ?? -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
开云体育Maynard FYI ??S-40 [no suffix]?? This seems to have no C62 and looks like “your” 40A at first glance? ..SO? maybe you have an early run manual of the “40A” ? ? FYI ??S-40A I was using= ??? ? Another thing, the bias/AVC line to V1 changed when going to the 40B, so it needed that C33? because L3 was not a transformer. ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maynard Wright via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 3:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1? ? And my S-40A schematic is from Sam's Photofacts (via the Web) and it -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
The S-40B Photofact Folder that I copied calls it C7 but it is still a 2.2 pF cap just as is C62.? Sam's has a format that they follow so their component designations are not the same as hallicrafters, especially after several hallicrafters S-40 revisions. See:?? Jim Logic: Method used to arrive at the wrong conclusion, with confidence.? Murphy
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 02:52:05 PM CST, Maynard Wright via groups.io <m-wright@...> wrote:
And my S-40A schematic is from Sam's Photofacts (via the Web) and it doesn't have C62 as in your schematic nor does it use independent designation of each component, but labels them with numbers referred to the table of components. So more than one component can have the same number. So I suspect that your schematic excerpt is from the S-40A Hallicrafters manual, which looks (in your excerpt) more like the S-40B and S-85 schematics I have from Hallicrafters manuals. But I don't have that manual. Since those two schematics don't agree, I wonder whether there was a revision during production of the S-40A. 73, Maynard W6PAP On 2/27/25 12:38, Maynard Wright wrote: Hi, Don, |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
开云体育Maynard, yes wording is tough.? “C62”? had been started..? then it moved ? To me it showed that it was thought to be needed? for? a simple coil, but not for a transformer? .. A version Then when the B came along? with two coils, they moved it ?a bit. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maynard Wright via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 3:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1? ? Hi, Don, Maynard on the S-40A,? C62 is ??in use on band 2 only but connects V1 -- don??? va3drl |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
And my S-40A schematic is from Sam's Photofacts (via the Web) and it
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doesn't have C62 as in your schematic nor does it use independent designation of each component, but labels them with numbers referred to the table of components. So more than one component can have the same number. So I suspect that your schematic excerpt is from the S-40A Hallicrafters manual, which looks (in your excerpt) more like the S-40B and S-85 schematics I have from Hallicrafters manuals. But I don't have that manual. Since those two schematics don't agree, I wonder whether there was a revision during production of the S-40A. 73, Maynard W6PAP On 2/27/25 12:38, Maynard Wright wrote: Hi, Don, |
Re: S-85: how are the RF amplifier tube (v1) and the MIX/OSC tube (v2) coupled in band1?
Hi, Don,
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When I said that there is no C62 equivalent in the S-40A, I meant that there is no capacitor like C62 that is connected around the switching and resonant circuits so that it is completely independent of the setting of the bandswitch. 73, Maynard W6PAP On 2/27/25 11:49, don Root wrote:
Maynard on the S-40A,? C62 is ??in use on band 2 only but connects V1 |