On Sep 28, 2018, at 6:11 AM, Samuel Murray <samuelmurray@...> wrote:

On 2018/09/28 05:58 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:

The responsibility to educate individual email List users should not
be on individual groups owner, who will not all do so (if at all) in
a clear and rational way.

I think the best way to "educate" users about a problem such as this one is not to try to teach them about the problem beforehand or to try to give a long explanation afterwards, but to lead them in the most appropriate course of action at the time that the problem occurs.

This means that what happens when the user (victim) gets unsubscribed must help the user to get resubscribed as painlessly as possible. In other words, what happens to the victim must be fair and the victim must be treated with compassion.

When the victim gets unsubscribed, he should be informed in a compassionate (possibly apologetic) way, and told how to undo the bad thing that had happened to him. To my mind, the current wording of the notification sent by Groups.io to victims is more suitable for users who would find it merely curious that they have been unsubscribed (instead of upsetting), as if it is just an odd thing that had happened and for which the rational explanation is interesting to know.

The notification sent to group moderators does not need to exude the same level of commisseration, but I personally find the current wording more suited for someone who has always been aware of the problem and needs just a gentle reminder, as opposed to a warning that something bad had just happened that requires the moderator's urgent attention.

I say in my Welcome Message to new subscribers (although this is
probably not enough):...

Yes, users tend to forget information that they were told at the start of their participation, if it isn't something they encounter often during their participation. This is why I send a biweekly FAQ in all of my Yahoogroup groups, but even that may not be sufficient: if a message repeats itself too often, you tend to ignore it eventually.

Groups.io could
send a monthly (probably more frequent) Special Notices asking users
for their help (including explaining WHY) and telling users to be
sure to (and HOW):...

No solution that involves users having to actively patrol their mailboxes will be successful. Users just want to participate.

Samuel

(newbie jumping into the fray here but I think I have read enough about the issue to be allowed to speak)

On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:38 AM, Patty Sliney via Groups.Io <hoosierquilt@...> wrote:

Okay, for fear of getting stomped on, again, since I've been a vocal proponent of changing this function on Groups.io, here is my experience with my large groups:

1. I have tried to educate before hand, all of my list members, about this unusual policy (don't know any other forum/chat group that has this policy). I have this policy explained in my Welcome letter that new list members receive. It's in my groups' Wiki page, and all list members get a monthly reminder message. We also talked about this policy in general discussion on all my lists. Folks still are getting themselves unsubbed. Not at the rate in the beginning of our transfer, thankfully, but it still happens about 1-2 list members (NOT spammers) a week.

2. The Welcome letter that gets sent to all new list members is probably read by maybe 50% of the recipients at best. Same with monthly message reminders (that's probably even lower). Doubt many of my list members read our Wiki page, but it's in there.

3. The general Groups.io Help files would be the most logical place for subscribers/members to go, to find out about Groups.io. There should be a very robust explanation of why this policy is in place, how it can happen, and how to fix your membership, if you are unsubscribed due to marking a Groups.io message as spam. In detail. With photos, and in non-technical language. My list members' average age is probably around 60-65. Mostly women (do not go there, please. I am in that age group, I was one of the minority of women my age that became educated with computers, I worked for IBM when the 088 chip was invented in the early '70's, I was IN THE MINORITY at IBM). Most who missed the "computer age" and struggle with technology. Some are really sharp, some are retired software engineers, coders, etc. Vast majority, however, really struggle to use even the basic functions of a computer, which is actually why they are list members on my lists - to get help with the technology learning curve with their computerized and complex embroidery machines and embroidery software. They need the explanations to be detailed, but clear and simple. They appreciate the "why" behind the explanation. Groups.io should provide this - after all, this is Mark's policy, no? Not group list owners (who are trying to do their best with their individual groups as I have done.)

4. Sending the resubscription email is ineffective at best, worthless at it's worst. Why? Because guess where it goes, now?? To the unsubscribed person's Junk/Spam folder. So, they don't see it. And, by the time we list mods send our unsubbed list members a notification email from our PRIVATE email addresses (yes, I have instructed all my list members to check the auto notifications so they get a notification of list members who are approved, leave or are unsubbed, and they MUST use their private email address to notify that list member of their unsubscription, so the list member actually gets that notification in their INBOX and not their SPAM folder), it's possible that the unsubbed list member will miss out on that 3 day window they have, to restore themselves. That window should be set to 7 days. That would give list mods a little more time to alert unsubbed list members using a private email that won't get routed to that list member's spam folder, and a couple of days for the affected list member to read the email, try to find that restore email, and get themselves restored.

5. All of my list members in concert (without any prompting from me) felt this policy was "ruthless". That is the best adjective I've heard to describe this puzzling policy. Now - before you all launch in on why this policy needs to be in place, save your breath. I understand why Mark put this in place. BUT, I think there is a much better way to manage this: Instead of completely unsubbing a list member for inadvertently marking a message as Spam (or WORSE, they didn't do ANYTHING, but their ISP/email service decided to do that for them), don't unsub them. Suspend them and place them in a Suspension list. Send out all the alerts as is being done now. But, let the list mods be able to restore someone, and not force unsuspecting and confused (and angry) list members try to figure it out. It IS hurting our list membership. I've gotten nasty emails from unsubbed list members asking why "did you ban me??!! I didn't do anything or post anything wrong!" So, lots of emails having to go back and forth, explaining why it happened, list mods didn't do anything to the list member, it's a Groups.io policy, etc. Huge waste of list mod/owners' time to try to placate the angry, unsubbed list member. Word of mouth bad will being spread as well about this odd and very unique policy. Instead, place these offenders on a Suspension list so the list mod/owner can easily restore them, after assessing whether or not they are a spammer or a bona fide list member. To date, since June, not one single unsubbed list member on my two very large groups were a spammer. They were all list members.
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On Sep 28, 2018, at 10:26 AM, Dotty Bell <quiltsallday@...> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Michael Pavan wrote:

The responsibility to educate individual email List users should not be on individual groups owner, who will not all do so (if at all) in a clear and rational way.

I disagree. The group owner knows his/her members and how best to effectively help them individually if necessary. That's one of the responsibilities we assume when agreeing to own or moderate a group. If you don't want the job, don't take it. Sorry, don't want to sound abrupt, but that's my feeling.

Groups.io could send a monthly (probably more frequent) Special Notices asking users for their help

Again, why should this be done by Groups.io? I am strongly opposed to any repeated messages of instruction for an issue that affects only a relatively few subscribers. Repeated messages tend to be ignored anyway. Yes, I understand with a large group the number affected may seem large, but for the majority it is not an issue. If an individual owner wants to send reminders, they can do that at their group level. Again, take responsibility for your own group. But don't force the issues of a few on all.

Groups.io should be sure to explain WHY and HOW (in non-computer savvy language), not just refer what seems to many to be a cryptic Wiki. Pictures and/or videos might be useful.

The non-technical explanation you suggest could be referenced in the "unsubscribe notification" sent to both the member and the owner. That would help both the member and any owner not yet "educated" on the issue, and would give them a common reference when resolving the problem. That would be my preferred method of dealing with this.

Just my two cents :)
Dotty

Thanks Chris and Shal. My members don't really go to the home page. They get mail delivered to them and that is what they read. So posting this information I don't think will help much. They are older and get confused. I don't want to make it complicated for them or they will leave. ??? Anita