Hi Berlene,
? ? If you are referring to the Results page of the Daniel DNA Project, those results are only for Y DNA results. Ancestry DNA testing uses autosomal DNA as does FTDNA Family Finder. If your Daniel cousin is a male with the last name of Daniel, he would need to take a Y DNA test at Family Tree DNA to have his results included on the Results page.?

Best,

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I have just now connected with a Daniel cousin who lives in Arkansas.? He is a direct descendant of Basil/Bazel Daniel and has taken a DNA test through Ancestry.com.

I will tell his wife to upload his dna to GEDmatch.com but how does she upload her data to the Daniel chart?

Thanks,
Berlene Jacques?

?

Hi Charlie,
?? I do not know if either man is still active, but if you send me your email address (kevin@...) I will send them your post and contact information at the email address they used for Family Tree DNA.

Best,

Kevin

Hi Jack,
??? The haplogroup of the descendants of William Daniel of Middlesex County, VA is I-M253. This line has impeccable primary evidence to support identification of multiple descendants of William Daniel's two oldest sons, William Jr. and Robert. All test to I-M253. As noted on Pam's page, there is ample primary record evidence to support the probability that James Daniel, "step-"son of William Daniel, was the son of Jochebed and her previous husband and descendants of his line are R-M269. I have not looked at the primary record evidence around identifying the descendants of James but have done so for William Jr. and Robert. It is solid.
??? The alternative would be that the DNA of the lines of both of William's oldest sons, William Jr. and Robert, was broken by men with the same Y DNA. This even less likely because descendants of multiple sons of both men have tested and their Y DNA matches. I guess it is also possible that the line of James Daniel is broken and he was actually I-M253.

http://pamiller.net/genealogy/docs/danielmiddlesex/danieldna/james.htm

?? If there is evidence which contradicts these findings, I am certain that Pam would be very interested in knowing about it. She can be contacted through her web site. I don't think Pam has joined this Daniel group, yet. I will send her an invitation.

?? Primary record evidence clearly proves that the William Daniel who married Dorothy Forth never left England and his sons, who also never left England, had no children. The idea that William Daniel and Dorothy Forth or their sons came to America and were progenitors of Daniel lines here was most likely due to one or more researchers many years ago trying to build a fictional ancestry linking them to the most prominent William Daniel they could identify. There was never any kind of primary record evidence to support this claim.

?? We do have a member of the Over Tabley/Cheshire Daniel family in the Daniel DNA Project. I don't remember what his haplogroup is but his Y DNA does not match any other Daniel men in the Daniel DNA Project. He is the only member of the project who can trace ancestry back to the Over Tabley or Cheshire Daniel families. I believe he and his family still live in Cheshire. That being said, I would not consider this line proved since we have only one participant from this line. Neither R1b/R-M269 or? I2/I-M253 would be an unusual haplogroup for Cheshire families.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles

?? As far as I can recall, no American Daniel lines in the Daniel DNA Project can trace their ancestry using primary records back to a Daniel man in the UK before 1800. If anyone is aware of such a line please chime in!

?? We do have some Daniel men in Australia and South Africa (?) who can trace their line back to a Daniel family in England which was landed gentry. That line goes back pretty far.

Kevin

Kevin and List Members,

I descend from Martin Daniel Sr (ca. 1750-1811) of Mecklenburg Co., VA through his son Martin Daniel Jr (ca 1792-bef 1850).? Back in 2010, I was in contact with a? James "Jim" Daniel of Gray Summitt, Missouri.? He was descended from a William Powell Daniel born circa 1808 in Mecklenburg Co., VA and Bedford Co., TN who married Martha Wiggins.? He stated that he had has his YDNA tested and that he was a 34 out of 35 marker match with a Charles Arnold Daniel of Belton, TX who descended from Robert G. Daniel and Mary Ann Terrell.? Robert G. Daniel was the son of Stark Daniel (1775-1864) and Lucy Yancey.? Stark Daniel was the son of my Martin Daniel Sr (ca. 1750-1811) and brother to my Martin Daniel Jr (ca. 1792-bef 1850).?

Jim Daniel had speculated, but didn't have the proof, that his William Powell Daniel (b 1808) was the Grandson of Revolutionary War Veteran William Powell Daniel (ca. 1755-1836) of Mecklenburg Co., VA and Coffee Co., TN.? There are many similar given names in both the families of my Martin Daniel Sr and Jim's William Powell Daniel (b 1808) including "Martin", "Wiley", and "Walter".?

Kevin...do you know if either Jim Daniel or Charles Arnold Daniel are still active in the Daniel YDNA project??? I don't have their kit numbers so I have nothing on their Haplogroup.? I don't think that any male Daniel from my Martin Daniel Jr has tested.? I realize that a 35 marker test is pretty broad in the sense of what it can provide, but I wanted to see if there may have been more submissions that match these two gentlemen and begin to use YDNA as a means to find my Martin Daniel Sr's lineage.? I?will focus on finding a male Daniel from my line of Martin Daniel Jr to test at a much higher marker....possibly Big Y700.?

FYI: Bedford County and Coffee County, TN are adjacent to each other just south of Murfreesboro, TN.?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Charlie Rathbun
Knoxville, TN

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Hi Kevin

Some years ago I was emailing a descendant of the Daniels of Tabley. He said they are R1b and not I2.

I think the same may be true of the Middlesex VA Daniels.

Jack

Hi Jack,
? I moved this discussion under the topic of "Roger Daniel of Warwick County, VA" so that future researchers can find it more easily.

Kevin

It’s fine. I appreciate all the info in this discussion. It’s helped me realize how difficult all this is to sort out. I definitely intend to do some DNA testing to see where it goes. I just need to save up the money. I’ve been working on my family tree for over 10 years but never got into the DNA side. Some of my other family lines were already well researched. But I have been disconnected from the Daniel side most of my life. I didn’t even know who my paternal grandfather was until I reconnected with my uncle a couple years ago. He took me to the cemetery where my Daniel grandparents and great grand parents are buried. Turned out it was only a quarter mile from where my mother in law lived and I had no idea! I had even visited that grave yard before and had no clue I had relatives buried there. So I’m basically the first one of my Daniel’s to do this research as far as i know. So I’m starting from scratch. I truly appreciate all the knowledge and advice y’all are sharing.?

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 09:40 PM, <dgarner.tn@...> wrote:

Hello,?
I am new to the Daniel Surname DNA Project and to this group. I am trying to trace my line. I can trace it back to one Woodson M Daniel with primary sources. He lived c. 1830 to after 1860 and was married to Susan Elizabeth Kidd and they were from Knoxville, TN. I am descended through their son Marcus Rosencrans Daniel. I am trying to trace their line further back. I have looked at several public trees on Ancestry.com and Familysearch.com. The line seems fairly clear back to a Captain James Daniel from VA who reportedly lived 1709-1761. But there seems to be confusion because there were multiple James Daniels from VA. I learned about the Daniel DNA Project through this page for one of the James Daniels.??Perhaps I will need to do a Y DNA test to confirm who I am descended from. But I dont know how that works. Is there a database of Daniel DNA profiles my test can be compared to? Has anyone already sorted out this line from Woodson M or Marcus R back to the correct James Daniel? Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

David,
??? I apologize for hijacking your thread.

??? My advice would be to take the 37 marker test at Family Tree DNA. The current cost for this test is $119. Eventually, you will want to start refining the genetic distance between yourself and other Daniels who you match and you can only do that by comparing your markers to theirs.

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Daniel

??? With regard to testing at YSEQ.net I recommend doing that, as well, since it is very inexpensive, much cheaper than testing for individual SNPs than doing so at Family Tree DNA. Testing a single SNP at YSEQ costs $18, but the first time you do so costs $23 since you will have to do a one time DNA sample submission. I do both, myself. We (men) all share a specific SNP mutation with our close matches, particularly with men who share are surname and are related within a genealogically meaningful time frame. This is called our Terminal SNP.

http://www.yseq.net/

?? Terminal SNPs for your cousin group will change as new, more recent SNP mutations are discovered, so you will likely test for new terminal SNPs several times of a period of years, if you decide to do this. It just depends on how deeply you want to dig into your matches. Most men who do Y DNA testing do not do deeper SNP testing and don't test for their Terminal SNP, relying instead on testing more DNA markers. Some do both.

?? You could go ahead and test for the A11115 SNP as Jack suggested, or wait until you get your Y DNA results and see what the Terminal SNPs of your matches are. It might save you $18 if you don't match A11115, but at least your DNA would already be in YSEQ's database for future testing. I think the cost at YSEQ went down a few dollars recently, but took a quick look and could not find their pricing...
??
? If you have questions about any of this, please feel free to contact me.

Kevin

This thread continues a discussion about Roger Daniel which was started in a thread by David Garner on 30 January 2020.

I am attaching a hypothetical tree for descendants of Roger Daniel supplied in that thread by Jack Danel.

This would be? good place to start documenting some primary record evidence so future researchers can locate it.

Picking up from that other thread....

It would be helpful if the attached chart in some way showed how far back each line is proved using primary record evidence from the most recent descendant at the bottom of each line to the earliest proved ancestor.

It would also be helpful when a statement is made whether there is primary record evidence to support it. For instance, what primary record proves this:

"I have Roger IV dying in Granville County in 1680. There were many Rogers: V, VI, VII, and yet another who was son of John son of Roger IV."

• What primary record proves a Roger Daniel died in Granville County (NC?) in 1680? (Granville County, NC was not created until 1746...)
• What primary record proves that a Roger Daniel who died in Granville County (?) in 1680 was "Roger Daniel IV"?

Thanks,

Kevin

"Warwick County, VA where Roger Daniel resided"

I have Roger IV dying in Granville County in 1680. There were many Rogers: V, VI, VII, and yet another who was son of John son of Roger IV.

Thanks Jack. I am spinning this off into a new message thread so we can stop hijacking David's thread and it will be easier for future researchers to find this information.

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"I am confused, is Woodson M. Daniel's ancestor claimed to be William Daniel of Middlesex, VA or Roger Daniel of Warick, VA?"

Not Roger directly, but we don't know. There may be more than one Woodson M Daniel. Woodson was a very popular name in the family/families.

The find-a-grave Woodson is son of James Jenkins Daniel, GGGS of Roger.

--------------------------

Also: I overstated the situation with A11115. There are non-Daniels in the US who carry that SNP. But so far as I know, all of the A11115+ Daniels claim descent from Roger.

Y DNA cannot be used in this fashion.

Y DNA cannot prove a connection to Roger Daniel if his Y DNA is not proved. What this group could prove at the time the chart was published was, as I recall, that several men could be traced back to North Carolina, I think, in the mid 1700s and their descendants shared their Y DNA. No one could make a jump back to Virginia, using primary records, though, much less to Warwick County, VA where Roger Daniel resided. I don't recall all of the details since the chart does not seem to be available any more. I think I made a copy but it is buried in my files.

There was another group about the same time which was in the same boat trying to claim ancestry from the John Daniels of York County, VA.

Y DNA evidence must be supported by primary records to establish ancestry. In some cases a well reasoned argument based on primary records where absolute proof does not exist may be used, but that must be carefully constructed.

I am confused, is Woodson M. Daniel's ancestor claimed to be William Daniel of Middlesex, VA or Roger Daniel of Warick, VA?

Kevin

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I believe you are correct that no primary records exist, therefore we have only DNA to use so we must make the best of it.

Primary records are no more trustworthy than DNA since NPEs of all types are mostly ignored. In my own family we have two instances in which the primary records were actual forgeries - one that went undetected for almost a century.

The A11115 is not exclusive to Roger Daniel, but dates back 1000 years. However, all known occurrences in the US claim descent from Roger, unless there are some I do not know about - certainly possible.

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 12:17 PM, Jack Danel wrote:




The farther back the ancestry goes from Woodson Daniel in this FamilySearch tree, the more problematic it becomes. It was proved by primary record research long ago that William Daniel of Middlesex County, VA did not marry Dorothy Forth and was not connected to the Daniel family of Over Tabley or the Chesire Daniels. At this point, William Daniel of Middlesex County, Va is the brick wall for this Daniel line.

Pam Miller is the expert on these Middlesex Daniels, which do not connect at all to Roger Daniel. She has a web site:

http://pamiller.net/genealogy/index.htm

"I guess I should have clarified. I was born David Daniel. My last name was changed when I was adopted by my stepfather as a child. So that’s where Garner comes from. I am descended in an unbroken male line from Woodson M Daniel. It’s beyond him that I would like to verify.? "


In that case, if no one who can prove descent from Woodson M. Daniel has taken a Y DNA test, you would be a good candidate. If that is the case, then I recommend joining the Daniel DNA Project and taking the 37 marker test, to start:



How you would proceed from there would depend on what your results are.

First, however, I would confirm whether or not any proved descendants of Woodson have taken a Y DNA test.

Kevin

"Find-a-grave Woodson is a descendant of Roger IV Daniel, the progenitor of a fairly well tested lineage that is identified by the A11115. If you think he is yours, I have more info."

As far as I am aware, no one can prove descent from Roger Daniel in primary records. There was a DNA based descendency chart which was circulated a few years ago which claimed to show several lines connected to Roger Daniel via Y DNA but there was a 2-3 generation gap in primary record evidence between Roger Daniel and ancestors claimed to descend from Roger Daniel by their living descendants. To prove a connection to an ancestor there must first be primary record evidence to establish the identity of descendants of that ancestor and then the DNA of an ancestor and of the descendants of that ancestor can be established. At the time the chart was being posted, no one I corresponded with could produce any primary record evidence of a connection. Has someone been able to prove descent from Roger Daniel in primary records?

Kevin

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If you think your Woodson is the same as the find-a-grave Woodson, there is a cheap and easy way to check. You would get an SNP A11115 test from Yseq.org for about $20.

If they are not the same, then you would start by getting a 37 marker test from FTDNA or another organization that provides Y market results.

Find-a-grave Woodson is a descendant of Roger IV Daniel, the progenitor of a fairly well tested lineage that is identified by the A11115. If you think he is yours, I have more info.