Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
10/28/61 Placed on vacant standard gauge turn with E. Madorin @ 2:00 AM.
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10/28/61 MVT, power GP7 5102, local freight rate, marked on Alamosa 3:00 PM, 25" tying up, marked off Alamosa 10:15 PM, on duty 7:15, paid $20.80 for 105 miles, E. Madorin engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1960s
12/7/61 Plattsburg yard, power 4096, yard-local freight rate, marked on Plattsburg 11:00 PM, marked off Plattsburg 7:00 AM, on duty 8:00, paid $22.56 for 100 miles, H.O. Pecotte engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1940's
Thank you very much Gordon. I appreciate all the information you share with us all.
I miss him too.
Ed
On Thursday, September 26, 2024 at 12:47:51 AM EDT, Gordon Davids via groups.io <g.davids@...> wrote:
I would like to make a few points on the background here. First, about local freight service on the Susquehanna Division in the 1950's through the 1970's. It appears that Dick worked a local freight job Oneonta to Cooperstown and return, on duty 5:25.?
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That does not seem to be economical, and so when I was on the D&H between 1966 and 1972, the Cooperstown Branch was served three times per week by SU-5, a local job out of Oneonta that worked to Cobleskill 5 days per week, and went to Cooperstown if needed on Mon, Wed and Fri.
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SU-10 worked the five week days, home terminal Colonie, between Kenwood and Cobleskill including the cement plant at Howes Cave. Terminal was later changed to Mohawk, with work on the Albany Main as needed. Before my time another job from Colonie worked to Cherry Valley, laid over night, and returned the next day.
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South of Oneonta SU-2 worked out of Oneonta to Windsor and return five week days. Windsor was on the Penn Division but local work north of Jefferson Jct. belonged to the A&S. Local work between Jeff Jct and Carbondale belonged to Erie crews. Even after the D&H bought the Jefferson Branch from the Erie, the D&H did not assume respnsibility for the local service. the Erie remained responsible for the statons and local freight service. The very thin local traffic between Nineveh and Binghamton was handled by through freight trains.
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On a personal note, I knew of Dick Cooper long before I first met him. He had been a locomotive fireman on the New York Central Catskill Mountain Branch, a seniority district for enginemen and firemen, and was furloughed in 1948 when it was dieselized. I knew all of the train and engine crews on the old U&D and they spoke highly of Dick. They told me of his ¡°Coast-to-Coast¡± nickname from his summer work on the Rio Grande firing the narrow gauge steam power.
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After that time on the NYC Dick worked on the D&H as a laborer in the Oneonta engine house and later became a locomotive fireman on the D&H Susquehanna Division. In short, he was furloughed several times for long periods then and afterward, but he always came back to the railroad. It was in his blood, and he was dedicated.?
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I finally met Dick in person in 1966 when I was the Track Supervisor on the D&H at Plattsburgh and he was working the firemans¡¯ extra board at Rouses Point. He had long ago qualified as a locomotive engineer on the D&H and he caught many assignments in that role. He was qualified on almost everything everywhere between Oneonta and Montreal.?
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I was making some of my track inspections by riding locomotives to find rough spots and to work with the engine crews who knew what was happening out there. Dick was a big help to me on that, and we hit it off right away. He gave me a collection of D&H employee time tables dating back to 1932 that I still have. They make me look much smarter than I really am.?
?
I miss Dick. I appreciate Ed preserving his memory and giving us an opportunity to see the details of how a great railroad operated in our day.
-- Ed Cox
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1940's
I would like to make a few points on the background here. First, about local freight service on the Susquehanna Division in the 1950's through the 1970's. It appears that Dick worked a local freight job Oneonta to Cooperstown and return, on duty 5:25.?
?
That does not seem to be economical, and so when I was on the D&H between 1966 and 1972, the Cooperstown Branch was served three times per week by SU-5, a local job out of Oneonta that worked to Cobleskill 5 days per week, and went to Cooperstown if needed on Mon, Wed and Fri.
?
SU-10 worked the five week days, home terminal Colonie, between Kenwood and Cobleskill including the cement plant at Howes Cave. Terminal was later changed to Mohawk, with work on the Albany Main as needed. Before my time another job from Colonie worked to Cherry Valley, laid over night, and returned the next day.
?
South of Oneonta SU-2 worked out of Oneonta to Windsor and return five week days. Windsor was on the Penn Division but local work north of Jefferson Jct. belonged to the A&S. Local work between Jeff Jct and Carbondale belonged to Erie crews. Even after the D&H bought the Jefferson Branch from the Erie, the D&H did not assume respnsibility for the local service. the Erie remained responsible for the statons and local freight service. The very thin local traffic between Nineveh and Binghamton was handled by through freight trains.
?
On a personal note, I knew of Dick Cooper long before I first met him. He had been a locomotive fireman on the New York Central Catskill Mountain Branch, a seniority district for enginemen and firemen, and was furloughed in 1948 when it was dieselized. I knew all of the train and engine crews on the old U&D and they spoke highly of Dick. They told me of his ¡°Coast-to-Coast¡± nickname from his summer work on the Rio Grande firing the narrow gauge steam power.
?
After that time on the NYC Dick worked on the D&H as a laborer in the Oneonta engine house and later became a locomotive fireman on the D&H Susquehanna Division. In short, he was furloughed several times for long periods then and afterward, but he always came back to the railroad. It was in his blood, and he was dedicated.?
?
I finally met Dick in person in 1966 when I was the Track Supervisor on the D&H at Plattsburgh and he was working the firemans¡¯ extra board at Rouses Point. He had long ago qualified as a locomotive engineer on the D&H and he caught many assignments in that role. He was qualified on almost everything everywhere between Oneonta and Montreal.?
?
I was making some of my track inspections by riding locomotives to find rough spots and to work with the engine crews who knew what was happening out there. Dick was a big help to me on that, and we hit it off right away. He gave me a collection of D&H employee time tables dating back to 1932 that I still have. They make me look much smarter than I really am.?
?
I miss Dick. I appreciate Ed preserving his memory and giving us an opportunity to see the details of how a great railroad operated in our day.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1950s
4/20/53 Layed in.
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4/21/53 Mohawk yard, power 3010, yard-local freight rate, marked on Mohawk 6:30 AM, marked off Mohawk 2:30 PM, on duty 8:00, paid $15.19 for 100 miles, Young engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1940's
1/6/49 Layed in.
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1/7/49 Cooperstown branch, power 954, local freight rate, marked on Oneonta 9:30 AM, marked off Oneonta 2:55 PM, on duty 5:25, paid $11.48 for 100 miles, Odell engineer, Cooper fireman.
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1/8/49 Furloughed and did not work in the railroad industry January 1949 until March 1951.
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The diesels put him out of work for the second time.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - Guilford Error
10/14/85 RPPY, power B&M 205-D&H 7404-B&M 312, through freight rate, marked on Rouses Point 6:30 PM, train to Mohawk, taxi to Mechanicville, marked off Mechanicville 3:20 AM, on duty 8:50, paid $197.37 for 190 miles, Cooper engineer, no fireman, T. Heller conductor.
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Rutland RWY Rouses Point <> Alburg, VT Trestle/Bridge Fire
Hey, Guys,
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My apologies to those who might think I'm posting Off Topic. You could literally see the smoke from this incident from the D&H, so I'm figuring I can squeeze it in.
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I'm making some good progress on my D&H Champlain Division HO Layout which will include Rouses Point, NY. This will also include a very abbreviated version of Rutland's Trestle and Swing Bridge across Lake Champlain.
I've been doing a lot of researching, as you'd expect, for such a scratch-building project. This inquiry is primarily historical in nature and has produced much frustration, until my "aha" moment when I decided to ask you guys:
Having been born in 1957 I remember the Rutland shutting down and the bridge/trestle sitting fallow for years after that. At some point in the sixties, I remember the structure catching fire and at least a third of it being destroyed down to the water line. As we all know, very little of of that famous engineering marvel remains to this day.
I need/would like to know:
1) What date the fire occurred.
2) How much was actually destroyed by the fire.
3) When were the rails taken up from it.
4) Did the swing bridge survive the fire?
5) When the swing bridge and associated structure were removed.
Finally, any photographs, newspaper articles or other media sources covering the information I'm looking for will be greatly appreciated.
Sincere Best Regards,
?
Rick Shivik
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1980s
6/24/80 RW-6, power CR GP38-2 8235-D&H 7619, through freight rate, marked on Oneonta 7:00 PM, to Carey Ave., 30" final terminal delay, marked off Hudson 4:30 AM, on duty 9:30, paid $123087 for 150 miles, Cooper engineer, no fireman, Tommy Flynn conductor.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1970s
5/24/71 RW-6, power 602-EL GP35 2556-D&H 709-606, through freight rate, marked on Whitehall 2:00 AM, picked up 5004 @ MX, gave 5004 to OA-1 @ WH, marked off Oneonta 8:30 AM, on duty 6:30, paid $50.28 for 155 miles, Stan Chapman engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1969
5/5/69 Rouses Point yard, power 4022, yard rate, marked on Rouses Point 3:00 PM, marked off Rouses Point 12:45 AM, on duty 9:45, paid $58.14 for 202 miles, Cooper emergency engineer, K.C. Peterson fireman, D,J, Castine conductor.
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1950s
More great information.
Thanks again Gordon.
Ed
On Thursday, September 19, 2024 at 01:50:08 PM EDT, Gordon Davids via groups.io <g.davids@...> wrote:
D&H Dimension Loads
Moving dimension and heavy loads for GE on the D&H was always an interesting challenge. GE Schenectady had some cars with the highest maximum gross weight in the country. One that I remember in particular was the GEX 80003, a depressed-center flat car with forty wheels and a capacity of one-million pounds on a 40-foot center platform. It had a hydraulic system that would permit the load to be shifted slightly for low-speed movement past a tight restriction.
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Another car, GEX 80001, was a ¡°Schnable¡± car that was two sections that could be joined together for light movement, and then separated to connect directly to a steam turbine that was designed to serve as the actual center of the car. The turbine was pinned directly to the car at four corners at each end, in a horizontal plane. GE sold that car around 1975.
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When GE began designing a large steam turbine, they had our clearance diagrams for a guide. If they wanted to exceed the clearance diagram, they would contact us with a ¡°can you handle¡± request. We could often find a way to remove a small clearance restriction and negotiate the cost with GE. They were usually very happy to assume the cost when the turbine really needed that excess dimension, knowing that once that load was cleared, we would be able to handle the same loads for them later.
?
The D&H south of Schenectady had some of the best clearances and bridge capacities of any eastern railroad, in conjunction with the former Erie lines. Those routes were originally built to six-foot gauge, and double track north of Nineveh Junction. Binghamton Tunnel was a clearance restriction, so the dimension loads going to the Erie were interchanged at Jefferson Jct on the Penn Division. The Penn Division had good clearances to the PRR at Buttonwood, as well.
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I remember clearing one load on a different long D&H flat car to PRR at Buttonwood. Our clearance diagrams for planning had detailed cross-sections showing the tightest obstructions at the point, and any track curvature to account for center or end swing-out on curves. Our diagram did not indicate a curve that began about fifty feet beyond the portal of a through-truss bridge on the Wilkes-Barre Connecting Railroad.?
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The turbine scraped the end post of the bridge. We set the car aside at Buttonwood, and I went down with a GE engineer to look at it. He had a can of gray spray paint that he used that to ¡°repair¡± the turbine.? Nothing more was said beyond ¡°Thank You!¡± We did update the clearance diagrams to account for the longer cars.
-- Ed Cox
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1950s
D&H Dimension Loads
Moving dimension and heavy loads for GE on the D&H was always an interesting challenge. GE Schenectady had some cars with the highest maximum gross weight in the country. One that I remember in particular was the GEX 80003, a depressed-center flat car with forty wheels and a capacity of one-million pounds on a 40-foot center platform. It had a hydraulic system that would permit the load to be shifted slightly for low-speed movement past a tight restriction.
?
Another car, GEX 80001, was a ¡°Schnable¡± car that was two sections that could be joined together for light movement, and then separated to connect directly to a steam turbine that was designed to serve as the actual center of the car. The turbine was pinned directly to the car at four corners at each end, in a horizontal plane. GE sold that car around 1975.
?
When GE began designing a large steam turbine, they had our clearance diagrams for a guide. If they wanted to exceed the clearance diagram, they would contact us with a ¡°can you handle¡± request. We could often find a way to remove a small clearance restriction and negotiate the cost with GE. They were usually very happy to assume the cost when the turbine really needed that excess dimension, knowing that once that load was cleared, we would be able to handle the same loads for them later.
?
The D&H south of Schenectady had some of the best clearances and bridge capacities of any eastern railroad, in conjunction with the former Erie lines. Those routes were originally built to six-foot gauge, and double track north of Nineveh Junction. Binghamton Tunnel was a clearance restriction, so the dimension loads going to the Erie were interchanged at Jefferson Jct on the Penn Division. The Penn Division had good clearances to the PRR at Buttonwood, as well.
?
I remember clearing one load on a different long D&H flat car to PRR at Buttonwood. Our clearance diagrams for planning had detailed cross-sections showing the tightest obstructions at the point, and any track curvature to account for center or end swing-out on curves. Our diagram did not indicate a curve that began about fifty feet beyond the portal of a through-truss bridge on the Wilkes-Barre Connecting Railroad.?
?
The turbine scraped the end post of the bridge. We set the car aside at Buttonwood, and I went down with a GE engineer to look at it. He had a can of gray spray paint that he used that to ¡°repair¡± the turbine.? Nothing more was said beyond ¡°Thank You!¡± We did update the clearance diagrams to account for the longer cars.
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Dick Cooper Time Book - 1962
6/7/62 SC19, power 4111-4099, local freight rate, marked on Whitehall 9:45 AM, marked off Rouses Point 4:30 PM, on duty 6:45, paid $23.37 for 115 miles, A. Gennette engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
Thanks Ed.? Always interesting to know how they did things in different areas.? In my career it has been mostly under 'system' seniority.
Al,
I believe it was all determined by seniority divisions, just like on the D&H. One thing that some people forget is, narrow gage and standard track was present together in some, if not all divisions, as well as dual gauge track.
Dad preferred working the narrow gauge whenever possible.
Ed
On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 05:18:26 PM EDT, Al Whalen < 1whalen62@...> wrote:
Ed, It appears from the entries that your Dad was able to work on the narrow-guage?and the standard guage?portions of the Rio Grande.? Do you know if this was common practice for most employees in that region?
Al W. 10/27/61 Antonito turn, power GP7 5104, local freight rate, marked on Alamosa 3:15 PM, marked off Alamosa 1:35 AM, on duty 10:20, paid $28.53 for 144 miles, C.T. Sisemore engineer, Cooper fireman.
--
Ed Cox
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
Al,
I believe it was all determined by seniority divisions, just like on the D&H. One thing that some people forget is, narrow gage and standard track was present together in some, if not all divisions, as well as dual gauge track.
Dad preferred working the narrow gauge whenever possible.
Ed
On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 at 05:18:26 PM EDT, Al Whalen <1whalen62@...> wrote:
Ed, It appears from the entries that your Dad was able to work on the narrow-guage?and the standard guage?portions of the Rio Grande.? Do you know if this was common practice for most employees in that region?
Al W.
10/27/61 Antonito turn, power GP7 5104, local freight rate, marked on Alamosa 3:15 PM, marked off Alamosa 1:35 AM, on duty 10:20, paid $28.53 for 144 miles, C.T. Sisemore engineer, Cooper fireman.
--
Ed Cox
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
Ed, It appears from the entries that your Dad was able to work on the narrow-guage?and the standard guage?portions of the Rio Grande.? Do you know if this was common practice for most employees in that region?
Al W.
10/27/61 Antonito turn, power GP7 5104, local freight rate, marked on Alamosa 3:15 PM, marked off Alamosa 1:35 AM, on duty 10:20, paid $28.53 for 144 miles, C.T. Sisemore engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1950s
Thank you, Gordon.? I like to compare the operations on the REAL D&H to my experiences on the same territory post-2000 under CP.
Al W.
On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 at 08:08:26 PM EDT, Gordon Davids via <g.davids= [email protected]> wrote:
Just guessing. GEX-4 and RW-2 or RW-4 might have been combined at Mohawk or Schenectady and separated somewhere south of Richmondville because of routing restrictions to the south. Some heavy or dimension cars required special routing for clearance or weight restrictions. Some of those restrictions would appear odd unless you understood the reason. For instance, even though track centers (distance between adjacent tracks) were standardized, very long cars had center or end overhangs on curves so that they could not meet or pass another train alongside in that curve. Some curves at that time had as much as 6 or 7 inches superelevation and cars with a high center of gravity could only be operated at a minimum speed to avoid overturning to the low side, or at slower speed to avoid overturning to the high side. Those restrictions probably did not apply north of Richmondville.
--
Ed Cox
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Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
10/27/61 Antonito turn, power GP7 5104, local freight rate, marked on Alamosa 3:15 PM, marked off Alamosa 1:35 AM, on duty 10:20, paid $28.53 for 144 miles, C.T. Sisemore engineer, Cooper fireman.
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - 1950s
On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 at 08:08:26 PM EDT, Gordon Davids via groups.io <g.davids@...> wrote:
Just guessing. GEX-4 and RW-2 or RW-4 might have been combined at Mohawk or Schenectady and separated somewhere south of Richmondville because of routing restrictions to the south. Some heavy or dimension cars required special routing for clearance or weight restrictions. Some of those restrictions would appear odd unless you understood the reason. For instance, even though track centers (distance between adjacent tracks) were standardized, very long cars had center or end overhangs on curves so that they could not meet or pass another train alongside in that curve. Some curves at that time had as much as 6 or 7 inches superelevation and cars with a high center of gravity could only be operated at a minimum speed to avoid overturning to the low side, or at slower speed to avoid overturning to the high side. Those restrictions probably did not apply north of Richmondville.
-- Ed Cox
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Ed Cox