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Dick Cooper Time Book - Guilford Error
10/2/85 CXOI, power B&M 350-D&H 7405-B&M 351, through freight, marked on Rouses Point 10:00 PM, 15" premium time, cut 351 and picked up 2920-412 @ Ft. Edward, 25" switching Ft. Edward, train to Mohawk, taxi to Mechanicville, marked off Mechanicville 9:15 AM, on duty 11:15, paid $376.16 for 359 miles, Cooper engineer, no fireman, T. Heller conductor. |
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Re: C-420 horns
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info. Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips <mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed, It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn. Bill Phillips On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 11:38?AM Ed Cox via <edcox13=[email protected]> wrote:
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Ed Cox |
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
Thanks again Gordon. Ed
On Sunday, July 21, 2024 at 05:30:32 PM EDT, Gordon Davids via groups.io <g.davids@...> wrote:
I can think of reasons for running two L-1's to Watertown, with one dead-in-train with an engine watchman. First, the only ways to dead-head a steam locomotive were to keep a head of steam for lubrication of the cylinders, or dropping the rods.
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In 1948 the heaviest traffic south of Watertown was southward iron ore from Benson Mines via Philadelphia (NY) to Belle Isle and then Pittsburgh. The freight traffic to Montreal was still moving on the Adirondack Division from Utica via Malone. One L-1 could handle all the empty hoppers to Watertown for the next day turn, but they might need two L-1's with two trains to handle the next-day loads going south.
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One of the indicators of operating efficiency on a railroad division was "gross ton miles per train hour." By doubling all of the empties into one train, they could "double" that efficiency for the books, and then move two loaded trains of half that length south to Dewitt or, more likely, to Belle Isle, west of Dewitt. The St. Lawrence Division to Watertown was not a mountain railroad, but it was not the "Water-level Route," either. So sending the second locomotive to Watertown dead-in-train with only a fireman-attendant to maintain steam and lubrication would have made sense at the time.
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-- Ed Cox |
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
Dave, Very interesting info on the coal trains in the area. I have little knowledge of what used to happen up that way then or now. I just know, there is a lot less moving on the rails then there was in the past. You would think we would back revert to the rails to save on the use of oil in all those trucks doing the job now and the pollution they create. Not a political statement. Just a fact. Have a great weekend. Ed
On Friday, July 19, 2024 at 10:13:02 AM EDT, Dave Simmons via groups.io <bdsimm7@...> wrote:
Ed -- ? ? Thanks for this explanation. ?So it really wasn't a double header after all! ?This way of moving power around would seem to be the best way economically! ? ? ?NYC did use "doubleheaders" to move coal from PA via Corning, Lyons, DeWitt, and Richland to Oswego when I was growing us there in the 1950s. ?Sometimes, the local switcher which had gone out to the East end of town earlier in the day, would return on the front of an incoming coal train, running backwards and sometimes with a few cars in between. ?Oh, for a camera to record all that! ?Plus the DL&W which still had steam and the NYO&W which was all diesel. ? ? ? ? ?The coal was transferred from the NYC to the DL&W in the West Yard where they were side-by-side. ?The DL&W would take it down in 10-12 car trains to the coal dock in the harbor to be shipped on to Canada, probably to Kingston, ON. ? ? ? ? ? Meanwhile, the "Fontana", would bring PA coal from Sodus Point at the end of the PRR's Elmira Branch, to Oswego to the Niagara-Mohawk Power Plant. ?There, at one time, it was reputed to have the largest coal pile in the USA! ?That would be in the fall, as the harbor was ice-blocked during the winter.? ? ? ? ? ?There is a little bit of history for you! Dave Simmons?
On Friday, July 19, 2024, 05:39:17 AM EDT, Ed Cox via groups.io <edcox13@...> wrote:
Good morning Dave, It was probably only a double header going north with the 2582 being the power in the lead with an engineer and fireman and the 2751 being towed under steam with only Dad as the "engine watch". The reason for Dad being on board the 2751 was to monitor and maintain the fire and water. He would have been an extra fireman on the 2785 going south. Being paid the "local freight rate" means they picked up or dropped off cars at a minimum of three different places along the way. Less then that would warrant the "through freight rate" which was less money. I don't believe double heading was necessary. The 2751 was under steam but really only along for the ride. I imagine Watertown was short of power and they were getting more power there as cheaply as possible. Being towed and "watched" only required paying a fireman. Running it lite to Watertown would have also required paying an engineer up and back. I hope this all hepls. Ed
On Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 09:05:05 AM EDT, Dave Simmons via groups.io <bdsimm7@...> wrote:
Ed -- ? ? ? ? ?This is interesting! ? This must have been a double-header in both directions. ?Being paid at the local freight rate, does that mean that they worked switching at various places along the way? ?Pulaski? ?Richland at the Rome line? ?Adams? ?I suspect you can only guess as your Dad wrote down nothing more. ? ? ? ? ? ?Also, was he "on watch" on the 2nd engine going north, then fireman "assistant" on the lead engine going south? ?Being on watch must mean watching the gauges, etc., and/or watching out the left side of the cab. ?I'm presuming he 2nd engine would have an engineer and fireman. ?? ? ? ?They would have gone by what I can "hear" now from my back yard. ?I can't see anything any more (except in winter) because of the foliage. ?The yard and engine facilities were a little further north then than they are now. ? ? I wonder why double-heading was necessary. ?The line seems pretty flat and level. ?Probably there are hills that don't readily appear. Dave ?? Dave ? ?
On Thursday, July 18, 2024, 07:15:07 AM EDT, Ed Cox via groups.io <edcox13@...> wrote:
10/8/48 B1Wx/DWx, power Alco class L-1b 4-8-2 2582 on B1Wx, Alco class L-2a 4-8-2 2785 on DWx, local freight rate, marked on DeWitt 11:45 AM, Cooper engine watch on Alco class L-2a 4-8-2 2751 on train B1Wx, marked off DeWitt 2:15 AM, on duty 14:30, paid $25.22 for 222 miles, S. Isham engineer, Cooper engine watch/fireman.
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This was a turn job with B1Wx going north to Watertown and DWx going south back to DeWitt. Dad would have been assigned the engine watch on the 2751 going north. He probably assisted the fireman on the 2785 going south.
-- Ed Cox -- Ed Cox |
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Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
Good morning Dave, It was probably only a double header going north with the 2582 being the power in the lead with an engineer and fireman and the 2751 being towed under steam with only Dad as the "engine watch". The reason for Dad being on board the 2751 was to monitor and maintain the fire and water. He would have been an extra fireman on the 2785 going south. Being paid the "local freight rate" means they picked up or dropped off cars at a minimum of three different places along the way. Less then that would warrant the "through freight rate" which was less money. I don't believe double heading was necessary. The 2751 was under steam but really only along for the ride. I imagine Watertown was short of power and they were getting more power there as cheaply as possible. Being towed and "watched" only required paying a fireman. Running it lite to Watertown would have also required paying an engineer up and back. I hope this all hepls. Ed
On Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 09:05:05 AM EDT, Dave Simmons via groups.io <bdsimm7@...> wrote:
Ed -- ? ? ? ? ?This is interesting! ? This must have been a double-header in both directions. ?Being paid at the local freight rate, does that mean that they worked switching at various places along the way? ?Pulaski? ?Richland at the Rome line? ?Adams? ?I suspect you can only guess as your Dad wrote down nothing more. ? ? ? ? ? ?Also, was he "on watch" on the 2nd engine going north, then fireman "assistant" on the lead engine going south? ?Being on watch must mean watching the gauges, etc., and/or watching out the left side of the cab. ?I'm presuming he 2nd engine would have an engineer and fireman. ?? ? ? ?They would have gone by what I can "hear" now from my back yard. ?I can't see anything any more (except in winter) because of the foliage. ?The yard and engine facilities were a little further north then than they are now. ? ? I wonder why double-heading was necessary. ?The line seems pretty flat and level. ?Probably there are hills that don't readily appear. Dave ?? Dave ? ?
On Thursday, July 18, 2024, 07:15:07 AM EDT, Ed Cox via groups.io <edcox13@...> wrote:
10/8/48 B1Wx/DWx, power Alco class L-1b 4-8-2 2582 on B1Wx, Alco class L-2a 4-8-2 2785 on DWx, local freight rate, marked on DeWitt 11:45 AM, Cooper engine watch on Alco class L-2a 4-8-2 2751 on train B1Wx, marked off DeWitt 2:15 AM, on duty 14:30, paid $25.22 for 222 miles, S. Isham engineer, Cooper engine watch/fireman.
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This was a turn job with B1Wx going north to Watertown and DWx going south back to DeWitt. Dad would have been assigned the engine watch on the 2751 going north. He probably assisted the fireman on the 2785 going south.
-- Ed Cox |
Ed Cox