Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
Dave,
I really have no idea why it took so long to make the trip. It's not likely they had to wait for the engines to be ready as it was usual for everything to have been ready for the road crew to get on, oil things up, get the steam pressure up, take a brake test and go. I suspect they were put "in the hole" a few times, waiting for traffic to clear.
I really enjoy sharing the info. Although I don't see many responses to what I post. I am always encouraged to keep them coming.
Have a great week.
Ed
On Sunday, July 28, 2024 at 06:42:32 PM EDT, Dave Simmons via groups.io <bdsimm7@...> wrote:
Ed --
? ? Even in the steam days, it wouldn't have taken 12 hours 10 minutes to get from DeWitt to Watertown! ?So much of that time was in DeWitt Yard. ?Did it take a lot more time to get the steam locos prepared to get out of the yard and on to the line than it does now with diesels? ?They probably had to wait somewhere for south-bounds. ?
? ? I wonder what percentage of the traffic south from Watertown to Syracuse (they probably bypassed DeWitt) was Benson Mines ore traffic, and what was everything else. ?I am glad to hear that most of the Canadian traffic went via Utica and the Adirondack Division.
? ? Thanks for all your information, D&H and NYC, as well as D&RGW NG.
Dave Simmons
10/9/48 Layed in.
?
10/10/48 B1Wx, engine watch on Alco class L-2d 4-8-2 2967, train power Alco class L-2c 4-8-2 2895, through freight rate, marked on DeWitt 11:30 AM, marked off Watertown 12:10 AM, on duty 12:40, paid $20.50 for 187 miles, Kellogg engineer, Cooper engine watch.
-- Ed Cox
|
Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
Ed --
? ? Even in the steam days, it wouldn't have taken 12 hours 10 minutes to get from DeWitt to Watertown! ?So much of that time was in DeWitt Yard. ?Did it take a lot more time to get the steam locos prepared to get out of the yard and on to the line than it does now with diesels? ?They probably had to wait somewhere for south-bounds. ?
? ? I wonder what percentage of the traffic south from Watertown to Syracuse (they probably bypassed DeWitt) was Benson Mines ore traffic, and what was everything else. ?I am glad to hear that most of the Canadian traffic went via Utica and the Adirondack Division.
? ? Thanks for all your information, D&H and NYC, as well as D&RGW NG.
Dave Simmons
10/9/48 Layed in.
?
10/10/48 B1Wx, engine watch on Alco class L-2d 4-8-2 2967, train power Alco class L-2c 4-8-2 2895, through freight rate, marked on DeWitt 11:30 AM, marked off Watertown 12:10 AM, on duty 12:40, paid $20.50 for 187 miles, Kellogg engineer, Cooper engine watch.
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
10/9/48 Layed in.
?
10/10/48 B1Wx, engine watch on Alco class L-2d 4-8-2 2967, train power Alco class L-2c 4-8-2 2895, through freight rate, marked on DeWitt 11:30 AM, marked off Watertown 12:10 AM, on duty 12:40, paid $20.50 for 187 miles, Kellogg engineer, Cooper engine watch.
|
On Saturday, July 27, 2024 at 09:46:49 AM EDT, Bill Phillips <mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
The complete link for all who may be interested.?
Bill Phillips
On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 7:43?AM Bill Phillips via <mrbill.phil= [email protected]> wrote: Go to the anthracite roads historical society website and find the link for Lehigh Valley modelling. There is a complete section on horns used by the LV by model and sometimes by road number. My phone isn't cooperating so I am unable to paste the link. When I am near a computer I'll add it on this thread.
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info.
Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips < mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
--
Ed Cox
--
Ed Cox
|
For those who rely on this list - It appears that the original horns for LV C420 were Nathan P2RI although I have a note that indicates 408 originally had? a Nathan M3R1. I tend to doubt that that is the?case as I believe the LV 420's were built in a single lot and would not have different?equipment specifications.??
I believe they were all conveyed to the D&H with their origin horns. From the photographic research I have done it seems that the D&H started converting C420's to M3RT1's as early as 1977 (414). It looks like most of the rest were changed in the 1980-1981 time frame. Maybe the?D&H salvaged the horns from retired RS3's, but this is pure speculation on my part.
Bill Phillips
On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 7:43?AM Bill Phillips via <mrbill.phil= [email protected]> wrote: Go to the anthracite roads historical society website and find the link for Lehigh Valley modelling. There is a complete section on horns used by the LV by model and sometimes by road number. My phone isn't cooperating so I am unable to paste the link. When I am near a computer I'll add it on this thread.
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info.
Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips < mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
--
Ed Cox
|
The complete link for all who may be interested.?
Bill Phillips
On Sat, Jul 27, 2024 at 7:43?AM Bill Phillips via <mrbill.phil= [email protected]> wrote: Go to the anthracite roads historical society website and find the link for Lehigh Valley modelling. There is a complete section on horns used by the LV by model and sometimes by road number. My phone isn't cooperating so I am unable to paste the link. When I am near a computer I'll add it on this thread.
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info.
Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips < mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
--
Ed Cox
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - Guilford Error
10/2/85 CXOI, power B&M 350-D&H 7405-B&M 351, through freight, marked on Rouses Point 10:00 PM, 15" premium time, cut 351 and picked up 2920-412 @ Ft. Edward, 25" switching Ft. Edward, train to Mohawk, taxi to Mechanicville, marked off Mechanicville 9:15 AM, on duty 11:15, paid $376.16 for 359 miles, Cooper engineer, no fireman, T. Heller conductor.
|
Thanks again Bill. It's a big help for my book.
?
Ed
|
Go to the anthracite roads historical society website and find the link for Lehigh Valley modelling. There is a complete section on horns used by the LV by model and sometimes by road number. My phone isn't cooperating so I am unable to paste the link. When I am near a computer I'll add it on this thread.
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info.
Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips < mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
--
Ed Cox
|
Thanks Bill. That's a big help. I thought so, but wasn't sure. Now I just need the ex-LV C-420 horn info.
Ed
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 03:20:14 PM EDT, Bill Phillips <mrbill.phil@...> wrote:
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips
Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
--
Ed Cox
|
Ed,
It had an M3RT-1 when it was on the D&H. I checked in "Lehigh & Hudson River A Link in a Great Chain" by Robert Yanosey and all the photographic evidence points to them being delivered with M3RT1. There is a picture of #21 in 1963 with the M3RT1. I saw no pictures with a different horn.
Bill Phillips
Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
|
Does anyone know what type of horn came on the ex-L&HR C-420 or the original 2 chime horns delivered on the ex-LV C-420's? I know some were converted to Nathan M-3R-T1s in the 80's.
?
Thanks
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1980s
6/18/80 RW6, power CR GP38-2 8237-D&H 7402-7607, through freight rate, marked on Oneonta 11:30 PM, outlawed @ SC cabin, marked off Hudson 12:10 PM, on duty 12:40, paid $137.95 for 165 miles, Cooper engineer, no fireman, Tommy Flynn conductor.
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1970s
5/16/71 RW6, power 754-709-704, through freight rate, marked on Whitehall 12:45 AM, marked off Oneonta 7:15 AM, on duty 6:30, paid $39.78 for 130 miles, Stan Chapman engineer, Cooper fireman.
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1969
4/24/69 Rouses Point yard, power 4075, yard rate, marked on Rouses Point 11:00 PM, marked off Rouses Point 7:00 AM, on duty 8:00, paid 28.04 for 100 miles, T.T. Abbott engineer, Cooper fireman.
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1962
5/19/62 SC19, power 5003-5011-4105, local freight rate, marked on Whitehall 10:30 AM, cut 4105 & picked up 4126 @ Plattsburg, marked off Rouses Point 6:00 PM, on duty 7:30, paid $26.82 for 127 miles, A. Gennette engineer, Cooper fireman.
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - Rio Grande
10/20/61 2CT1, power narrow gauge class K-36 2-8-2 486, local freight rate, marked on Chama 10 AM, 3:05 switching, marked off Chama 7:00 PM, on duty 9:00, paid $29.12 for 147 miles, C.T. Sisemore engineer, Cooper fireman.
|
Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
On Sunday, July 21, 2024 at 05:30:32 PM EDT, Gordon Davids via groups.io <g.davids@...> wrote:
I can think of reasons for running two L-1's to Watertown, with one dead-in-train with an engine watchman. First, the only ways to dead-head a steam locomotive were to keep a head of steam for lubrication of the cylinders, or dropping the rods.
?
In 1948 the heaviest traffic south of Watertown was southward iron ore from Benson Mines via Philadelphia (NY) to Belle Isle and then Pittsburgh. The freight traffic to Montreal was still moving on the Adirondack Division from Utica via Malone. One L-1 could handle all the empty hoppers to Watertown for the next day turn, but they might need two L-1's with two trains to handle the next-day loads going south.
?
One of the indicators of operating efficiency on a railroad division was "gross ton miles per train hour." By doubling all of the empties into one train, they could "double" that efficiency for the books, and then move two loaded trains of half that length south to Dewitt or, more likely, to Belle Isle, west of Dewitt. The St. Lawrence Division to Watertown was not a mountain railroad, but it was not the "Water-level Route," either. So sending the second locomotive to Watertown dead-in-train with only a fireman-attendant to maintain steam and lubrication would have made sense at the time.
?
-- Ed Cox
|
Re: Dick Cooper Time Book - NYC St. Lawrence Division
I can think of reasons for running two L-1's to Watertown, with one dead-in-train with an engine watchman. First, the only ways to dead-head a steam locomotive were to keep a head of steam for lubrication of the cylinders, or dropping the rods.
?
In 1948 the heaviest traffic south of Watertown was southward iron ore from Benson Mines via Philadelphia (NY) to Belle Isle and then Pittsburgh. The freight traffic to Montreal was still moving on the Adirondack Division from Utica via Malone. One L-1 could handle all the empty hoppers to Watertown for the next day turn, but they might need two L-1's with two trains to handle the next-day loads going south.
?
One of the indicators of operating efficiency on a railroad division was "gross ton miles per train hour." By doubling all of the empties into one train, they could "double" that efficiency for the books, and then move two loaded trains of half that length south to Dewitt or, more likely, to Belle Isle, west of Dewitt. The St. Lawrence Division to Watertown was not a mountain railroad, but it was not the "Water-level Route," either. So sending the second locomotive to Watertown dead-in-train with only a fireman-attendant to maintain steam and lubrication would have made sense at the time.
?
|
Dick Cooper Time Book - 1960s
4/29-5/13/61 Furloughed.
?
5/14/61 Plattsburg yard, power 4028, yard-local freight rate, marked on Plattsburg 7:00 AM, marked off Plattsburg 4:00 PM, on duty 9:00, paid $26.85 for 119 miles, W.B. Barber engineer, Cooper fireman.
|
Ed Cox