Jack, the example I used with the LV from Sayre to Buffalo was just a "what if " or example of why the D&H didn't go after ownership of lines unwanted / abandoned by CR / USRA in the Final System Plan.

DTH

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 10:48 PM Gordon Davids via Groups.Io <g.davids=[email protected]> wrote:

Some notes on D&H operations on Conrail after Conveyance (April 1, 1976)

Conrail did not create Conrail. On April 1, 1976, Conrail began operating a system that was created by USRA under the 3-R Act. Most of the trackage rights arrangements on Conrail were set by USRA with the agreement of the existing railroads that would operated over Conrail. Some of those had been set in place in the original planning, but The D&H was added late in the game when Chessie System could not get the needed labor agreements to set up a "competitive" proposed MARC-EL system. MARC-EL would have given The D&H and the B&M non-Conrail connections to the west and south, but when Chessie pulled out at the last minute, The D&H had to do it themselves by operating on Conrail.

Except, a little known point The D&H negotiated an agreement with the Lehigh Valley where LV actually conveyed operating rights on its then-existing railroad between Oak Island, NJ and Waverly, NY (EL connection) to The D&H. Those operating rights (not technically trackage rights) conveyed with the operating property of the LV Estate to Conrail, and Conrail was obligated to honor them.

I first learned of this when Conrail petitioned to abandon the original LV line between Allentown and Lehighton to concentrate its operations on the former CNJ. The D&H exercised its operating right on the former LV, and obtained some concessions from Conrail in return for moving to the CNJ. Around that time, The D&H was still operating a vestige of the LV Apollo TOFC service between Oak Island and Buffalo, via former LV to Jenkins, D&H over Ararat to Lanesboro Jct, and EL to Buffalo. That was the long way around, and the Apollos (AP-1 and AP-2) never set any speed records.

- Gordon Davids


On 1/23/2020 12:37 PM, century430 wrote:

Interestingly enough about the LV in far western NY, CR did give some thought to retaining a segment of it as a parallel main in the Batavia area I believe. That was stated in the Final System Plan.

Jim

---

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Jack Klapprodt <klappjack@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:52 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [DandH-Railroad] NE84/87

?

As far as the LV line from Buffalo to Sayre, Conrail could not justify using the line as even a secondary as there were no customers between Romulus and Van Ettan. Therefore,? that part of the line was abandoned. The D&H was given trackage rights on the old EL between Binghamton and Buffalo.?

Jack Klapprodt

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 12:52 AM David Horree <dhorree@...> wrote:

As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.

DTH

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 6:31 PM <mmatt378@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark

-- 
Gordon A. Davids, P.E.
201 Marie Ave
Severna Park MD 21146-3210
g.davids .at. 
Home (410) 647-2956
Mobile (410) 279-7144

Some notes on D&H operations on Conrail after Conveyance (April 1, 1976)

Conrail did not create Conrail. On April 1, 1976, Conrail began operating a system that was created by USRA under the 3-R Act. Most of the trackage rights arrangements on Conrail were set by USRA with the agreement of the existing railroads that would operated over Conrail. Some of those had been set in place in the original planning, but The D&H was added late in the game when Chessie System could not get the needed labor agreements to set up a "competitive" proposed MARC-EL system. MARC-EL would have given The D&H and the B&M non-Conrail connections to the west and south, but when Chessie pulled out at the last minute, The D&H had to do it themselves by operating on Conrail.

Except, a little known point The D&H negotiated an agreement with the Lehigh Valley where LV actually conveyed operating rights on its then-existing railroad between Oak Island, NJ and Waverly, NY (EL connection) to The D&H. Those operating rights (not technically trackage rights) conveyed with the operating property of the LV Estate to Conrail, and Conrail was obligated to honor them.

I first learned of this when Conrail petitioned to abandon the original LV line between Allentown and Lehighton to concentrate its operations on the former CNJ. The D&H exercised its operating right on the former LV, and obtained some concessions from Conrail in return for moving to the CNJ. Around that time, The D&H was still operating a vestige of the LV Apollo TOFC service between Oak Island and Buffalo, via former LV to Jenkins, D&H over Ararat to Lanesboro Jct, and EL to Buffalo. That was the long way around, and the Apollos (AP-1 and AP-2) never set any speed records.

- Gordon Davids


On 1/23/2020 12:37 PM, century430 wrote:

Interestingly enough about the LV in far western NY, CR did give some thought to retaining a segment of it as a parallel main in the Batavia area I believe. That was stated in the Final System Plan.

Jim

---

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Jack Klapprodt <klappjack@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:52 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [DandH-Railroad] NE84/87

?

As far as the LV line from Buffalo to Sayre, Conrail could not justify using the line as even a secondary as there were no customers between Romulus and Van Ettan. Therefore,? that part of the line was abandoned. The D&H was given trackage rights on the old EL between Binghamton and Buffalo.?

Jack Klapprodt

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 12:52 AM David Horree <dhorree@...> wrote:

As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.

DTH

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 6:31 PM <mmatt378@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark

-- 
Gordon A. Davids, P.E.
201 Marie Ave
Severna Park MD 21146-3210
g.davids .at. 
Home (410) 647-2956
Mobile (410) 279-7144

As Conrail was taking shape, I believe that option was looked at and the reason the trackage rights rout was taken was due to costs. If they were to take over lets say the old LV between Buffalo and Sayre, new agreements with labor would have to be negotiated, along with being responsible for track maintenance and taxes and purchase from whichever bankrupts estate. Running via trackage rights none of that was a issue, just whatever fee CR and D&H agreed upon. Remember, D&H wasn't in great financial shape either in the mid 70's, but at least they were solvent.

DTH

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 6:31 PM <mmatt378@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark

[Edited Message Follows]

I often wonder that instead of trackage rights if they had received ownership to Buffalo, Allentown, Oak Island, and maybe even Harrisburg, and they didn't need to rely on Conrail traffic control if they would have had better odds.? But then again, I guess once you figure in track and ROW maintenance etc., maybe it wouldn't have helped.? Obviously Conrail was set up not to fail, so to add any type of real competition for it would have been counterproductive.? D&H probably would still have ended up under NS ownership by now anyway.
?- Mark