Re: Will you please help?
M Person the original poster sent this, in some side correspondence, for further help.? If anyone reading has ideas,? please respond!
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?I am very concerned that? **I am adversely affecting the once healthy relationship my son and I have had. ( I state that well aware that he is and is continuing to develop into his own special individual, separate from the "us")---
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Based on my own thoughts and reading yours, i respond to my son by being energetic and positive of his wants and his ideas. The "however" is that he does not respond in kind.? ---
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I can share examples, but please know these exchanges are not isolated incidents, literally quite the opposite.---
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We are weeding and cutting away dead branches and cleaning around our fruit trees. (As an aside, I am noting that you had mentioned to me about the incorrect use of "we"? and i am stating "we" and "our" , thinking it is accurate...your thoughts, if you do not mind?)---
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Before my son and I go outside, we discuss why the non fruit? trees are there and the purpose they serve because of erosion concerns. We agree that soon we can take them out like he wants and replace with fruit trees. He and I agree and then he? asks if he can trim one...but he then proceeds to cut the whole tree.(without even informing me, much less considering the concerns) This has occurred more than once, my son explaining that either he forgot or he thinks it looks better without the tree.---
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One other example..My son and i have volunteered and worked at a farmers market...this includes unloading the truck, setting up, selling, packing up, and loading. As my son had gotten older, he and I? really enjoy seeing how strong and capable he is. He likes seeing how much he can load and unload---
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Two weeks ago,? I had a customer who wanted to see more peaches, even though we had alot out.. I asked my son if he could get another tub from the truck. He told me no, because he does not like it when i am "too nice" to? customers.---
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Later, we discussed this. One of the points I made was specific to me...It was important to me, and I would appreciate? his cooperation sometimes.? He said that since I always say yes to him, he could think of it as doing something that i wanted. And as he often says..." I promise next time I will"---
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Ironically, the next week something very similar happened, and this time in front of the customer, he refused to get a tub from the truck. I asked him later about his promise, and he said. ."I didn't know you were going to do the same ridiculous thing again"---
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A few points...
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*There is alot of work to do around the house, and he and i have a plan. However, it has been challenging to move forward, because if I have an opinion or something i want to offer, he becomes upset and basically just proceeds doing it as he wants. My reactions have been to ask him to stop so we can look at our options or to have to tell him to stop or to walk away. None of them are ideal.?
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*My son really wants to fix up the house. He wants us to have a 4th of July party next year, so that has been our goal. Yet, it is challenging to go forward when if i? offer a thought or wish, my son gets angry, says how stupid it would be, or agrees and then changes his mind without communicating that.
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*He wants us to work together. He likes us to do things together. (Of course, that means we listen to the radio station he wants, we go where he wants, we do it the way he wants)
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*He wants to especially because he wants us to keep working on the house, and i have explained that it is not a good idea/we can not continue? to work on the house when we cannot find a way to cooperate.)??
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He will feel upset later,? and??he says that he does not mean what he says when he is mad, and when we talk about it, he says he does not know why he acts the way he does.?
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Sandra, i recognize how verbose this is, so please allow me to try to succinctly state my problem...in my opinion, my son and I are only in agreement when it is something he wants or thinks. When it is something i am saying, he disagrees and argues that it doesn't make any sense.?
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Re: Will you please help?
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 09:28 AM, M Person wrote:
I want to continue to encourage him to think and figure? things out.?
-=-I want to continue to encourage him to think and figure? things out. -=-
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You don't need to encourage him to think.? He's doing it all the time, for being human.
I had a thought about mice and ants, too.? Sometimes I've seen situations in which a mom grew up in a place where there were certain realities FOR SURE concerning plants and animals (large or small, from mold to alligators), but moved to a different place where some of their lifelong "truths" and facts aren't really applicable.? People who move from very humid places and come to New Mexico have expressed odd concerns and worries that don't apply here. :-)? Partly, mold and alligators.? ?Rust, if a metal container isn't quickly drained.? Mildew, if a washing machine load sits for an hour or two.??
Thinking and figuring things out is important for the parents.? The children are doing it for the first time, in most cases, but the parents have years of trial and error and reality. :-)
Similarly with terracing.? Realities about the type of soil, and the effects and amount of rain, and whether those tree roots are going to go deep to natural water (if you're where the water table is fairly close to the surface) or whether they're going to be closer to the surface....? ?I don't know.? You might not know.? Your teenaged son probably doesn't. :-)? Go easy on all of it, and maybe have a Plan B to repair walls that start to fail.? You might never need Plan B.
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Sandra
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Re: Will you please help?
-=-A different example is. I have asked him not to throw food bags off the balcony. The reason is that it attracts ants and rodents. (I have offered to gladly take the bags down? if he doesn't want to.) He agrees. Then the next time,? he throws it over the railing. He will then? first say my ideas are always ridiculous, then he will say he is sorry, and? will next time put it in the trash can. Then the next time, he throws it over once more.-=-
Maybe there shouldn't BE food bags.? ?I'm guessing you mean fast-food bags from drive-throughs; if not, never mind.??
A trash can with a lid, with a plastic liner, ON the balcony, might be a perfect place for such things.? Rodents and ants would find it harder to get up on a balcony.? But then probably you, the mom, should?take those bags out and tie them off and either take them to the collection?bin, or ask him to (when it's convenient,? not the moment you tie it off).??
Think more about your relationship first, and then the realities of ants and rodents.? THEN "the rules."? Go with principles over rules.
If you think of principles first and stop making rules, that will help,.
Think of learning first and try not to be controlling.
If he hasn't seen ants or rodents come to food, in his life, yet, maybe you're wrong, or maybe he doesn't have any personal experience to tie in with what you're pressing/demanding him to do.? That's true of most things as kids are growing up.? Moms have known of kids getting hurt, or of dogs biting, or of water staining tables, or whatever, but the kid probably has not, yet.
I think this page will help you be calmer and clearer.? ?It's a collection of stories and experiences about how "control" can be harmful and should be avoided.? ?There are other ways,
Your relationship should be primary, and nagging hasn't ever led to better relationships in any situation. :-)
While you're thinking about how to proceed, find positive things to see in him, and to comment on.? You're frustrated with him, and he's in a stage of of his life where he naturally will be separating from you, so tread gentlyl
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 10:28 AM M Person via <mypersonalmessages1= [email protected]> wrote: I have been fortunate at times to have garnered insights from this group. I am now again hoping to get some guidance once more, in my quest to assist my teenage son.
We are fixing up our home, something my son is very excited about.?We are building terraces to continue to grow our fruit trees, our veggies and our grape vines. We will have a plan of how to proceed, and then he will do the complete opposite. These are not just wants as much as they are things to insure structural integrity.
A different example is. I have asked him not to throw food bags off the balcony. The reason is that it attracts ants and rodents. (I have offered to gladly take the bags down? if he doesn't want to.) He agrees. Then the next time,? he throws it over the railing. He will then? first say my ideas are always ridiculous, then he will say he is sorry, and? will next time put it in the trash can. Then the next time, he throws it over once more.
I want to continue to encourage him to think and figure? things out.?The problem is me...is there any room for my thoughts regarding our home? How do i reconcile these two things?
Thank you for any ideas you can proffer to help me. I am most appreciative.
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Re: Will you please help?
-=-in my quest to assist my teenage son.-=-
"Assist" could be rephrased.? I think?you want to mold or control or persuade him.? That's understandable and can't be avoided. :-)
If you phrase it as "assist" (even in your thoughts), your thinking might not be as clear.
-=-We are fixing up our home, something my son is very excited about.?We are building terraces to continue to grow our fruit trees, our veggies and our grape vines. We will have a plan of how to proceed, and then he will do the complete opposite.-=-
If you are the only two there, and if he is the one physically building terraces, then the confusing term in thoughts might be "we."? I have a page about times when a mom using "we" has been a problem.? I'm not sure it applies here (and you don't need to tell us anything more), but it might be worth a look and some consideration, in the background.
It's true that I've encouraged people to be their children's partner, from infancy, to help then get what they need, to be aware of their feelings and sensibilities, so it's not a recommendation to separate from the child, but a reminder that "we" sometimes means "I".??
So IF you have a plan and you know more about what could cause the terraces to collapse later, maybe it wasn't communicated well, or maybe he's unconvinced or young and inexperienced, but still wants to do it his way.? ? ?Consider how much "damage" or harm might be done by a wall failure.? He would learn more (in a better way) from seeing his wall start to leak or collapse or whatever you're worried about.? And what if it doesn't?? His plan might work for years and years.??
How much damage or harm could come of arguing and nagging?
If he's working without you right there, that might be something to avoid, if your vision is the only right way.
Sandra
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 10:28 AM M Person via <mypersonalmessages1= [email protected]> wrote: I have been fortunate at times to have garnered insights from this group. I am now again hoping to get some guidance once more, in my quest to assist my teenage son.
We are fixing up our home, something my son is very excited about.?We are building terraces to continue to grow our fruit trees, our veggies and our grape vines. We will have a plan of how to proceed, and then he will do the complete opposite. These are not just wants as much as they are things to insure structural integrity.
A different example is. I have asked him not to throw food bags off the balcony. The reason is that it attracts ants and rodents. (I have offered to gladly take the bags down? if he doesn't want to.) He agrees. Then the next time,? he throws it over the railing. He will then? first say my ideas are always ridiculous, then he will say he is sorry, and? will next time put it in the trash can. Then the next time, he throws it over once more.
I want to continue to encourage him to think and figure? things out.?The problem is me...is there any room for my thoughts regarding our home? How do i reconcile these two things?
Thank you for any ideas you can proffer to help me. I am most appreciative.
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I have been fortunate at times to have garnered insights from this group. I am now again hoping to get some guidance once more, in my quest to assist my teenage son.
We are fixing up our home, something my son is very excited about.?We are building terraces to continue to grow our fruit trees, our veggies and our grape vines. We will have a plan of how to proceed, and then he will do the complete opposite. These are not just wants as much as they are things to insure structural integrity.
A different example is. I have asked him not to throw food bags off the balcony. The reason is that it attracts ants and rodents. (I have offered to gladly take the bags down? if he doesn't want to.) He agrees. Then the next time,? he throws it over the railing. He will then? first say my ideas are always ridiculous, then he will say he is sorry, and? will next time put it in the trash can. Then the next time, he throws it over once more.
I want to continue to encourage him to think and figure? things out.?The problem is me...is there any room for my thoughts regarding our home? How do i reconcile these two things?
Thank you for any ideas you can proffer to help me. I am most appreciative.
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Re: Typical Days, Socialization
One more thing, new this month:
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She was responding to this:
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Sugar is sweet
Sugar is sweet, and so are you. If you're not, consider how much sweeter your child's life would be if you were as sweet as sugar.
"The brain LIVES on glucose. It can’t live without it. And little kids' brains need more glucose than adults'."
—
photo by Cátia Maciel
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Re: Typical Days, Socialization
This page was new a few months ago, so still new. :-)
I brought it here because? Anna wrote "I ended up choosing keeping the family together, based on some of your advice and some deep soul searching, rather than insisting on unschooling, but I still keep up with your work a decade later.?"
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I DO think it's more important to keep a family intact than to unschool.
I know for sure that a divorce can bring about the end of unschooling anyway (maybe not immediately, but unschooling is unlikely to thrive even if it survives).
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People have said "SO, are you saying a single mom can't unschool?"? Or a widowed mom.??
Nope.? I'm saying exactly what I'm saying, and what I've been saying.
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Between the time I copied that link to bring it here and the time I pasted it here, I had a message from someone with trouble tweens who made a light comment suggesting she might be considering divorce.? So first, I dropped the link that's here.? ?
I know the "politically correct" thing to do is to pretend there's no difference and divorce is a routine thing that no one should feel responsible for, but? don't believe that.? I have seen kids hurt, was hurt myself (and it was my late teens), and have corresponded with people who were crushed because they had cavalierly let a marriage slide off a cliff and can't bring it back up.
Another one that's not brought out so much:?
That one has been added to, so just because you read it years ago doesn't mean there's nothing new to read. :-)? ?
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Re: Typical Days, Socialization
Thank you Sandra, for all the work you’ve done over the years—mountains of it—for the rest of it. Even though our family didn’t end up unschooling, I read deeply in my son’s early years everything you and the voices around you shared. I ended up choosing keeping the family together, based on some of your advice and some deep soul searching, rather than insisting on unschooling, but I still keep up with your work a decade later. The principles underlying radical unschooling have blessed our family and grown me over the years. And I keep learning. Anyway, I wanted to thank you from my heart for the love, abundance, and joy you share and grow through your writings/conversations/collections/ work.?
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Much love,
Anna
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Honolulu, 96815
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[Anna, I edited the footer to take your full name and phone number off.? And THANK YOU.? —Sandra]
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I recently had a moment that made me think of this post.
I was playing Yahtzee for the first time with my 7-year-old, and I went to help him write down his scores and he wrote them all down by himself and knew all of his numbers including the larger double digits.
My best guess is that he likely learned all of his numbers from playing Pokemon Go.
We've had moments like these with his older sisters, but it was exciting to see it for him too.
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On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 08:58 PM, Bernadette Lynn wrote:
And Kirby is still a computer geek.?
True, and he's working doing computer tech at Honeywell, where his dad worked for many years as a software engineer.? For a long time, though, Kirby was kind of a professional gamer, when he worked as a gamemaster for Blizzard Entertainment (mostly on World of Warcraft, though we weren't supposed to talk about that in public, at the time), and he was, before long, a trainer and supervisor of other gamemasters.?
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Brett is a fireman in Los Alamos, New Mexico.? They pay very well, and he has many days off.? They pay him to work out, in off hours, and the fire station there has the best kinds of workout equipment, I hear.
Marty worked for Apple for a while, indirectly through a contractor.? He honed and updated the map information Siri uses to give directions.? He wasn't doing the programming, but was checking maps, reporting when there would be construction, when new traffic signals would be in operation and lots of fun trivia.? He figured out who to call, in what offices, about which roads.? At first it was just New Mexico (a large state) , but after a while he was doing a couple or three other western states.? That was a limited contract, and now he works for the Albuquerque Police Department doing data analysis on property crimes and traffic, mostly.? It also involves maps, and computer geekery, and discovering patterns that he can share with others there.? He's invited to the morning briefings, and sometimes he's one of those with news or advice to share.??
The world being as it is, I expect that they will all change jobs and maybe fields again, or twice, over the next twenty or thirty years.
Sandra
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Brett to Kirby: If you weren't a gamer, what
would you be?
Kirby: A computer geek. What about you?
And Kirby is still a computer geek.?
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DOH!? The link has been repaired at the Always Learning forum/website.??
Sorry to anyone who clicked from the e-mail and got a robotic rebuff. :-)
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The right link to the original:
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And it's repaired at?
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/g/AlwaysLearning/message/78897
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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This was written in 2001. I told the story of the 18s more lightly in an article called "King's X from the Math Monster."? I didn't know "King's X" was a regional kids'-game term, but that's another thing.
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I thought some people would be amused or reassured.? If you can gain both, that's even better.
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By?SandraDodd?on?Monday, July 16, 2001 - 08:37 pm:
I figured I would use this folder to post
something that's about everything in general.
It's how "nothing" turns into something cool:
Kirby, Marty and Brett (all unschooled kids 14,
12, 15) are in the other room playing a game.
They just returned from hours of gaming at the
shop where Kirby works. Brett only played an hour
and a half; before that he was at driver's ed.
Anyway, Kirby was telling the other boys a story
about a schooled-kid they all know whose name is
not Bob--I'm borrowing that name for him.
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"Bob has learning disabilities so he spells and
writes worse than we do, but today we were
figuring out the scores from [some game phase I
didn't catch] and I was telling him how to figure
it out by 8, and 9, and multiplying by 18 I told
him just treat it like 20, and the subtract two
for each one, so he had four, and that was 80 and
he took out the eight and had 72. He said, 'Oh,
okay! I get that.'
"And [adult who works there] said, 'KIRBY, where
did you learn that?' and I said"...
::dweebish geek voice::..."'I'm homeschooled.'
And he said no, really, did you make that up? And
I said 'Yeah! I'm homeschooled!'"
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The story and the reactions to it from the other
two illustrated that Kirby wasn't aware not
everyone had figured out how to multiply by 18 in
their heads and he didn't know an adult would
be so impressed, or that a kid who claims on his
own to have learning disabilities wouldn't just get
it, and having just gotten it would actually
appreciate it.
But our kids' lives are just kind of like that.
Brett was critiquing my driving on the way home,
using the acronyms they'd learned in class so far.
He was very complimentary. I didn't know I was
doing all those fancy processes. I thought I was
just driving! He was very analytical, which
proved he understood what he's been hearing this
week and last, and which gave my boys a chance to
learn some stuff AND to appreciate my driving!
Good afternoon!
I was about to hit send and heard:
Brett to Kirby: If you weren't a gamer, what
would you be?
Kirby: A computer geek. What about you?
Brett: I don't know.
Kirby and Marty in combination told him he would
be a jock.
Marty, they decided, would be a skater.
Brett has played baseball as much as possible,
Marty has skated (roller blades at the skate park
and ice hockey) a fair amount, and Kirby spends a
lot of time on the computer. So they do have
secondary skills to fall back on if the gaming
thing doesn't work out.
Sandra
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The original is here, but I should probably save it on my site, too.
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Sandra, in 2022, with those boys all grown and parents
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Once a lunatic wrote to me, and we all discussed it in this group.? I did ask if he was insane.? It didn't seem to be the writing of a female, but let me know if you can perceive male or female clues from it, if you are so inclined.?
/g/AlwaysLearning/message/52108
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It's mostly about TV, but of course it's about parental fears and irrational behavior and learning and safety and all the good stuff.
As the discussion unfolded, Deb Lewis wrote a beautiful long list of things her son was inspired to learn because of TV.? I said I was going to save it somewhere.? I don't know if I ever did, not counting in this forum and in the rescued archive Vlad Gurdiga created just in case the migration from yahoogroups to groups.io failed.
? (if you would rather read it there, most or all the posts of the topic I'm linking are also on my site)
In this group here, Deb's response is?/g/AlwaysLearning/message/52138
There was a bit more Deb wrote in a subsequent post, and that (and my response about the safety and advantage to a teen being home instead of out destroying the neighborhood) now is here:?
Be well and safe and appreciate when you not only know where your kids are, but they are where you can bring them a drink and some food.
Sandra
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I had linked this from my page called Mental Health.? It said? ? ??
Dealing with others' depression??
That link goes right back to the mental health page, and though some of the links are too close together on a phone, and it might not be as well formatted for phones as it might be in the future....? ?if you need it, use a computer.??
There are ideas from lots of unschoolers, and some outside sources, about mental health (happy, robust, actual HEALTH) and about depression.
I invite and remind all of you to spend some time following topics and links on my site, or from and within Just Add Light and Stir, to keep yourself up top and bright, if you need any help.
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Today in an e-mail from someone I know personally, an unschooler far from me, though, something worth sharing:
Unschooling, and really understanding it, changed all of our lives so profoundly in so many ways. It's so, so much more than a way of home educating children and I think, until you understand that, you will never really get it. It's a philosophy for life that has stayed with me in my work, as a manager, as a lecturer, as a friend...everything. So thank you!
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Re: objection to the "school sucks" phrase
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 01:01 PM, jenstarc4 wrote:
Every time I prevent something damaging happening to one of my children, it's like healing a little bit of me. Every time I help my children achieve something wonderful, it's a little bit like healing that little girl that would've like that to happen for me! I love gifting my kids with that! It helps make me a better person to give my kids something better!
In 2022, I quoted that on Just Add Light and Stir. I'm glad I came across it somehow, and spun it back out into the unschooling world.
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Jenny Cyphers wrote:"Every time I prevent something damaging happening to one of my children, it's like healing a little bit of me. Every time I help my children achieve something wonderful, it's a little bit like healing that little girl that would've like that to happen for me! I love gifting my kids with that! It helps make me a better person to give my kids something better!"
photo by Cathy Koetsier
I'm grateful for Jenny's writings over the years, and for Cathy K. and others letting me use their photos. :-)
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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Saw this and thought of this topic, and of all mothers of teen boys, past present and future.
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I really love all the little things Sadie listed.
I try to do those with my daughter that has depression and anxiety.
You added even more things for me to pay attention to!
Long story short, she was unschooled until 7th grade and then decided to go to school.
She would be in 10th grade now and just came back home so she is now decompressing from all the school dynamics and pressures.
Deschooling for the first time!
The last 3 years have been hard specially the last one and a half after The pandemic started.
She just turned 16 and she tells me often if she did not have such an awesome mom like me she would have already killed herself.
Keeping her fed has always been a struggle. If she gets hungry she can melt down quick. She rarely eats any meat and does not like things like peanut butter so keeping her protein intake to help with mood changes sometimes takes me being very proactive.
We have tried two therapist for months but she has not really opened up to either. We are going to look for another.
She did a study at Mayo Clinic for Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation for teens and that helped with the depression but not anxiety . The depression now is back very strong a year later.
I am just so so thankful she decided to come home because the anxiety cause by school, because she is a high achiever , was tremendous and just pushed her down so much.
We have a great and very open communication.
Having said that I try not to focus too much on the downs and try to make her life Less stressful, lighter, brighter, with more laughs abs joy, and supporting interests she has.
Remember that depression , if not situational, is mostly a chemical imbalance in the brain.
The difference is that with unschooling , and having a partnership with your child, you can make their environment at home better.
More kindness towards them, less pressures can help anyone already feeling depressed.
I also share what works for me and we talk about finding ways to cope.
I am going to ramble now. I have not written in years.
I hope it helps. This is a great thread for me.
Alex P
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 10, 2022, at 8:15 PM, Sadie Bugni <lotsagr8kidz@...> wrote:
?-“Also, don't blame a depressed or reluctant kid for bringing down the mood.”-
This is super important! I have 2 teens that became very sick as younger teens which caused depression in both. Even to this day, years later, they both feel guilt for possibly holding us back from doing things because they physically and mentally couldn’t. We went out of our way to make sure they knew we didn’t feel that way and they still felt it.
Sadie Bugni
On Feb 10, 2022, at 7:04 PM, Sandra Dodd <aelflaed@...> wrote:
Also, don't blame a depressed or reluctant kid for bringing down the mood.
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I'm in New Mexico, where a lot of teens drive early—at 15 or 16.? Early compared to some other places.
IF the oldest is a driver, and willing to get out, maybe errands would help.? He'd still be alone, but would be doing something useful and mature.? "We need milk and cat food," or "Could you go and get chicken nuggets and fries, enough for all of us?" or whatever might work.? [Apologies to vegans for all the milk and chicken nugget thoughts that come normally to me.]
That's distraction, but it's also a way to kind of... throw the dice again; to reset the relative positions of all the people involved.?
If you could find a few very adult things like that, for him to do, don't forget to do some sweet-to-inner-child things too, though.? Favorite snack in a monkey-platter delivery, or a new water bottle with a color or texture or art you think he'd like.? Ice water in it.? A t-shirt with a game or cartoon character he loved when he was nine years old.
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The ice water and textured bottle idea, and the changing up of who's in the house, seem to be coming (for me)? from the sort of routine-breaking differences that have helped me de-funk or cheer up when I felt I was sinking into a routine of "life is wrong" thoughts and increasing inactivity.? Sometimes what gets my own attention is something new and different to play with—in my hands.? ?Sometimes I found something, but sometimes someone happened to give me something or bring something over, that had a texture worth feeling or touching, or my granddaughter made slime and I played with her, with it.? Or the cat had a sticker, and I ended up checking the whole cat which turned into a kitty massage session that soothed the cat and me both.
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Somewhere there was a meme going around that handcrafts or needlework specifically maybe was really good therapy.? Maybe more for women than men, or maybe not.??
If money isn't too tight, maybe something like new towels in the bathroom he uses—fluffier, colorful (or really white, if that's his personality, to have clinically sanitary stuff/colors).? A new pillow (but don't take away his old one), or blanket (ditto on the old one).
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Not all of that at once, but the thing could serve as distraction and physically calming.... something I don't know the words for.
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Sandra
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)
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From the anonymous mom who sent the questions in the first place—FEEDBACK, updates and thanks
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First of all, thank you all so much for your thoughts and ideas!? I have a *lot* to think on at this point.? I wanted to touch on some things specifically.
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Sandra wrote to me about "not just lack-of-mental-illness, but *health*"," and it reminded me of a book I'd read recently that said when you fix all the mental illness in someone, you don't necessarily have a happy, healthy person; you have an EMPTY person.? It reflects so much on where we are right now with my oldest:? nowhere near where we WERE, but not yet happy and healthy; empty.? I'm hoping we can walk together in the right direction. <3
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From Debbie:? "There is a bit of fretfulness coming through in the original post." You are absolutely right that I am sometimes veering into "fretful," and honestly sometimes into "frustrated."? I feel like I've given him choices and he keeps making decisions that take him further into the void instead of out of it, and I find myself worried and frustrated.? That's why I'm trying to spend time soaking up words from the "Peace"-related pages on Sandra's site, so I can be in a good place not only when I interact with him but also for my other two.? I know in my head that I can't control/change him, I can only work on me, so I'm trying to let go.? (Though it's frustrating sometimes, watching the choices he makes!)
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Related to Karen's post:? he is definitely an introvert and I am, too--I'm content with that aspect of his personality (tho, interestingly, I wonder if *he* is.....)? I've read?Quiet?and recommended it to him; he'd probably be better with watching the TED talk. ;)? "For all three of us, with depression, distraction helps"??I'm going to try to find a distraction that actually appeals to him.? That might take some digging but I think it would be worth it.
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Belinda wrote her daughter's comment that "if one perceives that the happiness of another person is depending on your own happiness, the pressure is huge and debilitating. She thinks that seeing the mum enjoying the other children and enjoying herself will be a relief to the eldest, not an insult. That the mum will do everyone a favour by keeping a light touch and enjoying life as much as possible."? This is HUGE for me and something I've been really dealing with lately.? I grew up with the phrase "a mom is only as happy as her unhappiest child," and it wasn't until I was in my 40's that I went "wait, WHAT?? THAT'S not healthy."? Add to that the fact that a lot in my life right now is really draining (even disregarding the situation with my oldest); I realized that I need to be really careful with myself (for lack of a better phrase) to stay healthy and happy for my youngest.??
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I did laugh at the "pink lady apples" reference:? I literally buy a bag of pink lady apples at the store every week just for him, and slice one up for him every day when I make lunch for my youngest.? I thought it was fun that of all the ideas she could have, it was about pink lady apples.? :)
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Sandra, this was comforting:? "Hearing happy sounds outside can be good.? If the other kids are happy, and the mom is singing or humming or joking or laughing, and if I were in a dark room brooding, it would make me feel better."? He spends a LOT of time in his room brooding (thankfully not in the dark anymore; he's taken to opening his blinds--an interesting side-effect of three days spent in inpatient treatment where he couldn't see out the windows) and I always feel like we must be irritating him.? Because we ARE happy, out here, and my girls can be LOUD sometimes, and I have this idea that we're making him crazy.? But maybe it's a comfort to hear us, and I'm going to choose to look at it that way from now on.
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I've already touched on your idea about "If you have any ideas that you shouldn't be happy unless your oldest child there is also happy, step out of that little dark cloud!? The other kids need you."? YES.? Yes, they do.? My youngest is 8--she needs her mama to BE there and not be exhausted and drained.??
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"Also, don't blame a depressed or reluctant kid for bringing down the mood.? Trees cast shade, but they're easy to live under, with and around. :-)? Sometimes the shade is wonderful."??I love this so much.? We can live together without him needing to affect us....and maybe (hopefully) we will affect him.
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Thank you ALL so, so much for such *full* lists of ideas.? I feel like I can "do something" on my end, even if I can't actually *make him change.*? I feel less helpless.
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Side note:? While everyone else was entering lockdown in 2020, my son finally started emerging from the isolation that he'd created for himself.? He is going out with friends frequently, in spite of the covid-craziness (we live in a pretty relaxed state; we're doing All The Things, just with masks lol).? He has very *few* friends, but that's always been his nature.? He attends a support group for teens with anxiety and depression once a week and sees his people, and then gets together probably three times a week outside of that with two guys from the group. His depression began well before Covid/lockdown, but interestingly he's had more of a social life during the pandemic than he did before!
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Again, thanks for listening, and for so many thoughts shared,
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Sandra Dodd