please remind her in a calm and a humorous manner that her friends might try to pressure her to secretly take them places, and that it's only a good idea to sneak off in a car in comedy movies (oh... not even then!) :-)??

Thank you for the reminder!? We already had a conversation about our state law and how even if she isn't drinking, if she's with people who are she could potentially lose her license, but I didn't think about other aspects where friends might not know the effects of their actions.??

And that reminds me of your story of Holly and the pudding party?

I'm soaking up older teen stories lately.? Hopefully in the future when my husband and I have situations with adult/young adult kids (like Kirby's family and the van), we have some idea of how best to respond.? ?

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 12:36 PM, Katie Robles wrote:

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None of her friends have their permit or license.? The parents don't want to spend the money on insurance, take the time to teach their kids how to drive as the school doesn't offer drivers ed, or take the time to deal with all the DMV requirements.?

I loved the joy of your post, and this paragraph reminded me of Adventures in Babysitting (a good film from the old days) and of Ferris Beuller's Day Off, and of less joyful "adventure" stories.?

Kirby's family had their SUV and my older mini-van, which I gave them as a gift when they had their third child.? Their other car was old, and a sedan.

A teen cousin / niece of that family picked Devyn (13) up from school (along with her friend), and though no one in the car was hurt, they were hit (fault half and half) and that van was totalled.? Turns out it was still in my name (after two years, though we had signed over the title...)? so it also hadn't had the registration renewed.? ??

The place where the accident was had been messed up by the city for weeks, and my husband had a minor fender-bender there, too, because of it, so it wasn't a safe place for a teen to even try to drive. ALSO, her friends without any driver's ed training or without knowing the things she will need to know to pass the test won't be as aware of the realities and the dangers of being a newish driver.? They've probably only been with long-experienced drivers, and could (WOULD) easily distract and tease and goad her into stupidity without even knowing they were doing it. :-)

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What I mean to say is... please remind her in a calm and a humorous manner that her friends might try to pressure her to secretly take them places, and that it's only a good idea to sneak off in a car in comedy movies (oh... not even then!) :-)??

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This part is beautiful:

This is kind of a scary-ish new thing for us as parents.? My daughter real wants to move out and be more independent as early as she can.? I know if we've spent as much time as possible driving with her before that point it will help once she is moved out and also help her not feel so stuck right now.?

It's really nice to be able to do this for her and that we can afford the extra insurance financially.?

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Sandra

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If you're watching Cobra Kai at your house (if), then Adventures in Babysitting has a tie-in (Elizabeth Shue stars).

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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

-=-The thing that seemed to make the biggest change was giving her a special set for her own to use as she wishes. I had just that set- it was my grandpa's, the pieces are beautifully realistic, molded plastic. She knows how I treasure it and giving her that seemed to melt away the jealousy surrounding chess for her.-=-

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She's four years old.? She can't "know" how you treasure a chess set that was your grandpa's.??

If you can't remember being that young, and if you haven't been around a lot of kids that age lately, they can be casually destructive because they were pretty much born yesterday.? They have no sense of nostalgia yet, or of antiques, nor of how old grandparents are, or how difficult it can be to obtain another one of something that's 50 or 80 years old.? :-)? Even if you could, it wouldn't be the original.

If you DO treasure that chess set, put it up yourself every time.? Put it up high.? :-)? ?Take care of it for her, so that she's not set up to fail.??

Be her partner. :-)

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Sandra

I didn't get to what I was building up to. :-)? Sorry.

When Keith and I had a brief, loud argument, one of us might've been rational, but neither one was.

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In our regular partnership if one of us is frustrated, the other usually smooths and soothes, but that didn't happy yesterday.? We needed to import Holly (though I didn't know it; she was right).

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In the case of a partnership in which one is only four years old, all the "rational" part falls to the mom. :-)? But someday, maybe, it will turn the other direction.? Holly is 31 years old.? If you have little kids that might seem like an impossibly long time into the future but I felt like that too, and here it is. :-)? ?All my kids who used to be little, and were all teens at once, and who all grew up and scattered out in their 20s, are all back in Albuquerque, in their 30s. :-)

Your experience will most likely be different, but expect the unexpected. :-)? ?(And don't expect whatever you might be envisioning otherwise.)

Sandra
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

In related sacrifice, Keith and I decided to pay the extra insurance for our two sons, so they could drive before they were 25 years old, as is the requirement where we live. (It was less expensive for their younger sister, because she was not male.)

We know other families who encouraged the boys to stall before learning to drive, or required them to pay for their own liability insurance. We figured learning to drive, in New Mexico (and in many places) is helpful to the family, and is a part of growing up and being independent. We didn't "have to," but it was an unschooling decision—the cost of them learning to drive when they wanted to.

I read this in the linked pages and was excited.? Our oldest just got her learners permit yesterday.? She's 15 1/2 (she's not currently unschooling, but was for many years, and two of her siblings are still unschooled).

None of her friends have their permit or license.? The parents don't want to spend the money on insurance, take the time to teach their kids how to drive as the school doesn't offer drivers ed, or take the time to deal with all the DMV requirements.?

This is kind of a scary-ish new thing for us as parents.? My daughter real wants to move out and be more independent as early as she can.? I know if we've spent as much time as possible driving with her before that point it will help once she is moved out and also help her not feel so stuck right now.?

It's really nice to be able to do this for her and that we can afford the extra insurance financially.?

I wanted to comment on the topic title. :-)?

Putting quotation marks on "irrational" does suggest the mom knows that a four year old couldn't be "rational," or that it's something the mom considers irrational but might not be.

My husband and I are in our sixties now, and we're the only two living here. and yesterday we had irrational outbursts, and yelled, and it was brief but stupid, and he was really angry, and I wasn't happy myself.??

Now I'm writing about an investment in my own future (made years back).? I called Holly, our youngest, only daughter, only childless offspring, the only one whose work schedule has har free at 2:00 p.m. on a Monday. :-)? ?I asked her to call her dad and calm him down and make him feel better.

She was on the freeway, eight or ten miles away when I called.? She was on the way to her house, but she could as easily get to ours.? I didn't WANT her to come over, I wanted her to Call Her DAD.? I was still cranky and knew he was wound up above and beyond my own level of "that was STUPID."??

She said she would call him and tell him she was coming over. :-)

She was a great mediator.? She did what I used to do when the kids were little.? She came and checked my side of the story, and went and talked to her dad (way other end of the house, in his own hidey-hole room; I as in the kitchen working on webpages).

She was back there a few hours, helped him do some maintenance and cleaning, heard his side of that story, and some other things about what he'd been doing, and about her newish job.? She's working a full-season contract on a job she used to be occasional on, helping train people who are interested in farming in this area—small farms, hoop houses, greenhouses,? within the irrigation area along the Rio Grande—it's interesting.? She worked on a small vegetable farm (small farm AND small vegetables :-) ) for five years..... ANYway, I had heard more of the recent stories than Keith had.

Later she came and talked to me again.? Everyone was calm, and she advised me on what I might could've done better, and reminded me of how Keith is, about some things.? She was totally right. It was super helpful.

So maybe if you're sweet to your kids, they'll grow up and come and be sweet to you.? Not every time, no guarantee, but yesterday was a nice experience.

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Sandra

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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 11:12 PM, Cara Jones wrote:

I wish I could go back to when my kids were 4, with what I know now, but I’m not sure I’d have the energy!

We have little grandkids over sometimes, who are 2, 3, 4, 5 years old (the current ages of the younger four of five—the eldest is 13).??

We do NOT have the energy we had!? Keith is better with these kids than he was with ours, because he's retired and soft and more confident.? I get tired easily, and can't play on the floor, as I could when my own were little.??

It's easy looking back to appreciate what we had that's lacking now, :-)

It might be impossible to hear people say "This time will pass too soon," or "appreciate infants while you have them," or "five year olds are still so little," without just being irritated at the old-folks-style noise.? ?That's been going on for as long as there've been people, I'm sure—mothers of older kids and adults Isaying "This will pass, too soon," to the younger, frazzled moms.

"Frazzled" makes it hard to think softly sometimes. :-)

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Sandra
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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

This is linked, but I want to highlight it:

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"I deserve..." or "ALL children deserve..." is a signpost taking you down a brambly path.

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If you're ever wishing there were more posts here, or wanting something new to read, go to?

? (the blog where I attempt to announce new and remodelled pages) and read, or play with the randomizer.

You could subscribe.? If you still check e-mail and you want to subscribe to something else, too:?

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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

This is not a beginning topic, but I cleaned up an older page, and created a newer one of existing parts. :-)

Those both lead to "Cake," which is also mostly about sacrifice.

Magical sacrifices (not the kinds that work; not the things that help unschoolers)


Sacrifice, in a good way, for unschooling parents

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Sandra

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These posts seem most helpful to me when there is a progress update, so wanted to provide that.

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No one's getting perfect, but "better" is easily doable!

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-=-....?flooded with defensive scripts-=-

I forgot to include the link to ideas about sorting through those repeating loops—sometimes in our own voices, but very often in voices of older relatives or friends or enemies.

I don't think any person ever clears out all the old tapes, but being aware that they ARE the mental recordings of messages is a step toward not being controlled by them, and not passing them on unexamined.??

My kids probably have my voice telling them one thing or another that I wish I could go back and edit. :-)

No one's getting perfect, but "better" is easily doable!

Sandra

-=-....?flooded with defensive scripts-=-

I forgot to include the link to ideas about sorting through those repeating loops—sometimes in our own voices, but very often in voices of older relatives or friends or enemies.

I don't think any person ever clears out all the old tapes, but being aware that they ARE the mental recordings of messages is a step toward not being controlled by them, and not passing them on unexamined.??

My kids probably have my voice telling them one thing or another that I wish I could go back and edit. :-)

No one's getting perfect, but "better" is easily doable!

Sandra

Sandra, I am so grateful that you have pointed this out! After reading the link (?) I am horrified to think I could have gone my whole marriage with this attitude and disregard for my husband. I have used this word so flippantly and I am so sorry to the whole group as well, for my cavalier use of something so hurtful. It stings and my mind was flooded with defensive scripts, but oh my, how glad I am to start recovering from and removing ridicule, in all its forms, from my thoughts and words.

**She is four.? She's barely out of infancy.? It is natural for young children to prefer their mothers.**

Yes, of course! It is easy to loose sight of this because of how capable she is.

Thank you all for giving me so much to process, to try out, and to observe.

Lollizah

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On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 08:07 AM, Lollizah wrote:

My husband is definitely has better parenting instincts. Like the dinner seating. When he remembers, he always asks her, "Where would you like me to sit, Sweetie?" I am the one who has this gut reaction that it is ridiculous to ask a preschooler where to sit. He is humble and doesn't care about controlling his chair. It takes me a breath or two to get to that place. (Religious, punitive upbringing baggage, I am sure.)
Am I the reason she "doesn't like" him?

I doubt you're the reason she prefers you to her dad right now.??

Lots of people have baggage from their childhoods. Somewhere between most and all.? Learning to notice "the voices in your head," and then to consciously counter them with newer, better ideas, is a way to heal your own inner child and current self, and to create a better nest and environment for your current children.

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But look at the section you wrote, that I quoted above.? You say your husband has better parenting instincts, but that your gut reaction is that it's ridiculous, what he's doing. :-)

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If your own glares and growls and facial expressions could be picked up by your children as being critical or belittling of their dad, don't do that!? (If you're not doing it, peachy, but you did ask if it could be your fault, so I'm fishing for the fish in your own fishbowl here. :-) )

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Sandra

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(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 08:07 AM, Lollizah wrote:

What kinds of questions should I be asking in these mild interchanges?

None; she's four years old.

When DD is angry to the point of rage, I will tell her "I know it's hard to feel out of control and I will ride this wave with you."? Or things like "I see you are angry and I will help you through this." Or "I feel jealousy sometimes too. I will be here with you."

Way too many words.? A mountain of words too many, for a four year old.? Too many for an adult who hasn't paid you for counseling.

I despise those "active listening" speeches.? They are for therapists to use, not for parents, friends or partners to use.

She has always had a strong preference for me, and honestly, I just don't see why she can't accept love from both of us! Help me see this.

She is four.? She's barely out of infancy.? It is natural for young children to prefer their mothers.??

I am the one who has this gut reaction that it is ridiculous to ask a preschooler where to sit

The word "ridiculous" inspires me to point out to people how strong a term it is, and how damaging and dismissive.

You not only thought it, but you wrote it down and shared it (probably without conscious awareness that you were doing so, or what it means)—don't feel too bad, but do try to catch yourself next time, earlier.? And someday, catch yourself before you even think it.

Maybe read this in small installments, but if you DO want help seeing what could be confusing you, try to work through it over a few days or a week.? If it makes you defensive, breathe. :-)? Think about why you would prefer to keep "ridiculous" even if it could be harming real lives and relationships.

Sandra

I'm working on a page on my site that has a quote from me, in? this group. :-)? ?

"It's not so important to talk to a child about those things as to respond to the child with the awareness that eventually he or she (and you) might understand better what his patterns and ranges are, and to accept that is IS normal for that child, and it does no good to advise him to be like you if he's not naturally like you."

The topic as I was writing that, was about the highs and lows (of mood / 'speed' that many, and probably most, people have).??

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Four is too young for such discussions or descriptions, but parenthood is not too soon to learn more about the range of normal human response, and to take into consideration each child's temperament as the parent makes decisions.

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If those things describe the parent, even a little, more self-awareness might help to keep situations safer (socially and emotionally, at least) for all involved.

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That quote is from this post:

/g/AlwaysLearning/message/73413

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Thanks for being here, everyone, for reading, considering, and applying some of these ideas to your life.? Thanks for the contributions of ideas, those who have written lately, or in any year back to the beginning of the group!

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Sandra

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I didn't realize I hadn't mentioned empathy with DD until Cara pointed it out. I do empathize.
When DD is angry to the point of rage, I will tell her "I know it's hard to feel out of control and I will ride this wave with you."? Or things like "I see you are angry and I will help you through this." Or "I feel jealousy sometimes too. I will be here with you."
I think I am missing many less triggered times to empathize.? She often snubs dad or brother (because they are boys!). She will roll her eyes at DH if he speaks to her. When he complements her or asks about something she's doing, then she will growl and bear her teeth at him like a puppy. He and I just brush this off- ignore it. I see now that this is probably the time to probe more about this. I am not sure how to do this. What kinds of questions should I be asking in these mild interchanges?
She has always had a strong preference for me, and honestly, I just don't see why she can't accept love from both of us! Help me see this. My husband is definitely has better parenting instincts. Like the dinner seating. When he remembers, he always asks her, "Where would you like me to sit, Sweetie?" I am the one who has this gut reaction that it is ridiculous to ask a preschooler where to sit. He is humble and doesn't care about controlling his chair. It takes me a breath or two to get to that place. (Religious, punitive upbringing baggage, I am sure.)
Am I the reason she "doesn't like" him?

Lollizah

He should not be hit, especially to the point where he feels like he has to protect himself.

What you said about processing my own anger in an outward way so that she can see how to do it- that is a great point! Here everyone around her are internal processors and she probably just thinks we don't feel what she feels.
You all ask such wonderful questions; this really helps me to see it from different perspectives. Before I found unschooling, I read a lot of Magda Gerber/RIE parenting. Which is great compared to punitive parenting, but I don't know what to do in certain situations.
I.E. if she is going after her brother hitting at him, I don't see a way to keep him safe without him having to leave (which isn't fair to him) or to restrain her so she can't hit. It doesn't feel right restraining her even though my touch is as gentle as possible. You all have given me great things to try. Proactive observation and connection.
My sweet DS has wonderful patience with his sister, but I see it wearing thin in a way that is causing him to avoid her. I feel sad about this. There have been rare occasions where he has retaliated physically and that has always ended in (unprompted) apologies and hugs.
Any thoughts on how to help him express his frustration to her??
Thank you all!

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I wonder how she would respond to either you or her sibling playing a second game of chess with her (with whatever rules she wants) while you play with the older child.?