It's more that my nieces have accepted the deal with the grandparents, the rules and expectations and so on, so there's a shared understanding of the relationship and accepted ways to go about it, that they all understand.

It can't be that grandparents are required to become unschoolers retroactively.

It can't be that grandparents don't have rights in their own homes when unschoolers come to visit.

?

Where there are rules and expectations (and so on), and the children have their parents as partners, the best thing the partner can do is to prepare them to "accept the deal with the grandparents, the rules and expectations and so on"

my children never quite know what they are expected to do

The same link with the ideas about coaching would help with that.
?

Sandra

REMINDER

This group is not private.? Don't say things you wouldn't want others to read.? It's not a confidential therapy session.? Try to discuss ideas, as ideas, rather than people.? How would unschooling principles apply?? What is sensible and beneficial to the children?

______________________

The original question seems to be largely about memes and stereotypes, and guesses at what grandparents might perhaps be expecting.

"If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier."

Could that be applied to grandparents, too?

?
--
(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

REMINDER THAT THIS GROUP IS PUBLIC

?

Response from another member:

_____________________

--

?

(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

Brought anonymously at the request of the author:

My kids are 11 and 6, and since they were born, my husband and I have valued “Always Saying Yes!” to their interests and desires. Like many here know, sometimes this means saying Yes to a safer variation of their desire or timing that fits the family team, but we usually follow their interests and find the excitement within. We currently unschool and have parented with attachment in mind from the beginning. (Both of us were parented more traditionally and went to public school.)

In the last few years, I’ve noticed the theme of “grandparents are meant to spoil their grandkids” within our families and also in the larger mainstream culture in the U.S. Often quoted memes like “If I’d known grandkids were so much fun, I would have had them first” seem to point to a belief that parents are supposed to be the strict ones who say no to their kids and do all the discipline, and grandparents are supposed to the ones who say yes.

Because our kids are growing up within a family culture of trust, genuine consideration for their requests, and saying yes whenever possible, I’ve noticed that our parents don’t necessarily have much room to do any “spoiling” or “indulging.” In fact, it’s often the grandparents who enforce rules that they consider important, like “no dessert before dinner” or “only one scoop of ice cream/piece of candy.” (Their rules often are about food, interestingly enough.)

It feels like the stereotypical roles (grandparents who spoil vs. strict parents) have been reversed in our family, and I’ve noticed that sometimes it seems to leave our parents adrift and a bit confused about what kind of relationship they’re supposed to have with our kids.

I’m curious about how other families have navigated this dynamic, and how they’ve nurtured grandparent-grandchild relationships with their parents. How do you help them interact in ways that go beyond simply “spoiling the grandkids”?

?

________________________ end of quote ____________________

Not my writing, but my name will show as the one who posted. —Sandra

?

I am late getting back here.? I had hoped the mom would answer my e-mail to her so I could clarify some things, for the group, still keeping her anonymous.

Karen, Jo and Dola all wrote beautiful responses, and it was probably enough for her, and she didn't need more particular help.??

I hope if the original mom was not helped by it, that others reading were.

Below is most of what I wrote to her.? The part I'm not sharing is the particular questions about whose kids were whose and about the e-mail address (a school district e-mail, but a district I could look up and they do have an alternative school and a virtual school along with all the "brick and mortar" schools).? I had no response, though.

I hope quoting this much will help others, though, too.?

So, me to a person whose post I did NOT let through as it was, with her real name and all:

?

The day I wrote that, I had first put it on my own facebook page by mistake, and it got some comments there.? One was from Daveed, someone I knew in the Society for Creative Anachronism, who had been to in-person philosophy discussions (based in and on that medieval studies organization, but still some of the ideas like principles over rules, and ideas over individuals were the same for me then and there as in unschooling discussion).

The comments are different, but the main post is the same.

I'm very grateful for all those who have shared what they were thinking, wondering, seeing, experiencing and concluding, over the years.? My intellectual life was rich because of the people who were willing to hang out and share thoughts.

?

Thank you!!

?

I don't think it's too late to "lively up" this group.

Seven years ago I wrote something about people's reactions to discussions.? I was a bit...? heated??

Here's a response worth considering here.? I will leave it anonymous, but the name is there (for those who can get to facebook):

?

This was particularly salient to me Sandra. I have been reading this list for quite some time and the Always Learning but I have mostly held back from commenting on the groups as I didn't feel ready. When I read your post I realised that these groups might not be around forever and that if I wanted them to continue then I needed to take some personal responsibility for contributing to them myself. I also realised that I might be missing out on relating to the people that are here and getting feedback on our Unschooling journey. Rather than waiting until a time in the future when I might be able to engage in writing and sharing in something I value, I thought that it might be the time to contribute now.

One of my comments there is below.? At this point, a few have lasted over 25 years, and some of my favorites are off to other things/places.

I'm also grateful to people who are willing to ask questions and roll with the discussions without getting defensive or cranky. Every question helps LOTS of readers.

Someone sent me a link to the wikipedia page on unschooling.? There's a paragraph about radical unschooling, and it names me, an then misrepresents what I believe, and has a footnote to a page on my site. :-)

Joyce Fetteroll once wrote that if it was easy to explain, we'd just need one page.? Even for definitions, I have two pages on my site.?

Here's some of my response to the person who sent that link. :

?"New Mexico homeschooling parent??proposed the term "Radical Unschooling" to emphasize the complete rejection of any distinction between educational and non-educational activities"...? ?Wrong! :-)? I don't believe there ARE "non-educational activities," and I know well from being a student and a teacher and a human that "educational activities" might not result in any learning. :-)

Also, as radical unschooling was honed and clarified in discussions in those old days, part of what Pam Sorooshian and Joyce Fetteroll, Deb Lewis, myself and others figured out was that the ideas about how "academics" are learned can apply also to household things, and there's a lot of learning that isn't on a school curriculum that also is best figured out through conversations and observations, and not by "being taught."

And why am I only a parent and not an author?? I've had articles in magazines since 1996 or so. :-)

November 24, is the 20th anniversary of the creation of this group.? Children have been born and grown up past unschooling age in that time.? ?Some who were kids then are parents themselves, now.

Thank you for being here, and I hope you'll stay.

If you scroll down at?/g/AlwaysLearning?you can see a chart of how many posts there were per month.? It's sparse now, but it doesn't have to be.? You're welcome to stir up the discussion.? If you're shy, send me a note on the side and ask me to create a topic for you, or get another friend of yours to do it. We should discuss the ideas and not the individuals anyway.

On that page there are some glitches, from when the group was moved.? A few posts show as being older than November 2001, but it's what happens when a huge amount of info is moved, as all of this stuff was.??

I am VERY GRATEFUL for groups.io having enabled us to import the archives from the old yahoogroups site AND to have arranged things so that we can still use the group!? It's like a miracle.

Thank you one and all!

?

Sandra

P.S., thank you Davina H. for letting me know when it was time to say THANK YOU to everyone.

(and if I wait until it's the 24th in Albuquerque, most of the rest of the world will be way past that, as usual)

Below is a link to the page where a small part of that writing was shared in screen shot, out of context, without giving readers a clue as to what the topic was.? Zeroing in on one phrase, people not using their real names (for the most part) decided to attempt to tear me up and down.?

I have a favorite part, but what amuses me might not amuse others.

Were I to be in that discussion, though I do hope I stay out of it, I might point out that there are no guarantees, and that among the homeless there are people with advanced degrees.?

?

Recently I spent a few hours with someone my age who is not now homeless, but has been.? She has a law degree from Harvard.? She was there ten years before Obama was.? She was laughing and saying everyone who goes there thinks they could maybe become president.? Obama's the only one who has succeeded.? The topic came up because she was staying with a friend of mine who was in hospice care (and died a week after my visit).? The friend (; we were best friends my senior year of college) had a grandfather who had gone to Harvard Law School, and thought he might become president.? He became a judge and then died early.? ??

?

SO!? Someone can be gifted, and have a degree from Harvard Law, and then die early, or live long but become homeless at some point in there.

?

Anyway... the criticism is here:

(If I use the real URL, it gives away the punchline, but it's on reddit.)

Enjoy if you can. :-)? A couple of people defended me; that's plenty.? I'm not asking people for that.? I would rather discuss the ideas here and leave reddit to its own self.

?

Sandra

?

In 2009, I wrote this chapter on problems with the idea of a child "being gifted."? It's a school term, and mostly disregards any idea of multiple intelligences.? It's also tied in with testing, and "IQ" (intelligence quotient, determined by test scores).

In The Big Book of Unschooling, it's three pages long—first edition, pages 71-73.? Second edition, 78-80.

Recently I stumbled upon a serious criticism of one phrase in that writing. :-)? I'll share that in another post, because this is already way long.?

?

Giftedness

Words, words.

?

Years have passed since I first objected to labeling a child "gifted."? Years of my life, the lives of others who grew up with me, labeled and maybe wishing they had been, because the opposite of "gifted" is "not gifted"—nothing special.

?

My own first epiphany concerning labels, growth curves and permanence came one day when I went home from college and saw a friend I'd gone to school with since we were in elementary school.? She? was tall, no doubt about it.? In fourth grade, she was taller than the teacher and taller than any of the boys in our class.? Just tall.? Really tall.

?

Years passed without me thinking of that label, and she stepped off her bicycle and was shorter than I am.? I'm 5'4" so she was 5'2" maybe?? Neither of us was tall.? But I had never been tall, so there were no expectations on me.? Nothing but the words in my own head made her short that day.

?

Expectations and "goals" and assumptions about other people are not direct seeing.? They're not direct being.? They're threats, and dares, and challenges, and relief and joy writ large, in dust.?

?

Of course some people are better at things than others.? Some can write a first draft and it's publishable.? Some can make up a song and it's worthy of recording and selling.? Some begin in the middle, even on their first day, of a sport or art or handicraft.? Some think in patterns from birth, and so mathematics will seem obvious to them.? Some dream in emotions and see people's hurts and potential whether they're raggedy and homeless or all dressed and made up and on stage.? Psychology will seem elementary to them.? Some have photographic memories, which is good if they're remembering a map, and bad if they've seen a serious injury.? These things are not necessarily "gifts."

?

I believe that the idea of "talent" and "giftedness" comes from the Bible, and the idea that when God gives a person a gift, the person owes that service back to God.? How that came to be measured by "IQ tests" and turned into government policy could probably fill its own book.? The school didn't "gift" your child, though, and he doesn't owe the school.

To peek at school for a moment, there are gifted programs so that schools won't lose some of their students to private schools and so they won't be sued for failure to educate all their students (or that was some of the reason fifty years ago).? Then there came to be teachers for the gifted and talented.? That created jobs, programs, special equipment and more specialists.? Those jobs need to be protected.

?

Turn away from school now, and back to your own children at home.?

?

It is possible that a child who reads at the age of three will be tired of reading by the age of ten.? It is possible that a child who first really reads at the age of ten will become a professor of literature and a great author.?

?

A child who can recite prime numbers or reel off the infinitesimal pieces of pi might not be able to wipe his own ass.? What kind of gift is that for anyone?? It's just a thing, like being able to pogo stick for an hour, or to learn all the dialog and songs in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail."? It will neither save nor destroy the world.

?

Parents complain about children living in fantasy worlds sometimes, and not growing up and facing reality.? I think probably in every single one of those cases, it was the parental fantasy of what the child ought to be doing that was really the problem.

?

Now, unschooling:? The principles of unschooling work the same way no matter how quick or slow or skewed-in-talent any particular child is.? Helping each child do/see/experience?what is near and interesting, helping him understand it if he's curious, leaving him alone until another time if he's not interested, will help each of those children to learn.? Some might learn less in a day than you'd be happy to report.? Some might learn more in a minute than you had ever known about some object/process/topic in your life.? That first of those two might grow up to be rich and happy.? The second one could be a crack whore someday.? Don't take your "learning moments" to the bank.?

?

Respect and acceptance are more important than test scores and "performance."? Understanding is more important than recitation.

?

My recommendation is that if you have a child you're sure is fantastically superior to other beings, keep quiet about it.? She might grow up to be literally or figuratively 5'2", if you're lucky enough that she grows up.? Don't be so ecstatic now that you can't help but be disappointed in your children for being the people they are.?

?

Many gifted children grow up to be "normal" or "average."? In terms of the learning, growth and earning curve laid out for them by school and parents, they are failures.? Normal is "failure."? Extreme success isn't extreme success.? It was to be expected, and the parents and teachers take credit for it.

?

When a once-labeled "average" child grows up to be a great success, some people will look askance, as though he cheated, or maybe they'll praise him in the backhanded insult ways:? "I didn't think you had it in you!" or "None of us would have predicted this!"

?

It means "Pretty good for a guy who's not so bright."

?

If your child is having a slow week or month or year, don't worry.? If your child is having a zippy brilliant period of life where everything's coming up roses and the backswell of music seems always to accompany his glorious exploits, don't expect that to last day in and day out for sixty years.? It won't.? It can't.? It shouldn't. People need to recuperate from stunning performances.

?

Life is lumpy; let it be.

?

Make each moment the best moment it can be.? Be where you are with your body, mind and soul.? It's the only place you can be, anyway.? The rest is fantasy.? You can be here clearly, or you can live in a fog.?? Defog.

?

Here's a gift for you as a parent:? Life will be better for all involved if you don't label your children's intelligence, or processing speed, or likelihood to reverse numbers, or ability to pay attention to something deadly boring.? Don't drug your children into being still enough to sit on an assembly line.? It has nothing on earth to do with natural learning or unschooling.? Neither does "giftedness."

?

Many times parents have assured me that I just don't understand because I "obviously" have never had a gifted child.? I don't argue with them.? Some of them end up back in cahoots with school again, and others end up coming back and saying they wish they could undo having labeled one child over the others, or having treated a child differently because of a test score.?

?

They would like to undo it, but they can't.? Maybe it's not too late for you and your child.

?

SandraDodd.com/giftedness

?

?is mostly writings of other people but I recently added a chat transcript from 1995, where I had done most of the writing.? It's something I've been thinking about since I was a young.

Jennifer, and others, I'm sorry!!? I didn't see that that was a message to this group.? I treated it as private e-mail, and also quoted it here:?

?

Then today I notice it's sitting here, flagged, ignored...

?

I am very sorry!!!

Also I want to get back to the topic about the frustrated stepdaughter / stepmom (unrelated to this topic or Jennifer Sheldon's post.? And I'm older and tireder than I expect to be, each morning.? ?:-)??

?

It's very sweet that there are still people here.? Thanks.? It's such a treasure, the people, and the years' worth of stories.? Lifetimes of stories, going by the kids' ages.? My youngest, Holly, has been thirty years old for three whole days.

Sweet thoughts to all,

?

Sandra

?

开云体育

THANK YOU.? The cost is covered now, for this group and the website, too.

Twenty people swooped in and provided for all of us.

If you missed this year, calendar-up for October 2022.

If I'm not around, someone contact Holly Dodd or Marta Venturini Machado / Marta Pires / Marta and one of them will take care of things.

Sandra

?

P.S.? It would be more fun if the swooping and providing could involve us all being in one place for a few days, and seeing if there were people willing to go fishing, shopping, to cook, to sing, to play group games with the kids... :-)? Let's let this take the place of that fantasy gathering, and we can all stay safe at home.

?

?

(If this doesn't look like Sandra Dodd's e-mail, it is one.? "AElflaed" is my medieval-studies/SCA name.)

Step back from the word "children" and replace it with "friends" - how does the question change?

There's more there.? Meredith Novak was answering the question.

I saw it here, just a bit ago:?

?

That links to the original which is... [drumroll]

in this group :-)? ?September 2012:??/g/AlwaysLearning/message/69008

Sandra

?

?

Will it work to use regular PayPal and email address? Which email?

?I added a new, better donation button at the top of that page.

The working button is in two places:? Top of??and bottom right of???

Going to paypal without using any links, my address there is Sandra@...

?

Sandra

?

-=-20 years! We’ve all come a long way.
My “kids” are now 27 and 28.-=-

On November 2—pretty soon—my little Holly will turn 30. :-)

I'm still very confident about all the ideas that were polished in this discussion and a few others over the years.? We really took some things apart and examined them from every "But what if..." angle.??

It's nice to see familiar names (and new ones, too).

?

Sandra

PayPal, as with other things, used to be simpler. :-)? And I, as with other things, used to be younger.

I put the old, plain payment button on the donation page, and I'm going to put the code here just in case it will work directly.?? (never mind now :-) )?

?

?