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Re: THE ELUSIVE ORIGINS OF THE SERENITY PRAYER…..

 

I don't know when this was written, but AA has been using the Serenity Prayer for longer than fifty years.

The prayer has been an interest of mine since I came into AA in the early 1990s.? Niebuhr's daughter, since deceased, wrote a book? "The Serenity Prayer," in which she confirms her mother's take on the authorship of it.? I would note in the discussion of the prayer in this post no mention is made of the second verse that so often accompanies the first verse.? I can find in my research no reference to the second verse before the 1950s, so it was a later addition, not an original part of the prayer.

I don't know if most people are aware that two versions of the prayer are in the 12&12.? The first on p. 41 in Step Three and the second on p. 125 in Step Twelve.? The differences between the two versions are that the one on p. 41 uses first person singular pronouns and the version on p. 125 uses first person plural pronouns.? These versions are the official AA versions as it is they that appear in Conference Approved Literature.? My favorite version is the original one that starts, "God, give us grace . . ."

This is an excellent article and I appreciate the effort put into producing it.

Tommy H
Danville, KY


On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 4:55?AM First 164 and More.... <first164andmore@...> wrote:

For many years, long after the Serenity Prayer became attached to the very fabric of the Fellowship's life and thought, its exact origin, its actual author, have played a tantalizing game of hide and seek with researchers, both in and out of A.A. The facts of how it came to be used by A.A. a half century ago, are much easier to pinpoint.

?

Early in 1942, writes Bill W., in AA. Comes of Age, a New York member, jack, brought to everyone's attention a caption in a routine New York Herald Tribune obituary that read:

?

God grant us the serenity to accept

the things we cannot change,

courage to change the things we can,

and wisdom to know the difference.

?

Everyone in A.A.'s burgeoning office on Manhattan's Vesey Street was struck by the power and Wisdom contained in the prayer's thoughts. "Never had we seen so much A.A. in so few words," Bill writes. Someone suggested that the prayer be printed on a small, wallet sized card, to be included in every piece of outgoing mail. Ruth Hock, the Fellowship's first (and nonalcoholic) secretary, contacted Henry S., a Washington D.C. member, and a professional printer, asking him what it would cost to order a bulk printing.

?

Henry's enthusiastic response was to print 500 copies of the prayer, with the remark: “Incidentally, I am only a heel when I'm drunk ... so naturally, there could be no charge for anything of this nature."

?

"With amazing speed," writes Bill, "the Serenity Prayer came into general use and took its place alongside our two other favorites, the Lord's Prayer and the Prayer of St. Francis."

?

Thus did the "accidental" noticing of an unattributed prayer, printed alongside a simple obituary of an unknown individual, open the way toward the prayer's?daily use by thousands upon thousands of A.A.s worldwide.

?

But despite years of research by numerous individuals, the exact origin of the prayer is shrouded in overlays of history, even mystery. Moreover, eve1y time a researcher appears to uncover the definitive source, another one crops up to refute the former's claim, at the same time that it raises new, intriguing facts.

?

What is undisputed is the claim of authorship by the theologian Or. Rheinhold Niebuhr, who recounted to interviewers on several occasions that he had written the prayer as a "tag line" to a sermon he had delivered on Practical Christianity. Yet even Dr. Niebuhr added at least a touch of doubt to his claim, when he told one interviewer, "Of course, it may heve been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself."

?

Early in World War II, with Dr. Niebuhr's permission, the prayer was printed on cards and distributed to the troops by the U.S.O. By then it had also been reprinted by the National Council of Churches, as well as Alcoholics Anonymous.

?

Dr. Niebuhr was quite accurate in suggesting that the prayer may have been "spooking around'' for centuries. "No one can tell for sure who first wrote the Serenity Prayer," writes Bill in A.A. Comes of Age. "Some say it came from the early Greeks; others think it was from the pen of an anonymous English poet; still others claim it was written by an American Naval officer ... . " Other attributions have gone as far afield as ancient Sanskrit texts, Aristotle, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and Spinoza. One A.A. member came across the Roman philosopher Cicero's Six Mistakes of Man, one of which reads: "The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected."

?

No one has actually found the prayer's text among the writings of these alleged, original sources. What are probably truly ancient, as with the above quote from Cicero, are the prayer's themes of acceptance, courage to change what can be changed and the free letting go of what is out of one's ability to change.

?

The search for pinpointing origins of the prayer has been like the peeling of an onion. For example, in july 1964, the A.A. Grapevine received a clipping of an article that had appeared in the Paris Herald Tribune, by the paper's correspondent in Koblenz, then in West Germany. "In a rather dreary hall of a converted hotel, overlooking the Rhine at Koblenz,," the correspondent wrote, " . .. is a tablet inscribed with the following words:

?

'God give me the detachment to accept those things

I cannot alter; the courage to alter those things I can

alter; and the ·wisdom to distinguish the one thing

from the other.' "

?

These words were attributed, the correspondent wrote, to an 18th century pietist, Friedrich Oetinger (1702-1782). Moreover, the plaque was affixed to a wall in a hall where modern day troops and company commanders of the new German army were trained "in the princip1es of management and . . . behavior of the soldier citizen m a democratic state."

?

Here, at last, thought A.A. researchers, was concrete evidence-quote, author, date-of the Serenity Prayer's? original source. That conviction went unchallenged for fifteen years. Then in 1979 came material, shared with G.S.O.'s Beth K., by Peter T., of Berlin. Peter's research threw the authenticity of 18th century authorship out the window. But it also added more tantalizing facts about the plaque's origin.

?

"The first form of the prayer," Beth wrote back, originated with Boethius, the Roman philosopher ( 480-524 A.D.), and author of the book, Consolations of Philosophy. The prayer's thoughts were used from then on by "religious-like people who had to suffer first by the English, later the Prussian puritans ... then the Pietists from southwest Germany ... then A.A.s ... and through them, the West Germans after the Second World War.”

?

Moreover, Beth continued, after the war, a north German university professor, Dr. Theodor Wilhelm, who had started a revival of spiritual life in West Germany, had acquired the "little prayer" from Canadian soldiers. He had written a book in which he had included the prayer, without attribution, but which resulted in the prayer's appearance in many different places, such as army officer's halls, schools and other institutions. The professor's nom de plume? Friedrich Oetinger, the 18th century pietist! Wilhelm had apparently selected the pseudonym Oetinger out of admiration of his south German forebears.

?

Back in 1957, another G.S.O. staff member, Anita R., browsing in a New York bookstore, came upon a beautifully bordered card, on which was printed:

?

"Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, give us Serenity

to accept what cannot be changed, Courage to change

what should be changed, and Wisdom to know the

one from the other; through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

?

The card, which came from a bookshop in England, called it the "General's Prayer," dating it back to the fourteenth century!

?

There are still other claims, and no doubt more unearthing will continue for years to come. In any event, Mrs. Reinhold Niebuhr told an interviewer that her husband was definitely the prayer's author, that she had seen the piece of paper on which he had written it, and that her husband- now that there were numerous variations of wording- "used and preferred" the following form:

?

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed,

Courage to change the things which should be changed,

and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."

?

While all of these searching are intriguing, challenging, even mysterious, they pale in significance when compared to the fact that, for fifty years, the prayer: has become so deeply imbedded into the heart and soul of A.A. thinking, living, as well as its philosophy, that one could almost believe that the prayer originated in the A.A. experience itself.

?

Bill made this very point years ago, in thanking an A.A. friend for the plaque upon which the prayer was inscribed: "In creating A.A., the Serenity Prayer has?been a most valuable building block- indeed a cornerstone."

?

And speaking of cornerstones, and mysteries and "coincidences"–the building where G.S.O. is now located borders on a stretch of' New York City's 120th St., between Riverside Drive and · Broadway (where the Union Theological Seminary is situated). It's called Reinhold Niebuhr Place.

Be Kind Wherever Possible!!!
Even No One Is Looking!!!
(((((((((((((((and it is))))))))))))))
Always Possible Everywhere!!!
?

?

Grateful to be in AA Service - Kesavan C (K7)
?
Re: THE ELUSIVE ORIGINS OF THE SERENITY PRAYER…..

 

Another little tidbit on the Serenity Prayer getting started in AA...the man named Jack mentioned (who brought the article to Ruth Hock) was a brother to actor Art Carney who played buddy to Jackie Gleason on his show "The Honeymooners"

_Pat Murphy
Cedar Rapids, Ia


From: "First 164 and More...." <first164andmore@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47:59 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] THE ELUSIVE ORIGINS OF THE SERENITY PRAYER…..

For many years, long after the Serenity Prayer became attached to the very fabric of the Fellowship's life and thought, its exact origin, its actual author, have played a tantalizing game of hide and seek with researchers, both in and out of A.A. The facts of how it came to be used by A.A. a half century ago, are much easier to pinpoint.

?

Early in 1942, writes Bill W., in AA. Comes of Age, a New York member, jack, brought to everyone's attention a caption in a routine New York Herald Tribune obituary that read:

?

God grant us the serenity to accept

the things we cannot change,

courage to change the things we can,

and wisdom to know the difference.

?

Everyone in A.A.'s burgeoning office on Manhattan's Vesey Street was struck by the power and Wisdom contained in the prayer's thoughts. "Never had we seen so much A.A. in so few words," Bill writes. Someone suggested that the prayer be printed on a small, wallet sized card, to be included in every piece of outgoing mail. Ruth Hock, the Fellowship's first (and nonalcoholic) secretary, contacted Henry S., a Washington D.C. member, and a professional printer, asking him what it would cost to order a bulk printing.

?

Henry's enthusiastic response was to print 500 copies of the prayer, with the remark: “Incidentally, I am only a heel when I'm drunk ... so naturally, there could be no charge for anything of this nature."

?

"With amazing speed," writes Bill, "the Serenity Prayer came into general use and took its place alongside our two other favorites, the Lord's Prayer and the Prayer of St. Francis."

?

Thus did the "accidental" noticing of an unattributed prayer, printed alongside a simple obituary of an unknown individual, open the way toward the prayer's?daily use by thousands upon thousands of A.A.s worldwide.

?

But despite years of research by numerous individuals, the exact origin of the prayer is shrouded in overlays of history, even mystery. Moreover, eve1y time a researcher appears to uncover the definitive source, another one crops up to refute the former's claim, at the same time that it raises new, intriguing facts.

?

What is undisputed is the claim of authorship by the theologian Or. Rheinhold Niebuhr, who recounted to interviewers on several occasions that he had written the prayer as a "tag line" to a sermon he had delivered on Practical Christianity. Yet even Dr. Niebuhr added at least a touch of doubt to his claim, when he told one interviewer, "Of course, it may heve been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself."

?

Early in World War II, with Dr. Niebuhr's permission, the prayer was printed on cards and distributed to the troops by the U.S.O. By then it had also been reprinted by the National Council of Churches, as well as Alcoholics Anonymous.

?

Dr. Niebuhr was quite accurate in suggesting that the prayer may have been "spooking around'' for centuries. "No one can tell for sure who first wrote the Serenity Prayer," writes Bill in A.A. Comes of Age. "Some say it came from the early Greeks; others think it was from the pen of an anonymous English poet; still others claim it was written by an American Naval officer ... . " Other attributions have gone as far afield as ancient Sanskrit texts, Aristotle, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and Spinoza. One A.A. member came across the Roman philosopher Cicero's Six Mistakes of Man, one of which reads: "The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected."

?

No one has actually found the prayer's text among the writings of these alleged, original sources. What are probably truly ancient, as with the above quote from Cicero, are the prayer's themes of acceptance, courage to change what can be changed and the free letting go of what is out of one's ability to change.

?

The search for pinpointing origins of the prayer has been like the peeling of an onion. For example, in july 1964, the A.A. Grapevine received a clipping of an article that had appeared in the Paris Herald Tribune, by the paper's correspondent in Koblenz, then in West Germany. "In a rather dreary hall of a converted hotel, overlooking the Rhine at Koblenz,," the correspondent wrote, " . .. is a tablet inscribed with the following words:

?

'God give me the detachment to accept those things

I cannot alter; the courage to alter those things I can

alter; and the ·wisdom to distinguish the one thing

from the other.' "

?

These words were attributed, the correspondent wrote, to an 18th century pietist, Friedrich Oetinger (1702-1782). Moreover, the plaque was affixed to a wall in a hall where modern day troops and company commanders of the new German army were trained "in the princip1es of management and . . . behavior of the soldier citizen m a democratic state."

?

Here, at last, thought A.A. researchers, was concrete evidence-quote, author, date-of the Serenity Prayer's? original source. That conviction went unchallenged for fifteen years. Then in 1979 came material, shared with G.S.O.'s Beth K., by Peter T., of Berlin. Peter's research threw the authenticity of 18th century authorship out the window. But it also added more tantalizing facts about the plaque's origin.

?

"The first form of the prayer," Beth wrote back, originated with Boethius, the Roman philosopher ( 480-524 A.D.), and author of the book, Consolations of Philosophy. The prayer's thoughts were used from then on by "religious-like people who had to suffer first by the English, later the Prussian puritans ... then the Pietists from southwest Germany ... then A.A.s ... and through them, the West Germans after the Second World War.”

?

Moreover, Beth continued, after the war, a north German university professor, Dr. Theodor Wilhelm, who had started a revival of spiritual life in West Germany, had acquired the "little prayer" from Canadian soldiers. He had written a book in which he had included the prayer, without attribution, but which resulted in the prayer's appearance in many different places, such as army officer's halls, schools and other institutions. The professor's nom de plume? Friedrich Oetinger, the 18th century pietist! Wilhelm had apparently selected the pseudonym Oetinger out of admiration of his south German forebears.

?

Back in 1957, another G.S.O. staff member, Anita R., browsing in a New York bookstore, came upon a beautifully bordered card, on which was printed:

?

"Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, give us Serenity

to accept what cannot be changed, Courage to change

what should be changed, and Wisdom to know the

one from the other; through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

?

The card, which came from a bookshop in England, called it the "General's Prayer," dating it back to the fourteenth century!

?

There are still other claims, and no doubt more unearthing will continue for years to come. In any event, Mrs. Reinhold Niebuhr told an interviewer that her husband was definitely the prayer's author, that she had seen the piece of paper on which he had written it, and that her husband- now that there were numerous variations of wording- "used and preferred" the following form:

?

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed,

Courage to change the things which should be changed,

and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."

?

While all of these searching are intriguing, challenging, even mysterious, they pale in significance when compared to the fact that, for fifty years, the prayer: has become so deeply imbedded into the heart and soul of A.A. thinking, living, as well as its philosophy, that one could almost believe that the prayer originated in the A.A. experience itself.

?

Bill made this very point years ago, in thanking an A.A. friend for the plaque upon which the prayer was inscribed: "In creating A.A., the Serenity Prayer has?been a most valuable building block- indeed a cornerstone."

?

And speaking of cornerstones, and mysteries and "coincidences"–the building where G.S.O. is now located borders on a stretch of' New York City's 120th St., between Riverside Drive and · Broadway (where the Union Theological Seminary is situated). It's called Reinhold Niebuhr Place.

Be Kind Wherever Possible!!!
Even No One Is Looking!!!
(((((((((((((((and it is))))))))))))))
Always Possible Everywhere!!!
?

?

Grateful to be in AA Service - Kesavan C (K7)
?
Doctor in Keys to the Kingdom

 

Hi all, was wondering if anyone had any information on the Doctor who brought Sylvia K a copy of the Big Book as mentioned in the story 'Keys to the Kingdom'?
Thanks and have a Great day
?Will


Will Embrey
wille5526@...
315-398-8456
When Rowland Hazard was first treated by Dr. Jung

 

Dear AA history friends and buffs,

Rowland Hazard was first treated by doctor Carl Jung in 1926--not 1931 as is generally thought. This date is? important because it was the first event leading directly to the beginning of AA? e.g.: Doctor Jung told Rowland Hazard that his alcoholic recovery was dependent on a vital spiritual experience (p. 27 of the Big Book). Rowland was sober in 1934 when he carried his recovery message to Ebby Thacher during the summer of? 1934.? ?Ebby then carried his sober message to Bill Wilson later that year. Of course, Bill carried his sober message to Dr. Bob during the summer of 1935. and you know the rest of the story. (Yes, the spellings of Rowland Hazard and Ebby Thacher are correct).?

To research the authentication of this article, please Google: STELLAR FIRE, by Cora Finch.??
Then, click the top choice: STELLAR FIRE:CARL JUNG, NEW ENGLAND FAMILY AND THE RISKS OF . . . .?
Then read pages 14 thru 19.
I believe you will find the entire article of interest.?

Bob S
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, IN ?47374
(765) 935-0130

--
Bob S
THE ELUSIVE ORIGINS OF THE SERENITY PRAYER…..

 

For many years, long after the Serenity Prayer became attached to the very fabric of the Fellowship's life and thought, its exact origin, its actual author, have played a tantalizing game of hide and seek with researchers, both in and out of A.A. The facts of how it came to be used by A.A. a half century ago, are much easier to pinpoint.

?

Early in 1942, writes Bill W., in AA. Comes of Age, a New York member, jack, brought to everyone's attention a caption in a routine New York Herald Tribune obituary that read:

?

God grant us the serenity to accept

the things we cannot change,

courage to change the things we can,

and wisdom to know the difference.

?

Everyone in A.A.'s burgeoning office on Manhattan's Vesey Street was struck by the power and Wisdom contained in the prayer's thoughts. "Never had we seen so much A.A. in so few words," Bill writes. Someone suggested that the prayer be printed on a small, wallet sized card, to be included in every piece of outgoing mail. Ruth Hock, the Fellowship's first (and nonalcoholic) secretary, contacted Henry S., a Washington D.C. member, and a professional printer, asking him what it would cost to order a bulk printing.

?

Henry's enthusiastic response was to print 500 copies of the prayer, with the remark: “Incidentally, I am only a heel when I'm drunk ... so naturally, there could be no charge for anything of this nature."

?

"With amazing speed," writes Bill, "the Serenity Prayer came into general use and took its place alongside our two other favorites, the Lord's Prayer and the Prayer of St. Francis."

?

Thus did the "accidental" noticing of an unattributed prayer, printed alongside a simple obituary of an unknown individual, open the way toward the prayer's?daily use by thousands upon thousands of A.A.s worldwide.

?

But despite years of research by numerous individuals, the exact origin of the prayer is shrouded in overlays of history, even mystery. Moreover, eve1y time a researcher appears to uncover the definitive source, another one crops up to refute the former's claim, at the same time that it raises new, intriguing facts.

?

What is undisputed is the claim of authorship by the theologian Or. Rheinhold Niebuhr, who recounted to interviewers on several occasions that he had written the prayer as a "tag line" to a sermon he had delivered on Practical Christianity. Yet even Dr. Niebuhr added at least a touch of doubt to his claim, when he told one interviewer, "Of course, it may heve been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself."

?

Early in World War II, with Dr. Niebuhr's permission, the prayer was printed on cards and distributed to the troops by the U.S.O. By then it had also been reprinted by the National Council of Churches, as well as Alcoholics Anonymous.

?

Dr. Niebuhr was quite accurate in suggesting that the prayer may have been "spooking around'' for centuries. "No one can tell for sure who first wrote the Serenity Prayer," writes Bill in A.A. Comes of Age. "Some say it came from the early Greeks; others think it was from the pen of an anonymous English poet; still others claim it was written by an American Naval officer ... . " Other attributions have gone as far afield as ancient Sanskrit texts, Aristotle, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and Spinoza. One A.A. member came across the Roman philosopher Cicero's Six Mistakes of Man, one of which reads: "The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected."

?

No one has actually found the prayer's text among the writings of these alleged, original sources. What are probably truly ancient, as with the above quote from Cicero, are the prayer's themes of acceptance, courage to change what can be changed and the free letting go of what is out of one's ability to change.

?

The search for pinpointing origins of the prayer has been like the peeling of an onion. For example, in july 1964, the A.A. Grapevine received a clipping of an article that had appeared in the Paris Herald Tribune, by the paper's correspondent in Koblenz, then in West Germany. "In a rather dreary hall of a converted hotel, overlooking the Rhine at Koblenz,," the correspondent wrote, " . .. is a tablet inscribed with the following words:

?

'God give me the detachment to accept those things

I cannot alter; the courage to alter those things I can

alter; and the ·wisdom to distinguish the one thing

from the other.' "

?

These words were attributed, the correspondent wrote, to an 18th century pietist, Friedrich Oetinger (1702-1782). Moreover, the plaque was affixed to a wall in a hall where modern day troops and company commanders of the new German army were trained "in the princip1es of management and . . . behavior of the soldier citizen m a democratic state."

?

Here, at last, thought A.A. researchers, was concrete evidence-quote, author, date-of the Serenity Prayer's? original source. That conviction went unchallenged for fifteen years. Then in 1979 came material, shared with G.S.O.'s Beth K., by Peter T., of Berlin. Peter's research threw the authenticity of 18th century authorship out the window. But it also added more tantalizing facts about the plaque's origin.

?

"The first form of the prayer," Beth wrote back, originated with Boethius, the Roman philosopher ( 480-524 A.D.), and author of the book, Consolations of Philosophy. The prayer's thoughts were used from then on by "religious-like people who had to suffer first by the English, later the Prussian puritans ... then the Pietists from southwest Germany ... then A.A.s ... and through them, the West Germans after the Second World War.”

?

Moreover, Beth continued, after the war, a north German university professor, Dr. Theodor Wilhelm, who had started a revival of spiritual life in West Germany, had acquired the "little prayer" from Canadian soldiers. He had written a book in which he had included the prayer, without attribution, but which resulted in the prayer's appearance in many different places, such as army officer's halls, schools and other institutions. The professor's nom de plume? Friedrich Oetinger, the 18th century pietist! Wilhelm had apparently selected the pseudonym Oetinger out of admiration of his south German forebears.

?

Back in 1957, another G.S.O. staff member, Anita R., browsing in a New York bookstore, came upon a beautifully bordered card, on which was printed:

?

"Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, give us Serenity

to accept what cannot be changed, Courage to change

what should be changed, and Wisdom to know the

one from the other; through Jesus Christ, our Lord."

?

The card, which came from a bookshop in England, called it the "General's Prayer," dating it back to the fourteenth century!

?

There are still other claims, and no doubt more unearthing will continue for years to come. In any event, Mrs. Reinhold Niebuhr told an interviewer that her husband was definitely the prayer's author, that she had seen the piece of paper on which he had written it, and that her husband- now that there were numerous variations of wording- "used and preferred" the following form:

?

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed,

Courage to change the things which should be changed,

and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."

?

While all of these searching are intriguing, challenging, even mysterious, they pale in significance when compared to the fact that, for fifty years, the prayer: has become so deeply imbedded into the heart and soul of A.A. thinking, living, as well as its philosophy, that one could almost believe that the prayer originated in the A.A. experience itself.

?

Bill made this very point years ago, in thanking an A.A. friend for the plaque upon which the prayer was inscribed: "In creating A.A., the Serenity Prayer has?been a most valuable building block- indeed a cornerstone."

?

And speaking of cornerstones, and mysteries and "coincidences"–the building where G.S.O. is now located borders on a stretch of' New York City's 120th St., between Riverside Drive and · Broadway (where the Union Theological Seminary is situated). It's called Reinhold Niebuhr Place.

Be Kind Wherever Possible!!!
Even No One Is Looking!!!
(((((((((((((((and it is))))))))))))))
Always Possible Everywhere!!!
?

?

Grateful to be in AA Service - Kesavan C (K7)
?

en_box459_aug-sept92.pdf
en_box459_aug-sept92.pdf

Christine and Gilman Wilson

 
Edited

I might be stretching the boundaries of AA history here, if so, I apologize.? I am hoping someone with an interest in and knowledge of Bill's family might be able to shed light on a few items I discovered.
The story had always been told to me that Gilman, Bill's father, took him on a wagon ride up into the mountains and told him, while drunk, that he was leaving and that Bill should take care of his mother and his sister.? And then off he went to British Columbia Canada.? I was somewhat surprised to see that he, Gilman, married his 2nd wife, Christine, in Iowa and not Canada.? On the marriage paperwork it does show Gilman's residence as BC Canada, while Christine's is shown as Westside Iowa.? The marriage was conducted at Christine's parent's house.? The wedding notice indicates that they will make their home at Marblehead, Lardo, BC, Canada after July 8th (Marriage announcement in The Leavenworth Times, 7 June 1914). This makes me wonder how and under what circumstances Gilman met Christine?? Was it in Canada? Was it in Iowa? She had one time been a high school teacher in Leavenworth Kansas, was it there?? Is there anything in Bill's writings that might shed light on this?? I know Bill was not all that close to his father, so he may have never even addressed it.
Which leads me to a second intriguing, to me, point.? It appears from Gilman's obituary that he had a nephew, Milton Bradstreet.? From my research it appears that this was actually Christine's nephew, her sister Annette's son.? Annette and her husband, Eugene Bradstreet, died rather young, separately, but they left Milton parentless at the age of 5. According to Milton (middle name Bock, his mother and aunt's maiden name) Bradstreet's obituary, he was raised by Christine and Gilmon, although their names are misrepresented in the obituary. "Brad (his nickname) was born on March 29th 1907, on a farm in Westside Iowa, but was raised by Christine and William Gillman on a lumber mill in Alberta Canada following the early death of both parents."? I guess my question is did Bill ever make mention of Milton anywhere in his correspondence? Milton lived a long full life until his death in 2001. Makes me wonder how Bill felt about his father not only leaving to start a new family, but raising another boy as his own.??
I understand if these inquiries fall outside the realm of AA history lovers, but I figured why not ask any way and see what happens.? Thank you all.

[Moderator comment: Interesting topic, let's see where it goes. -Thom R.]
File Notifications #file-notice

Group Notification
 

Thom R. <thomr021092@...> added folder /Newsletters

The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.

By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>

Description:
The complete FIDOnet newsletter archives, current as of March 20, 2023. MOre information at https://www.fidonet.org/
Re: Bill White

 

His papers are now at??

It also has his contact information?

Contact

Mailing Address for General Correspondence


William L. White
Emeritus Sr. Research Consultant
Chestnut Health Systems
3329 Sunset Key Circle #203
Punta Gorda, FL 33955

Email:?bwhite@...

Mailing Address for Donations of Historical Books, Artifacts and Professional Papers


William L. White
Illinois Addiction Studies Archives
448 Wylie Drive
Normal, IL USA 61761

Email:?bwhite@...

jim


On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 8:14?AM James Ivey <jamesiv1@...> wrote:
Anyone know how to get in touch with "Slaying the Dragon" William/Bill White?

Email address would be great.

James in Dallas
Re: Bill White

 

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Nevermind... I found it :o)

On 3/20/2023 8:07 AM, James Ivey wrote:

Anyone know how to get in touch with "Slaying the Dragon" William/Bill White?

Email address would be great.

James in Dallas
Re: Bill White

 

James, According to Chestnut.org, this is his EM:


bwhite@...

Don.
On Monday, March 20, 2023, 09:14:35 AM EDT, James Ivey <jamesiv1@...> wrote:


Anyone know how to get in touch with "Slaying the Dragon" William/Bill White?

Email address would be great.

James in Dallas
Bill White

 

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Anyone know how to get in touch with "Slaying the Dragon" William/Bill White?

Email address would be great.

James in Dallas
"Building a tent around the circus"

 

This morning I heard a quote attributed to Bill WIlson, and wondered if anyone has a suggestion about where I could look for the source. (I'm not 100% convinced it is really something Bill Wilson said, but I am curious to find out if I can.)?

Here's the quote/paraphrase: Writing the Traditions?was building a tent around the circus.

Thanks?for any guidance you can provide.

ann
—
Ann Norcross
(919) 414-6305 mobile
The White Paper - ON THE MATTER OF A.A. ATHEIST/AGNOSTIC GROUPS

 

I thoroughly enjoyed Jackie B's presentation on AA Orthodoxy at the weekly history meeting on Tuesday.
I learned about "the white paper' . I found it on the internet (on aaagnostica oddly enough) and read it.

Does anyone know the origins of it? And was it discussed much?
I don't remember hearing about it.
Re: Henrietta Seiberling

 

The wedding announcement for Henrietta says her parents are from El Paso and NYC.?
--
Duane R-H

Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/How-AA-Came-to-Los-Angeles.pdf uploaded #file-notice

 

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image0.jpeg
I found this at the end of thise stories. Jack.

On Feb 5, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Gene <califxr650l@...> wrote:

?
Pamphlet is wrong. Its Pat Cooper. I found this at ine of the biographies webpages:

Lone Endeavor — Pat Cooper
Los Angeles, California
p. 391, in 1st printing of 1st edition. Removed from 2nd printing
Pat first stopped drinking in January 1939.
Bill Wilson, Ruth Hock, and Hank Parkhurst were sending copies of the manuscript around the country to friends for comment. A copy reached the hands of Pat’s mother, and Pat read it. He then arranged to be hospitalized for detoxification “to get the liquor out of my system and start the new idea right.”
On about February 27, 1939, six weeks after leaving the hospital on January 15, 1939, he wrote a letter to The Alcoholic Foundation in New York saying he had recovered.
?
152 BIOGRAPHIES OF THE AUTHORS
He thanked them for the draft of the book which he had read cover to cover. He told them how he had started drinking in 1917, about his service in World War I how his drinking continued in France and after he got back home from the war. The following 15 years were “one drunk after another.”
He enlisted in the Marine Corp. At first he drank very little and was promoted to Gunnery Sergeant. But he started drinking heavily again and was reduced in rank, then sent to China (which didn’t help his drinking problem any). He did not reenlist.
After he returned, his wife left him because of his drinking, and he couldn’t hold a job. He married again, but his wife and mother were worried about his drinking.
Then he told how his mother had heard of A.A in an article published by a doctor, and had written the doctor for information. He turned the letter over to A.A., which, of course, had immediately responded.
Pat’s letter said he was already reaching out to help other alcoholics.
So they sent him a wire asking his permission to use the letter anonymously in the book, as the first example of what might be accomplished without personal contact. He

THE STORIES IN THE BIG BOOK 153
wired back the next day: “Permission granted with pleasure. Lots of Luck.”
This was the first time anyone had sobered up just from reading the book, so everyone was very excited. After the exchange of correspondence, which appears in the first edition, a collection was taken up to buy a bus ticket to bring him to New York.
When the bus showed up in New York, a man fitting his given description did NOT exit the vehicle. Confused, the welcoming party asked the driver if he had seen a man of the description aboard the bus at any time. He replied that the man was sleeping it off UNDER the back seat! So the story was removed from the second printing of the Big Book.
In the MSCA Archives is a letter from Kaye Miller, a non-alcoholic who started the first A.A. meeting in LA, to Bill Wilson in New York. Bill had asked her to put on paper her early recollection of A.A. in Southern California. He also asked about Pat Cooper. In this 1944 letter she writes that Pat was attending meetings again and had been sober about a year.
The story was ghost written by Ruth Hock, Bill Wilson’s secretary, from correspondence
between the New York office and Pat and his mother.


On Feb 5, 2023, at 12:46 PM, brian.koch via groups.io <brian.koch@...> wrote:

?The Los Angeles pamphlet mentions "Pete C" as the author of "The Lone Endeavor", purported to be the first individual to get sober through use of the book exclusively.? From what I have read in the available literature and references, his name was actually Pat C.? Which is correct, the pamphlet or the information I have?

Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/How-AA-Came-to-Los-Angeles.pdf uploaded #file-notice

 

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Pamphlet is wrong. Its Pat Cooper. I found this at ine of the biographies webpages:

Lone Endeavor — Pat Cooper
Los Angeles, California
p. 391, in 1st printing of 1st edition. Removed from 2nd printing
Pat first stopped drinking in January 1939.
Bill Wilson, Ruth Hock, and Hank Parkhurst were sending copies of the manuscript around the country to friends for comment. A copy reached the hands of Pat’s mother, and Pat read it. He then arranged to be hospitalized for detoxification “to get the liquor out of my system and start the new idea right.”
On about February 27, 1939, six weeks after leaving the hospital on January 15, 1939, he wrote a letter to The Alcoholic Foundation in New York saying he had recovered.
?
152 BIOGRAPHIES OF THE AUTHORS
He thanked them for the draft of the book which he had read cover to cover. He told them how he had started drinking in 1917, about his service in World War I how his drinking continued in France and after he got back home from the war. The following 15 years were “one drunk after another.”
He enlisted in the Marine Corp. At first he drank very little and was promoted to Gunnery Sergeant. But he started drinking heavily again and was reduced in rank, then sent to China (which didn’t help his drinking problem any). He did not reenlist.
After he returned, his wife left him because of his drinking, and he couldn’t hold a job. He married again, but his wife and mother were worried about his drinking.
Then he told how his mother had heard of A.A in an article published by a doctor, and had written the doctor for information. He turned the letter over to A.A., which, of course, had immediately responded.
Pat’s letter said he was already reaching out to help other alcoholics.
So they sent him a wire asking his permission to use the letter anonymously in the book, as the first example of what might be accomplished without personal contact. He

THE STORIES IN THE BIG BOOK 153
wired back the next day: “Permission granted with pleasure. Lots of Luck.”
This was the first time anyone had sobered up just from reading the book, so everyone was very excited. After the exchange of correspondence, which appears in the first edition, a collection was taken up to buy a bus ticket to bring him to New York.
When the bus showed up in New York, a man fitting his given description did NOT exit the vehicle. Confused, the welcoming party asked the driver if he had seen a man of the description aboard the bus at any time. He replied that the man was sleeping it off UNDER the back seat! So the story was removed from the second printing of the Big Book.
In the MSCA Archives is a letter from Kaye Miller, a non-alcoholic who started the first A.A. meeting in LA, to Bill Wilson in New York. Bill had asked her to put on paper her early recollection of A.A. in Southern California. He also asked about Pat Cooper. In this 1944 letter she writes that Pat was attending meetings again and had been sober about a year.
The story was ghost written by Ruth Hock, Bill Wilson’s secretary, from correspondence
between the New York office and Pat and his mother.


On Feb 5, 2023, at 12:46 PM, brian.koch via groups.io <brian.koch@...> wrote:

?The Los Angeles pamphlet mentions "Pete C" as the author of "The Lone Endeavor", purported to be the first individual to get sober through use of the book exclusively.? From what I have read in the available literature and references, his name was actually Pat C.? Which is correct, the pamphlet or the information I have?_._,_._,_

--
Eugene Lane
Redondo Bch Ca
Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/How-AA-Came-to-Los-Angeles.pdf uploaded #file-notice

 

The Los Angeles pamphlet mentions "Pete C" as the author of "The Lone Endeavor", purported to be the first individual to get sober through use of the book exclusively.? From what I have read in the available literature and references, his name was actually Pat C.? Which is correct, the pamphlet or the information I have?
My Bottle My Resentments And Me, 3rd & 4th Editions story #event

Andrew Legare
 

I usually look for backstory of AA Big Book story authors but recently when I read My Bottle My Resentments And Me again and decided to see what I could find out about the author I wasn't able to come up with any one single thing! Does anyone have any insight?! Over the course of many years the author went from hobo-to-Delegate, his wife/girlfriend as well. I am surpirsed that the BB story of someone who became a delegate doesn't seem to have any biographical information available at all! Can anyone offer anything please?
Re: File /Historical and Local Pamphlets/How-AA-Came-to-Los-Angeles.pdf uploaded #file-notice

 
Edited

FYI. The pamphlet is still in print, and may be purchased in their online store and in the office bookstore.? If you go to their office, check out their archives display room.? They always have exhibits of the history of LA AA on display.

4311 Wilshire Blvd., #104

Los Angeles, CA 90010

(323) 936-4343 Ex 2

info@...

staff@...


[Moderator comment: THANK YOU! I am happy to know it is still available. Do you think anyone has any problem with the version I posted? It is readable but nowhere near as good as the original, and not in color. May AAHL keep it up for fair use and for researchers? If you cannot answer this, would you happen to know who could? Thank you! --Thom R. - AAHL Moderator]

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 10:16 AM Group Notification <[email protected]> wrote:

?

The following files and folders have been uploaded to the Files area of the [email protected] group.

By: Thom R. <thomr021092@...>

Description:
How AA Came to Los Angeles - a well-known (local) Los Angeles history pamphlet put out in 1986 by the Southern California Archives Committee. As far as I know, it was never reprinted and original copies in good condition have become quite rare.

?

?

?
Who broke up with who?

James Ivey
 

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Who broke up with who?

Did Bill and the New York drunks decide to leave the Oxford Group? Or did the Oxford Group tell Bill (and Lois?) that "You are not welcome here anymore." which resulted in the split.

My understanding has always been the latter based on:
  1. OG members giving Bill 'guidance' that he disregarded
  2. Bill working only with drunks and probably bringing them to the OG meetings
  3. OG deciding that Bill was not 'maximum'
If anyone can provide some links (or PDF's) pointing to some contemporary documentation that supports which of these occurred I would be very grateful.

James in Dallas
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