Re: Micro Trains and Z Scale
Reminding everyone that this is the "MTL getting out of Z" thread.
Comments in reply to the operating thread will be removed.
That said, is there any online information supporting this?
Greg
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Interesting discussion.
Free-moN ops events (including the Operations Roadshow that the NMRA is hosting) are a really phenomenal development in the hobby.? ? It is a great mix of attention to detail for the modules and the rolling stock AND the operations component.
I have operated at several of these types of events, and I've also operated on several layouts in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and at times was a regular on a few.? ?Life has gotten in the way so I don't do it as much anymore, but I try to at least do the Free-moN stuff these days when I can.
I had moved into Z-scale before Free-moN really took off, primarily because I love modern-ish unit coal and grain trains and *thought* that Z had matured to the point where I could make the move. (it hadn't)? ?When Free-moN "came to town" so to speak, I began to slide back toward N and that's where I'm at now....sort of on the fence.
My take on Ops in Z is this...? ?
I got into Z with EVERY INTENTION of doing ops, and my thoughts have not changed on this goal.? ? First, know that there are different kinds of "ops".? ?My m.o. for what I hope to accomplish eventually is more of "passing sidings" (see unit trains above) with a dispatcher role, and switching of long cuts of covered hoppers in rural settings or "sparse industrial" areas in the vast expanses of the western U.S.? ?Honestly, this is the vibe I've gotten from most Free-moN setups too, and to me that has a better feel than the traditional ops-focused layouts with multiple large yards and expansive industrial districts.? ?But the point is, this operating method lends itself well to Z, as you minimize the exposure to the coupler problem.
Ah the coupler problem.? ?Guess what...it exists in N too.? ?It's exacerbated in Z mostly because of the lighter weight of the cars, but the same argument applies.? It's funny that one of the primary places that N has turned for the best balance of operational excellence and other characteristics like cosmetics and durability is....you guessed it....Z-Scale!? ? The Lee English/Bowser Bucklers have been used extensively by a contingent of N-scalers. (and to a lesser extent we could include the MTL Z couplers in this discussion.)? ?Also, there are some interesting developments with MTL's "True Scale Coupler" including a derivative called the N-Possible that might have applications in Z.? ? So to say that couplers are an insurmountable issue in Z is a little short-sighted.? ?Only change out couplers that are absolutely necessary.? Unit trains or trains that otherwise won't be extensively switched during ops sessions...don't touch them.? Nobody is gonna know or care if you only have MTL or Bowser couplers on a subset of cars.? And if they do, they can find the door.
The other thing is, know that it's ok to simplify.? ?One of the most enjoyable layouts I used to operate on had a very simple ops system....essentially doing 1:1 swaps for switching jobs.? ?It's tough to read reporting marks and road number in N and really impractical in Z.? ?So keeping the ops simple is better on many levels.? ?And if you have coupler problems, roll with it!? ?Make that part of the challenge to get the ops job completed.? Happens in the real world too.? ?Don't take things so seriously!? (says the guy who's writing a dissertation for AZL about BN bethgons....but I digress....? :-o? )? ?But really, if you have to pick up a car the get it to coupler or uncouple, well that beats the heck out of doing it with 2/3 the space of N, and it's doubtful most will care as long as the overall experience is good....i.e. FUN.? ?Ops is a blast, so just develop a good attitude and go for it!
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Malcom - just want you to know that Dave George and I have re-submitted photos of our z-scale layout to the NMRA for consideration for the 2025 calendar just as we did for the 2024 one.? Gerry Leone and Thomas Morrison have acknowledged our entry and I have hope we may be published this year.
?
Rob Klutz - thanks so much for all you do for our z scale hobby!
?
John Buckley
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Greg Elmassian,
I did NOT accuse Rob of "not supporting Z or the future of the hobby".? Please quote me accurately if you think I said something to that?effect.? I did not.? Rob supports Z scale passionately and therefore supports the hobby, and I admire his commitment.? I
accused him of being close-minded on ONE topic, the possible importance?of operating capabilities to the well-rounded future of Z. And "autolatch" couplers unquestionably make operating very difficult.? So difficult?that AZL now offers instructions to convert
some of their locomotives to MTL magnematic couplers.? That is emphatically a step in the right?direction.
Someone disparaged MTL couplers.? Yes, they have their faults (too much slack, occasional physical defects, sensitivity to misalignment, etc.). Which is why it would be nice to see a redesign that addressed those faults coming out on new AZL releases.? Why
has that not been done? Perhaps because it would be an embarrassing admission that something should have been?done long ago.?
As far as having to incessantly clean track, there are some ways to address that problem. First, make sure all your wheels are metal on your rolling stock.? Plastic wheels dirty up track in my experience.? Some of the problems with "dirty" rail is not dirt,
but oxidation on the contact surface.? There is a product that essentially prevents oxidation (I forget the name) but when used properly, trains with metal wheels will run fine for a long?time without much cleaning. ?
Malcolm Cleaveland
MCZ Models
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Interesting comments, Garth. But I¡¯m able to say that even with MTL¡¯s plastic wheels and truck mounted couplers, I¡¯m able to perform switching ops the way I described a few days ago, even if it¡¯s true, the trains I¡¯m running on my layout are short, 15 to 20 cars maximum.
Dom?? Yes ,I have had success with short trains 10 to 15 cars and talgo trucks but, I tend to run double this amount and body mounts with metal wheels work for me. When I first got into Z many of my original cars had body mounts, and I mixed Nn3 cars with Z cars.
Garth
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Interresting comments, Garth. But I¡¯m able to say that even with MTL¡¯s plastic wheels and truck mounted couplers, I¡¯m able to perform switching ops the way I described a few days ago, even if it¡¯s true, the trains I¡¯m running on my layout are short, 15 to 20 cars maximum.
Dom
Le mardi 2 juillet 2024 ¨¤ 16:41:43 UTC+2, Garth Hamilton <garth.a.hamilton@...> a ¨¦crit :
I have to stick my oar in here and drop a penny's worth.? I came to Z
scale by default after modelling Nn3 since 1980 and meeting MrDave and
his layout at the NMRA national convention in 2002.? and joined his crew
along with? Don Avilla and it quickly became a couples gathering
annually for the next decade with 4 or 5 senior couples? Then we were
joined by a young couple from? Houston, the Buckley's.? Over this time
it was obvious to me that Layouts with cute little trains were the thing
that got the scale noticed and were always the big draw, with trains
going round and round and staying on the track. and this is what got
people's attention.
operations:-? yes it can be done in Z
scale but I do not think that sort of operation is going to be a crowd
pleaser, and draw in people, the attraction to Z, for the public, is the
grand vistas on layouts like Mr Daves and SoCal.and others using T
track modules, With long trains running both freight and passenger.?
Track
there are quite a few options to go with tie based , and the roadbed?
brands,some are easier for each modeller to get laid down properly and
operate flawlessly, than others, but there is one thing that I have
learned over time and I learned it first in N? scale and ported it over
to my Z scale operations. and that is, if I want to do switching, the
cars need metal wheels and body mounted couplers.?
Metal
wheels are a costly conversion if you have a fleet of MTL cars, but the
difference is no heavy track cleaning and wheel cleaning required once
the delrin plastic wheels are gone, no grey gunk building up on wheel
treads and being spread all over your track, your engines no longer
operate intermittently, areal bonus for DCC.? Next is no Talgo trucks
with couplers attached, though they do operate better with metal wheels,
they still do not push reliably through points.? There are two things
that make this difficult. Unlike on the real railroad our points do not
nest tightly to the rail they are closing too. and so if there's
pressure on the couple, on a talgo truck it can turn slightly, loading
one flange against the stock rail and then the flange hits the blunt end
of the point rail and climbs up and over the stock rail, causing a
derailment.? This can be avoided if the point rail is formed so it comes
to rest on the web of the rail or drops into a slight notch in the
stock rail, and this can be coupled with tighter positioning of the
guard rail opposite the point of the point rail.? and With body mounted
couplers the trucks are not loading the truck to twist in the rail and
are free to seek the center of the gauge and is less likely to pick a
blunt point rail. On Z scale track, get away from the magnet in the road
bed. It works but there is a steep learning curve to get to work
reliably. The first thing is to set the glad hand to correct the height
above the rail, once you have done this the electromagnetic uncoupler is
marvelous, but why is that so? It is because it sits outside the rails,
so use a magnet that spans the track and ties, now you have the right
magnetic attraction at the right distance from the center between two
coupled couplers and the couplers open easily.? It can be buried under
the roadbed or automated with a servo to lift it up under the roadbed to
the height of the ties for use and dropped down when not required.?
At
80 and ten years post stroke my 2 x 4 ft show module can be run on DC
or DCC, uses Rokuhan track and draws a big crowd to the table it is
sitting on at every show.? I can run 3 trains on separate loops: a
double track main and a single track figure 8.?
The
most common comment I get from the ladies is how cute they are. From
the modellers, I can't believe how well that runs and no derailments and
it's too small for my big hands or for my eyes to put it on the rails.
From the kids, gee this is low enough to see it. ?
To
me at this point I still enjoy running trains at shows and showing what
Z is about and sharing my love for these little trains. At home I still
run N scale with DCC and sound, do switchingand spend countless hours
enjoying the hobby, the only thing I miss I am no longer building things
like my steam engines in N scale or my doodlebugs in Z and N, it has
been a great hobby for 50 years so far and looking forward to a few
more.?
I have to stick my oar in here and drop a penny's worth.? I came to
Z scale by default after modelling Nn3 since 1980 and meeting MrDave
and his layout at the NMRA national convention in 2002.? and joined his
crew along with? Don Avilla and it quickly became a couples gathering
annually for the next decade with 4 or 5 senior couples? Then we were
joined by a young couple from? Houston, the Buckley's.? Over this time
it was obvious to me that Layouts with cute little trains were the thing
that got the scale noticed and were always the big draw, with trains
going round and round and staying on the track. and this is what got
people's attention.
operations:-? yes it can be done in Z
scale but I do not think that sort of operation is going to be a crowd
pleaser, and draw in people, the attraction to Z, for the public, is the
grand vistas on layouts like Mr Daves and SoCal.and others using T
track modules, With long trains running both freight and passenger.?
Track
there are quite a few options to go with tie based , and the roadbed?
brands,some are easier for each modeller to get laid down properly and
operate flawlessly, than others, but there is one thing that I have
learned over time and I learned it first in N? scale and ported it over
to my Z scale operations. and that is, if I want to do switching, the
cars need metal wheels and body mounted couplers.?
Metal
wheels are a costly conversion if you have a fleet of MTL cars, but the
difference is no heavy track cleaning and wheel cleaning required once
the delrin plastic wheels are gone, no grey gunk building up on wheel
treads and being spread all over your track, your engines no longer
operate intermittently, areal bonus for DCC.? Next is no Talgo trucks
with couplers attached, though they do operate better with metal wheels,
they still do not push reliably through points.? There are two things
that make this difficult. Unlike on the real railroad our points do not
nest tightly to the rail they are closing too. and so if there's
pressure on the couple, on a talgo truck it can turn slightly, loading
one flange against the stock rail and then the flange hits the blunt end
of the point rail and climbs up and over the stock rail, causing a
derailment.? This can be avoided if the point rail is formed so it comes
to rest on the web of the rail or drops into a slight notch in the
stock rail, and this can be coupled with tighter positioning of the
guard rail opposite the point of the point rail.? and With body mounted
couplers the trucks are not loading the truck to twist in the rail and
are free to seek the center of the gauge and is less likely to pick a
blunt point rail. On Z scale track, get away from the magnet in the road
bed. It works but there is a steep learning curve to get to work
reliably. The first thing is to set the glad hand to correct the height
above the rail, once you have done this the electromagnetic uncoupler is
marvelous, but why is that so? It is because it sits outside the rails,
so use a magnet that spans the track and ties, now you have the right
magnetic attraction at the right distance from the center between two
coupled couplers and the couplers open easily.? It can be buried under
the roadbed or automated with a servo to lift it up under the roadbed to
the height of the ties for use and dropped down when not required.?
At
80 and ten years post stroke my 2 x 4 ft show module can be run on DC
or DCC, uses Rokuhan track and draws a big crowd to the table it is
sitting on at every show.? I can run 3 trains on separate loops: a
double track main and a single track figure 8.?
The
most common comment I get from the ladies is how cute they are. From
the modellers, I can't believe how well that runs and no derailments and
it's too small for my big hands or for my eyes to put it on the rails.
From the kids, gee this is low enough to see it. ?
To
me at this point I still enjoy running trains at shows and showing what
Z is about and sharing my love for these little trains. At home I still
run N scale with DCC and sound, do switchingand spend countless hours
enjoying the hobby, the only thing I miss I am no longer building things
like my steam engines in N scale or my doodlebugs in Z and N, it has
been a great hobby for 50 years so far and looking forward to a few
more.
cheers Garth.
|
Hello Group Members,
? ?In a recent thread regarding operations in Z scale I have noticed wording that Micro Trains is getting out of Z scale or words to that effect. Has anyone seen or have have documentation from Micro Trains stating such???
Regards
Alan
|
I received noticed yesterday that my new Atlas Z scale cars have shipped. Should be here Saturday! I sure hope Atlas keeps it going. Between Micro Trains, AZL, and now Atlas things sure look good for me and Z scale.
Regards
Alan
|
I have to stick my oar in here and drop a penny's worth.? I came to Z scale by default after modelling Nn3 since 1980 and meeting MrDave and his layout at the NMRA national convention in 2002.? and joined his crew along with? Don Avilla and it quickly became a couples gathering annually for the next decade with 4 or 5 senior couples? Then we were joined by a young couple from? Houston, the Buckley's.? Over this time it was obvious to me that Layouts with cute little trains were the thing that got the scale noticed and were always the big draw, with trains going round and round and staying on the track. and this is what got people's attention.
operations:-? yes it can be done in Z scale but I do not think that sort of operation is going to be a crowd pleaser, and draw in people, the attraction to Z, for the public, is the grand vistas on layouts like Mr Daves and SoCal.and others using T track modules, With long trains running both freight and passenger.?
?
Track there are quite a few options to go with tie based , and the roadbed? brands,some are easier for each modeller to get laid down properly and operate flawlessly, than others, but there is one thing that I have learned over time and I learned it first in N? scale and ported it over to my Z scale operations. and that is, if I want to do switching, the cars need metal wheels and body mounted couplers.?
?
Metal wheels are a costly conversion if you have a fleet of MTL cars, but the difference is no heavy track cleaning and wheel cleaning required once the delrin plastic wheels are gone, no grey gunk building up on wheel treads and being spread all over your track, your engines no longer operate intermittently, areal bonus for DCC.? Next is no Talgo trucks with couplers attached, though they do operate better with metal wheels, they still do not push reliably through points.? There are two things that make this difficult. Unlike on the real railroad our points do not nest tightly to the rail they are closing too. and so if there's pressure on the couple, on a talgo truck it can turn slightly, loading one flange against the stock rail and then the flange hits the blunt end of the point rail and climbs up and over the stock rail, causing a derailment.? This can be avoided if the point rail is formed so it comes to rest on the web of the rail or drops into a slight notch in the stock rail, and this can be coupled with tighter positioning of the guard rail opposite the point of the point rail.? and With body mounted couplers the trucks are not loading the truck to twist in the rail and are free to seek the center of the gauge and is less likely to pick a blunt point rail. On Z scale track, get away from the magnet in the road bed. It works but there is a steep learning curve to get to work reliably. The first thing is to set the glad hand to correct the height above the rail, once you have done this the electromagnetic uncoupler is marvelous, but why is that so? It is because it sits outside the rails, so use a magnet that spans the track and ties, now you have the right magnetic attraction at the right distance from the center between two coupled couplers and the couplers open easily.? It can be buried under the roadbed or automated with a servo to lift it up under the roadbed to the height of the ties for use and dropped down when not required.?
?
At 80 and ten years post stroke my 2 x 4 ft show module can be run on DC or DCC, uses Rokuhan track and draws a big crowd to the table it is sitting on at every show.? I can run 3 trains on separate loops: a double track main and a single track figure 8.?
?
The most common comment I get from the ladies is how cute they are. From the modellers, I can't believe how well that runs and no derailments and it's too small for my big hands or for my eyes to put it on the rails. From the kids, gee this is low enough to see it. ?
?
To me at this point I still enjoy running trains at shows and showing what Z is about and sharing my love for these little trains. At home I still run N scale with DCC and sound, do switchingand spend countless hours enjoying the hobby, the only thing I miss I am no longer building things like my steam engines in N scale or my doodlebugs in Z and N, it has been a great hobby for 50 years so far and looking forward to a few more.?
cheers Garth.
?
|
One man¡¯s option. It is sad when someone can¡¯t see the forest through the trees.
Malcolm, what about Atlas? Do you even realize they produced their first Z scale fright car that was released June??
What about AZL? How many new models have they released recently? Two new products in just 4 weeks!
SD60 - NEW BODY style for July Airslide hoppers - NEW BODY style for June New tooling - SD70Ace - 2024 SD40-2 - new in 2023 Ortner hoppers - new in 2023
Why would AZL put SO much money into the hobby if it weren¡¯t doing very well??
That fact is Malcolm wants to believe Z scale is not succeeding otherwise his point for growth of Z being dependent on operations is mute. It is this kind of negativity and non-factual arguments that I find most disturbing. I spend my life promoting and supporting this scale. All you have to do is look at the forums, and any of the websites I own, and you will see a wealth of new products. All signs are positive, but you have to choose to see them.
Rob
¡°Zeeing is believing¡"
Follow us on Facebook!?
www.facebook.com/ztrackmagazine
Ztrack Magazine Ltd. Distributor for American Z Line Rokuhan, Full Throttle, Archistories, Raildig, Father Nature and others
www.ztrack.com www.ztrackcenter.com www.ztrackresale.com www.azldirect.com
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On Jul 1, 2024, at 9:57?PM, Malcolm Cleaveland via groups.io <mcleavel@...> wrote:
4.Rob Kluz says Z scale is really taking off, maybe becoming as popular as N scale?? But he offers no evidence aside from the fact that he is moving to a larger place.? As a scientist, I would like to see more evidence, such as more retailers carrying Z, more manufacturers offering Z, skyrocketing sales, etc. Perhaps Rob could point these out if they exist.? Unfortunately, with a major Z scale manufacturer, MTL, abandoning Z scale in favor of N scale, the evidence points in the opposite direction. Another major manufacturer (Intermountain) dipped its toe in Z scale with some very nice covered hoppers but found it did not pay and has never released more Z scale.? Intermountain obviously views Z scale as a mistake.? I have been unable to persuade any dealers I've met at train shows to carry any Z scale at all.? So, I see no evidence of Z scale taking off, in fact just the opposite.
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I would caution the participants from making the comments personal. In particular, accusing Rob of not supporting the hobby and future of Z is hard to understand.
Greg
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Hi everyone such an interesting topic but admittedly a divisive topic since we are all so passionate about it!
I have been modelling in Z scale for over twenty years. About two years ago I made the decision to transition to HOn3 focusing on the Denver RioGrande because of some of the following reasons. I'd like to share in bullet points and realise that many are unique given that (a) I live in Singapore in Asia and (b) due to my location and the time I came into the hobby, it was mostly Marklin and I continued in it.
- Many reasons but my one guiding principle has always been that I wanted my layouts to look realistic and run as best as they could be, in terms of details and slow-running. With this in mind, I have to totally agree with an earlier comment that my experience all these years is that z has been 90% maintenance and 10% running. It may be also due to my location (we do have more dust that the US, don't know why) and also that my insistence in having a "realistic" layout results in more turnouts - thus making running a little more challenging than just going in a circle. Not to boast, but my Swiss layout was recently awarded a Marklin prize in their 50 year anniversary competition. Despite that, I ripped it apart last year as I just simply didn't have the patience to clean it every time I wanted to run a train.
- Related to the above, I have also run on DCC - in an effort to get smoother running and slow speeds. I have to admit that I have done this almost exclusively with Marklin locomotives - but again, I am forced to agree with an earlier comment that running on DCC in Z is nowhere near as reliable as it is with other scales. I've spent money to ship my locomotives all over the world to have professional installation; I've installed and burned my own decoders and locomotives, I've purchased and used the drop-in decoders by Velmo and Digitrax (which are the most reliable) - but I still have to say that DCC does work okay but all of my locomotives run really hot and when they don't run or malfunction, trying to troubleshoot them has not been straightforward. I do not recommend this to new users.
- As I grow into my fifties, painting z people, weathering z building and nailing z nails in track is becoming too challenging to be rewarding. Coupled with the effort of maintenance, this has been my main reasons for my reduced participation in this scale. Please bear in mind that Singapore is probably one of the most expensive cities in the world in terms of square feet space for housing...and that was always one of the major attractions for me to go to Z and not larger scales. Despite THIS, I am still willing to sacrifice the option of not even having the space to run a full circle on my HOn3 so that I don't have to deal with the shortcomings of Z scale I listed above. Not to mention all my feelings of nostalgia, loyalty and love to the z brand and community!
?
I wish all of you the best and apologise if I come across negatively or a little discouraging. But my intention is really to share my experience of the last twenty years or so. I love how z allows you to model vast layouts. I love the reliability and quality of most of the z brands (please do not confuse with running maintenance - oil, dust etc).?
Some of my own pro-tips:
- Z Track magazine has always been my go-to
- Rokuhan track has been the best thing for me in the last ten years
- DCC IS possible and it IS better than analogue running cause of slow speed and less complex wiring...but you limit yourself with models of locomotives and prepare for some strange behaviour. I know that it's been reported that it is not possible to buy from Velmo from Germany in the US but my experience is that Claudius Viet is a true gentleman and his products have been the most reliable for me. He even makes a sound decoder for the German Ludmilla!!! of which I have several.?
- You can find me here if you have socials:
?
God Bless everyone
Gavin from Singapore
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Malcom,
Your mileage, and opinions may vary.
AZL Autolatch couplers weren't designed for automatic uncoupling.? They were designed for running reliably without uncoupling, which they do way better than MTL couplers.
Not everyone is a fan of "operations."? I personally like watching trains running on mainlines more than switching? operations.? My preferrence, that's why I run on Z-Bend Track modules at shows.? We draw plenty of interest and see new people starting up in Z as more and more product becomes available (Thanks AZL.)? I've talked with dealers at shows and helped them get in contact with and become AZL dealers.?
I see Atlas testing the waters as a great development.? Yes, Intermountain tried, but jumped in with too big quantities too fast, eventhough they were warned they wouldn't get the same sales volumes as N right away.
My personal take on operations is that it is more something I see the NMRA pushing than something people naturally gravitate towards.? And if you want to see the NMRA embrace Z, then, like Robert Ray has said, you have to join and do it from the inside by participating and blowing their socks off.
Z scale is still more of a do it yourself modelers' scale than a ready to run scale, although we've got WAY more RTR than we did 10 or 20 years ago.
Operations is ONE part of Z scale.? I see essentially four parts:
1. Running 2. collecting 3. modeling? 4. operations
EACH has its own merits and fans and I don't think any one aspect alone is going to grow the scale more than another aspect.
What I do see growing the scale is increasing what is available.? First Marklin created Z, next MTL brought out American trains, then AZL expanded the possibilities.? After that we got some very nice, but more limited production like Full Throttle and Rokuhan (and even more supporting products like MCZ.)? PennZee and Father Nature could be included here eventhough they were technically earlier.? They stopped production due to life circumstances more than lack of demand.? Now, I see Atlas hopefully starting the next wave.? I am hopeful for the scale as I've seen a lot of improvement? ...? and someday I might even join the NMRA and try some operations.
Thanks,
On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 9:58 PM, Malcolm Cleaveland via groups.io <mcleavel@...> wrote:
Folks,
This discussion has been very interesting.? A few things have become clear:
1.The AZL "autolatch" couplers are obviously an impediment to full enjoyment?of Z scale model RRing.? This is an issue that Rob Kluz REFUSES to address beyond offering the option of converting an AZL switcher to MTL magnetic couplers.? Others who actually addressed
the issue admitted that this is a serious issue, preventing full enjoyment?of "autolatch" equipped locomotives and rolling stock.
2.The marvelous David George layout is now in a museum for the enjoyment?of many people. That's good, but I think that it is hardly going to make a big difference in the adoption of Z scale by those visitors. Perhaps I'm wrong. Modular Z scale is seen at the
conventions, train shows, etc. (I have a small layout I take to train shows), so people do have the opportunity to see it, which is good.
3.Why has a photo of David George's layout never appeared in the NMRA calendar? Surely it would be a candidate since it won awards and the NMRA magazine published a photo of it from a national convention but mislabeled it "HO scale".? There has NEVER?been a
photo from a Z scale layout in the NMRA calendar and I've talked to model RRers who didn't even know Z scale exists. If you are a member?of the NMRA and relied on the NMRA for information, you would not know it exists.? The NMRA is a powerful organization
in our shared hobby, it would be nice to have them acknowledging Z scale, if not actively promoting it.
4.Rob Kluz says Z scale is really taking off, maybe becoming as popular as N scale?? But he offers no evidence aside from the fact that he is moving to a larger place.? As a scientist, I would like to see more evidence, such as more retailers carrying Z, more
manufacturers offering Z, skyrocketing sales, etc. Perhaps Rob could point these out if they exist.? Unfortunately, with a major Z scale manufacturer, MTL, abandoning Z scale in favor of N scale, the evidence points in the opposite direction. Another major
manufacturer (Intermountain) dipped its toe in Z scale with some very nice covered hoppers but found it did not pay and has never released more Z scale.? Intermountain obviously views Z scale as a mistake.? I have been unable to persuade any dealers I've met
at train shows to carry any Z scale at all.? So, I see no evidence of Z scale taking off, in fact just the opposite.
5.Why doesn't AZL make its own magnematic couplers?? Patents have expired, and copying existing couplers with some improvements shouldn't be terribly?difficult. I asked Hans Riddervold (sp?) that question at the National Convention in Grapevine, TX and he couldn't
answer it.? I think he was embarrassed.? Perhaps Albritton could tell us why this obviously beneficial thing has never?happened.
Malcolm Cleaveland
MCZ Models
|
Folks,
This discussion has been very interesting.? A few things have become clear:
1.The AZL "autolatch" couplers are obviously an impediment to full enjoyment?of Z scale model RRing.? This is an issue that Rob Kluz REFUSES to address beyond offering the option of converting an AZL switcher to MTL magnetic couplers.? Others who actually addressed
the issue admitted that this is a serious issue, preventing full enjoyment?of "autolatch" equipped locomotives and rolling stock.
2.The marvelous David George layout is now in a museum for the enjoyment?of many people. That's good, but I think that it is hardly going to make a big difference in the adoption of Z scale by those visitors. Perhaps I'm wrong. Modular Z scale is seen at the
conventions, train shows, etc. (I have a small layout I take to train shows), so people do have the opportunity to see it, which is good.
3.Why has a photo of David George's layout never appeared in the NMRA calendar? Surely it would be a candidate since it won awards and the NMRA magazine published a photo of it from a national convention but mislabeled it "HO scale".? There has NEVER?been a
photo from a Z scale layout in the NMRA calendar and I've talked to model RRers who didn't even know Z scale exists. If you are a member?of the NMRA and relied on the NMRA for information, you would not know it exists.? The NMRA is a powerful organization
in our shared hobby, it would be nice to have them acknowledging Z scale, if not actively promoting it.
4.Rob Kluz says Z scale is really taking off, maybe becoming as popular as N scale?? But he offers no evidence aside from the fact that he is moving to a larger place.? As a scientist, I would like to see more evidence, such as more retailers carrying Z, more
manufacturers offering Z, skyrocketing sales, etc. Perhaps Rob could point these out if they exist.? Unfortunately, with a major Z scale manufacturer, MTL, abandoning Z scale in favor of N scale, the evidence points in the opposite direction. Another major
manufacturer (Intermountain) dipped its toe in Z scale with some very nice covered hoppers but found it did not pay and has never released more Z scale.? Intermountain obviously views Z scale as a mistake.? I have been unable to persuade any dealers I've met
at train shows to carry any Z scale at all.? So, I see no evidence of Z scale taking off, in fact just the opposite.
5.Why doesn't AZL make its own magnematic couplers?? Patents have expired, and copying existing couplers with some improvements shouldn't be terribly?difficult. I asked Hans Riddervold (sp?) that question at the National Convention in Grapevine, TX and he couldn't
answer it.? I think he was embarrassed.? Perhaps Albritton could tell us why this obviously beneficial thing has never?happened.
Malcolm Cleaveland
MCZ Models
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Right now on MTL's website are three new releases in Z scale; two ATSF well cars (an A and B unit with the same road number) and a wood sided reefer. It looks like they are going to keep going in Z scale. What I don't see on their new and improved website is
Nn3.
I'm in Z scale because I'm in Nn3, so I don't know a lot about operating in Z. However, Nn3 uses Z scale couplers, and we do operations in Nn3, so I'm pretty sure it can be done. What I do know is that I have been told for decades by the HO guys that N scale
isn't a real model railroading scale because of the couplers, and they derail too easy (because the trackwork requires more precision), and they're too small to see, they are too light to pull realistic size trains (that's when I point out that the record
holder for the longest train pulled by a single locomotive is a custom built N scale job), and blah blah blah.?
They were wrong about N scale, and they are wrong about Z as well.
I have an AZL Mikado (package deal several years ago with a GP7) and it is fantastic, it is every bit as detailed as my N scale Kato or my? HO scale Mehano. I bought it with the intentions of turning it into an Nn3 loco, but when I ran it I couldn't bear to
take it apart because it looks and runs so beautifully. Same with the GP7, it looks and runs every bit as well as my Atlas N scale units.?
So...it's all AZL's fault that I have Z scale. ? In fact, I dare say I'm every bit as much the fanboy for AZL in Z as some of the foamers in N scale are for Kato. But I digress...
As far as automatic uncoupling goes, I don't use it in N or HO either, I use a pick to uncouple, so that's not an issue for me. I'm not alone in this, there are plenty of folks out there in the HO and N scale world that do the same thing. My point is, I don't
think the automatic uncoupling issue is going to be a deal-breaker.?
Nn3 has taught me the importance of track laying and cleanliness, and since Nn3 is just Z by another name the same rules apply for Z. Where you can fudge it a little with N (and a little more with HO), Z scale needs more precision. IMO that's not necessarily
a drawback. Rokuhan and MicroTrains both have roadbed track if you want to be able to set up and take apart temporary layouts (IMO Rokuhan is going to be the Kato Unitrack of Z scale) and they both work very well. If sectional or flex track is your thing,
both MTL and Atlas have you covered, and Atlas has Z scale turnouts that are every bit as well done as their N scale code 55 offerings.
The model railroading manufacturers don't have a big commitment in Z because Z is still relatively new, but there is more and more every? day. N scale was the same way not too awfully long ago, but look at what's happening in N now. N scale offered more trains
in smaller spaces, which made it attractive to those who didn't have room for HO. N also offered more realistic views of trains running in huge landscapes in the same area that would make HO seem cramped. Z scale offers even more of the same for those who
either don't have room for N or who want to drastically expand the scenery to train ratio even further. But of course, you all know that; eventually others will catch on as well.
The only thing that Z needs to grow is time.
V/R
Larry P. Card
Franklinton NC
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I like many have been following this thread.? I have been in Z scale now for about 8 years and yes I do operate such as moving cars to industries and making up trains. I have been in model railroading for over 65 years and have learned what it takes to
make things work well. The biggest thing is you must be willing to put in the time and effort. Many today expect to buy a few pieces of track, a few cars and a loco and slap it all together and expect it to run like a Rolex.? Yes I will get blow back from
what I just said! :)
On a different note - Has anyone seen in print where Micro Trains is dropping the Z scale product line? Perhaps I have missed it or are we making assumptions. I do wonder what will happen with Micro Trains in general as Eric and his wife are up there in years
like me. I can only hope that arrangements have been made to pass it on.
Regards
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I like many have been following this thread.? I have been in Z scale now for about 8 years and yes I do operate such as moving cars to industries and making up trains. I have been in model railroading for over 65 years and have learned what it takes to make things work well. The biggest thing is you must be willing to put in the time and effort. Many today expect to buy a few pieces of track, a few cars and a loco and slap it all together and expect it to run like a Rolex.? Yes I will get blow back from what I just said! :)
On a different note - Has anyone seen in print where Micro Trains is dropping the Z scale product line? Perhaps I have missed it or are we making assumptions. I do wonder what will happen with Micro Trains in general as Eric and his wife are up there in years like me. I can only hope that arrangements have been made to pass it on.
Regards
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Interresting topic.?
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I carefully read all previous replies to Malcolm's topic, and I'm going to add my two cents.
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First I have to say that prior to my Z scale experience I only performed a few HO basic modelrailroading when I was a teenager, meaning that I only ran basic trains - ie at the edge of toy train vs model trains (actually BB and CC locomotives had only two powered axles and only two axles catching juice) - on poorly laid sectional track and basic isolated frog turnouts, all this on the inavoidable continuous running oval. Needless to say that I was simply happy when able to perform a single lap without any stall..
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So when I reverted to modelrailroading I deliberatly chose Z scale, for different reasons. My first decade as so was only armchair modelrailroading. I carefully read about everyone's experience, and not wanting to replicate my teenager's issues, I came to the conclusion I had to follow a few hard rules, including the following :
-tracklaying : every section of track must be juiced by feeders soldered to it.
-power routing turnouts are mandatory
-snail speed controllers are a must.
-and finally, that's right, track needs to be reasonably clean ; to reach this goal I'm often using an alcohol soaked cloth, and I'm always running my Aztec track cleaning car whichever the train I'm running.
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All this allows some switching operation.
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I'm definitly sticking to MTL magnematic technology. I doo agree, swapping couplers on my AZL locos is a little bit cumbersome. But the result is worth the swap.?
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On my AZL and Intermountain cars I didn't bother, I symply swapped trucks with MTL's.
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So all the rolling stock I'm running is MTL coupler equipped. I still have many AZL cars and some AZL locos which aren't (I must say I still didn't yet find a way to modify my GP30 with its short wheelbase, but maybe I'll somehow find a solution or a kind soul who gives me some tips for that), but the goal is to have a fully modified roster.
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Associated with all this, I decided to use Kadee #309 electromagnetic uncouplers, as pure magnetic couplers are too hazardous in their results.
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Following all these tips, I'm able to say I'm able to obtain good hand free switching operations.
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On another hand, if it's true that MTL is going to drop Z scale and Z scale accessory as well, it's going to be very difficult to go on this way for newbies.
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In that case I'm deeply praying AZL to develop their own magnematic coupler, if possible compatable with MTL's.
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That would be a real improvement for their already wonderful roster.
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Dom
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Hi Malcom,
just my experience, the C&U is the least of the problem for my Z Operations, I would highlight instead:
1)? I moved to DCC at the beginning of the Z scale DCC era and now I regretted it. No one DCC loco run flawlessly like usually DC loco do. I have should have spent more effort in the track segmentation etc
2) Dirty tracks. Z scale locos are too sensitive to dirty tracks. I find track cleaning a Sisyphean effort, that often discourage me to start to Operate my layout in the few time I have available. I could not find a reasonable way to alleviate this problem and tried all I think.
After many years I just realized that Z Scale is 90% Maintenance and this is not what I like to do, I like and want to Operate trains, I developed my own system of Operation to make it easy and immediate from the moment I turn the layout lights on but result is often frustration now because simply nothing ever works like it should.
I hope to have the time to see one day Z Scale locos with internal batteries and Bluetooth, that would be a game changer for Z Scale Operation and the growth for this scale.
Ciao,
Alex
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On Jun 30, 2024, at 3:22?PM, Malcolm Cleaveland via groups.io <mcleavel@...> wrote: ?I have tried to have this conversation with Rob Kluz of AZL, but his mind is closed and he absolutely refuses to address these issues.?
Nope not closed to it at all. But I don¡¯t see it as an ¡¯issue¡¯.?
It is this kind of comment that bothers me:
"I believe Z scale will not grow much in popularity until the C&U problem is solved.¡±
Why, because Z scale is growing like crazy. This kind of comments leads folks to believe the hobby is stagnant. I know more than anyone the Z market. Sorry, I can share numbers.. proprietary information and signed non-disclosure agreements. But in case you are wondering, just on Friday, I purchased a property that features a very large building (bigger than many homes), that will be the new home for Ztrack. This will double our space for all of our business operations. We are preparing now for the continued growth of Z scale.?
And I also take exception to to this line:
"A very good question that only AZL could answer.? An abject failure on their part. "
Why knock AZL? Their products are driving Z scale today. And they do care about operations. ?Look no further than AZL¡¯s SW1500 switcher which AZL specially designed an adapter so that MTL couplers could be used.?
Maybe instead of such a negative post, we can reframe this a different way. Let¡¯s try this:
Z scale is growing like crazy! With it gaining in popularity, moving towards operations seems natural. AZL already started the ball rolling with their SW1500s. How else can we utilize MTL couplers to modify and upgrade rolling stock for operations? What kind of track plans would lend themselves to operations? Anyone doing switching and operation movements today that can provide some tips and tricks??
See I am onboard with this kind of positivity.. Heck, I would even publish an article in Ztrack to help foster the idea!?
Now back to packing! We have an office to move!!!!?
Rob
¡°Zeeing is believing¡"
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On Jun 30, 2024, at 3:22?PM, Malcolm Cleaveland via groups.io <mcleavel@...> wrote:
?I have tried to have this conversation with Rob Kluz of AZL, but his mind is closed and he absolutely refuses to address these issues.?
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As I read it, the thrust of this topic is not Operations vs. Running trains for display.
Also, as I read Malcom's post, he wants to ADD to the hobby, it's not Operations instead of Public Display.
Finally, he does reference the convention, which is a really different venue than public display.
We need more in the hobby, by expanding, not warring over which aspect is better...
Greg
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Garth Hamilton
ddechamp71
Larry Card