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How to make snappy bass on Xpander ?

 

Maybe somebody can post a guideline how to make more snappier bass sounds on Xpander.
Standard aproach like Saw Wave with Filter ADSR zero attack, short decay, zero sustain and release does not work quite like I want to hear it. Of course I have a minimoog here and I can get an outstanding result in 5 seconds, but I want to know, maybe this crazy modulation matrix on Xp can help to manage this ?
 

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No.

Xpander/Matrix-12 has software generated modifiers (LFOs, ENVs, VCAs) being too lame for percussive attack (bass) sounds.
Its the weak point of these machines.
You get the modulation capabilities and multimode filters for that price.

Xpander & Minimoog D here too b.t.w. ...

:-)

Am 31.03.2014 19:40, schrieb leo-666@...:

maybe this crazy modulation matrix on Xp can help to manage this ?

_
 

Even Andromeda strikes with a fast envelope. And sounds very close to a Voyager sometimes.
Andromeda's envelopes are also software. Maybe a modern faster processor controller do the thing.

But I've heard in a demo called some really nice percussiveness.
Hosted here.
How is it done. ?
Very interesting...
 

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One of the designers of the Xpander and Andromeda is Marcus Ryle.
That explains a lot.
Andromeda developement is younger, so yes, theres a different processor inside.
Xpander uses the same processor as Matrix-1000,- but 2 of these.

But take it as it is because you cannot change the physics.
You have a Minimoog D for such sounds.

Am 31.03.2014 20:32, schrieb leo-666@...:

Even Andromeda strikes with a fast envelope. And sounds very close to a Voyager sometimes.
Andromeda's envelopes are also software. Maybe a modern faster processor controller do the thing.
 

As PeWe stated, you're not going to get Minimoog fast response times from any of the modulation sources. However, while this is one of those things that subjective to personal taste, you can still get some fairly nice percussive and snappy bass/percussion sounds from the Xpander. ? I'm not in front of my Xpander now, but I believe you could get "better" results by using one of the RAMP generators to modulate the filter as an attack/decay versus an ADSR.?


On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 2:32 PM, <leo-666@...> wrote:
?

Even Andromeda strikes with a fast envelope. And sounds very close to a Voyager sometimes.
Andromeda's envelopes are also software. Maybe a modern faster processor controller do the thing.

But I've heard in a demo called some really nice percussiveness.
Hosted here.
How is it done. ?
Very interesting...
 

Ramp routed straight to the filter ? Very interesting.
Gotta try it soon.
And to my ears the problem also is the fact that xpander has weaker soundung oscillators than a discrete old moog of course, and maybe weaker than some other CEM based synths. I noticed it when listening to a raw waves of the xpander. They are not that ground shaking, But yeah, pad and evolving possibilities beats all other synths.
 

well, when you define "snappy" as being the problem, that won't have anything to do with the characteristics of the oscillators. that has everything to do with the response time of the decay on the ADSR when routed to the filter cutoff. so yes, try using one of the RAMP generators to modulate the filter cutoff instead of one of the ENV.?

otherwise, yes, you don't get quite the same low end "bottom" on an Xpander as you do on a Minimoog. but that's the beauty of these machines, they each excel in their own areas and what provides a wider range of "color" for writing. personally I find the Xpander great for bass sounds, particularly for more aggressive "grittier" bass sounds when using the 1-pole or 2-pole LP filter settings. from there it all eventually comes down to your programming and how it is mixed in your track.?






On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 2:47 PM, <leo-666@...> wrote:
?

Ramp routed straight to the filter ? Very interesting.
Gotta try it soon.
And to my ears the problem also is the fact that xpander has weaker soundung oscillators than a discrete old moog of course, and maybe weaker than some other CEM based synths. I noticed it when listening to a raw waves of the xpander. They are not that ground shaking, But yeah, pad and evolving possibilities beats all other synths.
 

yes use ramp for quick pulse
On Monday, March 31, 2014 12:32 PM, Omar wrote:
?
well, when you define "snappy" as being the problem, that won't have anything to do with the characteristics of the oscillators. that has everything to do with the response time of the decay on the ADSR when routed to the filter cutoff. so yes, try using one of the RAMP generators to modulate the filter cutoff instead of one of the ENV.?

otherwise, yes, you don't get quite the same low end "bottom" on an Xpander as you do on a Minimoog. but that's the beauty of these machines, they each excel in their own areas and what provides a wider range of "color" for writing. personally I find the Xpander great for bass sounds, particularly for more aggressive "grittier" bass sounds when using the 1-pole or 2-pole LP filter settings. from there it all eventually comes down to your programming and how it is mixed in your track.?






On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 2:47 PM, <leo-666@...> wrote:
?
Ramp routed straight to the filter ? Very interesting.
Gotta try it soon.
And to my ears the problem also is the fact that xpander has weaker soundung oscillators than a discrete old moog of course, and maybe weaker than some other CEM based synths. I noticed it when listening to a raw waves of the xpander. They are not that ground shaking, But yeah, pad and evolving possibilities beats all other synths.
 

i know you can route multiple things to the same VCA and maybe by doing this you can trick it into moving faster than the normal VCA setting allows?
?
i remember this conversation happening on AH or something...

z


NEW ALLIANCE EAST!!!!

--------------------------------------





On Monday, March 31, 2014 3:36 PM, robert hall wrote:
?
yes use ramp for quick pulse
On Monday, March 31, 2014 12:32 PM, Omar wrote:
?
well, when you define "snappy" as being the problem, that won't have anything to do with the characteristics of the oscillators. that has everything to do with the response time of the decay on the ADSR when routed to the filter cutoff. so yes, try using one of the RAMP generators to modulate the filter cutoff instead of one of the ENV.?

otherwise, yes, you don't get quite the same low end "bottom" on an Xpander as you do on a Minimoog. but that's the beauty of these machines, they each excel in their own areas and what provides a wider range of "color" for writing. personally I find the Xpander great for bass sounds, particularly for more aggressive "grittier" bass sounds when using the 1-pole or 2-pole LP filter settings. from there it all eventually comes down to your programming and how it is mixed in your track.?






On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 2:47 PM, <leo-666@...> wrote:
?
Ramp routed straight to the filter ? Very interesting.
Gotta try it soon.
And to my ears the problem also is the fact that xpander has weaker soundung oscillators than a discrete old moog of course, and maybe weaker than some other CEM based synths. I noticed it when listening to a raw waves of the xpander. They are not that ground shaking, But yeah, pad and evolving possibilities beats all other synths.
 

But I heard that the xpander's processor acts quicker if less routings are enabled.
It's logical cause the processor is so vintage.
I even saw somebody wrote that applying one envelope a several times to the same destenation helps.
But I tried this and did not noticed a quicker responce.
 

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Thats why I said "fuget it" ...

Components and software inside Xpander(M12 are as fast as they are and you cannot make em faster.
Use the machine for what it can do excellent and use other gear for the tasks where Xpander/M12 fail.

Am 31.03.2014 22:59, schrieb leo-666@...:

But I heard that the xpander's processor acts quicker if less routings are enabled.
It's logical cause the processor is so vintage.
I even saw somebody wrote that applying one envelope a several times to the same destenation helps.
But I tried this and did not noticed a quicker responce.
 

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you can modulate a ramp with a ramp and obtain exponential ramp

On 31/mar/2014, at 22:51, Nick Zampiello <newallianceeast@...> wrote:



i know you can route multiple things to the same VCA and maybe by doing this you can trick it into moving faster than the normal VCA setting allows?
?
i remember this conversation happening on AH or something...

z


NEW ALLIANCE EAST!!!!

--------------------------------------





On Monday, March 31, 2014 3:36 PM, robert hall <rbhall7ice@...> wrote:
yes use ramp for quick pulse
On Monday, March 31, 2014 12:32 PM, Omar <holografique@...> wrote:
?
well, when you define "snappy" as being the problem, that won't have anything to do with the characteristics of the oscillators. that has everything to do with the response time of the decay on the ADSR when routed to the filter cutoff. so yes, try using one of the RAMP generators to modulate the filter cutoff instead of one of the ENV.?

otherwise, yes, you don't get quite the same low end "bottom" on an Xpander as you do on a Minimoog. but that's the beauty of these machines, they each excel in their own areas and what provides a wider range of "color" for writing. personally I find the Xpander great for bass sounds, particularly for more aggressive "grittier" bass sounds when using the 1-pole or 2-pole LP filter settings. from there it all eventually comes down to your programming and how it is mixed in your track.?






On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 2:47 PM,?<leo-666@...>?wrote:
?
Ramp routed straight to the filter ? Very interesting.
Gotta try it soon.
And to my ears the problem also is the fact that xpander has weaker soundung oscillators than a discrete old moog of course, and maybe weaker than some other CEM based synths. I noticed it when listening to a raw waves of the xpander. They are not that ground shaking, But yeah, pad and evolving possibilities beats all other synths.
 

agreed, the machine is about complex modulation. if you want a click/bass snapyness, then use something like a shruthi from mutatable - it's so hard and jabby it will take your eye out.
 

PeWe

>>Components and software inside Xpander(M12 are as fast as they are and you cannot make ?em faste.
>>Use the machine for what it can do excellent and use other gear for the tasks where Xpander/M12 fail.

Welllllll, Hitachi makes a pin & instruction compatible 6809 replacement (6309) that runs at 4MHZ, but it
would require a partial rewrite of the firmware. (I'm not sure if it is the exact same model as the 6809 (B vs E) though).

Additionally, there is another mode in the 6309 that has a few "extra" instructions which enable some operations
to be even faster. But this would cause more of an incompatibility until the FW is re-written.

However, if any of you are tired of the Xpander/M12's current limitations, a challenge awaits ye.... ;-)



On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 11:41 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
?


That?s why I said "fuget it" ...

Components and software inside Xpander(M12 are as fast as they are and you cannot make ?em faster.
Use the machine for what it can do excellent and use other gear for the tasks where Xpander/M12 fail.

Am 31.03.2014 22:59, schrieb leo-666@...:
?

But I heard that the xpander's processor acts quicker if less routings are enabled.
It's logical cause the processor is so vintage.
I even saw somebody wrote that applying one envelope a several times to the same destenation helps.
But I tried this and did not noticed a quicker responce.
 

I have looked at?doing this, but increasing the micro speed is not all.? The analog multiplexer circuit ultimately determines the update
rate of each parameter eg..? env attack etc...,? which in turn?limits the speed of the mod souces.? So.. the resistor/capacitor values in each mux circuit (one per voice) would have to be changed?along with the code.?I would?hate to hack?up my?M12 that much.?There is an AKAI out there
that I believe?has the?same CEM chip set.?It might?be a better victim.??????
?
BTW?? Putting a a sharp, short ?evelope to the FM at the beginning of the?sound can add some snap or bite to a bass patch.? Learned this from an artical?by Wendy Carlos.
?
?
Best Regards
?
Karl?
?
?
?

From: Tony Cappellini
To: xpantastic@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [xpantastic] Re: How to make snappy bass on Xpander ?
?
PeWe>>Components and software inside Xpander(M12 are as fast as they are and you cannot make ?em faste. >>Use the machine for what it can do excellent and use other gear for the tasks where Xpander/M12 fail.
Welllllll, Hitachi makes a pin & instruction compatible 6809 replacement (6309) that runs at 4MHZ, but it
would require a partial rewrite of the firmware. (I'm not sure if it is the exact same model as the 6809 (B vs E) though).
Additionally, there is another mode in the 6309 that has a few "extra" instructions which enable some operations
to be even faster. But this would cause more of an incompatibility until the FW is re-written.
However, if any of you are tired of the Xpander/M12's current limitations, a challenge awaits ye.... ;-)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 11:41 PM, PeWe <ha-pewe@...> wrote:
?
That?s why I said "fuget it" ... Components and software inside Xpander(M12 are as fast as they are and you cannot make ?em faster. Use the machine for what it can do excellent and use other gear for the tasks where Xpander/M12 fail. Am 31.03.2014 22:59, schrieb leo-666@...:
?
But I heard that the xpander's processor acts quicker if less routings are enabled.
It's logical cause the processor is so vintage.
I even saw somebody wrote that applying one envelope a several times to the same destenation helps.
But I tried this and did not noticed a quicker responce.


?

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