Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
Wouter is likely correct. ?No. 2 is probably overkill. ?
Told you I was waiting for the comments of the experts or comic. ??
Bill D
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On Jul 21, 2023, at 4:45 PM, whmvd <vandoornw@...> wrote:
? "Second, there should be a non-AR length of track (separating the far or
reverse end of the “other” track from any AR track), at least as long as
the train you run with steel wheels that will trigger the operation of
an AR device."
Unless I read incorrectly what you are saying (a drawing would help), that is way, way overdone. They should not be directly adjacent, but even an isolated bit fed with normal track bus power as short as one truck will do the job.
Wouter
the non-comic
If the “other” track is physically isolated from the rest of the layout, e.g., a siding,? there shouldn’t be any issues.? But I assume that is not the primary concern.?
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout AND is not electrically isolated, then problems are likely, and certain, if the “other” track is electrically connected to the non-AR segment of track from which the subject AR segment is isolated.
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout but is electrically isolated, then you might not have issues, depending on operations.?
The key point is that the “other” track has become a part of the AR segment to which it is connected.? This presents three limitations.?
First the “other” track cannot itself be an AR segment.? It must be electrically isolated from any contiguous AR track.? ?
Second, there should be a non-AR length of track (separating the far or reverse end of the “other” track from any AR track), at least as long as the train you run with steel wheels that will trigger the operation of an AR device.?
Third, you cannot have more than one AR triggering train crossing either of the isolating rail gaps at the same time.? Otherwise the AR device will be fighting with itself until — who knows?? It fries itself?? Blue smoke; not good.
Waiting for the real experts (or comics) to weigh in.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
Here is the plan. It is rather simple. the green section is the AR sector.
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
"Second, there should be a non-AR length of track (separating the far or
reverse end of the “other” track from any AR track), at least as long as
the train you run with steel wheels that will trigger the operation of
an AR device."
Unless I read incorrectly what you are saying (a drawing would help), that is way, way overdone. They should not be directly adjacent, but even an isolated bit fed with normal track bus power as short as one truck will do the job.
Wouter
the non-comic
If the “other” track is physically isolated from the rest of the layout, e.g., a siding,? there shouldn’t be any issues.? But I assume that is not the primary concern.?
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout AND is not electrically isolated, then problems are likely, and certain, if the “other” track is electrically connected to the non-AR segment of track from which the subject AR segment is isolated.
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout but is electrically isolated, then you might not have issues, depending on operations.?
The key point is that the “other” track has become a part of the AR segment to which it is connected.? This presents three limitations.?
First the “other” track cannot itself be an AR segment.? It must be electrically isolated from any contiguous AR track.? ?
Second, there should be a non-AR length of track (separating the far or reverse end of the “other” track from any AR track), at least as long as the train you run with steel wheels that will trigger the operation of an AR device.?
Third, you cannot have more than one AR triggering train crossing either of the isolating rail gaps at the same time.? Otherwise the AR device will be fighting with itself until — who knows?? It fries itself?? Blue smoke; not good.
Waiting for the real experts (or comics) to weigh in.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
William,
Sounds like you’ve taken the steps to isolate the other track such that there is no conflict if only a single train is entering the AR segment from either entrance at one time.
If the train continues to move, the double click you hear is probably not the sign of a conflict. If the AR wasn’t working as designed (and desired), the train would probably stall and hopefully your Circuit Breaker would pop. Certainly a lot more than “double clicking” would be anticipated from the AR.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
Jim Betz,
My third point exactly. One cannot have more than one train crossing the isolating rail gaps at the same time.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
The thing to watch out for with multiple entrances is having trains entering/leaving at two different entrances at the same time. If they call for different polarities it can make things not happy.
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
Bill, that other track which enters the reversing loop is electrically isolated from the AR segment by a gap between the turnout and a stub - ended lead into a classification yard. The lead?is powered by the command station bus. The other end of the loop? (electrically?isolated) leads to a track to the rest of the layout .
A short circuit occurs when a locomotive crosses the gap at either end of the reversing section and I?did notice that the AR unit "clicks" twice (at both gaps of the AR section) when traversing the loop, which is most likely a sign of conflict.
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
William,
? The biggest problem/issue would be "what happens if two trains/locomotives are
crossing the reversing section at the same time?".? This situation is likely to confuse
the reverser to the point where it can't reach any decision about what to do - or even
where it continously changes the polarity of the reversing section back and forth.
? Even if the reverser simply sees the situation as a short ("I tried the other way and
it did not resolve the short - so I'll just set a short") it's a problem.??
? The point of an auto-reverser is to fix a possible short (reverse the polarity of the
reversing section) and allow the train to continue ... and to do so so quickly that you,
the human observer, don't really notice (just care?).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- hope this helps ... Jim in the PNW
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
If the “other” track is physically isolated from the rest of the layout, e.g., a siding, there shouldn’t be any issues. But I assume that is not the primary concern.
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout AND is not electrically isolated, then problems are likely, and certain, if the “other” track is electrically connected to the non-AR segment of track from which the subject AR segment is isolated.
If the “other” track is not physically isolated from the rest of the layout but is electrically isolated, then you might not have issues, depending on operations.
The key point is that the “other” track has become a part of the AR segment to which it is connected. This presents three limitations.
First the “other” track cannot itself be an AR segment. It must be electrically isolated from any contiguous AR track.
Second, there should be a non-AR length of track (separating the far or reverse end of the “other” track from any AR track), at least as long as the train you run with steel wheels that will trigger the operation of an AR device.
Third, you cannot have more than one AR triggering train crossing either of the isolating rail gaps at the same time. Otherwise the AR device will be fighting with itself until — who knows? It fries itself? Blue smoke; not good.
Waiting for the real experts (or comics) to weigh in.
Bill D
N&W Steam Only
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Re: 1156 Bulb Short Protection and Powercab
I have used automotive brake lamps for circuit protection for years. Simple, the current of the lamps controls the current of the circuit. Achieve max current draw, the lamp lights, resistance becomes infinite, trains stop safely until the load is dropped. Has anyone used this system to protect DCC blocks. I have seen commercial power protection that had lamps involved.?
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Re: Track leading into a reversing loop
That sounds like a problem that needs a specific scenario. Then it could possibly be figured out, but I am not sure that there is a general answer.
...Tom
On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 3:51?PM William Waithe < wwsd40@...> wrote: Would a second track leading into a reversing loop interfere with the function of a reverser (e.g. Digitrax AR-1)? Is special wiring needed?
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Track leading into a reversing loop
Would a second track leading into a reversing loop interfere with the function of a reverser (e.g. Digitrax AR-1)? Is special wiring needed?
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
I believe the original question (as reflected in the subject line) dealt with powering a frog in a turnout WITHIN?a reversing section. ?That is what the latest posts seem to be “missing.” ?Not a turnout INTO a reversing section or two revising sections connected to one another. ?But rather, powering a frog with a frog juicer WITHIN an AR segment. ?That unique set of facts presents the issues that have been discussed.
Bill D N&W Steam Only
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
Totally with you, Jim. I've been bewildered by some of the things I read...
Wouter
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 at 16:45, Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Hmmm,
? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).
? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).
? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
Jim's logic is correct. A reversing section with only one entrance is like a separate layout. Flip the polarity before entering, and everything?inside is flipped together. The main thing is that the power to the section has to come from the turnout or whatever is throwing the turnout. You can't have a separate source of power to anything in the reversing section or there will be a clash
...Tom
On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 8:45?AM Jim Betz < jimbetz@...> wrote: Hmmm,
? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).
? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).
? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
Hmmm,
? I thought 'standard practice' (aka the basic approach) is to wire the turnout to 'the rest of the
layout' and have the?reversing section start just beyond that turnout.? If you have any
turnouts inside the reversing section then they are simply powered 'normally' ... but thru
the reverser.??
? This way everything in the reversing section stays the same polarity all the time (whatever
polarity the reverser is at that point in time).? And the rest of the layout is wired normally as
well (without a reverser).
? Although it can be done it can be difficult to set up two reversing sections that are 'connected'
(where trains run from one reversing section to the other across a double gap).
? Some situations require the entire turnout to be isolated (gaps on all six rails) in order to
support occupancy detection for the turnout (and only the turnout).? But this does not?
affect the basic wiring of such a turnout in terms of what end of it uses the same polarity
as the track it is connected to (which would be the 'single end' of the turnout).
? What am I missing here about this thread?? This is really, really the basic stuff about
how to wire a reversing section ... isn't it?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
John, You’re correct (of course), which suggests that the objective cannot be achieved if a TV Hexjuicer is being used both as an AR and to power the frog. ??
I don’t know of any convenient way to cause connections to the Hexjuicer to operate at different speeds. ?At minimum an adjustable non-TV product would need to be used either as the AR or as the frog juicer. ?
Or as I suggested, the frog could be powered from the servo throwing the turnout — which does not involve sensing a short to work. ?
Bill D
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On Jul 10, 2023, at 12:39 PM, D B via groups.io <1932mgj2@...> wrote:
? Of course the simpler solution is to power the frog through the servo as the turnout is thrown and avoid any potential conflict. Bill D N&W Steam Only On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:
?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
Of course the simpler solution is to power the frog through the servo as the turnout is thrown and avoid any potential conflict. Bill D
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On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:
?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
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On Jul 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Swanny <john@...> wrote:
?Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.
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Re: turnout frogs within a reversing section
Bill, except that the AR must be timed such that it doesn't try to reverse before the frog juicer does.? Hence the TV instructions to wire their Frog Juicers directly from the booster.? What the OP wants to do can be done if the AR can be adjusted properly, as there is not such an adjustment on the TV FJ's AFAIK.
John.
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Tim
Jim Betz
Swanny