Hi All,
There is a DCC for Beginners page on the Wiring for DCC website.? Also, there is a Site Map/Index which is probably the most concise place to find something.? Every topic is indexed there and sometimes is indexed a couple of different ways to make it easier to find.
Allan
Wiring for DCC
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There is also the vast amount of information in??.
I imagine that most of these topics are addressed in detail there.?
It is always easier to ask on the forum than to take time to research in the?
But a person always learns more in researching than just being given the answer.
Maybe there could be a "FAQ" type page with references to the appropriate page in?
and this page (if small enough) could be the monthly message.
My two cents,
Rob
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As an experienced modeller of 50 plus years, I agree with Jerry. And as an aside, it would be helpful if concrete instructions for how to submit a diagram or photograph were available on the site.
I am not sure how to respond to this.? I go back and forth between the two: basic vs. advanced DCC threads.? What I find curious is that any question, basic or advanced, can be simply ignored. So if you've had enough of twisted wire posts, simply ignore them.? It seems that this would handle 99% of the problems the 'advanced' users have with replying to what they determine to be basic questions.?
Fortunately, there are lots of members who don't seem to mind answering recurring basic questions or referring other members to the correct files.?
To the novice reading this, there is 'DCC warfare' where highly trained electrical persons concentrate on minutiae or electrical theory or personal preferences in long series of messages that have little or no value to the general DCC user. Some use the smallest wire gauge that works, some consider 10-gauge welding cable the only real wire to use.? Twisted wire is another area of gobble-de-gook where in my 10 years of responsibility for a 75x30 club layout and my own 20+ years of experience at home and a modular layout. doesn't matter. (That should start a new thread I can enjoy!)
Novice, beware!? These threads/arguments can leave you with blurred vision.?
I find a lot of threads are a good exchange of experience, desires, theory, and sadly at times to attempt to reign over as little tin gods.
I think users need to keep in mind that this is much more than a forum for highly-experienced DCC users.
I also think that some (myself included) want to post a novice question just to get a quick response from a human (think textbook vs. teacher).? There is the 'warm and fuzzy' aspect that shouldn't be overlooked.
We do no good to ignore questions believed to be beneath us to answer, although we can.? We need to keep in mind that we too were once novices and probably didn't know all the files that are available.? The files are not always the final answer and are not always clear.? The suggestions is made that if a deficiency is found in a file, it should be rewritten.? Who is going to police this?? Who is going to do the rewrites, who will edit the rewrites and who is going to notify the group that a revision has been done?
This is a hobby and encompasses a broad range of users.? Some are true experts, some are novices, some fall in between and use this and other fora as a pleasant pastime, not a thesis defense. I challenge those who are annoyed by repeat or novice posts to think back and see if they can remember when they made their first post to a novice. Sometimes it is just a good feeling to help a fellow hobbyist along.?
Sometimes it is possible that a post from a novice just might open up a new line of thought.
Be helpful, be cool, be kind, and enjoy!
Jerry Michels
P. S. This isn't the first post of this type, addressing repeat or basic questions, so in venerable Catch 22 fashion, shouldn't the poster have gone to the old messages or files section and found the answer before posting a repeat question about posting repeat questions? At least he should have checked with the Department of Redundancy Department.
P. P. S. I find that the experts often fail to change the thread's topic when the discussion changes, and inject a lot of confusion by being lazy themselves. To me, this is a problem larger than novice questions, and my addition to Jim's list.
P. P. P. S. What was that about reverse loops and gaps? You have to use 10-gauge twisted-wire feeders and insulated rail joiners? Correct? ?
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I am not sure how to respond to this. I go back and forth between the two: basic vs. advanced DCC threads. What I find curious is that any question, basic or advanced, can be simply ignored. So if you've had enough of twisted wire posts, simply ignore them. It seems that this would handle 99% of the problems the 'advanced' users have with replying to what they determine to be basic questions.
Fortunately, there are lots of members who don't seem to mind answering recurring basic questions or referring other members to the correct files.
To the novice reading this, there is 'DCC warfare' where highly trained electrical persons concentrate on minutiae or electrical theory or personal preferences in long series of messages that have little or no value to the general DCC user. Some use the smallest wire gauge that works, some consider 10-gauge welding cable the only real wire to use. Twisted wire is another area of gobble-de-gook where in my 10 years of responsibility for a 75x30 club layout and my own 20+ years of experience at home and a modular layout. doesn't matter. (That should start a new thread I can enjoy!)
Novice, beware! These threads/arguments can leave you with blurred vision.
I find a lot of threads are a good exchange of experience, desires, theory, and sadly at times to attempt to reign over as little tin gods.
I think users need to keep in mind that this is much more than a forum for highly-experienced DCC users.
I also think that some (myself included) want to post a novice question just to get a quick response from a human (think textbook vs. teacher). There is the 'warm and fuzzy' aspect that shouldn't be overlooked.
We do no good to ignore questions believed to be beneath us to answer, although we can. We need to keep in mind that we too were once novices and probably didn't know all the files that are available. The files are not always the final answer and are not always clear. The suggestions is made that if a deficiency is found in a file, it should be rewritten. Who is going to police this? Who is going to do the rewrites, who will edit the rewrites and who is going to notify the group that a revision has been done?
This is a hobby and encompasses a broad range of users. Some are true experts, some are novices, some fall in between and use this and other fora as a pleasant pastime, not a thesis defense. I challenge those who are annoyed by repeat or novice posts to think back and see if they can remember when they made their first post to a novice. Sometimes it is just a good feeling to help a fellow hobbyist along.
Sometimes it is possible that a post from a novice just might open up a new line of thought.
Be helpful, be cool, be kind, and enjoy!
Jerry Michels
P. S. This isn't the first post of this type, addressing repeat or basic questions, so in venerable Catch 22 fashion, shouldn't the poster have gone to the old messages or files section and found the answer before posting a repeat question about posting repeat questions? At least he should have checked with the Department of Redundancy Department.
P. P. S. I find that the experts often fail to change the thread's topic when the discussion changes, and inject a lot of confusion by being lazy themselves. To me, this is a problem larger than novice questions, and my addition to Jim's list.
P. P. P. S. What was that about reverse loops and gaps? You have to use 10-gauge twisted-wire feeders and insulated rail joiners? Correct? ?
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
If you want to extend the reversing section onto the double track portion I would recommend using relays driven by switch machine contacts rather than an automatic reverer. I'm not going to claim that would be simple, but it's much more practical.
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
No need for apologies David. It can be difficult picturing a situation without a diagram.?
Thanks for confirming what I had suspected. The parallel tracks exiting the loop does complicate the situation a little.
After some experimentation I also realised I made an error in how I wired the parallel tracks exiting the reverse loop. My initial thought was maintain the polarity of the track into an out of the loop. This means the two parallel tracks had the opposite polarity.
This worked okay until I installed the crossover. This caused a conflict which took some time to work through. I think the correct approach is to consider the parallel tracks as one, same polarity, and let the auto reverser do it's job. I will find out if
this is true in the next few days.
It's been a long time since my first, and only, reverse loop. In DC and a simple DPDT switch. But I am enjoying the challenge................George.??
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Well, one issue with Frequently Asked Questions collections is that the New People don¡¯t necessarily know about them.
So I suggest a monthly message with the list of topics in the FAQ, including an indication when something on that list has been edited.
dave
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David Emery, 703 298 3473 (cell) (603) 740-4894 (house) emery@... or deemery@...
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Jim,
I agree with you. Now, how to implement your idea, if enough people agree?
Some issues, such as best practices and joiners vs feeders are controversial, simply because in many cases, our wiring isn't that fussy.?
It gets more critical as layouts get larger and more complex, but as is often added, "YMMV", leading to lots of confusion and disagreements.
Don W
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
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On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 02:01:00 p.m. EDT, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Hi all,
? I'm not sure how to get this done correctly ... but I'll make a suggestion.? Other methods/approaches
are welcomed.
? The thing is that this list seems to be especially prone to "revisiting prior topics (aka threads)"
and those recurring topics are stuff that are pretty much "the basics of wiring for DCC".? The most
recent example is yet another question about how to handle a reversing section.? And those
threads are not only repetitive but also often include poorly phrased/written wording that then
drags out.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?****
? My basic suggestion is that there should be some document(s) that describe these topics
(I think they already exist in the FILES area) ... and we, the people trying to help the persons
asking the questions
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?should be referring them to those documents (first and always).
? THEN, if the person asking the question is still having trouble due to a nuance that he/she?
isn't getting ... we should help the person here in the group messages (threads).? And, if a
deficiency is discovered in the documents they should get updated (re-written?).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ****
? There is another basic part of this that I do not have a suggestion for how to handle it.
? ? ===> Wouldn't it be nice if the people asking questions were to check the FILES and
? ? ? ? ? ? ? find their own answers ... most of the time?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
? ===>? I am -not- criticizing the members for trying to be helpful.? I'm saying that there is a
? ? ? ? ? ? better way than once again answering the question in a thread (in my opinion).
P.S. I have my own list of those recurring topics.? I'll give them to you now.? Reversing sections.
? ? ? ?Twisting/not twisting bus wires.? Bus and Feeder wire sizes.? Best practices.? DCC circuit
? ? ? ?breakers (not in the booster/command station).? Wire routing.? Accessory bus wiring.
? ? ? ?Lighting.? Rail joiners -vs- feeders ... and how often to place feeders.? Wiring for detection
? ? ? ?and/or signals.? What would you add or delete from this list?
P.P.S.? Yes, I know that most of this already exists.? So why don't we use them?
|
Hi all,
? I'm not sure how to get this done correctly ... but I'll make a suggestion.? Other methods/approaches
are welcomed.
? The thing is that this list seems to be especially prone to "revisiting prior topics (aka threads)"
and those recurring topics are stuff that are pretty much "the basics of wiring for DCC".? The most
recent example is yet another question about how to handle a reversing section.? And those
threads are not only repetitive but also often include poorly phrased/written wording that then
drags out.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?****
? My basic suggestion is that there should be some document(s) that describe these topics
(I think they already exist in the FILES area) ... and we, the people trying to help the persons
asking the questions
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?should be referring them to those documents (first and always).
? THEN, if the person asking the question is still having trouble due to a nuance that he/she?
isn't getting ... we should help the person here in the group messages (threads).? And, if a
deficiency is discovered in the documents they should get updated (re-written?).
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ****
? There is another basic part of this that I do not have a suggestion for how to handle it.
? ? ===> Wouldn't it be nice if the people asking questions were to check the FILES and
? ? ? ? ? ? ? find their own answers ... most of the time?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW
? ===>? I am -not- criticizing the members for trying to be helpful.? I'm saying that there is a
? ? ? ? ? ? better way than once again answering the question in a thread (in my opinion).
P.S. I have my own list of those recurring topics.? I'll give them to you now.? Reversing sections.
? ? ? ?Twisting/not twisting bus wires.? Bus and Feeder wire sizes.? Best practices.? DCC circuit
? ? ? ?breakers (not in the booster/command station).? Wire routing.? Accessory bus wiring.
? ? ? ?Lighting.? Rail joiners -vs- feeders ... and how often to place feeders.? Wiring for detection
? ? ? ?and/or signals.? What would you add or delete from this list?
P.P.S.? Yes, I know that most of this already exists.? So why don't we use them?
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
George,
I think what you are saying is correct. You can extend either end of the reversing loop through one turnout in your nearest crossover.?
What isn't allowed is to do that with both turnouts of that crossover. Doing that would cause shorts every time a loco or lighted car's connected, powered wheels bridged the gaps between the two turnouts of the crossover. Also, any trains taking the crossover would have to be clear of the reversing section on the other side. You probably would find that still limits you to shorter trains than you want.
Don W
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
Hi Goerge,
I must apologize for my previous answer as it is not totally correct. Something didn't seem right in my mind, so I drew the picture. It really helps if you draw the picture. What you need to do is install 3 sets of double gaps. (When I say "double gaps" I assume that is the same as what you are calling "adjacent gaps" - a gap in each rail of the track at the same spot.)?
The problem is that the conflict in polarity occurs at the crossover nearest the loop, so to solve that you have to include half of that crossover inside the reversing section.?So install 3 sets of double gaps: one pair of gaps at the end of one side of the loop before the crossover nearest the loop (as described previously), one set between the crossover turnouts, and then one on the other parallel track beyond that same crossover. Your idea that you can move the gaps further toward the next crossover is also correct.?And yes, your thought about the gaps being adjacent within the crossover is correct. The gaps for the frogs simply isolate the frog where the opposite-polarity rails cross each other.?
Again, sorry for the confusion in my responses.?
David
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
Thanks to all who responded to my question. It basically confirmed what I had thought. I do have a follow up question. It is to do with which option is better. Gap before the exit crossover or Gap between the crossover.
To explain. My situation is that as I enter the loop on the left hand track, I cross the trailing point switch of the crossover. As I exit the loop I cross the other trailing point switch of the crossover. Following this switch I have about 2 metres of straight
track before it meets another crossover. My thoughts are that if I gap between the 2 switches of the crossover it would allow me to extend the length of the reverse loop until that next crossover further down the line. I could gap the rails before that subsequent
crossover.
I think this would work and would allow me to extend the length of the reversing section considerably, which is desirable. My question regards the gaps between the said crossover. Must they be adjacent? I suspect they must but those that have had more experience
may be able to confirm this so I don't go off cutting unnecessary gaps.?
As I mentioned in my original post, there are gaps between the crossover switches but they are not adjacent. They are simply the gaps that isolate the Frog in each switch. They are about 40mm or so apart. From what I have read about reverse loops, the gaps
need to be adjacent. It makes sense.
Thanks for any information you can provide...........George.? ??
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
George,
You already have two good responses, but I wanted to mention that I think we have the same situation on our layout. We use a BXPA1 to control the reverse loop, and it works well. I agree with the previous posters.
Jerry Michels
Amarillo Railroad Museum
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
George,
Tim's answer is correct, but without a picture, it seems a little confusing. I would answer your question this way - Make the loop the reversing track, and double-gap the rails at each end of the loop before the crossover. In addition to making sure you don't run two trains across both gaps at the same time, you also want to make sure the loop is long enough to hold any train that draws power along the length of the train; for example, a passenger train with coaches that are all lit (which wil lresult in the same effect as 2 trains crossing the gaps at the same time).
David
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Re: Reverse Loop Question
George;
The simplest solution is to make the crossover the end of the reversing section. In this case you would gap both tracks on the crossover track and at the frog end of both turnouts. Just don't try to run two trains across the gaps on both tracks at the same time.
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC
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Greetings All. I have been a member of this group for many years and have found the information provided very helpful. I think I have made some contributions in the past. I now need a little help with a reverse loop I have created on my new layout. I have wired simple reverse loops previously but only in DC.
My situation. I have a length of track leading into a revere loop but it doesn't join the incoming track directly when it exits the loop. It exits onto a track parallel to the incoming track. This is is fine but just outside of the loop I have a crossover that joins the inbound and outbound tracks. Not surprisingly I get a short if I try to go through this crossover. There are gaps in the crossover track but they are staggered. They are the gaps that isolate the frog of each switch.
My question/s are do I use an auto reverser on the loop and, if so, do the gaps at the crossover need to be adjacent? Will this work? Or is there an alternate solution? Can I connect the auto reverser to the 2 parallel tracks leading into the reverse loop. I have seen this solution used to simplify certain situations.
I am hoping somebody can provide a solution so that I don't have to go through a lot of experimentation. For you info, I use a Digitax command station with input via DCC Specialities PSX CB's. I have a couple of DCC Specialities Frog/AR's for the reverse loop.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide...........................George.
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Con-Cor HO Aerotrain decoder install
I know this is an oldie, but has anyone ever installed a decoder in the engine of the Con-Cor Aerotrain? If so, how was it done? I know about the 'decoder car' and would like to avoid it if possible.
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Re: 1156 Bulb Short Protection and Powercab
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Re: 1156 Bulb Short Protection and Powercab
I ended up using a #93 and #1203 bub in paralllel for my PowerCab system and it works pretty well.? I selected the bulbs based by having the sum of their current rating to be close to the booster rating but not equal nor greater.? Also, I selected bulbs that were 'NCE compatible'.??
Credit to Mark Gurries and Marcus Ammann for the table below (Gurries) and wiring info (Gurries and Ammann).?
--
Dave
Portland, OR
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Tim
Jim Betz