Building a yard ladder

#12925

When building a yard ladder is it acceptable to place your turnouts end to end or should there be some track in between the turnouts, if so what would the recommended track length be in OO scale?? ? ?Thank you for any suggestions.

Alan

Re: DCC Bus reversing question

#12924

Hi Blair,

I'll wait until you post your diagram.? You are right, the rule about avoiding adjacent reversing units is a good one.

Allan

Re: T-25 Wire Staplers

#12923

I am not seeing any T-25 staples with plastic to prevent shorting if the metal breaks through the insulation.? As long as only one wire is run under them it is not a problem but it seems like it is asking for a problem if two wires run under one staple.? Plastic insulation deforms under pressure and it seems like it would might break through the insulation on occasion and with enough time.

Regards,
Ken Harstine

Re: DCC Bus reversing question

#12922

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Allan

My problem is a bit more complicated.?? I think I'll generate a picture and post it later, it will explain things better.? Essentially, if an area served by 3 or 4 PSX breakers must all be either normal or reversed, why would you do it incrementally with several PSX-AR units, particularly as they are electrically adjacent and therefore violate the "no AR sections adjacent" rule previously discussed many times?? I realize that rule may or may not apply to PSX-AR units, but it's still a good practice.

Blair

On 2021-08-08 8:54, wirefordcc wrote:

Show quoted text

Hi Blair,

For people that have some form of electronic circuit breakers and need reversing, think about products like the PSX-AR that has both in one unit.? The obvious advantage is that they are designed to work together.? They are all solid state, too, so you don't have the relay switching problem.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: DCC Bus reversing question

#12921

Hi Blair,

For people that have some form of electronic circuit breakers and need reversing, think about products like the PSX-AR that has both in one unit.? The obvious advantage is that they are designed to work together.? They are all solid state, too, so you don't have the relay switching problem.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12920

Sorry for the tardy reply, but I must report that I've seen this problem for quite some time on my RR, which includes about 18 PSX and 4 PSXAR devices.? Upon reporting it to Tony's and asking for a possible solution, I was told in an email response that this behavior is considered normal.? Not what I wanted or expected to hear, given the reason for using these devices!
John

DCC Bus reversing question

#12919

I have two large staging yards.? They are accessed via two parallel tracks that enter an optional crossover - trains can go straight through either side of the crossover, or can cross over.? This allows trains to enter staging and face in either direction;? Or, you could think of it as, any train in staging can enter the layout going in either direction.? However, the layout DCC polarity is fixed.? This means that the entire staging yard needs to be a large reversing section.? My intent was to either reverse, or not reverse, the output of the booster feeding the yard with a relay, dependent on whether the crossover is set to X or ||.

This will work, but the relay approach leaves every loco in the yard seeing a momentary power loss, causing the noisy ones to recycle.? Not fun.

I don't really want to reverse using the Booster Autoreverse, as it then needs to be configured to flip faster than the circuit breakers feeding sections of the yard(can that be done reliably?).? For example, if I use either a PM42 or 4 PSX units to subdivide the yard, the booster has to reverse polarity before those elements react to the short when a train enters the crossover if it's X, if the crossover was previously set to ||.

If I could find a 10A DPDT solid state relay equivalent, I think I'd be away to the races, as this could then simply throw when the crossover changes state.

Suggestions?? I haven't explained it very well, so ask for clarifications if you need to.

Blair

Re: Twisted bus - diversion into ballast conductivity discussion

#12918

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Thanks.? We use diluted carpenter's yellow, haven't had a problem yet but detection is just arriving on scene - I've been relying on just checking bus-to bus-resistance so far, for the little bit we've ballasted.

Understand about not gluing, but I've found in the past that ballast 'migrates' when cleaning, and ends up in turnouts.? Elsewhere, could care less, but I don't want turnouts stuck mid-throw because I just cleaned the track, so we'll experiment with glue and resistance measurement.? As long as the R between the busses feeding the track remains > 100k, I expect it won't be a problem.? It's simple to connect an ohmmeter and check as we go, or better yet just make up a test strip and do the test before adding any new form of ballast or glue.

Thank you for the information

Blair

On 8/7/2021 4:22 PM, thomasmclae via groups.io wrote:

Show quoted text

There were several products in the past made of organic material. Ground pecan shells or some such. Bad.

We use a rock product, not sure the latest vendor. (Lots of vendors come and go over 30 years...) I Think it is granite dust. Sifted to get the fine dust out, you want toe rocks, not a paste.
We also use diluted white glue (NOT school glue) as bunding agent. Main reason, you can add water and remove later if you need to adjust or replace.?
We do not use matte medium on ballast, it dries hard and cannot be removed or adjusted easily. Good for everything but ballast. (Also conducts wheel sounds better too, lots of extra noise!)

The other option is not to glue down your ballast. Unless you are a module that gets tipped in moving to shows, glue is optional.
Thomas
DeSoto, TX

Re: Scotchlok bus punctures

#12917

"My T-25 is my friend."

John, Totally agree.? I came across mine last fall in a box of tools that came from my Father-in-law's shop.? I had always been unhappy with either using a T50 stapler (square shoulder staples), nail-in plastic cable clips, or a dozen other methods (I even tried stapling twist ties to the layout bottom!).? Figured I'd give the T-25m a try.? It's a charm.? With the low price of staples, I don't blink twice at moving a wire, or a whole run, it's so easy.

I'm presently wiring the underside of a 12-track staging yard throat(It's on it's side in my staging room - I'm past the age of enjoying wiring from beneath, though I will still do it), and while I solder all my feeders, I use a lot of staples to restrain the resultant wire nest.

The irony?? He used it to staple cedar strips to a form when he built a cedar strip canoe for his son as a wedding present.? I don't believe he ever stapled a cable with it!

Blair

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12916

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It would be nice if Digitrax would update their PM42 to solid state with screw terminals. They could call it PM52 and charge $10 more for it. One of the reasons I went with the PSX’s is because they don’t require the rats nest of soldered wires that the PM42 requires. Maybe someone from Digitrax is part of this group….

Show quoted text

On Aug 7, 2021, at 4:27 PM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:

?
Thank you for this, Allan.? I currently have four PM42 units installed.? My next expansion would have added two, possibly four depending on how power hungry staging gets, but I have been considering moving to PSX breakers, as the old relay-based breakers don't 'play nice' with sound units.? Right now, the jury is out, until I get annoyed enough; I may upgrade the PSX units slowly, as all of my PM42 installs are constructed such that I can swap in two dual PSX breakers, stacked one over the other, without much problem.? Should I make the jump to all PSX, I'll be remembering this feature when setting things up.

Thanks again

Blair Smith

On 8/7/2021 4:07 PM, wirefordcc wrote:

PSX users with Digitrax equipment:

I wish I had remembered this sooner.? When I set up my PSX's, I had problems.? After checking everything I could, I contacted DCC Specialties.? It turns out when I was setting up the PSX's, my Digitrax equipment (DCS 210) was sending some accessory addresses which were messing up the PSX settings.? The solution, while the PSX programming jumper is in place, is to disconnect the PSX from the track bus whenever powering up the DCS 210.? Wait about 30 seconds after powering up the DCS 210 and wait for it to finish sending its start up messages.? Then connect the PSX to the track bus and complete your programming.? When you aren't programming the PSX, of course, you just leave the PSX attached to the track bus.? This solved my problem.

Note:? I am using lots of Frog Juicers.? While my layout is still under construction and I haven't run it much, I haven't had issues with them and the PSX's.? Whenever I wire, I frequently check to make sure the electronic circuit breakers are working the way they should.? They did.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Twisted bus - diversion into ballast conductivity discussion

#12915

There were several products in the past made of organic material. Ground pecan shells or some such. Bad.

We use a rock product, not sure the latest vendor. (Lots of vendors come and go over 30 years...) I Think it is granite dust. Sifted to get the fine dust out, you want toe rocks, not a paste.
We also use diluted white glue (NOT school glue) as bunding agent. Main reason, you can add water and remove later if you need to adjust or replace.?
We do not use matte medium on ballast, it dries hard and cannot be removed or adjusted easily. Good for everything but ballast. (Also conducts wheel sounds better too, lots of extra noise!)

The other option is not to glue down your ballast. Unless you are a module that gets tipped in moving to shows, glue is optional.
Thomas
DeSoto, TX

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12914

开云体育

Thank you for this, Allan.? I currently have four PM42 units installed.? My next expansion would have added two, possibly four depending on how power hungry staging gets, but I have been considering moving to PSX breakers, as the old relay-based breakers don't 'play nice' with sound units.? Right now, the jury is out, until I get annoyed enough; I may upgrade the PSX units slowly, as all of my PM42 installs are constructed such that I can swap in two dual PSX breakers, stacked one over the other, without much problem.? Should I make the jump to all PSX, I'll be remembering this feature when setting things up.

Thanks again

Blair Smith

On 8/7/2021 4:07 PM, wirefordcc wrote:

Show quoted text

PSX users with Digitrax equipment:

I wish I had remembered this sooner.? When I set up my PSX's, I had problems.? After checking everything I could, I contacted DCC Specialties.? It turns out when I was setting up the PSX's, my Digitrax equipment (DCS 210) was sending some accessory addresses which were messing up the PSX settings.? The solution, while the PSX programming jumper is in place, is to disconnect the PSX from the track bus whenever powering up the DCS 210.? Wait about 30 seconds after powering up the DCS 210 and wait for it to finish sending its start up messages.? Then connect the PSX to the track bus and complete your programming.? When you aren't programming the PSX, of course, you just leave the PSX attached to the track bus.? This solved my problem.

Note:? I am using lots of Frog Juicers.? While my layout is still under construction and I haven't run it much, I haven't had issues with them and the PSX's.? Whenever I wire, I frequently check to make sure the electronic circuit breakers are working the way they should.? They did.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12913

PSX users with Digitrax equipment:

I wish I had remembered this sooner.? When I set up my PSX's, I had problems.? After checking everything I could, I contacted DCC Specialties.? It turns out when I was setting up the PSX's, my Digitrax equipment (DCS 210) was sending some accessory addresses which were messing up the PSX settings.? The solution, while the PSX programming jumper is in place, is to disconnect the PSX from the track bus whenever powering up the DCS 210.? Wait about 30 seconds after powering up the DCS 210 and wait for it to finish sending its start up messages.? Then connect the PSX to the track bus and complete your programming.? When you aren't programming the PSX, of course, you just leave the PSX attached to the track bus.? This solved my problem.

Note:? I am using lots of Frog Juicers.? While my layout is still under construction and I haven't run it much, I haven't had issues with them and the PSX's.? Whenever I wire, I frequently check to make sure the electronic circuit breakers are working the way they should.? They did.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12912

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I solved the problem finally! The PSX instruction manual states that when there is a short, D12 led should stay on and not flash. My D12 was flashing on and off, which the instruction manual indicated that the booster did not support “automatic reset.” As a result, I had to solder a jumper wire on the PSX boards between J7-1 and J7-2. Once I did that, problem was solved. Only downside is that when a short occurs, I have to manually reset the PSX by sending an accessory command to 997 in my throttle.

So apparently the new DCS210+ command/booster’s do not support auto reset, at least with the PSX’s.

I appreciate everyone weighing in and helping.

Show quoted text

On Aug 7, 2021, at 2:14 PM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:

?
Jim,

It happens only when he shorts one loop out.? I think the cycling is just the DCS retries.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 13:21, Jim Betz wrote:

Robert,
? This sounds more like two cabs on the same address ... Jim

Re: Twisted bus - diversion into ballast conductivity discussion

#12911

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Thomas

Thomas,

What ballast material, and what glue type, are you using?? I ask because I suspect some metallic materials present in ballasts may introduce a better electrical path particularly when bonded.? Ideally, a test of ballast and glue types would need to be done, to ascertain both relative conductivity and variability.? Yes, keeping the whole mess below rail base is desirable, but even then, it would be useful to know the reasons why.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 14:15, thomasmclae via groups.io wrote:

Show quoted text

Use ballast sparingly.
Lots of issues if you use too much! Just to top of sleepers is almost too much. Should not cover the ties at all. And keep away from turnouts!!!
If it does not touch the rails, no issues with detection.
I cannot count the issues we have had with too much ballast, and we use code 100 track. Code 83 would ne more sensitive to excess.

Another reason to twist the bus, induction and crosstalk. I am getting this third hand, so details may be shaky....
The DCC signal can jump from one wire to another if they run parallel. The longer the run together, the worse the issue.
Long runs of straight wires will 'talk' to each other.
The fix is to twist them. I am told that one twist in 6-8 inches works for bus wires, so 2-3 turns between drops is enough.
For table drops, we use twisted pair cable, red/black. No issues with cross talk.
Jameco has a good option, with their Value line twisted pair wire, at a good price point. I am using that for all our new arduino wiring.

Thomas
DeSoto, TX

Re: Twisted bus

#12910

Use ballast sparingly.
Lots of issues if you use too much! Just to top of sleepers is almost too much. Should not cover the ties at all. And keep away from turnouts!!!
If it does not touch the rails, no issues with detection.
I cannot count the issues we have had with too much ballast, and we use code 100 track. Code 83 would ne more sensitive to excess.

Another reason to twist the bus, induction and crosstalk. I am getting this third hand, so details may be shaky....
The DCC signal can jump from one wire to another if they run parallel. The longer the run together, the worse the issue.
Long runs of straight wires will 'talk' to each other.
The fix is to twist them. I am told that one twist in 6-8 inches works for bus wires, so 2-3 turns between drops is enough.
For table drops, we use twisted pair cable, red/black. No issues with cross talk.
Jameco has a good option, with their Value line twisted pair wire, at a good price point. I am using that for all our new arduino wiring.

Thomas
DeSoto, TX

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12909

开云体育

Jim,

It happens only when he shorts one loop out.? I think the cycling is just the DCS retries.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 13:21, Jim Betz wrote:

Show quoted text

Robert,
? This sounds more like two cabs on the same address ... Jim

Isolated/Dead Frogs

#12908

Having built a large Scale S layout, I made certain all my turnout frogs were wired through Tortise?Switch Machines.? As a result, I have had no problems with locomotives stalling at the turnout's frogs. Many older S locos have insufficient wheel pickups, so my wiring choice proved to be worthwhile! I recently observed a friend's HO layout and was somewhat puzzled at the configuration of the Shinohara double crossover he is about to install. It appears to me that a number of frogs were isolated/insulated, with no simple provision to wire them. Am I missing something? Are the HO locos better wired throughout that loss of current to the DCC/DC power/lights/etc is not a problem. Or, does the newer HO locos all come with some variant of a current keeper to prevent the shorter locos from coming to a halt at the frogs in the crossover? I'm really puzzled that the manufacturer does not provide a more positive configuration for preventing stalls at the frogs!?

Gary Chudzinski

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12907

Just a thought
Have you tried unhooking all wires except the dcs to the PSX to the 2 loops.
Return all devices to their default settings. Do your shorting of a loop and test all devices voltages.
The beauty of the PSX is that it’s designed to trip faster than any DIGITRAX device.
If it didn’t it would be useless.

Tony

Show quoted text

On Aug 7, 2021, at 12:20 PM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:

?Ahh.  That does help point at the problem.  This is not unusual - it would be nice if the industry had standardized on a three or four step response time for these various levels of detection.  As I don't use frog juicers, I'll have to step aside, but perhaps others can help you still.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 12:12, Robert Wilson wrote:
Thank you. Maybe the issue is that I slowed down the PSX’s so that they would play nice with the frog juicers because the juicers are slower than the PSX’s. So I might have to scrap the juicers and use tortoises to change frog polarity or switch to the Tam Valley circuit breakers which will play nice with the juicers.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:49 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:?Okay, you're on the right track, but I think you've misinterpreted.  If the lights on the DCS don't go out when you short the track, you've not lost your DC input, the DCS is trying to protect itself from the short by shutting down it's outputs.

That leads to a different diagnosis.  The DCS is, I believe, reacting faster than the PSX, and therefore extending the DCS response by changing op sw 18 is necessary.  However, I don't know if it will be sufficient, as I don't know if the PSX can respond faster than the delayed DCS - but I would expect so, or we'd hear far more people having this problem.

So, try changing the state of Op Sw 18 (verify using the tech doc I linked to earlier for the DCS 210+).  If that doesn't solve the problem, then either something else in your additional loads is interfering, or you've got to speed up the PSX units.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 11:40, Robert Wilson wrote:
Thank you for your help! So this is a brand new starter set, so it is the 210+. My wiring is as follows:

Track A from DCS to one terminal strip. Track B from DCS to different terminal strip. Then, off those two terminal strips, I run a black and red to one PSX, then that PSX feeds a bus run for one loop. I daisy chained the second PSX from the first, and that feeds the second bus for the other loop.

However, my two terminal strips connected to the DCS do have a few other wires connected. I have a pair going to the Tam Valley 5amp booster to power my DS64’s. I also have three pairs running off the terminal strips to three Hex Frog juicers. The Tam Vally 5amp booster has it’s own power supply but it hooks up to the DCS track power too per the directions. So basically my DCS track power is connected to the PSX’s, the Tam Valley accessory booster, and three Hex Juicers, all through the terminal strips.

I don’t think I can specifically isolate the voltage to the PS615 because it has the plug connector. I put my meter across the track A and B terminals on the DCS, and when there is a short, those terminals lose voltage.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:20 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:?Sorry for the cross mailing.

Verify all of these points again:

DCS output is wired to the two PSX units, and nothing else. (i.e. no other track segment, etc.)

One PSX is wired to one portion of the layout, no load

Second PSX is wired to second portion of layout, no load

Short one of the two sections above, and verify that the PS615 is shutting down; you should lose all indications on the front panel of the DCS; your meter should also show a loss of input voltage (not sure how you measured it, as the power supply plug input to the DCS doesn't facilitate probing).

If so, the power supply is shutting down faster than either the short detection in the PSX, or in the DCS, and messing with the delay times of either will be ineffective.  I think it's the PS615, and Digitrax should help you out; depending on the age of the unit, "help" could be just a recommendation for a new supply.

It would be ideal if you had an alternate PS615 supply available, (maybe a friend has one?), to demonstrate a different behavior with your PS615 removed from the test.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 10:52, Robert Wilson wrote:
It’s plugged in with the PS615 into the front port. The PSX’s are currently factory default at 3.81 amps. Should I change the trip setting to less amps on those? The DCS is factory default as well. I emailed Digitrax, they weren’t very helpful, deferring me to DCC Specialties, although they did say that I could try closing option switch 18 to put in a delay.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:?What is the DC supply to the DCS210+? The original PS615 from Digitrax, plugged into the front barrel jack, or another supply wired via the 7-pin connector?  Clearly, the PS is shutting down(overcurrent sensing) before the DCS210+, or the PSX, senses the short.  What are the delay times set to for both the PSX units and the DCS?

In case you don't have a manual handy, 

That manual is woefully quiet on option switches.  More info here:

Though the descriptions are about as cryptic as one could want.

Blair

On 2021-08-07 9:52, Robert Wilson wrote:
Okay, that’s the issue. The volts to my command station dropped to zero when a track was shorted. It’s a Digitrax DCS210. 5amp capacity. How can I fix this issue? I’m new to the hobby. My instruction manual doesn’t mention in CV’s for adjusting current trip.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 9:33 AM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:?Sounds like the main DCC power source is cutting in and out… not the PSX breakers. What is it? And what is the ampere capacity? Is there an adjustable trip point?
Put an AC voltmeter on the main DCC source to verify.  It should remain ON when a PSX breaker cuts out due to a short downstream.

DonV

Re: PSX Circuit Breaker Issue

#12906

Robert,
? This sounds more like two cabs on the same address ... Jim