Sorry. Here's a history. In 2018, when I reached 80, decided that to complete a bucket list item would mean building a MR. Not much room in a mobile home. No basement, no attic. Rooms too full. So I thought of a shelf layout in the hall.
The hall is only 36" wide. So, the shelf had to be 12" deep. But I had 24' of wall to build on.
So I had a 4x8 sheet of 2" pink foam/from HD, but into 4 boards 1' by 8'. Used caulk at each end to create the 24' length.
That foam was painted on all sides. (And I still have one board just sitting here. ??)
The shelf was to be at arm pit height. I'm 6'5" so that made the shelf 58" off the floor. The underside was painted white. I decided to have all wiring on top. And that's the base.
My concept was to keep the K.I.S.S. principle. And I'm frugal.
Another basic was minimum wiring. No metal screws or nails or wood until absolutely necessary. So the metal brackets are screwed into the studs and that's all the metal. The 2" pink foam is caulked to those brackets.
All roadbed and track is caulked. Again, no spikes, nails, screws.
Now that it's been up and running for 6= years with no major problems. I feel I made the right decisions.
And when I see the wiring on most of the layouts posted, I cringe.
A wiring spaghetti bowl is not my ideal. And so many that I see have so much wire, I'd love to have a penny for each piece of wire that is used on a MR.
As I say though. "Don't do as I do". Do what you want to do". Spending money is not my hobby.
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
Morgan,
?
? It's great that you have a good running RR.? You did not tell us what size the layout is.
For most layouts your wiring is a touch on the small size - but if it is working that's all
that really counts.? You also did not specify how many simultaneous trains/operators.
?
? My layout is 30x15 with the command station near the center.? There will be at most 6
trains running at any one time and usually only 3 or 4.? I used 14 gauge "bus wires"
that run to 14 gauge "track bus wires" that follow the track.? The track bus wires are
tied to the track above them using Cat 5 wires.? There are two reversing sections (PSX-AR)
and 4 more track blocks (PSX) that separate one operator/train from another unless
the trains are running literally in the same space.? Right now I have just one 5a booster
and it looks like I will not need another.? I run all sound and 95% or more steam.? The
layout is a shared staging (one PSX) up toboth ends of the main yard and two branches
from that yard to where the majority of the industries are.? It is modeled after Skagit
County, Wa. in the years between 1946 and 1955.? All GN.
? I have been told that this is "overkill" - but not seriously so.? I chose to intentionally
over do rather than under - so I won't have problems in the future.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim in the PNW
|
Here's what I did: When ready to wire my layout/in 2018. I didn't have AWG 12,14,16 available. But I did have a nice cable with 8 individual wires in. I stripped the plastic, separating those 8/all different colors. Estimated them to be AWG 22. All copper. And all new.
I used 18 AWG from the command station to a terminal block. The terminal block had 8 screws. I then wired one wire from each terminal screw to 8 places on the layout. Where using WAGO's, added 22 AWG feeders from the WAGO to the rails. i.e. I had calculated 8 places on the layout where feeders would do the most good. (As mentioned before in another thread. Those feeders were anywhere from 6' to 6" apart. Measured with a meter or conductivity and the quarter test.) In 6+ years, no problems. So if you don't have 14 gauge wire, use 22, and have an individual wire to each feeder/rail. All this is on top of the layout, with the wires placed along the front, just behind the fascia, in plastic straws painted green. So the WAGO's are on top, needing to be hidden. A minor nuisance. But the feeders are easily hidden in scenery.
And what is obvious is that not every rail has a feeder. And I did use solder where necessary to ensure electrical conductivity.
So yes, I took shortcuts. But judiciously. (And what I especially liked was 8 different colors making it super simple to make it easy to make sure the wires were attached correctly. "look at the wire at the WAGO, and 'it's a blue stripe, and then find that wire at the terminal block and you know it's the right one. i.e. More than simple red and black.) K.I.S.S.
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
My point in the discussion was to show how insignificant an additional drop in voltage occurs because of the use of small gauge wires? for short drops.? Of course there are many parallel current paths and they make the voltage drop even more insignificant.? My point was you can use very small gauge wire for short drops without hurting performance.? Don't over complicate the discussion.
?
Good Luck, John Moonan
|
Myron,
? I just discovered that I do not have a good picture of the details of the setup.? Here is a
picture of what the "finished product" looks like
?
?
? If you look closely at the picture you will see two screws hidden in the fascia just below the white?
plumbing collar.? Those screws go into a small block of plywood about 2" x 2" and the slide switch
is mounted in a hole in that piece of plywood.? This is a finished layout and so it is unlikely that I
can get a picture of the setup that is better than the above.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim in the PNW
|
Jim, you wouldn't happen to have a picture of the PVC, slide switch combination would you??
This seems like one of the best scenarios I have heard of in a long time.
?Here is my overall take on "how to set up your turnouts".
?
?I "go to Ops" ... a lot.? That means that I've seen just about every method of
wiring and/or controlling a turnout that there is.? Without question the best
overall solution - to me - is the one that mounts a slide switch on a block of
wood that is mounted to the fascia "in line with the points".? You put your
finger in thru a 1" PVC cap and push to move the points away from you, pull
to bring them towards you.? This method is very intuitive and is picked up
by the operators who are new to the layout without problem.? In areas where
there are a lot of turnouts closely spaced at least one layout owner I know
chose to put labels on the actual turnouts (such as "A", "B", "CC", etc.) and
also labeled the "holes" the same.? The turnouts were/are all powered, usually
with Tortoise switch machines.? For truly complicated areas such as what?
would qualify as an "interlocking that is operated by a tower" a panel can be
created that has toggle switches mounted right in the panel (and may/may not
have LEDs to indicate current position) ... flip the toggle in the direction of the
path desired.
? I -used- to say that I was 'ambidextrous' and didn't prefer either selecting a
route or moving the points ... but after several decades of using both I find
that I am much more likely to not make mistakes if the method is 'points'
versus 'routes'.
?
? On several large layouts I have had assignments where I could watch the
crew thruout the entire session - my observation is that 'points' wins over
'routes' in terms of the crew not making mistakes.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
?
? Another quite successful method is to mount the slide switch directly into
the layout surface and use a short 'throw bar' (spring steel rod) from the slide
switch to move?the points.? The slide switch activates the Tortoise.? This method
works well but is not as visually pleasing as the one?that puts the slide switch
in the fascia.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?****
?
? I have also operated on many layouts that use a momentary push button
(usually on a panel) that toggles the turnout back and forth.? Even though
this method is accompanied by LEDs that indicate current position ... it is
common for the operators to push first and watch the points and then push
again ... because the turnout was already the way they wanted it.? *G*
?
? Don't misunderstand me - do what YOU want to do on your layout.? I am
merely sharing my observations of methods and how successful they are/aren't
for both myself and others.? No, I will not "pass" on a layout with methods
different from my preferred (I'm an "ops slut" and proud of it).? No, if you are
using a different method I do -not- recommend you change methods.
?
? The LEAST successful method is one that uses more than one method on the
-same- layout.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim in the PNW
|
?Here is my overall take on "how to set up your turnouts".
?
?I "go to Ops" ... a lot.? That means that I've seen just about every method of
wiring and/or controlling a turnout that there is.? Without question the best
overall solution - to me - is the one that mounts a slide switch on a block of
wood that is mounted to the fascia "in line with the points".? You put your
finger in thru a 1" PVC cap and push to move the points away from you, pull
to bring them towards you.? This method is very intuitive and is picked up
by the operators who are new to the layout without problem.? In areas where
there are a lot of turnouts closely spaced at least one layout owner I know
chose to put labels on the actual turnouts (such as "A", "B", "CC", etc.) and
also labeled the "holes" the same.? The turnouts were/are all powered, usually
with Tortoise switch machines.? For truly complicated areas such as what?
would qualify as an "interlocking that is operated by a tower" a panel can be
created that has toggle switches mounted right in the panel (and may/may not
have LEDs to indicate current position) ... flip the toggle in the direction of the
path desired.
? I -used- to say that I was 'ambidextrous' and didn't prefer either selecting a
route or moving the points ... but after several decades of using both I find
that I am much more likely to not make mistakes if the method is 'points'
versus 'routes'.
?
? On several large layouts I have had assignments where I could watch the
crew thruout the entire session - my observation is that 'points' wins over
'routes' in terms of the crew not making mistakes.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *
?
? Another quite successful method is to mount the slide switch directly into
the layout surface and use a short 'throw bar' (spring steel rod) from the slide
switch to move?the points.? The slide switch activates the Tortoise.? This method
works well but is not as visually pleasing as the one?that puts the slide switch
in the fascia.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?****
?
? I have also operated on many layouts that use a momentary push button
(usually on a panel) that toggles the turnout back and forth.? Even though
this method is accompanied by LEDs that indicate current position ... it is
common for the operators to push first and watch the points and then push
again ... because the turnout was already the way they wanted it.? *G*
?
? Don't misunderstand me - do what YOU want to do on your layout.? I am
merely sharing my observations of methods and how successful they are/aren't
for both myself and others.? No, I will not "pass" on a layout with methods
different from my preferred (I'm an "ops slut" and proud of it).? No, if you are
using a different method I do -not- recommend you change methods.
?
? The LEAST successful method is one that uses more than one method on the
-same- layout.
?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Jim in the PNW
|
Steve,
What you recall is simplified so far that it's wrong. Currents always divide when there are multiple parallel paths. More current flows in the lower resistance paths than in the higher resistance ones, just like the water over Niagara Falls divides between the various channels. One of the first things taught in basic electrical instruction is how to calculate the currents in parallel paths. In a system with a fixed current limit, any second, third, or greater paths reduce the current for all the previously connected ones. More current will go through that closest feeder, everything else being equal, but not all.
I solder all my rail joints on curves, and most on tangent (straight) track, leaving only a few sliding connections on longer straight sections. I've not had a problem with broken solder joints or buckled track or so on, and some of this track was installed in 1974! My theory is that any difference in expansion between the track and the wood benchwork is coped with by the track moving slightly on the curves. Regardless of why, I've found concerns about track joint failure and track buckling to be overstated.?
My railroad doesn't see extreme temperature and humidity changes, so as always, YMMV.
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
|
Hi Steve,
Unfortunately, that person was not as wise as he thought he was. Electricity does not care at all about the length of paths. Electricity cares about resistance (and inductance and capacitance, but let's leave that out to keep it simple).
If electricity has two paths with unequal resistance to choose from, it will not choose the one with the least resistance. it will split into two paths, the split being inversely proportianal to the resistance in each path.
Now I'm quite sure you know this. I just disagree very strongly with an over-simplification to the effect that people are simply fed wrong information.
No offence meant! Wouter
Puckdropper comments: ? "That's just one wire, for the length of the wire." ? Correct. ? ¡°What happens if we consider multiple wires, spaced about 3' apart like one wire to each piece of flex track?? Without looking at the math, I be the resistance and voltage drop goes way down as you attach one feeder to every piece of rail.¡± ? A person much wiser about things electrical than me once commented on one of these lists word to the effect of ¡°electricity will always take the shortest path¡±. ? Given a set of track feeders at the point of the short, and another pair of feeders six ¨C nine feet down the track, when the short occurs all the power will be conducted down the feeders closet to the short to the larger bus (which being larger is more able to handle the load (for a bit).? ? That puts the entire load pulled by the short on the one set of smaller wires in immediate proximity to the short.? In theory, either the short protection in the booster, or the circuit breaker limiting current to a particular section of the layout should catch the short and cut the power to the short, preserving the layout for another day. ? ¡°(Assuming your rail joiners are passing at least SOME power, which they probably are.)¡± ? I wouldn¡¯t trust rail joiners to guarantee power transmission on any but the most rudimentary layouts: ? - Over time corrosion and other non-conducting material can get between the joiner and one or both rails, ultimately breaking continuity of the circuit,
- Soldering rail joiners might seem like a good option, but over time the joint is subject to mechanical stresses and cracks can form, again interrupting electrical continuity.
? Soldering feeders to each section of rail eliminates those potential problems. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA ?
|
Puckdropper comments: ? "That's just one wire, for the length of the wire." ? Correct. ? ¡°What happens if we consider multiple wires, spaced about 3' apart like one wire to each piece of flex track?? Without looking at the math, I be the resistance and voltage drop goes way down as you attach one feeder to every piece of rail.¡± ? A person much wiser about things electrical than me once commented on one of these lists word to the effect of ¡°electricity will always take the shortest path¡±. ? Given a set of track feeders at the point of the short, and another pair of feeders six ¨C nine feet down the track, when the short occurs all the power will be conducted down the feeders closet to the short to the larger bus (which being larger is more able to handle the load (for a bit).? ? That puts the entire load pulled by the short on the one set of smaller wires in immediate proximity to the short.? In theory, either the short protection in the booster, or the circuit breaker limiting current to a particular section of the layout should catch the short and cut the power to the short, preserving the layout for another day. ? ¡°(Assuming your rail joiners are passing at least SOME power, which they probably are.)¡± ? I wouldn¡¯t trust rail joiners to guarantee power transmission on any but the most rudimentary layouts: ? - Over time corrosion and other non-conducting material can get between the joiner and one or both rails, ultimately breaking continuity of the circuit,
- Soldering rail joiners might seem like a good option, but over time the joint is subject to mechanical stresses and cracks can form, again interrupting electrical continuity.
? Soldering feeders to each section of rail eliminates those potential problems. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA ?
|
Since I admit to being frugal. I simply made sure feeders were where they were needed. Some might be 6' apart, and others only 3" or 6" or whatever. And I did measure voltage drop from various points of feeder to command station. And of course, the quarter test.
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
That's just one wire, for the length of the wire. What happens if we consider multiple wires, spaced about 3' apart like one wire to each piece of flex track? Without looking at the math, I be the resistance and voltage drop goes way down as you attach one feeder to every piece of rail. (Assuming your rail joiners are passing at least SOME power, which they probably are.)
Puckdropper
|
Thanks DonW: I agree with 99% of what you say. No problem. But, as we both know. Experience comes with time. I am 85 yrs old and don't expect to need operation for very many more years. So it's highly probable that I won't have to worry. Not enough time to have problems. And if I do in 5 more years, may not be able to do anything about it anyway. LOL
MR used to say "Model Railroading is Fun", and we are both having that.
Just a reminder. When I think there's dust, I use a soft toothbrush to clear points. When I run trains, watch for any problem and fix it asap. With a shelf layout, that is easy. As is throwing turnouts. I added the slide switch because I also try something a lot of us should be doing. I try extremely hard to Not Touch cars, locos or track. Finger oil can do a lot of damage - to weathering, to conductivity in the rails, etc.
A say that about weathering because I don't "fix" it. I use incense ashes, dabbed with a brush and then - "don't touch". Obviously, there's exceptions, and that's when a quick brush with ashes re-weathers quickly and covers any finger marks. Also, when touching cars, if I can, try to touch only the trucks. Again, with a 12" depth, is not too difficult.
Sorry. I realize this is "off wiring". but if anyone gets a little help from anything we say on the forum, is good.
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
PennsyNut,
Yes, more info about alternate methods is always welcome. I'm glad what you are doing works for you.
My railroad is deeper than yours. Many turnouts aren't handy from the edge of the benchwork or easily connected to a slide switch near the edge. I motorize my turnouts because I don't like reaching across the layout to move points or uncouple cars. I've done that on other layouts during ops sessions, and find there is too much chance of damage to structures and scenery, and even to knock rolling stock off the track.
I'm certain your railroad is fun to operate! Often, I spend an hour or more operating trains in one of my yards, just moving cars to their proper classification tracks or making up the next train for departure, and never run a train on my mainline.
Spring loaded points, plus a bit of extra pressure from the slide switches seem to be enough for your railroad, at least for now. But, corrosion and oxidation happen over time, dust falls into gaps and works its way under moving rails, and so on. Frequent use helps keep problems in check, but some problems develop or get worse over time.
I worked in electronics and rather like motorized turnouts. I do try to minimize the electrical things that must be worked on under the layout. It's much easier to fix things at the workbench! So, for example, I have a connector in the wiring between my switch machines' contacts that switch point power and the turnouts. I can easily remove the switch machines for service at the workbench. Some of my turnouts don't yet have those connections and work OK, but eventually they will develop problems. I'm adding point power wiring in parallel with the points' action to keep my railroad running more reliably.
My primary railroad is HO, but I also have a loop of G gauge track on shelves around the room. Those locos are battery powered, and I move the LGB turnouts' points by pushing them. The friction from the LGB switch machines does a good job of keeping the points against the stock rails. I've had no problems caused by the points.?
So, I use different methods, depending on the situation, and enjoy running trains with all of them.
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
|
On Friday, September 27, 2024 at 06:54:03 PM CDT, PennsyNut <fan4pennsy@...> wrote:
Here's what I did to solve a minor problem. I use Insulfrogs and rely on hand throw, hence point feed. I have over 24 turnouts. About a year or so after laying all track, and operating. One turnout had point feed failure. I simply cleaned with Mineral Spirits, using a microbrush. And followed up with a dab of graphite/same microbrush. That turnout is still functioning. And all turnouts function correctly - after 6+ years. No wires. No frog feed/the frogs are plastic.
So, all this nonsense about point feed is just that. I suspect that a dab of graphite from time to time would be a lot easier than wiring.
Admittedly this may be due to temperature, humidity, etc. But does this not make a lot of excess work unnecessary?
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
For those interested, you can look up the Ohms per 1,000 feet for each gauge of wire () and easily calculate the voltage drop for any gauge and length of feeder wire.? For example, a 22 gauge 2 foot long feeder wire carrying 1 amp of track power will have a voltage drop of 0.0324 volts which is insignificant,? Formula is Voltage Drop = R/1000 X Amps X Length.? If you were to go to 24 gauge wire, voltage drop would rise to 0.0524, still insignificant.
?
Good Luck, John Moonan
|
Thanks.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 09/28/2024 4:34 PM CDT Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:
In my experience, no, you do not need different gauge wiring. 22 gauge and up will work fine. Stick with one and get working! Jerry Michels
|
In my experience, no, you do not need different gauge wiring. 22 gauge and up will work fine. Stick with one and get working! Jerry Michels
|
3CURLY3 responds: ? ¡°I went to the experiment link but did not find info about length. Need to know if different wire guages are needed due to various different lengths: Here are feeder lengths from some sidings to buss wires: 14", 16", 17", 18", 20", 21". ¡° ? Most systems manufacturers recommend 22 AWG for track feeders. ? I¡¯ve used wire stripped from old phone wire (24/26 AWG) for track feeders with great success up to two feet in length, but this was a hand laid track layout and every piece of rail had its own feeders, ? The tables Allan pointed out to you suggest that 24/26 AWG would be fine for runs up to two feet (all the lengths you mention above). ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA
|
DonW: Yes, all my locos are BLI steam with 8 or more drivers. (And from time to time, run diesels just for fun.) I am not trying to tell everyone else how to do this. I'm only telling how it works for me.
As for time. I would think that 6+ yrs is enough. If I'm not having trouble now, and do have trouble in the future. I will simply try my MS and graphite again.
And if and when that fails, will rethink the situation.
As for Shinohara, or ME, or Atlas or any other. I don't have any experience. Just with my PECO code 83. Could it be that the spring points are sufficient?
And I certainly will agree that with motors, wired frogs, etc. are more reliable. I'm merely giving an alternative.
So, all I can suggest as of now is: Give the MS and graphite a try. And see if that don't work for you. I do check from time to time to make sure the points still have continuity. A simple meter does that.
FYI. My layout is a 12" by 24' shelf. Lot's of switching. And you can imagine that with 24 turnouts, lot's of fun. Every turnout is thrown with a slide switch that helps make a solid point to rail, in addition to that spring. Could it be that the spring plus positive throw with a slide switch is enough?
I have always tried the K.I.S.S. principle. Minimum wiring, etc.
So my main point is that there's always alternatives. More than one way to swing a snake!
And since I'm frugal, the "not wiring or motor control" is a savings.
Final point. This forum is about wiring. And if I can show a way with less wiring, isn't that a good alternative?
Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952.
|
Jim Betz
Myron Lind
Robert Hughes