Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Thanks Dan!
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I greatly appreciate the feedback I receive.
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I learn every time!
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Eric
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Hi Eric,
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I have used APC Surge protectors since they were in business back in the early 1980's They've never let me down. Tripplite is another great brand.
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Dan
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Thanks to you, Allan, and Don.
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I finally learned about it! I know what to expect and to make a wise choice. I'm going to do some research with the different businesses we have here in Canada.
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I'm already familiar with the TVS diodes in the EB1 NCE and PSXX DCC Specialties circuit breakers (Thanks Larry Puckett). Plus those that we can install in locomotives.
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Future topic for your web site ?!
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Once again, Thank you very much!
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Eric
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Hi Eric,
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I confess to not being an expert on surge suppressors. I can tell you what I do know.? If anyone knows more or better than I, I welcome your input.
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Every time a surge suppressor protects against a surge, it puts some wear on the suppressor.? Eventually, they need to be replaced.? So definitely get one with a light on it indicating it is still working.? This is not just a power light if the unit has a switch.? You want to get one with a light that is labeled with something that says it is protecting.? So some strips will have two lights - a power on and a protect light.
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A key number in suppressors is the number of Joules (J) it is rated for.? This is how much total surge energy it can protect against.? So the more the better.
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I didn't see a significant difference in the Hammond suppressors you found on Digikey.? As you noticed, a good suppressor cost money.? I think it is important that it not only protect between the incoming power, but between the power leads and ground.? Unfortunately, you can't tell when you are buying one that it built to do this.? I would definitely think the cheaper ones do not.
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The amperage rating is just how much the plug strip or whatever can handle through its power cord and internal parts.? This is not a function of the internal surge suppression components.? Surge suppressors are placed across the incoming power.? In normal operation, power does not flow through a surge suppressor.? Only during a surge event do the surge suppression components conduct power.
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The Hammond units you found on Digikey can be mounted in a rack.? I doubt you have a rack, so you may be paying for an industrial device you don't need.
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I have seen some suppressors that you can buy that come with some sort of warranty to protect your equipment. You're paying for that warranty when you buy that product. In concept, its not a bad idea.? Most suppressors, when honest in their advertising, state they do not protect in a direct strike. A direct strike is a pretty intense thing!
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You can definitely take this to an extreme.? For my garden railroad in TX, I put surge suppressors between the rails coming into my garage and also between each rail and a ground bus that I attached to a ground rod right by the garage door.? Unless you have a garden railroad, I'd say this is more than you need to do to an indoor layout.
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I do think it is a good idea if there is a way you can directly ground the surge suppressor strip.? But in most homes, you have to rely on your home's ground connection in the outlet.? For a lightning hit, this probably isn't good enough.? But running a ground bus to your model trains is a bit extreme.? If you are going to do this, you'd want to do your TV and just about any device in your home.? This isn't really practical.
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Note that if a reader wants to put surge suppressors (Transient Voltage Suppressors - TVS) on their G-scale layout, get ones that voltage rating is about 35V or just above your track voltage.? This is the voltage point that it will activate.? A typical home suppressors won't trigger until the surge exceeds your normal home wiring voltage.?
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You can buy plug strips with suppressors and indicator lights on that at home improvement stores.
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Allan Gartner
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Eric,
Tripp-Lite certainly makes good products. I think surge protectors sold at Best Buy are also good. Just make certain the packages say all three wires are protected. That means there's a surge protector to the ground wire from the hot and neutral wires, in addition to one between them.
Also, the MOVs in surge protectors are gradually degraded by absorbing the transient energy. So, their protection gradually becomes less. I've not done this myself, but it probably would be smart to replace them eventually, say every five years or so. Years ago, I read that most residential lines experience at least one transient of 1,000 Volts or more every day. Some are on the power coming into the residence, others are created in the residence from switching motors or other large inductive loads on and off. So, it's not just storms that cause degradation of the transient protection.
Don W
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Thank you David for your response!
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I found a Surge Protector from Hammond Manufacturing on the Digikey website.
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Although I have a lot of knowledge of DCC, there are several features of the Surges Protector that I am not really familiar with.?
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What features should I consider when making my purchase decision?
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Mr Gartner, I need your help.
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Eric
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Re: Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
I use the commercial-grade surge protectors from Tripp-Lite. Not low price, as you might guess.
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Surge Protector for DCC Command Station/Booster
Hi every body !
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Consulting the NCE website, for the new Command Station PH5, it is recommended to use a Surge Protector. But, how to determine a GOOD Surge Protector? I definitely don't want to buy Dollar Store quality... I know, the Surge Protector is not designed to protect against lightning strikes.
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Thanks
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Eric
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I¡¯m with Jerry M. On this one too. I assumed that the only accessories that would need that much power (12V x 30A) would be multiple boosters.
And if a manufacturer puts multiple boosters in the same package with a single power input connection¡ they can do that because they have all the internal DC connections available to them. (The ¡°booster common¡± connection spoken of elsewhere is the internal negative wire to the DCC output switching section)
DonV
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Sorry, I went off on the wrong tangent. Since this is a wiring for DCC site, I assumed too much. Jerry Michels
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Makes sense, thanks Don!
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dan
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Dan,
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I think it makes sense to fuse the various buses or branches powered by your 30 Amp supply, to protect devices that might accidentally short the 12V, and not have as much as 30 Amps heating up the circuit wiring and possibly welding the short circuit path. That's the same reason automobile fuse blocks exist.
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Normally, you should fuse for about 1.5 times the load current. Wiring that carries the normal load current without much voltage drop should be adequate for that much current without overheating or other harm. So, the ideal fuse sizes to use depends on each circuit's load. But, you could just standardize on one adequate value, perhaps 5 Amps, as long as the wiring is at about 18 gauge or heavier and the largest normal load is about 4 Amps or less.
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I don't think you normally would want to divide your 30 Amps available power into 10 to 15 separate fused circuits with 2 or 3 Amp fuses, and that many power buses. Four or five buses with 8 Amp or 10 Amp fuses should be adequate for most power distribution needs. Ten or more fused circuits probably aren't needed. If there is some unusual issue to justify it, please share what it is.
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Don Weigt
Connecticut
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Don,
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Ummmm, I'm confused. Where did boosters come into the discussion? The discussion that I have been following has been on a 12VDC buss for powering accessories (not boosters) and using a fuse box to protect the branches.
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? If you need separate power supplies for DCC boosters, why does Digitrax sell a big power supply to power more than one booster?
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Richard W
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On Thu, Sep 5, 2024 at 01:41 AM, Don Vollrath wrote:
Dan and others¡ EVERY DCC BOOSTER NEEDS IT¡¯S OWN ISOLATED POWER SUPPLY !!
The electrical design of practically every commercial DCC booster starts with a full wave rectifier, which means that you do not have direct access to the internal DC supply that feeds the DCC power switching bridge for the track. So Dan¡¯s idea of using a single power supply to feed and operate multiple boosters simply doesn¡¯t work. (Yes, one COULD somehow break into the boosters to gain access to the necessary connection. But doing so would certainly violate any warranty of the manufacturer.)
DonV
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Since a full wave rectifier passes input power of both polarities, including AC, but rectified to be one polarity, you could connect multiple boosters to a single large DC supply. But, most boosters with AC inputs probably include voltage regulators, you would need to supply a higher voltage to leave some "headroom" for the regulator to reduce the input voltage to the track voltage, plus the 1.4V or more lost across the bridge rectifier.
My EasyDCC boosters use external regulated switching DC supplies for power, so definitely could be connected to a shared supply. But, there is danger here that one rail might not have short circuit protection in the booster circuit.?
Effectively, it would be the same as powering them from different supplies, but then connecting their commons together, which is recommended. So, if your boosters work the same as my EasyDCC boosters, they could share one supply. But, any one booster with its output shorted might pull down the supply voltage to all the boosters sharing the single power supply. Suitable switching power supplies?are pretty inexpensive. I would stick with a separate supply for each booster.
Don W
-- Don Weigt Connecticut
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Seems the more I read in this thread, the more confused I get.
We are using 8-amp MeanWell power supplies. Each power supply is connected to two DB220s, so four boosters per power supply. Our turnouts are all Tortoise and have their own power supply. We've operated this way for years. We used to use PM42s, now BXP88s, to provide short circuit protection. We had a breaker for each power supply, but when we made the changeover from PM42s to BXP88s, we took them out since we never tripped one of these breakers. The layout is routinely "abused" by operators derailing trains, running through turnouts, crap being left on the rail, etc. Even fools who use a piece of metal to intentionally short out a block for "fun." You name a way to short a block, and I have probably seen it.
Each booster runs through a separate, panel-mounted Ramp Meter (i.e. two meters for a DB220).
We can run up to six sound-equipped locomotives per block, perhaps more, but if we exceed six per block, if a locomotive derails, the in-rush of power is usually too much to start up all six locomotives at once.
Since the BXP88s instantly cut to power to a block with a short circuit, why is another breaker needed? Never melted a feeder, nor have I ever found a wire running hot.
FYI, wire from the command station/boosters to the BXP88s and from the BXP88s to a terminal block that connects the busses is 18ga., bus wire is 12ga., track feeders are 22ga. All wire is stranded. We have a DSC240, three DB220, and three DB200+. Cooling fans are mounted to direct air flow to the heat sink fins on the rear of the command station/boosters
Jerry Michels, Amarillo Railroad Museum
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Hi Don,
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I wasn't very clear in my post; sorry.
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My question has nothing to do with DCC. It's about sending 12V power to the various industrial districts on my railroad.
It's about the 12V power bus used to power switches, lighting, and LCC components. I posted here as I wasn't sure where else to post a 12V question about wiring and protecting circuits.
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My NCE DCC components are all powered through an APC Surge Protector on an isolated outlet.
Dan
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AND¡ the boosters need more than 12 volts DC input to produce the 12-16 V DCC output to the track
DonV
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Dan and others¡ EVERY DCC BOOSTER NEEDS IT¡¯S OWN ISOLATED POWER SUPPLY !!
The electrical design of practically every commercial DCC booster starts with a full wave rectifier, which means that you do not have direct access to the internal DC supply that feeds the DCC power switching bridge for the track. So Dan¡¯s idea of using a single power supply to feed and operate multiple boosters simply doesn¡¯t work. (Yes, one COULD somehow break into the boosters to gain access to the necessary connection. But doing so would certainly violate any warranty of the manufacturer.)
DonV
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Re: DCC CURRENT & VOLTAGE MEASUREMENTS
Great info Ken and all.?
thanks.?
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Dave
Portland, OR
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Re: DCC CURRENT & VOLTAGE MEASUREMENTS
NCE has an internal supply that reduces the incoming voltage to a track voltage that is adjustable.? If the internal supply were analog than an incoming current meter would be accurate.? It is likely that a switching regulator scheme is used to produce the track voltage.? These supplies are more like constant power devices.? So if the incoming voltage and current were 16 Volts and 5 Amperes and the track voltage was set to 12 Volts than the track current would be 6.7 Amperes.
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If your booster's track voltage is adjustable than measuring the input current would not tell you directly what the output current is.
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Best,
Ken Harstine
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littlered
DanBrewer
David Gibbons
fire5506
Ken Harstine