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Re: Feeder wire
On my layout I have four main runs from the PM42. each run is 12G.? Feeders off of these to the track are #22. Most are in the range of 12 - 14 inches but have a few that are more than 14 inches. I have not seen any change in Loco operation on my Red Oak N-Scale Layout. JoAnn Donaldson |
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Re: Feeder wire
How do you get a large blob of solder?
Clean, secure, flux, heat, rest. Clean the rail with a fiberglass scratch brush. They're inexpensive and available on Amazon eBay and other places. You should do this on new from the hobby shop rail, you MUST do this on older oxidized rail. Secure the wire in place, you can do this just by holding it. Apply flux. Use an electronics flux. I've never cleaned flux after soldering rail, but it's necessary for PC boards. Clean the tip of the iron, then apply solder to it. Touch the iron to the feeder and push it into the webbing of the rail. The flux will sizzle and just enough solder will transfer from the iron to the rail and feeder. Remove the iron and hold the wire in place without ever moving it for a second or two while the solder cools. You'll never get a solder blob using this method. |
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Re: Feeder wire
I certainly agree with SteveH. What I am saying though is: When soldering to the inside of the rail. You must be very careful. It can be tricky to get the exact right amount of solder. Enough to make a solid joint, but no blobs, etc. So yes, it can be done. But as said about the bottom of the rail, requires skill.
What I do know from experience. Is that you need to take the time to determine the best way, and then, thank goodness - the more you solder feeders, the better you get at it. And by the time you finish a few hundred feet of track, you are an expert. And can be proud of what you accomplished. Soldering is a skill that "every MR must learn". So valuable to have that knowledge. As for me, I hated weathered rail. And if you can learn to solder feeders to code 40, 55 or 75, you do become an expert. It's far easier to solder clean rail and then paint it later. Painting rail and track is not difficult. ? Or for me, a lot easier than soldering weathered rail. (I simply dabbed the spot on the rail with cleaner, a dab of flux, a quick dab of solder. And tin the feeder wire. And when attaching, didn't need a lot more solder. In fact, a little bit'l do ya! With weathered rail, you Have To scrape the weathering away. Some solder don't like the weathering.) Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952. |
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Re: Feeder wire
Morgan,
? All of my rail is weathered (painted) ... after it is installed (and wired) but before it is ballasted.? I use #22 or #26 gauge wire and it disappears as soon as it is painted.? YMMV. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Jim in the PNW |
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Re: Feeder wire
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýMorgan Bilbo shares: ? ¡°My first comment is about length. If the feeder wire is 12" or less, #22 will work great. Solid, copper, etc. Longer than that might be OK, per others experience.¡± ? Smaller feeders over slightly longer distances shouldn¡¯t be a problem.? When providing feeders to every section of track, we¡¯ve successfully utilized phone wire sized feeders up to 16¡± when needed without impacting performance on a layout with monthly operations over a period of 12 years.? Solid was great as it allowed us to bend the feeder so it would lay down on the base of the rail.
? It takes a certain set of skills to manage the effort to solder to the bottom of rails and get that feeder to drop into the hole one has drilled.? Not all are capable of that.? A skill I wish I had. ? ¡°And to solder that feeder on the far side of the near rail makes it in the flangeway. So, if your track is already laid, then you must be very very skilled with soldering to keep those wires as thin and neat as you can. No large blobs of solder allowed.¡± ? A non-issue if one uses small enough feeder size wire and develops their technique.? I have friends who can consistently solder feeders to the inside of the rail without interfering with rail/wheel clearances. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA |
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Re: Feeder wire
My first comment is about length. If the feeder wire is 12" or less, #22 will work great. Solid, copper, etc. Longer than that might be OK, per others experience.
But what I didn't do and now wish I had. Was to solder the feeders to the bottom of the rails before installation.. I know that makes it harder, but IMHO having a wire soldered to the side of the rail is ugly. And to solder that feeder on the far side of the near rail makes it in the flangeway. So, if your track is already laid, then you must be very very skilled with soldering to keep those wires as thin and neat as you can. No large blobs of solder allowed.? Morgan Bilbo, DCC since 8/18. Model PRR 1952. |
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Re: Feeder wire
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýJohn inquires: ? ¡°¡¯I'll be using 22 awg solid wire. I'm seeing different descriptions such as solid copper hook up, sold tinned copper with pvc insulation, silicone and others. I'm sure there are other types also so my question is what is/has everyone used successfully?¡± ? 22 AWG is fine, recommended by many, including many DCC systems manufacturers.? ? Personally, I¡¯ve had great success with solid copper phone wire sized feeders of 16¡± or less in length.? I prefer this as the solid wire can easily be formed to lie nicely on the flange of the rail when soldering.? I do drop feeders from each piece of rail, so distance is not an issue. ? As to characteristics of all other wire types, its pretty much irrelevant.? Use what works for you. ? Best regards, ? Steve ? Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA |
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Re: Feeder wire
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýHi John, ? The type of insulation doesn¡¯t make the wire work any better as far as electricity is concerned.? But type of insulation can make it oil and gas resistant as well as fire resistant.? Some of these can be hard to strip without the right stripper.? If you look at some of these, the price of some of these will give you sticker shock.? Since I don¡¯t leave my layout on except when I¡¯m using it, there is no compelling reason to use expensive insulations. ? Don¡¯t worry about the term ¡°hook up wire.¡±? It¡¯s just wire.? Tinned wire does not oxidize as fast and a BIT easier to solder.? (If you use liquid flux like recommended on my website, you will have just as easy a time soldering wire that is not tinned.)? I like tinned wire, but most hobby supply places don¡¯t always tell you if it is tinned or not.? Its not a huge deal. ? About a year ago, I found Remington Industries.? ? They have a huge selection of wire.? Each roll cost a few dollars more than other hobby suppliers, but shipping is always free and you can just buy one or two rolls.? My layout is mostly done, so I don¡¯t need to buy much wire for myself anymore, but I have bought from them several times for my club. ? Various people will tell you their preference for stranded or solid wire.? For the most part, it is a personal choice.? I¡¯ll just say that for feeders, solid is smaller in diameter than stranded for the same wire gauge and as such, hides a little better up against the side of a rail.? Also, I like that you can bend it in a little L shape and is easier to get it to stay put against a rail without additional tools. ? Allan Gartner Wiring for DCC ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of
3CURLY3 via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 9:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [w4dccqa] Feeder wire ? I'll be using 22 awg solid wire. I'm seeing different descriptions such as solid copper hook up, sold tinned copper with pvc insulation, silicone and others. I'm sure there are other types also so my question is what is/has everyone used succesfully?? Wires will be attached with resistance soldering per Allan Gartners June 2021 Model Railroader article to Atlas HO code 100 NS.? ? Thanks, John? |
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Re: Feeder wire
For what it is worth, the Amarillo Railroad Museum uses 22 gauge stranded soldered every three feet as practical using a Weller soldering iron with a small, pointed tip. We tin the rail and wire first, then make to joint. This procedure produces small and secure joints. We used either brush on liquid or paste rosin flux. Our "oldest" joints are over 10 years old. Jerry Michels
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Re: Feeder wire
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI ?estimate I have over 750 feeders all with 22 awg solid wire.?? Length ranges from 3-6 inches. Most are 3 inch or so long.? No issues for 10 years¡.
? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of 3CURLY3@...
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 9:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [w4dccqa] Feeder wire ? I'll be using 22 awg solid wire. I'm seeing different descriptions such as solid copper hook up, sold tinned copper with pvc insulation, silicone and others. I'm sure there are other types also so my question is what is/has everyone used succesfully?? Wires will be attached with resistance soldering per Allan Gartners June 2021 Model Railroader article to Atlas HO code 100 NS.? ? Thanks, John? |
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Re: Feeder wire
I use solid core network or phone wire. It's cheap, strips easily (do buy a proper stripper), and being solid stays in place nicely. Allen's feeder experiment shows that longer feeders are ok, so I usually cut 16-20 inch lengths. Easier to work with and if it's too long you can cut them. One of those spring loaded strippers that separates the wire works great on the buss.
Phone/network wire also makes great wire ties. Puckdropper |
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Feeder wire
I'll be using 22 awg solid wire. I'm seeing different descriptions such as solid copper hook up, sold tinned copper with pvc insulation, silicone and others.
I'm sure there are other types also so my question is what is/has everyone used succesfully??
Wires will be attached with resistance soldering per Allan Gartners June 2021 Model Railroader article to Atlas HO code 100 NS.?
?
Thanks,
John?
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Re: Obtaining Local Wiring Help
So far I have found only one N Scale Modeler but he is into N-Track. He offered to help me make a N-Tack Module but I am doing a table top Model of the Red Oak Line from MR Magazine. He was not interested in larger layouts. ? There is going to be a big Model Railroad Show in September, so I will wait and see if I can find someone there that can help me.? I have 95% of the rack layed and working, but have a couple of places that need redone. ?? I once belonged to a big Model Railroad club but had to drive half way to Ft. worth just to attend meetings and it was HO Scale. Again they were in to Modules and not Home Layouts. They used to setup at various Libraries and we would run trains for a day or two. JoAnn Donaldson
On Sunday, June 9, 2024 at 09:52:20 AM CDT, Allan AE2V <bigboy@...> wrote:
Every once in a while, people reach out on the Internet for local wiring help. In order for this to work, someone in your area needs to be reading the post.
Maybe more effective is to reach out at your local train store to see if they know anyone willing to help others in the area. Maybe they will even let you put up a flier there.
Of course, reach out to local clubs and the NMRA and see if they have anyone that can help you.
Modelers in the Dallas, TX area, like JoAnn who asked this question are lucky. There is a very active NMRA division there and 22 train clubs as well as a great local train store (Discount Model Trains)
There are modelers across the country that you can hire to help you with wiring or any other aspect of model building.
Start your own club! When I lived in the Dallas area, I had a large layout. If I did all the work myself, it might not have ever gotten it finished. So I started my own club. I provided pizza and drinks and once a week, about a half dozen modelers would come and work on my layout. It was like a club, but without dues. So modelers who didn't or couldn't have their own layout, had one in mine. They didn't have to spend any money and as it turned out, some spouses were glad to get their husband out of the house for an evening. That's why my website says: Listen to your wife. "Go play with Allan's trains!" My situation wasn't unique. Many large home layouts have a crew of people that help them with it.
So if you need wiring help, try one or several of the above suggestions.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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Obtaining Local Wiring Help
Every once in a while, people reach out on the Internet for local wiring help. In order for this to work, someone in your area needs to be reading the post.
Maybe more effective is to reach out at your local train store to see if they know anyone willing to help others in the area. Maybe they will even let you put up a flier there.
Of course, reach out to local clubs and the NMRA and see if they have anyone that can help you.
Modelers in the Dallas, TX area, like JoAnn who asked this question are lucky. There is a very active NMRA division there and 22 train clubs as well as a great local train store (Discount Model Trains)
There are modelers across the country that you can hire to help you with wiring or any other aspect of model building.
Start your own club! When I lived in the Dallas area, I had a large layout. If I did all the work myself, it might not have ever gotten it finished. So I started my own club. I provided pizza and drinks and once a week, about a half dozen modelers would come and work on my layout. It was like a club, but without dues. So modelers who didn't or couldn't have their own layout, had one in mine. They didn't have to spend any money and as it turned out, some spouses were glad to get their husband out of the house for an evening. That's why my website says: Listen to your wife. "Go play with Allan's trains!" My situation wasn't unique. Many large home layouts have a crew of people that help them with it.
So if you need wiring help, try one or several of the above suggestions.
Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC
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Re: Wiring
If there is someone in the Dallas, TX area that could give me a hand at finishing my N Scale trackage.? I have developed tremors in hands and has become difficult in working with N Scale track. JoAnn Donaldson
On Friday, June 7, 2024 at 08:29:51 PM CDT, Steve Haas <goatfisher2@...> wrote:
Puckdropper comments: ??????? "There are some people who prefer to use as few feeders as possible. Maybe they can't get the feeder attached without melting the ties. Rather than get help (Nashville, TN, I'm hireable), they just avoid the problem." There are quite a few in the hobby that for various reasons are unable to complete some of the tasks useful to the creation of a high performing layout.? There's no reason those of us in better shape and/or with more polished skills not to reach out to these folks and help them out. I'm in the Seattle area; just as Puckdropper is willing to help folks in/near Nashville, I'm willing to help folks in this area that need DCC support for their layouts. "One understandable application for as few feeders as possible is track plans that change often.? I did that as a kid, and feeders would just get in the way.? I'd pull up all the track and try something new.? Great fun. :)" Now that's a set of circumstances I'd never thought of. ? I'll admit to being oriented to semi-permanent long term layout design as opposed to the "try something new" approach.?? If one is dealing with large quantities of sectional track frequent redesign could lead to wear and tear on those rail joiners.? Perhaps we need a whole new subset of "Best Practices" for short term layouts.? "If you are melting ties, you're keeping heat on the rail for much too long.? Clean the rail with a fiberglass scratch brush, apply flux and use a quality iron with a tip sized for the rail.? You want everything clean so you can get in and out fast.? Clean your iron by wiping the tip with a bit of damp paper towel or a damp sponge just before you touch the tip to the rail." Puckdropper offers good advice, To which I can add a lot of folks use too little heat on their irons - get the iron hot, then get in and get out fast.? Make sure your iron/gun is at full heat before applying it to the joint. Best regards, Steve Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA |
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Re: Wiring
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýPuckdropper comments: ??????? "There are some people who prefer to use as few feeders as possible. Maybe they can't get the feeder attached without melting the ties. Rather than get help (Nashville, TN, I'm hireable), they just avoid the problem." There are quite a few in the hobby that for various reasons are unable to complete some of the tasks useful to the creation of a high performing layout.? There's no reason those of us in better shape and/or with more polished skills not to reach out to these folks and help them out. I'm in the Seattle area; just as Puckdropper is willing to help folks in/near Nashville, I'm willing to help folks in this area that need DCC support for their layouts. "One understandable application for as few feeders as possible is track plans that change often.? I did that as a kid, and feeders would just get in the way.? I'd pull up all the track and try something new.? Great fun. :)" Now that's a set of circumstances I'd never thought of. ? I'll admit to being oriented to semi-permanent long term layout design as opposed to the "try something new" approach.?? If one is dealing with large quantities of sectional track frequent redesign could lead to wear and tear on those rail joiners.? Perhaps we need a whole new subset of "Best Practices" for short term layouts.? "If you are melting ties, you're keeping heat on the rail for much too long.? Clean the rail with a fiberglass scratch brush, apply flux and use a quality iron with a tip sized for the rail.? You want everything clean so you can get in and out fast.? Clean your iron by wiping the tip with a bit of damp paper towel or a damp sponge just before you touch the tip to the rail." Puckdropper offers good advice, To which I can add a lot of folks use too little heat on their irons - get the iron hot, then get in and get out fast.? Make sure your iron/gun is at full heat before applying it to the joint. Best regards, Steve Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA |
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Re: Wiring
I prefer soldering two 3¡¯ rail sections together with rail joiners and adding a wire drop at that point. This provides a drop every 6¡¯ apart, but effectively, no section of rail is more than 3¡¯ from a wire drop. Also, provide drops as needed to any other rail accessory such as turnouts, crossings, etc., and twisted main bus wire under the layout as nearly aligned as possible with mainline rails.
Gary Chudzinski? |
Jim Betz
Michael Boyle