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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
The content of this topic does no longer fit in the purpose of this group so I'm closing it.
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Designer of the tinySA
For more info go to
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 05:00 AM, Jim Shorney wrote:
Wow. Just wow. You have created what we call RF Hell. You will inevitably have a high rate of signal collisions. Also the combined signal level of all your transmitters and EMI generators across all bands will be very high which will create strong signal overload of the receivers, both in-band, harmonic, and fundamental overload. Receiver overload causes distortion and even more interfering mixing products are generated. With fundamental overload a strong signal out of band blows through the front end filtering of a receiver so yes, devices in different bands can interfere with each other. You are effectively trying to put a swimming pool into a 5 gallon bucket. If you do buy an SA you will also need some attenuators so you don't overload it as well.
Your only cure is to shut everything down, clean up the EMI/RFI sources, and rebuild the system with careful planning possibly with the aid of an RF consultant. Even then you will still have issues. My former employer sold coaches wireless systems to the NFL some years back and throughout the life of the system we sent engineers to the Super Bowl every year to babysit the radios and manage interference. It was a job that I would not have wanted to do.
Thanks. I did not realize the radios could interact on different frequencies. I may be able to slightly reduce interactions by introducing some delays in certain automations that use different frequencies, such as the ones that use both Z-Wave and Wi-fi. I'm not sure if that would be of any help. Z-wave is generally low bandwidth and low traffic, but still gets overloaded if I flip a bunch of switches at once. I also did not know about the need for attenuators. Which ones would you recommend in my case ?
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An RF consultant is probably not in the cards due to my limited income right now. I'm living off savings/investments only without collecting disability benefits or pension. I have the time to learn about these issues and hopefully do some of it myself, though. I can certainly flip some or all breakers during the day and test things out, if I know how to use the tool.
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I'm sure there are many sources of issues, though. For instance just moving a vase on a table near the Simplisafe base station is the difference between some distant devices being in range or not. I can't believe they don't have at least a wall-mount for it. There are third party 3D printed ones I'm looking into, but they are not exactly pretty.
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Placing metal objects such as pots on the kitchen countertop in the center of the property likely has an effect on various RF signals traversing as well, though I have made no specific observation, and of course don't have the tools to measure that. The induction cooktop is another surface with potential for interference.
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 06:04 AM, Mike N2MS wrote:
Is there interference around the ISM frequencies:
That's what I was hoping a tool like the tinySA could help me determine.
For Wi-fi frequencies, an RF scan from my 2 wired Unifi U6-LR APs shows negligible interference on any channel, on either the 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz bands. Unifi is not capable of running an RF scan on the 7 meshed APs, unfortunately. I can partly understand why they don't do so on the 5 GHz frequencies - that would temporarily break the mesh, since the 5 GHz radio is used for backhaul. However, they still could perform the RF scan on 2. 4 GHz channels only, but don't. Having this 2.4 GHz channel scan on all 9 APs would be really useful, since nearly all the IoT devices use 2.4 GHz.
My Toshiba microwave oven interferes with the 2.4 GHz wifi. My manual mentions radio interference when in operation.
In my previous townhome, there was a GE combo microwave / wall oven from the mid-1980s. In the late 1990s, I bought the house, and had a satellite dish mounted on the outside wall immediately behind the the appliance. ?
When I used the microwave, the satellite receiver reception was adversely affected. No TV dinners for me !
I'm sure my microwave oven could still interfere with Wifi, but it's not being used very often, probably 5 - 10 minutes per day, and the Wifi issues do not coincide with microwave usage. I later remodeled the kitchen, changed the combo microwave/oven to a double wall oven, and installed a separate over the counter microwave, and the satellite interference disappeared.
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If the microwave interference with Wifi is anything similar, it probably doesn't affect a very large area.
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My microwave oven model is a Panasonic NN-SN77HS. It was top rated in Consumer Reports 3 years ago when I bought it from Best buy. I have no idea how to get information about shielding. It's certainly not in the specs. That said, I have tried placing my smartphone in the microwave oven (not running, of course) and pinging the phone from another device over Wifi, and the ping still returned. I don't recall the latency or packet loss. I could repeat the test, but I don't think it would teach me much, due to the microwave not being the root cause of the problems. But the previous result tells me the microwave oven shielding isn't that good. A perfect Faraday cage doesn't exist, though.
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 06:21 AM, Mike N2MS wrote:
This power cycling method is a good way to isolate the interference and determine if it is coming from your property or outside. I would also get a DSP Receiver such as:
Even if you cannot locate the noise you have a radio to listen to.
Thanks. My guess is that it's from my property, based on low density of building/population around here. 2 houses down is a farm. I could be wrong, of course. For radio reception, I already have an antenna on my roof which does a very good job, getting over 100 ATSC stations, as well as FM, and combined with my Marantz receiver, am not in big need of another radio or tuner. Of course, the Marantz doesn't do 10 kHz - 380 MHz, or 404 MHz - 2 GHz, but it's not a portable device either. $480 is a bit pricey to confirm the theory that the issue is from inside rather than outside. Does anybody rent these kinds of tools ?
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
Don,
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Thanks for your reply. Response inline.
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 06:01 AM, Don Jarvis - NNA6DJ wrote:
You are living in a RF hell due to having way, way too many wireless devices. As an amateur radio operator and having deployed some large outdoor wifi networks (2000+ plus devices), I have to fight RF interference on an ongoing basis. Some comments:
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- Start reducing the number of wireless devices strategically as unfortunately you are the maker and creator of your own RF hell. Change out the wireless light bulbs with regular ones in areas that will have little impact like in bathrooms, bedrooms, closets.
Actually, due to macular degeneration, I really want to be able to set at least the color temperature dynamically, and dim as needed. Some tasks and locations require daylight, and others don't. Bathrooms and bedrooms are definitely included. There is also the neat party mode effect I enjoy. Closets and laundry could use regular bulbs with fixed color temperature, but there aren't many of them. We are talking about 10 bulbs total that I could convert back to regular. I still have all the regular LEDs that are all 2700K, and many have lower lumen than I need. 2 weeks ago, I had lights replaced in my garage. 7 fixtures with 14 fluorescent tubes were replaced with 19 fixtures with 38 LED tubes. Thank got for Costco and my handyman. The lights are very bright, and I can finally see all the dark cables in my dark storage cabinets. My husband on the other hand now has to wear sunglasses in the garage if staying there too long to avoid getting a headache. I could probably grow plants there now. I don't believe these tubes are dimmable, unfortunately. It's not in the manual. I just sent an e-mail to FeiT. I would like to turn the tubes down a bit as most of the time, they don't need to be this bright all the time even for me. Unfortunately, smart LED tubes are still very rare and extremely expensive, many in fixtures with poor designs such as non-replaceable tubes, smart protocols that require cloud to operate, etc, none of which I would touch. The tubes are on a vacancy switch in the garage and are not on 24/7 - only up to 30 minutes unless we are in the garage and there is motion.
- Change the manufacture on your bulbs and buy better quality. In my radio shack, I once changed all the light bulbs to led tubes. Ist few worked great, then I purchased another brand and my RF noise levels rose from an S3 signal level to +20 over S9. Had to turn off the lights in the room to even be able to use my HF radio. Fix was to buy better quality bulbs.
There aren't many manufacturer of smart bulbs I would trust, much less suitable to use cloud-free. The Philips Wiz are the main ones I zero'ed in for that reason. There are lots of fly-by-night Chinese makers of smart bulbs that will stop working the moment they shut down their cloud servers. I do have the existing non-smart bulbs from FeIT, but that doesn't resolve the problem. I really need smart bulbs at least to control brightness.
- Solar inverter and panels are well known for having RFI issues. Research your manufacturer to see if there are any known problems or defects in the solar panels or inverters.
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The micro-inverters are 28 Enphase M215 and 42 IQ8+. The panels are of different vintage/wattage/manufacturers. There are 3 brands - Sharp, Jinko and Solarever, all installed on different dates. The system is 23.2 kW DC.
- Have a aerial (done with a drone and infrared camera) temperature study performed on your solar panels for poor/defective connectors in the panels. They are noise generators.
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Thanks. I had not heard of this.
- Convert your mesh wifi access points to wired if at all possible. Mesh AP’s significantly increase the traffic load on the wifi systems. Check your channel frequency assignments to isolate and separate spatially. On 2.4G there are only 3 clear channels and on 5G only 8 or so.
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I'm considering converting some to wired, but it will cost many thousands and be unsightly. The clients are nearly all 2.4 GHz, but due to many being out of range of the wired APs, their traffic is being carried over 5 GHz mesh. I use two separate 80 MHz channels for the 2 mesh chains, channels 36 and 149, from each of the 2 wired APs. I don't believe mesh is the bottleneck here. I know about the 3 non-overlapping 2.4 GHz channels. I believe I have spatially isolated already - ie. using channel 1 on APs on opposite sides/different floors of the house, same for channels 6 and 11. There are 9 APs, though, so 3 APs on each of these channels, and some may overlap.
- Get rid of wall warts (i.e. plug in power supplies) wherever possible. Most are VERY noisy.
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That would require replacing a lot of equipment. Even my TP-Link SX105 10gig ethernet switches use wall warts. Same for some specialized audio gear, KVM switch, some monitors, cable modem, etc. There has got to be at least 20-30 wall warts in use in the house. I have a drawer in the garage full of them with probably about 50 more unused. Just finished putting large volt/amp ratings labels on all of them last week-end now that I can finally see again in my garage. The portable Brother p-touch label printer came in very handy. Battery-powered, no wall wart.
- Look at your wifi network diagnostics on the wifi side to determine performance of each AP and find if any are being overloaded.
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Currently, with 89 Wifi clients connected in total, the 9 APs are reading 0.03 to 0.72 load average for the last 15 minutes. I just flipped a whole bunch of Z-wave smart switches in Home assistant to power more bulbs. The total client count for all APs went up to 145.? The 1-minute load average is between 0.02 and 0.61 . I would say there is no noticeable change with the increased client count. I'm going to walk around press all the non-smart switches to turn on the remaining clients. I needed to get my steps in for today. The client count went up to 252. The 1 minute load average is between 0.02 and 0.82. 5 minute is 0.01 to 0.70 . The older NanoHD units are getting higher load average - especially the one in the dining room with 50 clients. The U6-Lite with 27 clients is in the same range. The three U6-LR on the other hand all have fairly low load. Even the single hop meshed U6-LR in the master bedroom with 76 clients only has a 0.29 load average. The other two are both at 0.02 .
- I have used many Ubquiti APs and they are nice products. Great price but lower performance. Consider buying top of the line AP’s which can handle more devices and have better performance.
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Yes, that's under consideration, but I'm really not sure which other brands/models I should try. I think TP-Link Omada is one. I may not be able to spring for much more expensive gear like Ruckus or Cisco APs. They all need to be able to mesh due to the current lack of Ethernet wiring situation.
An EMI detector will be of little use as all it will tell you in the RF spectrum is saturated which you already know. Start cleaning up the RF environment.
Just a boolean "the RF environment is saturated" is not overly actionable information. There are several possible causes to my problems besides EMI, such as thick building materials, device firmware problems, defective radios, etc.? And it could well be a combination of all of the above.
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I was hoping the tinySA could give me information for each room, near each device or group of devices, for each frequency band, to see if any might be malfunctioning WRT its/their radio, and possibly remove/replace/relocate the offending devices. Isn't this what an EMI detector is for ? Or at least can be used for ?
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On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 01:21 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
TinySA may give you a glimmer of loss of coax
I don't see why.
If I measure power level x, with a SA
And then if I insert a 10 dB attenuator.... I usually see a 10 dB loss... maybe a little more due to connector losses, etc.
A matched length of coax properly terminated at each end, measured at a particular frequency, within the bandwidth specified for that coax....
That should be a reasonable approximation to an attenuator.
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 11:25 PM, David J Taylor wrote:
I would like to see how many dB loss I have in
the range of lets say 470Mhz-600Mhz.
You can see the loss at a particular frequency... but AFAIK, you can't do a sweep from 470 MHz to 600 MHz, and plot a graph.
Because, AFAIK... Tiny SA does not have a tracking gen. (You need one to sweep.)
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You have to take several (many, if you like) measurements, at different frequencies, and then use Excel (or other software) to plot a graph of Attenuation vs. Frequency. (or plot by hand.)
Since you are missing data at frequencies not measured, you can't infer that that there isn't something funky happening at those frequencies.
But if you think there is, just measure at, and around that particular frequency.
Did it this way many times.
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Re: Would like to report a new fake chinese hardware for TinySA
Erik,
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When my refund comes I will certainly be buying from one of the authorised stores that I now know about.
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Funny how a fake clone makes me discover a new project that I didn't know about.? Life can be funny at times.
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Hope you've had a good day.
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Re: Input RF switch fault found on TinySA ultra
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 10:43 AM, <flynth@...> wrote:
If you have hot air youjust tape everything surrounding the part with kapton, blast it and grab with tweezers
I prefer to use a more subtle approach, I turn my hot air station to near minimum airflow and apply background heat so that the PCBA is at perhaps 80C, too hot to touch.? I don't bother with Kapton and haven't blown a part away in years, surface tension is surprisingly strong.
Apply a sparing drop of flux to the part, ChipKwik if using.? Use a small air nozzle and hold it just above the part.? Turn it up HOT.? When you see the part melt, pick it up with your #7SA tweezers and discard it.?
Be patient, if you try to rush and lift the part prematurely you risk lifting a pad (or more), you will see the solder surface distinctly change when it liquifies.
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Binocular magnification and BRIGHT illumination help a lot, high mag not so much, I usually end up at ~8X.?
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A client spent big $$ on a USB 'scope/display combo; it was useless compared to my Antscope from Amazon:
Monocular vision = no depth perception
Poor dynamic range, pitch black shadows, burned-out highlights
Poor resolution
Short focal distance = crowded workspace
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Way better and cheaper:??
Similar to this, mine came with a 0.5X objective lens to double the working distance
Wow, twice what I paid, but I'd still do it.
I also added the articulating arm, it now covers most of my workbench. ?
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73, Don N2VGU
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Re: Input RF switch fault found on TinySA ultra
Well, since over 10 years I'm very happy with my headband magnifier. Those days bought from RS. Article Nr. 606-989 looks approximately the same. It fits also over a pair of glasses. But (yet) I don't know what about the magnification. I'd have to check it in my lab. But approx. 2.7x - like that model offers, could well apply. I only don't remind that it was that expensive.? RS offers also a more affordable product that's available up to 3.5x (Shesto, not a RS PRO product) Its advantage above a microscope: better feeling of hands movements (and greatier viewing angle), in a word: less indirect handling experience.
However, sometimes I need to check solder efforts using a small eye magnifier x5 or x7, I mean the sort that is in a conical formed tube such that you can hold it by your eye surrounding. Not because I do so (often it simply falls down), but simply by helding it by fingers while looking at approx. 10-15 cm distance. The tubing helps reduce reflections from room light. Sometimes I uses this lens when I only have to use only one hand to re-heat a questionable joint with the solder tool (evtl. prepared with a bit application of Rosin paste.
On Wed, 02 Apr 2025 16:43:06 +0200, flynth via groups.io <flynth@...> wrote:
Yes, you definitely need a microscope.
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
Rainer,
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Thank you for your reply, and sorry I can't get to everyone's reply timely.
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 04:22 AM, Rainer Hantsch wrote:
I installed many WiFi networks in my life, but I would never go above 30-40 clients on one Access Point (AP). More clients may work, but with huge impact on throughput, but it is also possible that the accesspoints cannot handle that number of MAC addresses.
I would also never install wireless repeaters (only repeating over WiFi). Every intermediate repeater reduces the throughput, so when you have 3~4 cascaded ones the construct can become very unstable ...
Thanks. I'm unfortunately well aware of the MAC address limits. The Ubiquiti APs I use advertise being able to support 200 to 350 clients each. I tested this, but this is not reality. When I disabled all but one AP, 120 clients on the 2.4 GHz band is the maximum the lone AP could handle. Subsequent connections were rejected, with a smartphone located near the AP getting an authentication error when trying to connect. I filed a case with Ubiquiti and they claim they do this because airtime is likely to become the bottleneck with this many clients. It may be true, but their specs are still false advertising. I don't have nearly enough 5 GHz clients to see if the same MAC address limit applies to that band. I could easily test whether the airtime is the bottleneck by placing 2 APs next to each other on the same channel, and seeing if I can get more than 120 clients to connect, between the two of them. I haven't taken the time, but I strongly suspect I would get >120.
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While the clients are numerous, most of them are lightbulbs, which are very low bandwidth, and support only 2.4 GHz channels. For example, my porch light Wifi bulb, which is connected to Wifi 24/7, averages 135 bps for the last 24 hours in the Unifi controller. A good chunk of that traffic is likely from smokeping that I have been running to track packet loss and latency. I disable/enable smokeping periodically for testing purposes. It significantly increases traffic as it will be pinging all devices, but is not the root cause of the Wifi problems.
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I am not using repeaters, but I'm using a mesh network, because I only have Ethernet plugs in 2 indoor locations on the same bottom floor, when there are 17 indoor locations to be covered, and many more outdoors (I haven't kept a count).
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I know that there are standards like 802.11r.? Such routers/APs support mesh radio (so they transparently hand over moving clients.? But a warning, I (still) have a few WiFi cameras in use that do not support that. Even worse, the cameras do not connect to this Mesh-WLAN and I had to define a separate VLAN without "r" especially for them.?? I doubt that every little smarthome device will smoothly support Mesh WLANs.
My Ubiquiti APs support 802.11r, and they use it for meshing. The 802.11r feature can be enabled/disabled per-SSID. I was surprised to find that my Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra does not support this. I discovered by turning off auto-reconnect on the SSID on my phone. It dropped out of Wifi every few minutes. I turned off "Fast roaming", which is Ubiquiti's name for 802.11r on the SSID, and the phone stopped dropping out. You are right that the IoT devices are not going to support this, especially as there are several brands/models of them. I could separate SSIDs, but this gets messy, uses additional airtime, and Ubiquiti has a hard limit on the number of SSIDs on any single AP per radio.
So I would start with having a close look on number and location of APs to not have too many devices connected to a particular AP. In worst case you need to add more APs and lower their signal level to make radio cells smaller.
And use copper backbones (connect every AP to the LAN switch by an individual LAN cable). Copper is LOTS faster than WiFi, and this way you also eliminate concatenated APs/Repeaters.
Currently, I have 2 wired APs, and 7 meshed. Most of the mesh links are 1 hop. There are 2 mesh links that are 2 hops.
It would cost a minimum of $5K to add 5 copper backbones, and in practice likely to be done outdoors, which would be unsightly. Running indoors can't be done inside the walls. It could potentially be done with piercing and many raceways, but I'm not even certain it can. I know the wireless backhaul is much slower, but I don't believe it is the bottleneck here. When I use iperf3 (Magic iperf app) on my Android phone, on a 5 GHz SSID, there is no point on my property where I get less than about 30 Mbps, and that is one wall away from the location of the 2 hop meshed APs, outdoors. That kind of bandwidth is more than sufficient to carry the data for 300 2.4 GHz lightbulbs. Near the 2 wired APs, iperf3 reports about 600-800 Mbps. In many rooms near the single hops, I get 150 - 500 Mbps depending on distance/walls. All of that is much slower than the 10 Gbps copper LAN between the office and home theater, and I would much prefer a copper backbone for all 9 APs, but while I may want to do i eventually, I don't believe it will solve the issue with the large number of 2.4 GHz clients. For the record, this is how the mesh network looks like today, with the vast majority of the Wiz lightbulbs turned off by relay. The Office and Home theater APs are the 2 wired ones. All the other APs are meshed. The double-meshed ones are Bar AP and Master bathroom. Master bathroom has to be double-meshed, as it is in practice out of range of either wired AP - it can technically connect, but will get < 1 Mbps throughput. Bar AP could be changed to single hop, but gets a better signal strength from another mesh AP. The average ping times for those 2-hop APs is under 10ms, so I don't believe the 2-hop are adding too much latency. They are definitely reducing the bandwidth, though.
I have several cases opened with Ubiquiti about problems related to those Tx retries and incorrect channels displayed for some mesh APs. And others related to signal strength/latency, not GUI. Note that all APs have DHCP reservations. These are not dynamic leases. Same for every client device on my IP network, whether Wifi or Wired. I'm using a /22.
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
By a few megaphones and place them around the house.
Your RF problems will disappear....
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 12:59 AM, AGA001 wrote:
As others have rightly pointed out, your system is the very definition of RF Hell, but let me throw in my two cents.
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1) You have put too much faith in wifi. Too many devices, perhaps too many operating on 2.4 GHz, perhaps too much reliance on large bandwidth protocol selection, perhaps overlapping channels. For instance, why so many wifi light bulbs at the same location if you probably do not operate them independently? Use a single wifi switch (Such as Tapo or Meross) to control several standard LED bulbs at once (also cheaper to replace when they die).
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The reason for the Wifi bulbs is not on/off control. If that were the case, I would indeed only be using smart relay switches. The Wiz bulbs allow dimming, setting brightness, color temperature, different colors, and have some neat dynamic color effects as well. These features cannot be controlled via a simple on/off relay smart switch, or even smart dimmer switch. Some software is needed to communicate with the bulbs, and the bulbs I'm using are controlled through Wifi. Philips provides a Wiz app for smartphones, but that's not what I'm using. I use Home Assistant with the Wiz integration.? Even though in practice, I only ever set the on/off status, color, etc. to the same value on all bulbs of a given circuit, that doesn't negate the need to talk to each bulb to set the parameters. I believe the bulbs support some form of IP multi-cast to lower the Wifi traffic.
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The way I want to operate the bulbs is to use a smart switch as a scene controller. Specifically, I have Zooz ZEN76 Z-wave on/off switches. One of its features is that the relay can be disabled, which they call "smart bulb" mode, in which power is always supplied to the circuit. This might sound useless, but actually the switch can then be used as a scene controller, to issue commands based on the number of presses to the upper and lower paddles. You can program up to 5 commands on each paddle. However, some software is required to respond to the Z-Wave commands. It is Home assistant again. And when it receives these commands, it can then control the bulbs and change on/off status, brightness, color, etc. The biggest downside of this mode however is that if Wifi or Home assistant are down for any reason, the lights can't be controlled anymore, because there is no one to respond to the Z-wave controller commands, or to send Wifi commands to the bulbs. At least I have made sure that everything still operates even if the ISP is down - the router, AP and Home assistant all stay up, and even my phone stays connected to Wifi without internet so the HA app can still be used.
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I have done a proof of concept in my home theater with the smart bulb mode. It happens to be working reliably in that room right now. I think having those 21 bulbs on the network permanently, as opposed to turned on/off by a relay, helps with the reliability. I control the light from 4 different wall switches / scene controllers, as well as from Home assistant remote. But the best part is that I can also control them from my infrared ARRX18G. It sends an IR signal to an AtHom IR to Wifi receiver. Home assistant then processes the IR commands over IP, and controls the lights in the theater from the couch.
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However, things become problematic if I turn on all 220 bulbs in the house, especially if they all get turned on near simultaneously, which floods the Wifi network. Right now, I have about 30 smart switches that I could configure operate in smart bulb mode, and keep the corresponding Wifi lightbulbs on the network all the time. But there are 60 non-smart switches that can't do that. But they aren't dumb switches either - they are CA Title 24 vacancy switches that I put in 15 years ago to automatically turn off the lights after 30 minutes if there is no motion. Unfortunately, the vacancy feature can't be disabled, and thus it is impossible to keep all 220 Wifi bulbs on the network 100% of the time - only about one third of them.
2) Probably too many sources of RFI, such as solar inverters, EV chargers, etc. Not much you can do about that, but a TinySA may indeed help you to identify the main culprits.
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Thank you ! The micro-inverters are all on the roof under the panels. Not sure if that changes things. But they can be turned off by breakers.
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The 2 EV chargers are in the garage, plugged in to 14-50 outlets. I could easily unplug either or both of them to test for EMI.
How would I use tinySA to detect the interference when placing it near the EV chargers, for example ?
3) Probably lots of intermodulation with so many RF sources mixing with one another on every wire mesh fence, every door hinge, every rusty bolt. Not much you can do about this, but it can definitely raise your background noise level. Again, a TinySA can help you to measure background noise levels. A total blackout measurement could provide you with a useful noise base level to compare against in the different frequency bands, but I do understand that may be easier said than done.
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Thanks. I'm retired/disabled software engineer, and have got plenty of time to do the testing, if tinySA allows for it. But I need pointers on how to achieve this.
Start by checking out the quality of your cell connection. If you were based in Europe, I would recommend you load your Android phone with an app called Network Cell Info. Don't know if they support USA frequency bands and protocols, but if they do, absolutely try it. It will tell you the truth about the actual cell service you are getting, carrier promises notwithstanding. If they don't serve your area well, look for something similar. Notice I said Android, because Apple severely restrict the capabilities of this type of app, so do not even bother with an iPhone. Pay special attention to signal levels (which will speak to their coverage) and signal to noise ratios, which will speak (to some degree) to your locally induced interference.
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No worry, I use Android. Walled gardens are not for me. There is no cell carrier that serves my area adequately. This was the case when we first toured the house before buying it 15 years ago, before there was any wireless device inside the house - be it Wifi, Z-Wave, DECT, alarm, etc. Unfortunately, the coverage has not improved. Until there is a law that forces a carrier to provide service here, I don't think it will. I used the FCC mobile app years ago to report on this. It ended up on an FCC map that I think reported 0.02 kbps for T-mobile at my address, slower than a V21 modem, but still slightly faster than the V23 upstream that was slower than my typing speed in the 1980s. I don't believe there is a point in pursuing cell interference. I can't find that particular FCC map online right now, but there is really no point for me in pursuing any interference related to cell signal, IMO.
As for the TinySA, it can do wonders for you in this application. I make my living as a professional engineer, I have one Tektronix top-of-the-line SA and one field level Rohde&Schwartz SA, and still I resort to my two TinySA's most of the time. The catch is that spectrum analyzers are tricky instrument to use effectively. You need to have a solid grasp what they do and how they do it before you can draw conclusions.
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Thanks ! I'm trying to understand how to use it before purchase.
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So buy a TinySA, just make sure you buy from an authorized source (I believe it's stateside), and don't scrimp, get the Ultra version if for no other reason than the larger screen. Oh, and do it quick before tariffs hit you, LOL.
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The larger screen is definitely a must as I suffer from a rare form of maculopathy that affects near vision, among many other things. I also see from videos that the tinySA uses black backgrounds on many screens. Can this be changed ? My vision is much worse on dark color/black background. I know most scientific instruments use black backgrounds, and a white background would use more energy, but a high contrast/white background color scheme would be very helpful, as anything with a dark background is actually low contrast for me.
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I would only buy the unit from an authorized source.
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Re: Help ! Calling Ghostbusters.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 12:59 AM, AGA001 wrote:
As others have rightly pointed out, your system is the very definition of RF Hell, but let me throw in my two cents.
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1) You have put too much faith in wifi. Too many devices, perhaps too many operating on 2.4 GHz, perhaps too much reliance on large bandwidth protocol selection, perhaps overlapping channels. For instance, why so many wifi light bulbs at the same location if you probably do not operate them independently? Use a single wifi switch (Such as Tapo or Meross) to control several standard LED bulbs at once (also cheaper to replace when they die).
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The reason for the Wifi bulbs is not on/off control. If that were the case, I would indeed only be using smart relay switches. The Wiz bulbs allow dimming, setting brightness, color temperature, different colors, and have some neat dynamic color effects as well. These features cannot be controlled via a simple on/off relay smart switch, or even smart dimmer switch. Some software is needed to communicate with the bulbs, and the bulbs I'm using are controlled through Wifi. Philips provides a Wiz app for smartphones, but that's not what I'm using. I use Home Assistant with the Wiz integration.? Even though in practice, I only ever set the on/off status, color, etc. to the same value on all bulbs of a given circuit, that doesn't negate the need to talk to each bulb to set the parameters. I believe the bulbs support some form of IP multi-cast to lower the Wifi traffic.
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The way I want to operate the bulbs is to use a smart switch as a scene controller. Specifically, I have Zooz ZEN76 Z-wave on/off switches. One of its features is that the relay can be disabled, which they call "smart bulb" mode, in which power is always supplied to the circuit. This might sound useless, but actually the switch can then be used as a scene controller, to issue commands based on the number of presses to the upper and lower paddles. You can program up to 5 commands on each paddle. However, some software is required to respond to the Z-Wave commands. It is Home assistant again. And when it receives these commands, it can then control the bulbs and change on/off status, brightness, color, etc. The biggest downside of this mode however is that if Wifi or Home assistant are down for any reason, the lights can't be controlled anymore, because there is no one to respond to the Z-wave controller commands, or to send Wifi commands to the bulbs. At least I have made sure that everything still operates even if the ISP is down - the router, AP and Home assistant all stay up, and even my phone stays connected to Wifi without internet so the HA app can still be used.
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I have done a proof of concept in my home theater with the smart bulb mode. It happens to be working reliably in that room right now. I think having those 21 bulbs on the network permanently, as opposed to turned on/off by a relay, helps with the reliability. I control the light from 4 different wall switches / scene controllers, as well as from Home assistant remote. But the best part is that I can also control them from my infrared ARRX18G. It sends an IR signal to an AtHom IR to Wifi receiver. Home assistant then processes the IR commands over IP, and controls the lights in the theater from the couch.
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However, things become problematic if I turn on all 220 bulbs in the house, especially if they all get turned on near simultaneously, which floods the Wifi network. Right now, I have about 30 smart switches that I could configure operate in smart bulb mode, and keep the corresponding Wifi lightbulbs on the network all the time. But there are 60 non-smart switches that can't do that. But they aren't dumb switches either - they are CA Title 24 vacancy switches that I put in 15 years ago to automatically turn off the lights after 30 minutes if there is no motion. Unfortunately, the vacancy feature can't be disabled, and thus it is impossible to keep all 220 Wifi bulbs on the network 100% of the time - only about one third of them.
2) Probably too many sources of RFI, such as solar inverters, EV chargers, etc. Not much you can do about that, but a TinySA may indeed help you to identify the main culprits.
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Thank you ! The micro-inverters are all on the roof under the panels. Not sure if that changes things. But they can be turned off by breakers.
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The 2 EV chargers are in the garage, plugged in to 14-50 outlets. I could easily unplug either or both of them to test for EMI.
How would I use tinySA to detect the interference when placing it near the EV chargers, for example ?
3) Probably lots of intermodulation with so many RF sources mixing with one another on every wire mesh fence, every door hinge, every rusty bolt. Not much you can do about this, but it can definitely raise your background noise level. Again, a TinySA can help you to measure background noise levels. A total blackout measurement could provide you with a useful noise base level to compare against in the different frequency bands, but I do understand that may be easier said than done.
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Thanks. I'm retired/disabled software engineer, and have got plenty of time to do the testing, if tinySA allows for it. But I need pointers on how to achieve this.
Start by checking out the quality of your cell connection. If you were based in Europe, I would recommend you load your Android phone with an app called Network Cell Info. Don't know if they support USA frequency bands and protocols, but if they do, absolutely try it. It will tell you the truth about the actual cell service you are getting, carrier promises notwithstanding. If they don't serve your area well, look for something similar. Notice I said Android, because Apple severely restrict the capabilities of this type of app, so do not even bother with an iPhone. Pay special attention to signal levels (which will speak to their coverage) and signal to noise ratios, which will speak (to some degree) to your locally induced interference.
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No worry, I use Android. Walled gardens are not for me. There is no cell carrier that serves my area adequately. This was the case when we first toured the house before buying it 15 years ago, before there was any wireless device inside the house - be it Wifi, Z-Wave, DECT, alarm, etc. Unfortunately, the coverage has not improved. Until there is a law that forces a carrier to provide service here, I don't think it will. I used the FCC mobile app years ago to report on this. It ended up on an FCC map that I think reported 0.02 kbps for T-mobile at my address, slower than a V21 modem, but still slightly faster than the V23 upstream that was slower than my typing speed in the 1980s. I don't believe there is a point in pursuing cell interference. I can't find that particular FCC map online right now, but there is really no point for me in pursuing any interference related to cell signal, IMO.
As for the TinySA, it can do wonders for you in this application. I make my living as a professional engineer, I have one Tektronix top-of-the-line SA and one field level Rohde&Schwartz SA, and still I resort to my two TinySA's most of the time. The catch is that spectrum analyzers are tricky instrument to use effectively. You need to have a solid grasp what they do and how they do it before you can draw conclusions.
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Thanks ! I'm trying to understand how to use it before purchase.
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So buy a TinySA, just make sure you buy from an authorized source (I believe it's stateside), and don't scrimp, get the Ultra version if for no other reason than the larger screen. Oh, and do it quick before tariffs hit you, LOL.
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The larger screen is definitely a must as I suffer from a rare form of maculopathy that affects near vision, among many other things. I also see from videos that the tinySA uses black backgrounds on many screens. Can this be changed ? My vision is much worse on dark color/black background. I know most scientific instruments use black backgrounds, and a white background would use more energy, but a high contrast/white background color scheme would be very helpful, as anything with a dark background is actually low contrast for me.
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I would only buy the unit from an authorized source.
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Re: TinaSA Ultra - Sweep command giving back random data error in dBm Field.
I have this same problem! Were you able to resolve the issue somehow?
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cheers
dom
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I want to take continuous trace data every 500 ms. I go to level? -> trigger -> and turn on auto save and set the interval to 500 ms. I believe this should give me what I want. However I do NOT get a new save every 500 ms.? I get a new save about every 30 seconds. Why is this? What settings should I change?
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Thanks,
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Re: measuring spectrum of a single pulse not feasible with TinySA?
You can also do the FFT calculation off line in python if you can capture a data plot from the scope. Most modern scopes let you transfer them to a PC to do this even if they can't do the FFT internally properly.
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Here's a you tube video with pointers to Python code that does exactly this.
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Dave's comments about the needed scope bandwidth still apply, however.
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I hope this helps without being too off topic...
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M
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Re: ?Red paused“ information, wenn running tinysa-app on windows
Thanks, Erik! I make progress to understand my new TinySa! Dr. Hartmut Brand 72631 Aichtal Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 02.04.2025 um 14:11 schrieb df2jp_1 via groups.io <df2jp@...>: ?I suppose that the tinySA screen is paused as long as remote access via the software takes place 73 Joe -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] Im Auftrag von Hartmut via groups.io Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. April 2025 13:37 An: [email protected]Betreff: [tinysa] ?Red paused“ information, wenn running tinysa-app on windows ?Hi Erik, I am running the tinysa-app on windows, everything runs well, but starting the continuous scan in the app, on my tinysa I see the ?red paused“ info in the infobar. What does it mean? The tinysa runs continuously without pause! Have you an idea? Best regards Hartmut Dr. Hartmut Brand Aichtal www.hartmutbrand.de Von meinem iPhone gesendet
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Re: Input RF switch fault found on TinySA ultra
Yes, you definitely need a microscope. If you're a hobbyist and you solder often you'll not regret buying a good microscope. Key thing is it has to be a normal optical microscope with at least 15cm~20cm of space between the optics and the work piece. It shouldn't have too much magnification. I believe my microscope has 0.5x and 1x objectives and the eyepieces are 10x. I also have 20x ones but I use them rarely. So a magnification of 5x is pretty good.
I like my microscope so much I do most of my soldering under it. I really like watching how tiny pads become molten.
Regarding this part if you don't have hot air the best way to remove it is either crush it with snips (GENTLY) or put a large ball of solder on a big chisel tip that will engulf the entire chip. Touch it and the moment solder melts it should suck the chip right into the ball of solder. It is very possible the ball will drop the moment you start lifting it so put a suitable shield in place (piece of cardboard) to move it between the pcb and the tip the moment you lift it.
If you have hot air youjust tape everything surrounding the part with kapton, blast it and grab with tweezers when you see under the microscope it became shiny(melted).
Soldering back is not that hard (with a microscope). You solder two opposing corner legs. Then you go after the rest. The easiest is to have a small tip (not the smallest, next size up) and go leg after leg. There is a technique where you do the entire side at once. I always have shorts afterwards.
You'll also need leaded solder in 0.25mm rosin flux wire (0.5mm may be OK) and so called bga flux. Make sure to wash it later (with ipa) as the thing is really corrosive.
I've replaced a tiny switch like that in a nanovna, but it was even smaller and had balls under for contacts. Still it was fine with hot air.
As others say. Be very careful if you choose to crush. Do not cut the legs. You will rip the pads off the pcb. Just crush the chip itself.
Good luck,
Based on the "fault finding" tab at , my SA ultra's input RF switch chip U22 (AS179-92LF) has failed. This chip is so tiny it seems there is not a soldering iron or tweezer small enough to replace it. It's like a microscope-dependent repair! Has anyone had success with this repair, or is it just smarter to buy a whole new SA Ultra?
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"If the signal drops much more then 6 dB, or disappears completely, the LNA (U14) needs to be replaced."
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After the above comment following LNA test and before ATTENUATE test,?I think you need to instruct that the LNA be disabled since enabling LNA disables ATTENUATE.
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Peter
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Re: Input RF switch fault found on TinySA ultra
On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 02:08 AM, Rainer Hantsch wrote:
But - honestly - hot air is definitely the better choice.???? -> I am talking of a hot air reflow workstation, not a hot-air-gun from supermarket.
Applying background heat to the PCB helps in using lower temperatures and reduces thermal stresses on the board and components.
Low-melting point solders like Chip-Quik also have their place in your rework arsenal.?
I use the paste; a surprisingly-small amount (tip of toothpick, heaping it on just makes a mess) will drastically lower the melting point of the solder, which just makes things much easier.
73, Don N2VGU
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Donald S Brant Jr
Hartmut
