Is a good question - interested in the answer to this. Given it (1200bd) is okay for SSB. If not okay, is it the total bandwidth breaking some other rule somewhere?
Louis kd2yck
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 19, 2023, at 9:50 PM, Chris Lance WW2BSA <Ww2bsa@...> wrote:
?
So, why wouldn't you be able to use 1200 baud FM packet on simplex channels between 29.60 and 29.70? You would just need a General class or higher in the USA.
?
Chris WW2BSA
On 10/19/2023 7:49 PM EDT Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
?
?
Hi Louis,
Yep, 1200bd on SSB works fine.? I used it here for a while, mobile to QTH, somewhere around 28.130.? It worked as good as FM.
We can't legally use FM for 1200bd on 10 meters, due to FCC regs.
What are you using for packet, UZ7HO's Soundmodem?? It's really easy to choose the wrong mode in Soundmodem's drop-down menu.? Maybe you or the other ham used BPSK AX.25 1200bd instead of AFSK AX.25 1200bd.? I've done that more than once.
|
Hi,
Very interesting, thank you.
For vhf I tend to use direwolf at this time. Have not tried 2400 yet, sounds fun. Generally I’ve had great success with direwolf overall, 1200 and also 300 too.
Slightly related topics alert:
I did a while back try to see just how fast I could push data through a Baofeng on FM UHF and wow, it got pretty fast - I forget now where it broke down but it was very fast. Using fldigi. Some fast psk style modes. I’m not sure fldigi does standard asfk, although it does rtty which is kind of similar but of course not identical (shame).
I would also like to try ax.25 over another modulation, say perhaps msfk and I think that’s possible by fldigi kiss support, but not tried it so far. Is on the todo list when I find a willing and participating station out there, plus some spare time…
Anyway, thanks again. All the best, Louis kd2yck
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 19, 2023, at 9:01 PM, Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
?Hi Louis, Have you guys tried 2400bd on VHF?? It's substantially faster than 1200bd and doesn't require any mods to the radio.? The 2400bd mode in Soundmodem that seems to work the best is "DW QPSK V26B 2400bd", which is also what Direwolf uses by default for 2400bd. The FCC regs can give a person a headache trying to decipher it.? Data modes are only allowed between 28.000 - 28.300.? <dummyfile.0.part> The stipulation (4) is here: <dummyfile.1.part>
|
So, why wouldn't you be able to use 1200 baud FM packet on simplex channels between 29.60 and 29.70? You would just need a General class or higher in the USA.
?
Chris WW2BSA
On 10/19/2023 7:49 PM EDT Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
?
?
Hi Louis,
Yep, 1200bd on SSB works fine.? I used it here for a while, mobile to QTH, somewhere around 28.130.? It worked as good as FM.
We can't legally use FM for 1200bd on 10 meters, due to FCC regs.
What are you using for packet, UZ7HO's Soundmodem?? It's really easy to choose the wrong mode in Soundmodem's drop-down menu.? Maybe you or the other ham used BPSK AX.25 1200bd instead of AFSK AX.25 1200bd.? I've done that more than once.
|
Hi Louis, Have you guys tried 2400bd on VHF?? It's substantially faster than 1200bd and doesn't require any mods to the radio.? The 2400bd mode in Soundmodem that seems to work the best is "DW QPSK V26B 2400bd", which is also what Direwolf uses by default for 2400bd. The FCC regs can give a person a headache trying to decipher it.? Data modes are only allowed between 28.000 - 28.300.?  The stipulation (4) is here: 
|
Hi,
Okay so great, good to know. Thank you.
We’d just been doing 1200fm (asfk) all fine and just switched rigs to SSB (lsb) only, all else as-is, so it wasn’t any other issue, unless the rigs were not ‘aligned well’ frequency wise. I did not check that…
Ah so 1200 is a no go on FM on 10. Also good to know.
So on 10m it’s 300/1200 Ssb or 300 fm (probably not that useful) only then.
It’s basically because the Carson’s rule etc on 1200 FM is too wide for HF bandwidth rules, is that right?
I had thought all HF was also limited to 300bd also regardless of mode, so the fact 1200 Ssb is allowed in hf on 10 at all is kind of an interesting niche for sure.
Will need to play with that more then. 1200 seems so fast after using HF 300 for a while hihi.
All the best, Louis kd2yck
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 19, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
?Hi Louis,
Yep, 1200bd on SSB works fine.? I used it here for a while, mobile to QTH, somewhere around 28.130.? It worked as good as FM.
We can't legally use FM for 1200bd on 10 meters, due to FCC regs.
What are you using for packet, UZ7HO's Soundmodem?? It's really easy to choose the wrong mode in Soundmodem's drop-down menu.? Maybe you or the other ham used BPSK AX.25 1200bd instead of AFSK AX.25 1200bd.? I've done that more than once.
|
Hi Louis,
Yep, 1200bd on SSB works fine.? I used it here for a while, mobile to QTH, somewhere around 28.130.? It worked as good as FM.
We can't legally use FM for 1200bd on 10 meters, due to FCC regs.
What are you using for packet, UZ7HO's Soundmodem?? It's really easy to choose the wrong mode in Soundmodem's drop-down menu.? Maybe you or the other ham used BPSK AX.25 1200bd instead of AFSK AX.25 1200bd.? I've done that more than once.
|
Hi,
Have a quick question on this.
So I’ve been playing with packet, 300bd SSB and 1200bd FM a fair bit. All good.
Now, regardless of band and so on, is 1200bd good on SSB, rather than typical FM?
FM seems to be the standard for 1200, including aprs.?
However you could try sending it over SSB, on paper seems like it might or should work. However..
A local station n1ugk and I tried today as an experiment.
We had a reliable link on 2m 1200bd FM. Then with almost no other changes we switched to LSB and it interestingly it would not decode. Packets were heard but not understood. Even with the power advantage of SSB over FM. It would just not work.?
I guess thinking about it now with hindsight perhaps it was something else, frequency offset or something maybe, a misalignment but also we know 300bd SSB works fine and it was the same rigs and all too.
Is there a technical limitation for 1200bd+ on SSB or should it have worked in theory? If it can work I guess we should go back try again and weed out the issue - but it’s made me curious. I always thought 1200bd and aprs FM preference was mainly to leverage cheap FM rigs, not because SSB would not work at 1200. Now I am curious about that assumption…
Of course on 10m, SSB and FM are both allowed in the right spots, which then also raises question of the valid combinations. 300bd Ssb, fine. 1200 FM also fine? 1200 Ssb also fine (if it ever works properly as per my doubt)? 300bd FM I guess is a weird one, probably not very useful but I suppose it is legitimate according to FCC etc all the same.
Above HF we can go to 9600 on 6m (supposing again only viable on FM) and up in UHF 56k even, do I have that right??
Many thanks, Louis kd2yck?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 19, 2023, at 2:43 PM, Warren Conklin via groups.io <wconk@...> wrote:
? Yes, probably a good freq to use.
?It looks like? 28.120- 28189, is auto control segment, and mite be a good spot, especially if there was a desire to run a BBS, and keyboard.? I thought 28.135 USB? Ish +/-? avoiding? traffic, if there is any.
Conditions are not as good as they were the weekend before last, but skip is not to bad to 4 land.? I haven't had a chance to see how the short skip is to Colo. area.
Also? SSB 1200b, would have to be used as FM would be too wide for what is allowed.
I have been working on a few projects I need to get finished, before we get a big change in the wx. but will listen on 28.135 USB.
73/warren wb7ecu
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 19th, 2023 at 6:50 AM, Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
A good area for 10m 1200bd is between 28.120 - 28.189, SSB.? There's a ton of CW beacons between 28.190 - 28.300.? There's popular watering-hole freqs for other digi-modes like PSK, FT8, JS8Call, WSPR, etc., but I think most of them are below 28.120.? During RTTY contests, anything goes apparently.
47 CFR 97.221:
(b) A may be automatically controlled while transmitting a or emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands, and on the 28.120–28.189 MHz, 24.925–24.930 MHz, 21.090–21.100 MHz, 18.105–18.110 MHz, 14.0950–14.0995 MHz, 14.1005–14.112 MHz, 10.140–10.150 MHz, 7.100–7.105 MHz, or 3.585–3.600 MHz segments.
|
Yes, probably a good freq to use.
?It looks like? 28.120- 28189, is auto control segment, and mite be a good spot, especially if there was a desire to run a BBS, and keyboard.? I thought 28.135 USB? Ish +/-? avoiding? traffic, if there is any.
Conditions are not as good as they were the weekend before last, but skip is not to bad to 4 land.? I haven't had a chance to see how the short skip is to Colo. area.
Also? SSB 1200b, would have to be used as FM would be too wide for what is allowed.
I have been working on a few projects I need to get finished, before we get a big change in the wx. but will listen on 28.135 USB.
73/warren wb7ecu
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 19th, 2023 at 6:50 AM, Jeff KP3FT via groups.io <kp3ft@...> wrote:
A good area for 10m 1200bd is between 28.120 - 28.189, SSB.? There's a ton of CW beacons between 28.190 - 28.300.? There's popular watering-hole freqs for other digi-modes like PSK, FT8, JS8Call, WSPR, etc., but I think most of them are below 28.120.? During RTTY contests, anything goes apparently.
47 CFR 97.221:
(b) A may be automatically controlled while transmitting a or emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands, and on the 28.120–28.189 MHz, 24.925–24.930 MHz, 21.090–21.100 MHz, 18.105–18.110 MHz, 14.0950–14.0995 MHz, 14.1005–14.112 MHz, 10.140–10.150 MHz, 7.100–7.105 MHz, or 3.585–3.600 MHz segments.
|
I tried connecting to K1DOW and W3RED about an hour ago, but got no replies. It might have been a bit too early for 10m here in Colorado.
But Jeff brings up a good point about the CW beacons in that range, and 28120 USB is the watering hole for PSK31, Olivia and some others like THOR.
So how about 28135 LSB @ 1200 baud? I've been listening there for a bit and haven't heard anything yet. And that puts us in the 28120-28189 segment for automatic stations, and hopefully away from any other known established frequencies.
-Steve K4RVA
|
A good area for 10m 1200bd is between 28.120 - 28.189, SSB.? There's a ton of CW beacons between 28.190 - 28.300.? There's popular watering-hole freqs for other digi-modes like PSK, FT8, JS8Call, WSPR, etc., but I think most of them are below 28.120.? During RTTY contests, anything goes apparently.
47 CFR 97.221:
(b) A may be automatically controlled while transmitting a or emission on the 6 m or shorter wavelength bands, and on the 28.120–28.189 MHz, 24.925–24.930 MHz, 21.090–21.100 MHz, 18.105–18.110 MHz, 14.0950–14.0995 MHz, 14.1005–14.112 MHz, 10.140–10.150 MHz, 7.100–7.105 MHz, or 3.585–3.600 MHz segments.
|
I'm listening to 28.212 LSB and beaconing, as well. I have the UZ7HO Soundmodem set to ASFK AX25 1200. I'll let this run for a while.
I am hearing what sounds like packet bursts, but my system hasn't decoded anything yet.
Scott
W3RED
EN21ag
Omaha, Nebraska, USA
|
Hi Steve,
I've done a lot of searching and haven't found any suggested spot in the 10 Meter band having been suggested for 1200B use. I see that digital operation has from 28.000 to 28.300 and that Beacons seem to be mostly grouped just below 28.200 Mhz. With all that in mind let's try 28.212 LSB and hope that it's clear. I'll set my beacon to every 10 minutes there today starting right now.
I will be out of town on October 20th, but should return late in the afternoon. I will got back on then if not to late. I will also try to get on 28.212 LSB over the weekend.
Hope to see you on 28.212 LSB 1200B Packet.
73/Russ
K1DOW
Arcadia, FL
|
On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 02:53 PM, Russ Tower wrote:
If there is interest in using 1200B packet on 10 meters I would like to participate.
Hi Russ, I would love to give 1200 baud a try on 10m. Do you have a frequency and mode in mind? Cheers, Steve K4RVA Colorado Springs, CO
|
I recall using1200B packet along with a sizable group on 10 Meters many years ago during the peak of a sunspot cycle. This was in the 80's or 90's a best I can recall. I believe the frequency we used was 28.190 or 28.195. I don't recall if we used USB or LSB. What I do recall is that the performance was awesome! The very short 1200B packet bursts (relative to the longer 300B packet bursts) got through very quickly and atmospheric fading was hardly an issue. A number of us were running a feature packed German developed program on Commodore C-64 computers called? DIGICOM. 1200B packet worked so well for us that we were cable to actually send and share copies of DIGICOM it's self over the air!
If there is interest in using 1200B packet on 10 meters I would like to participate. I currently use the UZ7HO 300B packet software when I do HF packet now. I believe his 1200B version should be usable on HF as well.?
Russ Tower
K1DOW
Arcadia, FL
|
Re: Network105 Spotlighted on Ham Nuggets YouTube Show!
I watched the video. Seemed like TO spent most of the time struggling to get stuff working on his RPi while the other two reminisced about 1980's tech. Pretty standard experience for Linux users, it seems. Would have been good if they could have devoted more time to exploring the different commands you can execute on a node. Hoping they return to this for a Part 2.
|
Jeff,?
I think this is the other rule part you were referring to;
? (4) Only a RTTY or data emissionusing a specified digital code listed in § 97.309(a) of this part may be trans- mitted. The symbol rate must not ex- ceed 1200 bauds, or for frequency-shift keying, the frequency shift between mark and space must not exceed 1 kHz.. . With proper setting of the A.L.C., the 1200b, 1 khz mark and space tones should fit well within the confines of the SSB signal?
Baring any fading, 1200b would move data pretty fast. I am thinking though with the fading experienced up on 10 m lately,? 1200b might get a little sketchy. On the other hand, the packets might go out fast enough to slip between the fading.
73/warren wb7ecu
wb7ecu
|
Re: Mod Level changes between apps?
Steve
Thanks for that. Even though I've been licensed since 1990 I haven't
done a lot with the digital modes until now. I did packet with a
PK88 on 2M and I set the level and forgot it. I then tried packet
again a few years ago using DireWolf and since it was one mode it
was easy. Now I'm jumping around since I've gotten on HF and the
problem reveals its self. Thank you for the assurance that I'm not
missing something. I just need to modify my process to include
tweaking. Maybe I will stop jumping modes so frequently and just
stick to one for a while. Hmmm, which one to stick to? I always seem
to gravitate back to packet since that is where I started but I'd
really like to try my hand at PSK31 and RTTY. Oooh, and there's
Olivia and Contestia. I keep calling CQ on all of them. Sooner or
later I'll stumble across another digital nomad.
73 and hope to connect up with you on packet, Steve... or PSK31...or
FreeDV even....
Mike
On 10/16/2023 8:44 AM, Steve K4RVA via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 03:24 PM, Mike N5PWP wrote:
I just want to know if I'm doing something wrong?
Hi Mike! Nope, I don't think you are, as I've had the same
problems over the years.
|
Re: Mod Level changes between apps?
On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 03:24 PM, Mike N5PWP wrote:
I just want to know if I'm doing something wrong?
Hi Mike! Nope, I don't think you are, as I've had the same problems over the years. I do the same thing as you do - I adjust the audio output level in the Windows Sound panel for maximum power / minimum ALC at the transceiver while using SoundModem, and then I adjust the audio output controls in the other software that I use (Fldigi, JS8Call, JTDX, etc.) for the same maximum power / minimum ALC. Generally that's around -3 or -4 dB in those programs. VarAC has to be at around -1 or 0 dB for the best output. I don't know why it's different than the others. I assume it has something to do with the different apps accessing the audio devices with different APIs or device drivers. It was much more difficult to get consistent levels across all of the various software when I was using my PCs internal soundcard, ie. the audio input/output on the back of the PC. I added a cheap Sabrent USB soundcard ($10 at Micro Center), and things seem to be a bit more consistent overall, but not perfect. One thing that threw a wrench in the works was Direwolf, another software TNC. For some reason it needs WAY higher audio input levels than any of the other software that I use.? Another oddity - I can adjust the individual input/output audio levels for Fldigi by using the Volume Mixer in Windows, but not for any of the other applications. Again, this is probably related to how the different apps access the audio system. Oh, and I've tried various flavors of Linux, with various audio utilities (ALSA, PAVU, and others that I don't remember) and never got it sorted out there either. Audio levels would change at random, devices seemed to disappear. It was not fun. So no, it's not you! :D Cheers, Steve K4RVA
|
Re: Mod Level changes between apps?
Thanks, Glenn. that's what I did. Unfortunately When I get Soundmodem adjusted so that it just barely shows any ALC then go to VARAC I have the VARAHF modem drive maxed out. I have to go back to windows sound level and bump it up to get it to give enough to drive it enough. So I guess for some combinations of equipment and software it is a requirement to keep tweaking it back and forth. Thanks, Glenn.
Mike
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 10/16/2023 7:04 AM, N3MEL - Glenn wrote: Mike, in windows 10 was able to adjusted my ALC for AX25 by adjusting the windows sound settings. I did have to leave a very small amount of ALC
showing on my rig (1 ot 2 bars on my 7300).
Then I went to VARA and was able to slide the audio leave up toward 0 and produced plenty of audio to drive the radio.
Now I can switch between the modes with no adjustment required.
Glenn/N3MEL
|
Re: Mod Level changes between apps?
Mike, in windows 10 was able to adjusted my ALC for AX25 by adjusting the windows sound settings. I did have to leave a very small amount of ALC
showing on my rig (1 ot 2 bars on my 7300).?
Then I went to VARA and was able to slide the audio leave up toward 0 and produced plenty of audio to drive the radio.?
Now I can switch between the modes with no adjustment required.?
Glenn/N3MEL
?
|
Chris Lance WW2BSA
Jeff KP3FT
Steve K4RVA
Russ Tower
David, K7DMJ
N3MEL - Glenn