Re: IBM offloads $16 billion in pension liabilities
This does leave a lot of dangling questions and/or issues to be dealt with (more like live with, I guess). The guarantees for annuities are defined by the states (?? and are typically $250K max payment (per company) as some kind of discounted present value calculation. That is not going to cover many pensions for those with remaining lifetimes of 20 to however many years. That is kind of disturbing. I suppose one could buy a permanent ladder of Metlife and Prudential Put Options as a hedge here (I am only half joking).?
And I cannot tell if they would continue annual payments until you have hit your max or if this is a lump sum (kind of a tax catastrophe for most of us I would think). Also from what I can glean there is no reserve fund like the PBGC (which charges annual premiums). This appears to be a pay as you go thing where when a given company cannot pay its annuity liabilities, that cost (up to the max) is shared by the remaining members. If there is some kind of major financial disaster on the scale required to put a Prudential under, they would probably be the last to go and those annuitants would probably not see anything (no one left standing to pay). Strictly from the perspective of some unprecedented global financial disaster, you are probably better off with the weakest company (not the same as better off overall, of course). The weakest would go first while there are others still standing left to pay. I know - I tend to be morbid sometimes.?
I am assuming that there are some level of regulations regarding required reserves to cover annuity liabilities but given that this seems to happen at the state level (where surely Prudential/Metlife is not dealing with 50 separate reserve funds) I am not sure how this happens or what those standards might be. From what I have seen out in the industry (particularly WRT union pensions) the standards seem to be poorly enforced. I just have no clue how this works in the annuity world (same as life insurance reserves, I assume).?
Regarding IBM assumptions and investments WRT DB pensions, back in the very early 2000's I stumbled across the assumption that IBM was making at the time when it calculated the ability of the Fund to pay pensions. It was something like 9% per year. This would not pass 2 minutes of scrutiny if they were doing a predominantly bonds kind of investing. I don't see why an insurance company would have a different equation for investing those funds vs. IBM as it was basically profit in both cases (one shows directly on the bottom line while the other is a cost avoidance). And I have to believe that there are some level of legal requirements here.?
dave
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
I'm a healthy senor (thankfully) and Medicare Advantage works
well for me. I see my GP annually and rarely in between. I see the
dermatologist twice a year, and have had several skin cancer
surgeries which were correctly treated without cost or difficulty.
My wife, on the other hand, has chronic illnesses. She has more
medical appointments on her calendar than social. Advantage was a
disaster for her - because the insurer was constantly challenging
her doctors' decisions, and even diagnoses.? We soon switched her
to a (much more expensive) medigap policy.
I will certainly consider this United Advantage offering (I'm
currently Aetna). But my wife has strict instructions that, should
I become seriously ill, to switch me to a medigap as soon as
possible.
Mike Halliday (flymike)
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
yes, Totally agree -- I also made the initial mistake of thinking this was like the standard Medicare Advantage plan and it isn't.? it is unique, home-grown, and a very good plan.? ? Best of both policies
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 11:09:05 AM EDT, Dave Naatz <dcnaatz@...> wrote:
MA's may be a scam & subsidized but they work in Minnesota at least so far.? I was able to keep my original IBM pension due to my age in the 1999 mess but got the Future Health Acct/FHA.? I took early retirement 10 years ago and burned through all my FHA funds (not hard to do at $900/mon for IBM premiums just for me, not my spouse) until I hit 65 Medicare. There's a group of health insurance advisors here that recommended a UCare MN based MA plan for us vs Blue Cross Blue Shield supplemental.? The main reason was it included?Mayo clinic as primary care and was good all over the US.? We do 4-6 weeks of snowbird travel so anything down south is an emergency; if we spent 6 months there the BCBS would have made more sense.? UCare has great coverage except a $400 prescription deductible so sometimes we use GoodRx.com for one shot prescriptions?which has some great savings since luckily neither of us has many drugs.? UCare also covers basic dental, eye care, basic health clubs and provides a good allowance for free OTC items like Tylenol, toothpaste, Voltaren etc.? I hope we can keep it up at this reasonable price.
As for the pension provider I had a discussion last week and asked "who is going to have the best financials in 20 years? IBM, Prudential or Metlife?".? MN has a $250k backing on annuities like many states and will pass on any failed accounts to another?annuity provider too.? ?There is plenty to worry about in life so unless I'm missing something this deal is not real high, but a great example of IBM "following the lead" of other?big companies like the 1999 fiasco.? ? ?DCN in Rochester MN
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 9:51 AM Darwin Busa < darbusa@...> wrote: Give it some time and you will find out that Medicare Advantage is a giant scam. I speak from experience.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 05:41 Joyce Nussbaum via <joyce_nussbaum= [email protected]> wrote:
For what it is worth, I also retired from AT&T and they had a Medicare Advantage plan last year (for the firsts time) that was cheaper and is great - it seems to combine the best of both worlds - you can see the same doctors as Medicare Original as long as they accept medicare,? ?It is combined with a drug plan.? ?have not had to have any referrals. it covers overseas travel as usual, etc.? I would think that whatever AT&T bought into is what IBM is following up with.? It is much better than the standard Medivantage plan, and had several perks that standard medicare did not - I don't recall but food deliveries and transportation for I think 30 days after some surgery I think, and the little stuff like gym memberships,. ., and although AT&T did not tell me, I don't think they thought it up - I think some other large companies had proposed this and they latched on in 2022.
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:07:07 AM EDT, JoeRoth via <jjroth= [email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl < amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already:
-- Dave Naatz? ? K?VH?? Rochester, Minnesota? gmail acct
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
this is NOT like the Medicare Advantage plan you are used to. I made the same mistake until I called and got the particulars.?? I also hated the Medicare Advantage plan -- but I repeat -- THIS IS NOT LIKE MEDICARE ADVANTAGE> The name is a misnomer.? It is a? home-grown unique insurance
On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:51:09 AM EDT, Darwin Busa <darbusa@...> wrote:
Give it some time and you will find out that Medicare Advantage is a giant scam. I speak from experience.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 05:41 Joyce Nussbaum via <joyce_nussbaum= [email protected]> wrote:
For what it is worth, I also retired from AT&T and they had a Medicare Advantage plan last year (for the firsts time) that was cheaper and is great - it seems to combine the best of both worlds - you can see the same doctors as Medicare Original as long as they accept medicare,? ?It is combined with a drug plan.? ?have not had to have any referrals. it covers overseas travel as usual, etc.? I would think that whatever AT&T bought into is what IBM is following up with.? It is much better than the standard Medivantage plan, and had several perks that standard medicare did not - I don't recall but food deliveries and transportation for I think 30 days after some surgery I think, and the little stuff like gym memberships,. ., and although AT&T did not tell me, I don't think they thought it up - I think some other large companies had proposed this and they latched on in 2022.
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:07:07 AM EDT, JoeRoth via <jjroth= [email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl < amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already:
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
Agree, anyone who thinks Advantage is worthy of their time/money need to get some religion from:
https://nrln.org/
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
Darwin,
"Give it some time and you will find out that Medicare Advantage is a giant scam. I speak from experience."
--------------------------------
Please help us by describing what went wrong with your actual experience.
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
The indicates that Kaiser, Tricare and VA benefits may be exceptions to enrolling in the Advantage plans. See the text in the paragraph by the big "2."
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Re: IBM offloads $16 billion in pension liabilities
IBM posted a that explains the criteria.
1. Who is affected by the purchase of the group annuity contracts?
The annuity purchases generally affect pensioners and surviving beneficiaries, where the pensioner commenced monthly pension payments before January 1, 2016, and the monthly gross benefit amount that is expected to be paid on January 1, 2023, to the pensioner or surviving beneficiary is greater than $2,700 or less than $1,700. The selection criteria were designed to cover a broad group of Plan participants. For beneficiaries receiving pre-retirement death benefits, see the next question.
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
I wonder if UHC will include Kaiser Permanente as a health care provider?? I accepted IBM's $500 offer to switch to an HMO 20 years ago and have been very pleased with my choice of KP - kind of a medical assembly line.
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
MA's may be a scam & subsidized but they work in Minnesota at least so far.? I was able to keep my original IBM pension due to my age in the 1999 mess but got the Future Health Acct/FHA.? I took early retirement 10 years ago and burned through all my FHA funds (not hard to do at $900/mon for IBM premiums just for me, not my spouse) until I hit 65 Medicare. There's a group of health insurance advisors here that recommended a UCare MN based MA plan for us vs Blue Cross Blue Shield supplemental.? The main reason was it included?Mayo clinic as primary care and was good all over the US.? We do 4-6 weeks of snowbird travel so anything down south is an emergency; if we spent 6 months there the BCBS would have made more sense.? UCare has great coverage except a $400 prescription deductible so sometimes we use GoodRx.com for one shot prescriptions?which has some great savings since luckily neither of us has many drugs.? UCare also covers basic dental, eye care, basic health clubs and provides a good allowance for free OTC items like Tylenol, toothpaste, Voltaren etc.? I hope we can keep it up at this reasonable price.
As for the pension provider I had a discussion last week and asked "who is going to have the best financials in 20 years? IBM, Prudential or Metlife?".? MN has a $250k backing on annuities like many states and will pass on any failed accounts to another?annuity provider too.? ?There is plenty to worry about in life so unless I'm missing something this deal is not real high, but a great example of IBM "following the lead" of other?big companies like the 1999 fiasco.? ? ?DCN in Rochester MN
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 9:51 AM Darwin Busa < darbusa@...> wrote: Give it some time and you will find out that Medicare Advantage is a giant scam. I speak from experience.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 05:41 Joyce Nussbaum via <joyce_nussbaum= [email protected]> wrote:
For what it is worth, I also retired from AT&T and they had a Medicare Advantage plan last year (for the firsts time) that was cheaper and is great - it seems to combine the best of both worlds - you can see the same doctors as Medicare Original as long as they accept medicare,? ?It is combined with a drug plan.? ?have not had to have any referrals. it covers overseas travel as usual, etc.? I would think that whatever AT&T bought into is what IBM is following up with.? It is much better than the standard Medivantage plan, and had several perks that standard medicare did not - I don't recall but food deliveries and transportation for I think 30 days after some surgery I think, and the little stuff like gym memberships,. ., and although AT&T did not tell me, I don't think they thought it up - I think some other large companies had proposed this and they latched on in 2022.
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:07:07 AM EDT, JoeRoth via <jjroth= [email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl < amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already:
-- Dave Naatz? ? K?VH?? Rochester, Minnesota? gmail acct
|
Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
Give it some time and you will find out that Medicare Advantage is a giant scam. I speak from experience.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 05:41 Joyce Nussbaum via <joyce_nussbaum= [email protected]> wrote:
For what it is worth, I also retired from AT&T and they had a Medicare Advantage plan last year (for the firsts time) that was cheaper and is great - it seems to combine the best of both worlds - you can see the same doctors as Medicare Original as long as they accept medicare,? ?It is combined with a drug plan.? ?have not had to have any referrals. it covers overseas travel as usual, etc.? I would think that whatever AT&T bought into is what IBM is following up with.? It is much better than the standard Medivantage plan, and had several perks that standard medicare did not - I don't recall but food deliveries and transportation for I think 30 days after some surgery I think, and the little stuff like gym memberships,. ., and although AT&T did not tell me, I don't think they thought it up - I think some other large companies had proposed this and they latched on in 2022.
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:07:07 AM EDT, JoeRoth via <jjroth= [email protected]> wrote:
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl < amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already:
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Re: IBM offloads $16 billion in pension liabilities
Same here as Bob, same letter, not affected YET.
Wonder when I will be and how they drew the line.
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
For what it is worth, I also retired from AT&T and they had a Medicare Advantage plan last year (for the firsts time) that was cheaper and is great - it seems to combine the best of both worlds - you can see the same doctors as Medicare Original as long as they accept medicare,? ?It is combined with a drug plan.? ?have not had to have any referrals. it covers overseas travel as usual, etc.? I would think that whatever AT&T bought into is what IBM is following up with.? It is much better than the standard Medivantage plan, and had several perks that standard medicare did not - I don't recall but food deliveries and transportation for I think 30 days after some surgery I think, and the little stuff like gym memberships,. ., and although AT&T did not tell me, I don't think they thought it up - I think some other large companies had proposed this and they latched on in 2022.
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:07:07 AM EDT, JoeRoth via groups.io <jjroth@...> wrote:
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl <amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already: https://nrln.org/
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Re: IBM offloads $16 billion in pension liabilities
Although not affected, I received this letter today (see attachment). ?
What this means is that retirees will receive their monthly checks from two insurance annuities with Prudential and MetLife.? It will show up as a single check from Prudential, but will be actually paid by both companies.? Things will look very similar to the way they do now - the amounts will be the same, But instead of the money coming from the IBM Pension fund, it will come from insurance annuity funds set up with the insurance companies.? IBM will no longer have any responsibility for the payments - now the responsibility will be with the insurance companies to properly invest and manage the annuity funds.? With the pension fund, if it became underfunded, IBM would have to add more money to it.? Now, IBM will be off the hook and it will be up to Prudential and MetLife to figure out how to cover any shortfall.
Another difference will be that the federal ) will no longer back up the pension payments should the fund get into trouble.? Today, the PBGC would cover pension payments up to about $74,000 a year for a retiree at age 65.? With the insurance annuities,the PBGC coverage is gone.? Instead, would provide coverage should the insurance company go bankrupt.? The amount of coverage depends on the state you live in, and also is based on the present value of the annuity at the time of bankruptcy, rather than the monthly (or annual) amount you receive.? This could mean that a retiree would get less than their full pension in the case of a bankruptcy.?? But before things ever get to that point, states work to transfer the responsibility for paying the annuities to other, healthy companies.? Often, they are successful in doing this and no one loses anything.
Another difference is that pension plans are not run to make a profit.? They must follow strict federal guidelines to ensure that they are able to pay all the pension liabilities.? Insurance companies are run to make a profit.? Although they are supposed to have a fiduciary responsibility to the annuity recipients, they balance that against their desire to make a profit.? Where IBM has invested the pension funds very conservatively (mostly in bonds), I expect that Prudential and MetLife will change this somewhat to get better returns by investing more in stocks and other higher risk investments.
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 09:12:34 AM EDT, BigAl <amboisvert@...> wrote:
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already: https://nrln.org/
|
Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
As a second choicer I never received the $3000, so am unaffected by this. I would however warn people about the dangers of Medicare Advantage plans and the governments attempt to privatize Medicare.? Advantage plans are heavily subsidized and are pushed by insurance companies as you can see daily on TV ads. It's sad but unsurprising to see IBM has taken the bait dangled by government and insurance companies. Read all about this issue on the NLRN web site and get educated if not already: https://nrln.org/
|
Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
IBM is a turnaround story and we are part of the turnaround.?
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Re: IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
So, this sounds like IBM is stopping use of Via Benefits with no more HSA Benefits? No more help with retiree medical?? I recall my father, decades ago when retired, was very angry when he received a letter that had them switch to an HMO. My parents were very specific about who their doctors were.?
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IBM $3,000 Heath Care subsidy terminated effective 1/1/2023
I received a letter from IBM today, announcing this change, like most of you will/have. More details will be forthcoming. Here's a quote from the letter I received:
====================================================================================================
"It’s your choice – consider your alternatives now!
1. Transition to the new Group Medicare Advantage plan options, which are designed exclusively for IBM retiree benefit participants eligible for Medicare. There are two options under the IBM retiree medical plan – the Enhanced Plan and the Essential Plan. Keep in mind that the IBM subsidy is only available when you enroll in one of the new UnitedHealthcare plan options.
OR
2. Remain enrolled in the coverage you have today. If you would like to remain enrolled in your current plans, including those through Via Benefits, you can do so. Please be aware that, if you choose to remain in your current plans, you will no longer be eligible for IBM’s subsidy while enrolled there."
====================================================================================================
Note that it says: IF YOU CHOOSE TO REMAIN IN YOUR CURRENT PLANS, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR IBM’S SUBSIDY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So IBM has negotiated a, one size fits all deal with UHC, for all of us that were receiving up to $3K a year, in medical reimbursements.
I called UHC to try and get a bit more detail. Julia said that they expected more information would be be available on their (UHC) website by the end of this month.
Personally, I would be much happier receiving a flat $1,500 a year check for medical expense coverage, rather than being herded into special IBM Medicare Advantage program that is subject to change each year.
:-(
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Re: IBM offloads $16 billion in pension liabilities
Does are medical change with this new arrangement? rchelak2003@...?
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Dave Naatz
JoeRoth