After I logged in, I could see the file.? I even downloaded it to my computer and watched it, no problem.? If there is a place I can put it for you, let me know.? I still have it here.? 28MB. ?I hope it’s ok with the owner…

?

?

J?J

?

?

?

?

---

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Bart
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [homebrewpcbs] Bubble Tank DIY Plans

?

More than poor programming, Dropbox can only be used on your account.? The basic (free) does not allow

a person to goto another link and look at the bubble tank I get error 404. I am logged in and the file is not there

unless I am doing something wrong...

?

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:39 AM Paul Galarneau via Groups.Io <pgsoft51=[email protected]> wrote:

Yeah, you have to logged in to see the file.? I got the same message then I logged in.? Message shouldbe changed to?: you have to be logged in to see this file.? Very crappy programming.?

?

J?J

?

---

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phil SMITH via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 3:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [homebrewpcbs] Bubble Tank DIY Plans

?

Hey there!

Seems the link doesnt work for me - error 404 - "That file isn’t here anymore".

?

Best regards,

Phil.

_._,_._,_

---

You can try to use my manual to build a tank:

Dave,

You have asked a lot of thoughtful questions about layout, pad and trace sizes, board margins, etc., and received a lot of good advice. I thought I would point you at some reference material on standards that various organizations use that is available on the Internet.

1. AN3962 from Freescale (now NXP) has a good summary of information about pads, holes, trace sizes, with a rule of thumb for current, spacings for different voltage conditions, and appears to be based upon IPC standards. Find it here:



2. Colonial DFM Guidelines has more information on board mechanics. It is useful if you are going to have your boards manufactured by a board house. Find it here:



3. EATON Corp, Cutler-Hammer Div Printed Circuit Design Guidelines. A very comprehensive design guide that includes information about about device packages, dimensions and board layout. Find it here:



The documents seem to follow IPC guidelines, and are easier to get than the actual IPC standards which are very expensive. There is a high degree of agreement between them, and with much of the information you have been given here. Many more documents are available under a Google search for PCB Layout Guidelines. For specialized types of boards, such as RF and high frequency work, there are documents specific to those areas.

Good hunting

(The other) Harvey


On 3/7/2019 9:04 AM, Harvey White wrote:

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 09:28:13 -0600, you wrote:

Harvey, thanks again for the detailed post. I also found a trace width
calculator online that helps size for amps. Another question seeing I
have never done this before. I have various tools like a shear, tin
snips, and scroll saw to cut my boards. But what is the best way?

I bought the *large* harbor freight shear, 300 some pounds, because I
have a bit of a metal shop.? I'd suggest a smaller one for sheer size
and portability.? Most people deal with pcb material that's 12 inches
wide or less.

And
what is the minimum boarder I need for best or design rules? I have 12
little circuits that fit on a 2x6 copper clad board but they looked
crowed so I changed it to 10. The gap between the long side center is
3/16". If I cut or sheer accurately is that enough meat left on the sides?

In a sense, you don't care how much distance is left between the board
and board edge, it's nominally no less than two trace spacings. The
limit is how close you can get to the trace when cutting.? For a
shear, I'd say that you'd want about 1/8 inch border minimum around
the board, which says 1/4 inch or so between boards.? Note that you
can always do a rough cut with almost anything and then trim with the
shear.? That's final sheared dimensions, shearing when using panelized
patterns, etc.

Scroll saws will dull almost immediately.

Tile saws with diamond blades may not, and who cares if the board is
wet?? Never tried it myself, though.? Be very cautious with the
fiberglass dust if cutting with a saw.

The main problem with the shear is setting it up properly (it needs
different settings for thicker PC board material), and shearing very
narrow boards along the length.? Board material will tend to want to
pop up and wedge between the blade and table.? This imposes some
practical limits.? (as well as needs hold down clamps of some sort for
those rare boards).

Copper clad, when sheared, may have a tendency to delaminate depending
on the shear settings, so we get a second border limit as well as a
need for an unused border around the whole board pattern (regardless
of what's on it).? I typically wanted about 3/8 to 1/2 an inch around
the board pattern that was unused.? That allowed space to tape the
transfer paper down (one edge only), allowed any lifting effects to be
on a part that didn't have traces, gave me space for holes to hang the
board in the etchant tank, and enough space that trimming the board
with the shear worked well.? Trimming the board to the arbitrary two
trace spacing was fine if the shear would do it.

You'll note that the material sheared off fares worse than the
material left behind, but that will vary with setups.

Harvey

Thanks

On 3/6/2019 3:49 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:33:13 -0600, you wrote:

Thanks for the info Harvey. I have a new question. What is the closest
pads should be to each other? And if you are making a bunch of small
boards and transferring them to copper for etching what is the minimal
space between designs? In other words, what should the remaining border
width be? Seems I may have placed my circuits too close to the center
and have to shrink the width a little.

There's two limits, design and process.

Process limits simply say that you can't physically make the board
like that.? Either too close to the edge, or holes too small, or
pads/traces too small.

Those limits vary with respect to the process, but typically 0.030 or
0.060 are decent limits (roughly 1/16 or 1/32) for pad to pad, and
spacing betwen tracks, but that's process....

Now, voltage wise, that determines the minimum track spacing as well.
I'm not sure of the limits here, you'd have to look that up. Ditto
with track current carrying capacity for width (varies also with
respect to the copper foil thickness).

You also want to allow for heat dissipation for things like resistors.
Typical power resistors are often at the end of longer leads and
spaced off the boards.? Seen scorched boards because of resistors. Now
on the other hand, those resistor long leads will fail any sort of
vibration test.? (military stuff used clamps for bulky parts like
that).

So for home analog stuff, not necessarily digital, you want a small
enough trace that you can put one between the pads of a DIP (more
requires finer stuff than can be happily done at home).

WIthout an autorouter (which is of limited use for home built boards),
I tend to use the airwires (unrouted traces) to determine which parts
need to be near which parts for shortest wire runs, then try to
manually route the shortest wires.? It's a learning process...

Once you go to surface mount parts, the design rules start to change,
but I'm not sure where you are on this design.

Harvey

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 09:28:13 -0600, you wrote:

Harvey, thanks again for the detailed post. I also found a trace width
calculator online that helps size for amps. Another question seeing I
have never done this before. I have various tools like a shear, tin
snips, and scroll saw to cut my boards. But what is the best way?

I bought the *large* harbor freight shear, 300 some pounds, because I
have a bit of a metal shop. I'd suggest a smaller one for sheer size
and portability. Most people deal with pcb material that's 12 inches
wide or less.

And
what is the minimum boarder I need for best or design rules? I have 12
little circuits that fit on a 2x6 copper clad board but they looked
crowed so I changed it to 10. The gap between the long side center is
3/16". If I cut or sheer accurately is that enough meat left on the sides?

In a sense, you don't care how much distance is left between the board
and board edge, it's nominally no less than two trace spacings. The
limit is how close you can get to the trace when cutting. For a
shear, I'd say that you'd want about 1/8 inch border minimum around
the board, which says 1/4 inch or so between boards. Note that you
can always do a rough cut with almost anything and then trim with the
shear. That's final sheared dimensions, shearing when using panelized
patterns, etc.

Scroll saws will dull almost immediately.

Tile saws with diamond blades may not, and who cares if the board is
wet? Never tried it myself, though. Be very cautious with the
fiberglass dust if cutting with a saw.

The main problem with the shear is setting it up properly (it needs
different settings for thicker PC board material), and shearing very
narrow boards along the length. Board material will tend to want to
pop up and wedge between the blade and table. This imposes some
practical limits. (as well as needs hold down clamps of some sort for
those rare boards).

Copper clad, when sheared, may have a tendency to delaminate depending
on the shear settings, so we get a second border limit as well as a
need for an unused border around the whole board pattern (regardless
of what's on it). I typically wanted about 3/8 to 1/2 an inch around
the board pattern that was unused. That allowed space to tape the
transfer paper down (one edge only), allowed any lifting effects to be
on a part that didn't have traces, gave me space for holes to hang the
board in the etchant tank, and enough space that trimming the board
with the shear worked well. Trimming the board to the arbitrary two
trace spacing was fine if the shear would do it.

You'll note that the material sheared off fares worse than the
material left behind, but that will vary with setups.

Harvey

Thanks

On 3/6/2019 3:49 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:33:13 -0600, you wrote:

Thanks for the info Harvey. I have a new question. What is the closest
pads should be to each other? And if you are making a bunch of small
boards and transferring them to copper for etching what is the minimal
space between designs? In other words, what should the remaining border
width be? Seems I may have placed my circuits too close to the center
and have to shrink the width a little.

There's two limits, design and process.

Process limits simply say that you can't physically make the board
like that. Either too close to the edge, or holes too small, or
pads/traces too small.

Those limits vary with respect to the process, but typically 0.030 or
0.060 are decent limits (roughly 1/16 or 1/32) for pad to pad, and
spacing betwen tracks, but that's process....

Now, voltage wise, that determines the minimum track spacing as well.
I'm not sure of the limits here, you'd have to look that up. Ditto
with track current carrying capacity for width (varies also with
respect to the copper foil thickness).

You also want to allow for heat dissipation for things like resistors.
Typical power resistors are often at the end of longer leads and
spaced off the boards. Seen scorched boards because of resistors. Now
on the other hand, those resistor long leads will fail any sort of
vibration test. (military stuff used clamps for bulky parts like
that).

So for home analog stuff, not necessarily digital, you want a small
enough trace that you can put one between the pads of a DIP (more
requires finer stuff than can be happily done at home).

WIthout an autorouter (which is of limited use for home built boards),
I tend to use the airwires (unrouted traces) to determine which parts
need to be near which parts for shortest wire runs, then try to
manually route the shortest wires. It's a learning process...

Once you go to surface mount parts, the design rules start to change,
but I'm not sure where you are on this design.

Harvey

On 07/03/19 03:14, Dave wrote:

On 3/6/2019 9:34 AM, russell shaw wrote:

On 07/03/19 02:13, Dave wrote:

Russel,

...

Russel,

?? Ok, good info. So if I do my etching under my 24x24x14 carport outside, I should be good and the carport should escape rusting too. I think I can rest easy on the rust thing now as I have enough info on how not to be careless. I have to also realize I am a noob and have to design stuff to etch. Or download other peoples stuff to etch I probably won't be etching all of the time to worry about it.

It will be ok outside.

Getting etchant on jeans will cause holes to appear after a wash, so don't be sloppy. Have clean water nearby if an eyewash is needed.

Don't suck the stuff through a tube or the calcium on your teeth will dissolve.

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:33:13 -0600, you wrote:

Thanks for the info Harvey. I have a new question. What is the closest
pads should be to each other? And if you are making a bunch of small
boards and transferring them to copper for etching what is the minimal
space between designs? In other words, what should the remaining border
width be? Seems I may have placed my circuits too close to the center
and have to shrink the width a little.

There's two limits, design and process.

Process limits simply say that you can't physically make the board
like that. Either too close to the edge, or holes too small, or
pads/traces too small.

Those limits vary with respect to the process, but typically 0.030 or
0.060 are decent limits (roughly 1/16 or 1/32) for pad to pad, and
spacing betwen tracks, but that's process....

Now, voltage wise, that determines the minimum track spacing as well.
I'm not sure of the limits here, you'd have to look that up. Ditto
with track current carrying capacity for width (varies also with
respect to the copper foil thickness).

You also want to allow for heat dissipation for things like resistors.
Typical power resistors are often at the end of longer leads and
spaced off the boards. Seen scorched boards because of resistors. Now
on the other hand, those resistor long leads will fail any sort of
vibration test. (military stuff used clamps for bulky parts like
that).

So for home analog stuff, not necessarily digital, you want a small
enough trace that you can put one between the pads of a DIP (more
requires finer stuff than can be happily done at home).

WIthout an autorouter (which is of limited use for home built boards),
I tend to use the airwires (unrouted traces) to determine which parts
need to be near which parts for shortest wire runs, then try to
manually route the shortest wires. It's a learning process...

Once you go to surface mount parts, the design rules start to change,
but I'm not sure where you are on this design.

Harvey

If you decide DIY is a bit much, a search for 'rectangular vase' will turn
up plenty of glass containers in practically any size you want, for under
$20 or so.

This sort of thing:

_lpo_vtph_201_lp_img_2. I found a similar couple in my travels a long time
ago, that's what I use for etching.

You can also check scientific places for similar things, but beware of
sticker shock.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 1:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [homebrewpcbs] Bubble Tank DIY Plans

So I want to build a bubble tank. Anybody have any best methods or DIY
plans? I am pretty sure my boards will remain small for the foreseeable
future so I don't think I need an aquarium. :) I assume plastic is the
best after glass and likely no metal parts touching the solution. An
aquarium pump should work, proven designs are what I am after.

Thanks

Here is a bubble etchant plan on page 45 it starts. View and sound off if it will work as a newbi I need advise before I build. Thank you Kevin

_._,_._,_

---

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:13:54 -0600, you wrote:

Yes, when I was looking at KiCad I found this:



But it looks like a research project to install. :) But someone here
running Windows needs to try it and tell us how to get'r done. :)

Couldn't get it to run, java exception (without explanation).

and that was with (trying to) following the directions....

Harvey

On Wed, 06 Mar 2019 15:38:46 -0600, you wrote:

Auto place and route is KiCAD's Achilles heel, but there is an external program, isnt there?Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Tablet

As I understand it. 4.x had a barely sufficient one included.
5.01/5.02 do not have one and don't have the links. There's supposed
to be a moderately good one that's a .jar program, but I can't get it
to run right now. 5.1 (not yet out?) is rumored to have either a
better autorouter or at least the links.

For the Kicad autorouter, you export the board file into the
autorouter, run it, and import the board file back....

I'm at the wait and see stage.

Harvey

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 09:38:35 -0600, you wrote:

Yes, DipTrace is restricted. DesignSparkPCB is installed on your pc but
opens up a start page every time you open the program. You can just
close it after you see the latest news form them and go on with your
work. All files are save to your pc and not the cloud.

Eagle tried something like that on a version I didn't use. You had to
be authenticated each time you used the program.

I'm sometimes where I have no internet (<gasp>!) so I avoid that kind
of situation.

Kicad has no limitations that way. Eagle has a student version (the
4x6 inch no profit) and a hobby version (3x4 no profit) as well as
subscription models for the profit versions (all sizes).

Since I personally dislike (small word) the subscription model, I
never upgraded past 7.x.

My license is with the old owners (not autodesk), and is not subject
to subscription.

Now if KiCad had a good autorouter integrated into it... (and I have
tried), well.....

Harvey

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 1:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [homebrewpcbs] Bubble Tank DIY Plans

So I want to build a bubble tank. Anybody have any best methods or DIY
plans? I am pretty sure my boards will remain small for the foreseeable
future so I don't think I need an aquarium. :) I assume plastic is the
best after glass and likely no metal parts touching the solution. An
aquarium pump should work, proven designs are what I am after.

Thanks

Yes, when I was looking at KiCad I found this:

But it looks like a research project to install. :) But someone here running Windows needs to try it and tell us how to get'r done. :)

Thanks

Auto place and route is KiCAD's Achilles heel, but there is an external program, isnt there?

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Tablet

-------- Original message --------

From: Harvey White <madyn@...>

Date: 3/6/19 3:31 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: [homebrewpcbs] Proxxon TBM115 on it's way

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 09:38:35 -0600, you wrote:

>Yes, DipTrace is restricted. DesignSparkPCB is installed on your pc but
>opens up a start page every time you open the program. You can just
>close it after you see the latest news form them and go on with your
>work. All files are save to your pc and not the cloud.


Eagle tried something like that on a version I didn't use.? You had to
be authenticated each time you used the program.?

I'm sometimes where I have no internet (<gasp>!) so I avoid that kind
of situation.

Kicad has no limitations that way.? Eagle has a student version (the
4x6 inch no profit) and a hobby version (3x4 no profit) as well as
subscription models for the profit versions (all sizes).

Since I personally dislike (small word) the subscription model, I
never upgraded past 7.x.

My license is with the old owners (not autodesk), and is not subject
to subscription.?

Now if KiCad had a good autorouter integrated into it... (and I have
tried), well.....

Harvey


>
>On 3/5/2019 7:09 PM, Harvey White wrote:
>> Oh, and last I looked, Diptrace does have a free version, with limits,
>> though.? KiCad does not.
>>
>> Don't know much abut design spark, did look through the website.? It
>> may be web based, it may not be.? Web based doesn't work for me at
>> all, not where I can automatically get a WIFI connection.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harvey
>
>
>