开云体育

I don't think you need to get too worried about this issue. Sure, leaving HCl fumes around steel or machinery is a bad thing but if you take a few sensible precautions you shouldn't have a problem. HCl is sold in pool shops in secure plastic bottles and you can repurpose them for keeping CuCl2 etching solution without too much trouble. I keep my solution in a thick plastic laundry detergent bottle with a childproof cap secure on a high shelf and clearly labeled. It's been like that for years with no problems. You're more likely to liberate fumes while you're actually doing the etching if you use a bubbler.

Actually I've found ferric chloride to be much harder on plastic and glass bottles than copper chloride. CuCls is just marvelous, I changed to it about 8 years ago and I'll never go back. I've been making boards for about 50 years and wish I'd known about it all those years ago.

Morris

This link hopefully will show my tank which has lasted five years so far. It is a jug intended to fit in the door of a refrigerator. It's fairly slim so keeping the amount of etching liquid needed to a minimum. Fish tank heater and bubble device.

Usual thing with dropbox. You are invited to create an account and you can say "no". Then you will be asked to install Flash Player, well that's up to you. I wouldn't.
Or you can just click "download" (top right hand side) to see the video.



72/3
Tony G4WIF

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 20:09:38 -0500, you wrote:

I have worked in steel mills and manufacturing and soda companies

and had a deep purchasing ethic drilled into me at a very young age.

So when I went to OSHPARK and on their ABOUT US web page saw

MADE IN THE USA

I thought I would tolerate the high price because I wouldn't be waiting
for the slow boat from China.

It generally took me about 2-4 days to make a PC board.

The first day was spent in cleaning the boards and printing the toner
transfer paper, and also in transferring the toner to the paper.

The second day was spent in etching and tin plating the boards.

The third was in waiting for the epoxy to set (24 hours regardless of
what it says for full strength, 5 min, 15 min, 1 hour no difference).

The next day was spent in drilling at least one board.

Possibly the same day was spent in stitching the top and bottom
together....

Putting parts on the board may have taken another day, depending on
the board.

Then I had to make it work.

The competition is fierce so I am sure I will look for fab house PCB deals

I found SeeedStudio to be reasonable, 4.90 for 10 boards up to 100mm
by 100 mm. DHL shipping is roughly 24 dollars or so for an order of
five patterns, depending on weight. Past 5 patterns, you pay $10.00
per 10 boards.

but

OSHPARK sent me packing by have MADE IN USA when it not.

I'm still puzzled. What part of the board (was it the board itself?)
was not made in the USA?

And for that matter, how could you tell?


Harvey

On 03/05/2019 04:56 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 14:24:14 -0500, you wrote:

I was stunned by the OSHPARK price and service.

says MADE IN THE USA

and when I pulled the trigger and paid $60 for 3 small circuit boards

At $5.00/sq inch you had a 12 sq inch board, so roughly 4 x 3 inches.

they said my order was ready for a fabrication house and I will be
informed when they have added my

3 PCBs to a huge sheet of orders... and

a day later they said? GOOD NEWS...YOUR GERBERS ARE ON THEIR WAY TO A
FAB HOUSE... WE WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR

PCBs RETURN FROM THE FAB HOUSE

Yep, exactly how it works. The Chinese board houses do the same kind
of combine and send off. Difference is in the volume.

and then

two weeks later? I got my PCBs that I thought OSHPARK was going to make
in the USA.

what makes you think they weren't done in the USA? Had you checked
some of the USA fab houses for price? Do that, then start squeezing
your wallet to perform CPR.

and then

I spent $13 buying ten PCBs from ALLPCB.com and they were done and
delivered in FIVE days.

Delivery can be a bit more expensive, though. I find DHL to be
quickest, and not all that bad a price relative to the other services,
although I do not use ALLPCB.

Do note that the Chinese board fab houses have a special, say 4.90 for
10 PCBS, dual layer, HASL, etc... max size is 100 cm by 100 cm.

Go over that by one cm on the quote, and you'll get an idea of the
true price. Then pick ENIG finish and hold on to your wallet. Oshpark
is good for smaller boards, not larger ones.

Some projects are that small, some aren't.

Harvey

Needless to say I will never use OSHPARK again.

On 03/05/2019 01:36 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 08:31:05 -0600, you wrote:

Harvey,

? All good info.

Thanks.

If I ever come up with a money making idea with a pcb
board involved, I may have to have my boards made, But I don't ever see
that happening.

Make sure that you can legally do this with the PC board package you
have. EAGLE and other "free" versions have a "no profit" restriction.

Who knows, maybe in a time saving way if the price was
right, but I need to be realistic as I have many other interests/hobbies
that need some of my time. :)

Not that I'd know anything about that...........

That said, when I decide to do something I
go all out to do it the best I can so all this info is great. I am going
to use Muriatic and HP for my etchant for now.

I started out many years ago with photoetching, KPR and Kodalith
negatives. Photo stuff was fine, the KPR was nasty stuff.

I tried some presensitized boards, with varying results, negative
density is absolutely critical.

Went to toner transfer, which has been working for a long time. Needed
double sided boards and ended up making each side and epoxying them
together.

However, the designs got so complex that I needed plated through
holes. That ran the limit of what I could do at home.

Tried Oshpark (and they're very nice, good quality, price depends on
the size of the boards), then I tried a Chinese firm, somewhat
different boards, but not too much. Oshpark was ENIG (gold plated),
Chinese is HASL (Hot Air Solder Leveled). Either works.

So I outgrew, if you would, what I could do at home.

Good luck on your projects.

Harvey

Thanks


On 3/4/2019 7:13 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 16:43:20 -0600, you wrote:

Ok on the top/bottom posting. Nobody is complaining yet. :)

My default trace setting was 15 and I had bumped it up to 20 so that
sounds good to me. I have seen those "islands" you speak of and figured
it was either a ground plane or a way to save etching time. I may
experiment with that.

The island approach really didn't require etching, it needed an xacto
knife and a ruler.

Etching time will be the same, as long as you have enough etchant.
Think about that one, you have to go through the same amount of copper
regardless. When you do the etching, you'll want a bubbler of some
sort. The HCL/H2O2 etchant works very well until you run out of H2O2,
perhaps 30 days. The etchant then changes (slowly) into CuCl etchant,
which etchs when oxygen is added, literally, your first time look at
the copper and you'll see it turning reddish and going away, that's
the copper oxidizing in solution.

Once the etchant changes color, then you're likely in CuCl etching.
I'm not the expert, but an internet search may give you accurate (and
better than mine) details.

For the mechanical approach, you could also use CNC and some sort of
router bit (usually PCB and carbide). It works very well on discrete
transistors/resistors/capacitors but has a limited utility when
dealing with ICs... Has more to do with pin spacing than not.

Main thing is that you make boards that work for you. As you decide
to go from through hole to surface mount, and then to TFQP flatpacks,
and then plated through holes, your techniques will change until you
likely need to use a board house to make the designs. Mine did.

However, there's a lot you can learn in the process.

Harvey

I am using DesignSparkPCB for now.

I ordered the 16oz bottle of MG Liquid Tin. That should last me forever.
Good reasoning on why a lot of people don't use Tinit or Liquid Tin
because they finish soldering all the components right away. Now I can
plan ahead and etch, tin, and save for later finishing if need be.

Thanks


On 3/4/2019 1:45 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 11:31:38 -0600, you wrote:

Quick question. Is top posting preferred here. That is the way I like to
do it but on some other forums people complain and like it the other way.

I prefer to interleave where reasonable. For this post, I will. For
the previous post, it was so long that without seriously trimming it,
my reply would be at the very bottom.

You get your choice, I think.

Now back to the subject at hand...All good info but, if I am just
starting out and am not worried about trace widths, my job should be
easier if I use wide traces at first, right? I remember taking apart old
electronics and the traces and solder were absolutely thick. And for
starters my projects will be very simple, like a breakout board.

Generally about 16 mils is what I normally use. However, as long as
the traces work for you, and you can build the board, it doesn't
matter.

There's a method that makes the pads as large as possible, so you're
wiring parts between very large pads, islands, even. The 1/16 inch or
so is the space around the pads. Saves etchant and can be done with
an xacto knife in some cases.

I think I seen where Rob found that Krylon enamel paint was a great
resist that could be thinned with lacquer thinner and used in a pen.

Depends on how you do the board. I generally did a program (like
EAGLE), toner transfer, and then I tinned the board.

Does Tinit help any or is that just a corrosion preventative and does
anyone use it anymore?

It's a bit of a corrosion inhibitor, and is effectively solder, so it
makes soldering easier.

I've done boards both ways, and if you build the board all at once,
then you likely can get away without the tin/lead. What happens if
you don't is that you get tarnish from normal oxidation and soldering
becomes difficult.

If you could mask the pads somehow, you could do a solder mask with
paing, and that would allow you to have a neater board. That, with a
silk screen layer would be a good look.

What they do in the factory is use a solder mask chemical that's UV
cureable... The stencil has holes where the pads are, you coat the
entire board with the mask, let it dry, and then the UV through the
stencil destroys the polymer so that the exposed areas wash off,
uncovering the pads.

Hence the tinning that tends to make the board look good and reduces
corrosion.

Harvey

I would suggest the original HCl bottle (or something like it) inside a 5-gallon bucket with a lid, and put a container with some large surface area inside the bucket as well. Any HCl vapour will get neutralised by the baking soda. Check occasionally that you don't need to top it up. (The HCl even gets through the walls of the original bottle, so you will need something to neutralise it nearby.)

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <>

On 06/03/19 06:05, Dave wrote:

After seeing some guys post on leaving his etchant tank out in his shop, and the next day his drill press post was solid rust... I was thinking that I really don't want to mess up my steel building or anything in it. That said, if I use the muriatic/peroxide etchant outside, and then pour it into a sealed container, I should be ok? Or if not if I really want to be sure, what is the best of the other etchants that works the fastest with no worry of rusting my stuff? Or am I being too paranoid?

I just put a slab of polystyrene over the container. If it's a bit warped, put a bit of wood on top of that.

I've had the same setup and *same* etchant in my lab over 5+ years, topped up with a bit of HCl every time i use it.

It's the HCl vapours that cause the corrosion.

开云体育

Diptrace is 500 holes 2 sides free for Non-profit use only.

Which is a pretty good start for me to learn it.

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 13:35:22 -0600, you wrote:

ARM processor (ST micro Nucleo 144 add on board, FPGA, CPLD, magnetic
field sensors, light sensors, accelerometer, lots of LEDS, ESP8266
WIFI link, NRF24L01 (to be added) RF link, serial links, I2C links,
320 x 240 touchscreen display, audio subsystem......

Not a beginner's project at this point.

Oh, Star Trek Tricorder, reworked (still thinking about the 3D printed
case), ......

Likely a bit more complicated than most....

<grin>

On the other hand, I'm beginning to hate variable length, asynchronous
communications especially when mixed with an operating system.....

And that kinda explains the double sided boards and plated through
holes need.....

Oh, and last I looked, Diptrace does have a free version, with limits,
though. KiCad does not.

Don't know much abut design spark, did look through the website. It
may be web based, it may not be. Web based doesn't work for me at
all, not where I can automatically get a WIFI connection.



Harvey

On 3/5/2019 12:36 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 08:31:05 -0600, you wrote:

Harvey,

? All good info.

Thanks.

If I ever come up with a money making idea with a pcb
board involved, I may have to have my boards made, But I don't ever see
that happening.

Make sure that you can legally do this with the PC board package you
have. EAGLE and other "free" versions have a "no profit" restriction.

DesignSpark has no restriction. I don't think Diptrace does either but I
would have to verify that.

Who knows, maybe in a time saving way if the price was
right, but I need to be realistic as I have many other interests/hobbies
that need some of my time. :)

Not that I'd know anything about that...........

:):):) I was told once that my hobby was "collecting hobbies".

That said, when I decide to do something I
go all out to do it the best I can so all this info is great. I am going
to use Muriatic and HP for my etchant for now.

I started out many years ago with photoetching, KPR and Kodalith
negatives. Photo stuff was fine, the KPR was nasty stuff.

I tried some presensitized boards, with varying results, negative
density is absolutely critical.

Went to toner transfer, which has been working for a long time. Needed
double sided boards and ended up making each side and epoxying them
together.

However, the designs got so complex that I needed plated through
holes. That ran the limit of what I could do at home.

Tried Oshpark (and they're very nice, good quality, price depends on
the size of the boards), then I tried a Chinese firm, somewhat
different boards, but not too much. Oshpark was ENIG (gold plated),
Chinese is HASL (Hot Air Solder Leveled). Either works.

So I outgrew, if you would, what I could do at home.

Good luck on your projects.

Harvey

You likely did much more than I even plan to accomplish. Small and
simple for now.

I have worked in steel mills and manufacturing and soda companies

and had a deep purchasing ethic drilled into me at a very young age.

So when I went to OSHPARK and on their ABOUT US web page saw

MADE IN THE USA

I thought I would tolerate the high price because I wouldn't be waiting for the slow boat from China.

The competition is fierce so I am sure I will look for fab house PCB deals

but

OSHPARK sent me packing by have MADE IN USA when it not.

A wood shed assembled with wood pegs, otherwise,
you might lose the shed after a while.
Just kidding. The muriatic acid is sold in plastic
canisters with a good seal.
That’s what I use for my etchant as I have a few of
those to maintain the PH of my pool.
Home Depot sells one galon for less than $10.
For the H2O2, I go to the Beauty Salon Supplies shop
to get the 30% instead of the 3%.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL

Yeah on the cap seals. I think I have a pretty good idea as I have a large yard (2.6 acres). I will put the muriatc acid and/or the etchant mix in a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid. I will did a hole and put the 5 gallon bucket half way deep in the hole to keep it stable, and cover the works with an upside down old plastic garbage can. I don't know if I should vent the 5 gallon bucket or not??

Yikes! So my 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it won't be the answer. Drat!? What kind of plastic bin do you use outside? I have a dog so I need to be safe there too. Buy like you say, the chems are cheap enough and the peroxide is safe so I could make as needed and plan ahead and etch a bunch of boards one day and tin them and drill when needed. The chemical that causes all the trouble is the muriatc acid.

Thanks

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 15:32:36 -0600, you wrote:

On 3/5/2019 2:45 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 13:05:18 -0600, you wrote:

After seeing some guys post on leaving his etchant tank out in his shop,
and the next day his drill press post was solid rust... I was thinking
that I really don't want to mess up my steel building or anything in it.
That said, if I use the muriatic/peroxide etchant outside, and then pour
it into a sealed container, I should be ok?

Define "sealed".....

In a one gallon glass or plastic bottle like the one the muriatic acid
is sold in.

Main problem with some enclosures is that the caps or seals are
attacked by the HCL. Rubbermaid cereal containers (inexpensive, but
while the bodies withstand the HCL, the seals don't).

Or if not if I really want
to be sure, what is the best of the other etchants that works the
fastest with no worry of rusting my stuff? Or am I being too paranoid?

Likely ammonium persulfate or ammonium perchloride. That still will
release extra oxygen here and there, but not acid fumes, afaik....

You could put it in a jug, say one used for distilled water or the
same one used for the acid (if you know someone who uses pool acid,
see if they have an old empty bottle.

I was tempted to (and almost did) get one of those brown resin
containers to put the acid in (suitably bottled).

No, you are not being too paranoid. I'd store it outside. I suspect
that the main problem is the fumes from the acid, but then again, no
idea of how well the container was sealed.

what would work should be a bottle designed for acid storage, say from
a chemical supply store.

Isn't a Hydrogen peroxide bottle a brown resin bottle like this one?

Yep, H2O2 tends to decompose in the presence of light/ultraviolet
light.

I'd wonder about the caps, though, for the HCL.

Harvey

Harvey

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 14:24:14 -0500, you wrote:

I was stunned by the OSHPARK price and service.

says MADE IN THE USA

and when I pulled the trigger and paid $60 for 3 small circuit boards

At $5.00/sq inch you had a 12 sq inch board, so roughly 4 x 3 inches.

they said my order was ready for a fabrication house and I will be
informed when they have added my

3 PCBs to a huge sheet of orders... and

a day later they said? GOOD NEWS...YOUR GERBERS ARE ON THEIR WAY TO A
FAB HOUSE... WE WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR

PCBs RETURN FROM THE FAB HOUSE

Yep, exactly how it works. The Chinese board houses do the same kind
of combine and send off. Difference is in the volume.

and then

two weeks later? I got my PCBs that I thought OSHPARK was going to make
in the USA.

what makes you think they weren't done in the USA? Had you checked
some of the USA fab houses for price? Do that, then start squeezing
your wallet to perform CPR.

and then

I spent $13 buying ten PCBs from ALLPCB.com and they were done and
delivered in FIVE days.

Delivery can be a bit more expensive, though. I find DHL to be
quickest, and not all that bad a price relative to the other services,
although I do not use ALLPCB.

Do note that the Chinese board fab houses have a special, say 4.90 for
10 PCBS, dual layer, HASL, etc... max size is 100 cm by 100 cm.

Go over that by one cm on the quote, and you'll get an idea of the
true price. Then pick ENIG finish and hold on to your wallet. Oshpark
is good for smaller boards, not larger ones.

Some projects are that small, some aren't.

Harvey

Needless to say I will never use OSHPARK again.

On 03/05/2019 01:36 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 08:31:05 -0600, you wrote:

Harvey,

? All good info.

Thanks.

If I ever come up with a money making idea with a pcb
board involved, I may have to have my boards made, But I don't ever see
that happening.

Make sure that you can legally do this with the PC board package you
have. EAGLE and other "free" versions have a "no profit" restriction.

Who knows, maybe in a time saving way if the price was
right, but I need to be realistic as I have many other interests/hobbies
that need some of my time. :)

Not that I'd know anything about that...........

That said, when I decide to do something I
go all out to do it the best I can so all this info is great. I am going
to use Muriatic and HP for my etchant for now.

I started out many years ago with photoetching, KPR and Kodalith
negatives. Photo stuff was fine, the KPR was nasty stuff.

I tried some presensitized boards, with varying results, negative
density is absolutely critical.

Went to toner transfer, which has been working for a long time. Needed
double sided boards and ended up making each side and epoxying them
together.

However, the designs got so complex that I needed plated through
holes. That ran the limit of what I could do at home.

Tried Oshpark (and they're very nice, good quality, price depends on
the size of the boards), then I tried a Chinese firm, somewhat
different boards, but not too much. Oshpark was ENIG (gold plated),
Chinese is HASL (Hot Air Solder Leveled). Either works.

So I outgrew, if you would, what I could do at home.

Good luck on your projects.

Harvey

Thanks


On 3/4/2019 7:13 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 16:43:20 -0600, you wrote:

Ok on the top/bottom posting. Nobody is complaining yet. :)

My default trace setting was 15 and I had bumped it up to 20 so that
sounds good to me. I have seen those "islands" you speak of and figured
it was either a ground plane or a way to save etching time. I may
experiment with that.

The island approach really didn't require etching, it needed an xacto
knife and a ruler.

Etching time will be the same, as long as you have enough etchant.
Think about that one, you have to go through the same amount of copper
regardless. When you do the etching, you'll want a bubbler of some
sort. The HCL/H2O2 etchant works very well until you run out of H2O2,
perhaps 30 days. The etchant then changes (slowly) into CuCl etchant,
which etchs when oxygen is added, literally, your first time look at
the copper and you'll see it turning reddish and going away, that's
the copper oxidizing in solution.

Once the etchant changes color, then you're likely in CuCl etching.
I'm not the expert, but an internet search may give you accurate (and
better than mine) details.

For the mechanical approach, you could also use CNC and some sort of
router bit (usually PCB and carbide). It works very well on discrete
transistors/resistors/capacitors but has a limited utility when
dealing with ICs... Has more to do with pin spacing than not.

Main thing is that you make boards that work for you. As you decide
to go from through hole to surface mount, and then to TFQP flatpacks,
and then plated through holes, your techniques will change until you
likely need to use a board house to make the designs. Mine did.

However, there's a lot you can learn in the process.

Harvey

I am using DesignSparkPCB for now.

I ordered the 16oz bottle of MG Liquid Tin. That should last me forever.
Good reasoning on why a lot of people don't use Tinit or Liquid Tin
because they finish soldering all the components right away. Now I can
plan ahead and etch, tin, and save for later finishing if need be.

Thanks


On 3/4/2019 1:45 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 11:31:38 -0600, you wrote:

Quick question. Is top posting preferred here. That is the way I like to
do it but on some other forums people complain and like it the other way.

I prefer to interleave where reasonable. For this post, I will. For
the previous post, it was so long that without seriously trimming it,
my reply would be at the very bottom.

You get your choice, I think.

Now back to the subject at hand...All good info but, if I am just
starting out and am not worried about trace widths, my job should be
easier if I use wide traces at first, right? I remember taking apart old
electronics and the traces and solder were absolutely thick. And for
starters my projects will be very simple, like a breakout board.

Generally about 16 mils is what I normally use. However, as long as
the traces work for you, and you can build the board, it doesn't
matter.

There's a method that makes the pads as large as possible, so you're
wiring parts between very large pads, islands, even. The 1/16 inch or
so is the space around the pads. Saves etchant and can be done with
an xacto knife in some cases.

I think I seen where Rob found that Krylon enamel paint was a great
resist that could be thinned with lacquer thinner and used in a pen.

Depends on how you do the board. I generally did a program (like
EAGLE), toner transfer, and then I tinned the board.

Does Tinit help any or is that just a corrosion preventative and does
anyone use it anymore?

It's a bit of a corrosion inhibitor, and is effectively solder, so it
makes soldering easier.

I've done boards both ways, and if you build the board all at once,
then you likely can get away without the tin/lead. What happens if
you don't is that you get tarnish from normal oxidation and soldering
becomes difficult.

If you could mask the pads somehow, you could do a solder mask with
paing, and that would allow you to have a neater board. That, with a
silk screen layer would be a good look.

What they do in the factory is use a solder mask chemical that's UV
cureable... The stencil has holes where the pads are, you coat the
entire board with the mask, let it dry, and then the UV through the
stencil destroys the polymer so that the exposed areas wash off,
uncovering the pads.

Hence the tinning that tends to make the board look good and reduces
corrosion.

Harvey

On 3/5/2019 1:56 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

Received from Dave at 3/5/2019 05:21 PM UTC:

On 3/5/2019 10:28 AM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 08:26:04 -0600, you wrote:

Thanks. I had found that one earlier today. It has been replace by a more expensive model. After a lot of searching online, it looks as though I just need to look for a suitable container, get a pump, and a heater. The proper shaped glass vase or something. Glass is better.? The etchant tends to eat the seal on rubbermaid containers, but will work.? You could use an air bubbler stone, but that will be attacked by the acid.? At one time, I used an aquarium heater to heat the etchant, from what I remember, I stopped that and just etched on warm days.

Ammonium persulfate (or perchlorate) does not corrode things the way that HCL based etchants do.

Ammonium persulfate solution needs to be heated to etch efficiently and heat causes the solution to decompose. It isn't as efficient at etching copper as other more easily obtained chemicals unless the solution is enhanced via the addition of a trace of mercuric sulfate. That's a really big NO NO for anyone without the ability to manage the waste100% legally. Whether or not heated, the solution can't be rejuvenated and must be disposed of when spent... along with any copper it contains. No problem for those who don't care about proper (legal) disposal... a pain in the butt for those who do. I'd forget ammonium persulfate.

Ammonium perchlorate sounds similar to ammonium persulfate, but it's a completely different thing. It's a super powerful oxidizer with primary uses being in fireworks and as an ingredient in some solid rocket propellants. I can't find any credible references to using ammonium perchlorate for etching PCBs. The chemistry just isn't right.

Use polypropylene or glass and corrosion becomes a non-issue. Note that the material in the soft seal built into the lids of some polypropylene containers isn't polypropylene and could be attacked. That's why I store my solution in a large wide mouth glass jar with a plastic lid left a bit loose to avoid pressure build up.

I follow the law and don't want to contaminate the environment so I will play it safe. I may just be smart and etch outdoors, reclaim my etchant, and figure out what container can actually keep it from seeping out. Or build a small wooden shed just for chemicals (in plastic bottles).

I was just looking at those 8x8 inch square glass blocks as an easy container. The ones that have the rectangular hole already cut in them. May make a good starter bubble tank. So now I already have my first problem. Finding a plastic suitable for my HCL based etchant. :) Or change etchants already... I want to stick with the muriatic and peroxide for now.

When it comes to plastic containers, pretty much any polypropylene container from Walmart will do for etching. No lid needed when etching. The recycling symbol for polypropylene is a recycling triangle with "5" or "05" inside and "PP" below, so it's easy to identify. I etch in a plastic pan and store the solution in a glass container with a plastic lid between uses. I use a large 1-gallon or so wide mouth jar that's about half full... and the bubbler tube comes out thru a small hole in the lid... so when bubbling to rejuvenate my solution any minor splashes from the bubbler stay in the jar. If you just use HCl and peroxide and don't let copper build up appreciably in it, there's nothing to rejuvenate so you can forget the rejuvenation part. (But leave the lid a bit loose because H2O2 decomposes to produce oxygen gas and that can cause pressure to build up.) I actually added a fair bit of copper wire to my initial HCl/H2O2 solution because I wanted to let the cupric chloride that forms plus a bit of HCl do the etching... and I rejuvenate the solution with bubbled air rather than adding H2O2. Using this approach the only thing you add is a bit of water to maintain the volume of the solution and a bit of HCl when the solution won't rejuvenate completely to a nice emerald green. That boils down to adding HCl in the amount needed to make up what gets used when etching... and that's not much unless you etch a heck of a lot of boards. It's adequate to just etch until the solution either won't rejuvenate to a bright emeralds green or if you notice that the etching rate is slowing down. I've never noticed the latter.

Also, a fritted glass bubbler is NOT affected by the etchant. Stone bubblers (as warned above) maybe, depending on the material, but NOT fritted glass. Fritted glass bubblers are a glass tube with a porous glass bubbler on the end. The stone type will almost always have a plastic tube with a bubbler stone glued/epoxied onto it. The smallest (cheap) vibrating aquarium pump will provide enough air for etching and rejuvenating. You don't need a sheet of bubbles flowing vigorously all over the board, you just need the solution moving around enough to continuously remove the brownish reaction products from the surface of the board. The more you agitate the solution the more undercutting you'll get so a large airflow isn't as desirable as one might think.

To it in perspective, you have to etch a heck of a lot of boards to put the slightest strain on a couple of liters of etchant consisting of cupric chloride solution plus HCl.

Jim H

I see people using plastic all the time but thought the square glass block would be interesting. I pretty much understand the rejuvenation part and all that but my main worry is storage and no rusting my stuff in my shop. The info on the fritted glass bubbler is a good tip. I wonder about the plastic tube though that connects it. Will that degrade and if so, how fast? The Radio Electronics article on a bubble tank is something I would like to build and it is only 2 inches wide so I am curious how you would change the hoses out based on the design. I will ask the other Jim about that. And how do you store your etchant safely to avoid rusting any nearby metal/steel? Thanks for all the good info.

Dave,
I did just that.
Plastic container liquid tight.
Inside a 6/7 gallon pool bucket.
Still rusted.


I now keep the chems outside in a plastic bin. no more inside shop where metal resides.
On another note. the chems are so inexpensive. and easy to make on the fly.
I keep thinking Ill discard and make as needed. even if the chems were 10x as much?
the costs pale in comparison to my machines rusting. I easily pay more for 1 cutting bit
than the chems are worth.

If you never see rust? you are lucky.
Sam

Yes, on my 3D printer there is a "disable steppers" switch in the control panel to avoid damage when leveling the bed and manually moving it. I think I will leave my 9x29 mill manual only.

开云体育

Good info Sam. I have a large steel building workshop and would hate to see the panels rusting because of a stupid mistake. I guess if I stored my etchant in a plastic bottle like the muriatic acid bottle, and then put it inside of a 5 gallon bucket with a lid on it I may be ok? Or just use a different etchant. I have a bunch of expensive machines that I would like to keep rust free. Maybe I need to build a small wooden shed just for this kind of thing. Or one of those plastic sheds. :)

Thanks

On 3/5/2019 2:45 PM, Harvey White wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 13:05:18 -0600, you wrote:

After seeing some guys post on leaving his etchant tank out in his shop,
and the next day his drill press post was solid rust... I was thinking
that I really don't want to mess up my steel building or anything in it.
That said, if I use the muriatic/peroxide etchant outside, and then pour
it into a sealed container, I should be ok?

Define "sealed".....

In a one gallon glass or plastic bottle like the one the muriatic acid is sold in.

Or if not if I really want
to be sure, what is the best of the other etchants that works the
fastest with no worry of rusting my stuff? Or am I being too paranoid?

Likely ammonium persulfate or ammonium perchloride. That still will
release extra oxygen here and there, but not acid fumes, afaik....

You could put it in a jug, say one used for distilled water or the
same one used for the acid (if you know someone who uses pool acid,
see if they have an old empty bottle.

I was tempted to (and almost did) get one of those brown resin
containers to put the acid in (suitably bottled).

No, you are not being too paranoid. I'd store it outside. I suspect
that the main problem is the fumes from the acid, but then again, no
idea of how well the container was sealed.

what would work should be a bottle designed for acid storage, say from
a chemical supply store.

Isn't a Hydrogen peroxide bottle a brown resin bottle like this one?

Harvey