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I don't know, you should join and ask. ;')



I've used whatever Radio Shack sells and found at best
it is adequate, at worst a waste of money and time.
I've also used some dry stuff I think was Ammonium
Persulfate that I was satisfied with.

A colleague told me he's used a weak Nitric Acid mix
to etch boards -very- quickly but you have to be well
rested, have a lot of ventilation and really be paying
attention. And your etch resist coating had better be
complete.

Steve Greenfield

--- Tesla list <tesla@...> wrote:

Original poster: "Malcolm Watts by way of Terry
Fritz <twftesla@...>" <m.j.watts@...>

Hi Steve,
What etching fluids are used by your
group members?

Regards,
Malcolm

On 6 Dec 2001, at 8:03, Tesla list wrote:

Original poster: "Steve Greenfield by way of Terry

Fritz
<twftesla@...>" <alienrelics@...>

I've started a Yahoo Group on making, etching,
soldering printed circuit boards yourself.

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Original poster: "Malcolm Watts by way of Terry Fritz
<twftesla@...>" <m.j.watts@...>

HI Steve,
The reason I asked was so that I wouldn't
be duplicating
otherwise available information. From the two replies
I've received,
it seems that the mixture I use is not widely known,
so here it is.

The basic mix: 1 part commercial grade hydrogen
peroxide (about 30% I
think), 1 part fuming hydrochloric acid, AND 6 - 8
parts water with
the H2O2 and Hcl separately added *slowly* to the
water. This
concentration gives a useful etching speed. Waste
products are copper
II chloride (soluble with a low pH) and water.

DO's:
- Ventilation when pouring the Hcl out of the bottle
- A *good* impervious resist with no pinholes
- Occasional agitation to release small bubbles from
the surface of
the board
- water at hand to wash yourself if you get acid or
peroxide on your
hands. The peroxide in particular will attack skin
very rapidly
and you'll feel it.

DON'Ts:
- *DO NOT* mix the undiluted acid and peroxide
together. The
mix will produce copious amounts of chlorine (none
will be
produced if the mixing directions above are
followed).
- be tempted to use a strong mix to make etching much
faster.
A strong mix will not only etch a board bare in a
matter of
seconds, it will boil as well (spatter factor).
- be tempted to top up the acid and/or peroxide if
the etching
crawls to dead slow. Make a fresh mix instead.

Too much acid gives the mix a green hue during etching
and too much
peroxide makes the copper appear shiny. Ideal is for
an oystery sheen
to cover the copper if the board is lifted out of the
mix and
drained. If the acid is becoming exhausted, insoluble
blue deposits
appear on the copper. A correct mix will give the
mixture a blue
colour, deepening as more copper is dissolved.

The basic action seems to be that the peroxide
oxidizes the
copper leaving the oxide easy for the acid to deal
with.

Finally, the waste salt can be usefully mixed with
sodium carbonate
(washing soda) or sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to
make a useful
anti-fungal spray for fruit trees. The result is
copper carbonate
(low solubility) which needs to be washed several
times to remove the
soluble NaCl.

I started using this recipe about 30 years ago and
it is a
winner. No more awful stains or waiting for hours. I
can't claim
originality for it - I first saw it mentioned in a
letter in an
electronics periodical "Practical Electronics".

Regards,
Malcolm

On 11 Dec 2001, at 12:33, Tesla list wrote:

Original poster: "Steve Greenfield by way of Terry

Fritz
<twftesla@...>" <alienrelics@...>

I don't know, you should join and ask. ;')



I've used whatever Radio Shack sells and found at

best

it is adequate, at worst a waste of money and time.
I've also used some dry stuff I think was Ammonium
Persulfate that I was satisfied with.

A colleague told me he's used a weak Nitric Acid mix
to etch boards -very- quickly but you have to be

well

rested, have a lot of ventilation and really be

paying

attention. And your etch resist coating had better

be

complete.

Steve Greenfield

--- Tesla list <tesla@...> wrote:

Original poster: "Malcolm Watts by way of Terry
Fritz <twftesla@...>"

<m.j.watts@...>

Hi Steve,
What etching fluids are used by your
group members?

Regards,
Malcolm

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your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
or bid at

I had a go at making my first homebrew board last week, using a
marker pen, some etchant and a needle. First I set out the design
using software I borrowed called Easy PC. I printed the pin locations
on transfer paper and ironed it to the back of the board. Then I put
the needle into an electric drill, and made the holes. Next I drew
the tracks onto the copper side, and experimented putting it into
etchant for different lengths of time, until finally the unwanted
copper was gone. Then I rinsed and cleaned it. Okay, I think I learnt
the following:-

1. A needle leaves indentations on both sides of the board. (not good)

2. Life is easier if the holes are far apart.

3. Life is easier if the holes are far apart.

There is a commercial product designed to make PCB's with plotters; it
includes the copper. First you plot on the copper with the right ink,
then you stick the copper to substrate, then you etch. Jan Axelson's
book on PCB's has the address (I don't have the book or specifics)
for the materials.

Grant

--- grantfair2001 <grant.fair@...> wrote:

There is a commercial product designed to make PCB's
with plotters; it
includes the copper. First you plot on the copper
with the right ink,
then you stick the copper to substrate, then you
etch. Jan Axelson's
book on PCB's has the address (I don't have the book
or specifics)
for the materials.

On a plotter? But you can plot directly onto a PCB
without that extra step.

Check out the Links I laboriously added for some on
using a plotter. They give specific part numbers for
the pen and ink to use.

Steve Greenfield


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Hi,

I think everyone on the list should take a look on this link on the
"direct PCB plot section". Seem pretty much doable, even more for the
fortunate ones that have a CNC mill around. Regular size pens could be used.



Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

Thanks, just added it to the "Links" area of the list.

--- Alexandre_Guimar?es <alexg@...> wrote:

Hi,

I think everyone on the list should take a look
on this link on the
"direct PCB plot section". Seem pretty much doable,
even more for the
fortunate ones that have a CNC mill around. Regular
size pens could be used.

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Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
or bid at

If there is interest I will put up the HP G/L code on one of my web-
pages. HP/Agilent provides a little support for these old, workhorse
products, but not much. I also have a "fix" for converting the Gerber
output produced by Ultiboard to something which will plot on an
HP7475 in minutes instead of hours.

The old serial plotters go for a few tens of dollars on EBay.

Jack

I have posted a chunk of the HP Graphics Language on my site:
www.tech-diy.com , i.e. the instruction set, an example etc.

I think I missed something- what HPGL code are you
talking about?

I have a couple of those old HP plotters, both serial.
Thought that might be a good place to start for making
an engraver, use the electronics to drive beefier
drive transistors, steppers, and mechanics to move
something like a Dremel.

Steve

--- caveteursus <j.walton@...> wrote:

If there is interest I will put up the HP G/L code
on one of my web-
pages. HP/Agilent provides a little support for
these old, workhorse
products, but not much. I also have a "fix" for
converting the Gerber
output produced by Ultiboard to something which will
plot on an
HP7475 in minutes instead of hours.

The old serial plotters go for a few tens of dollars
on EBay.

__________________________________________________
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Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
or bid at

Hi Jack,

Yes! I'd be interested. I still have my HP7475 from '85, although I
use it only occasionally. Laser printers do such a good job on
schematics now! What "code" do you have? I hate to see them piled up
as surplus, makes me want to take them home with me, and give them a
good home!

All things HPGL would be welcome!

Alan KM6VV


caveteursus wrote:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Steve Greenfield <alienrelics@y...> wrote:

--- grantfair2001 <grant.fair@s...> wrote:

There is a commercial product designed to make PCB's
with plotters; [snip]

On a plotter? But you can plot directly onto a PCB
without that extra step. [snip]

Steve Greenfield

Hi Steve and list-

You are right, on a flat-bed plotter you can print direct to PCB, and
that is obviously much better than the system I mentioned in my post.
But, if someone does not have a flat-bed plotter, but does have the
kind where the paper moves back and forth between rollers, then that
method would be of value.

I haven't looked at the links you have provided but will do so with
thanks.

Grant

I did look at the links on direct plotting PCB's, and discovered that
it is possible with some non-flatbed plotters to stick a PCB on a
heavy piece of paper and plot right on the PCB. My previous post
missed that point. I don't know if all such plotters will do so, does
anyone else? Obviously the direct to PCB plot is the way to go
compared to the method Jan Axelson mentions (plot to copper, then
stick copper on PCB substrate).

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "grantfair2001" <grant.fair@s...> wrote:

But, if someone does not have a flat-bed plotter, but does have the
kind where the paper moves back and forth between rollers, then that
method would be of value.

Grant

you can also use the 'rolling paper' type plotters to plot directly onto
the board ,I used to do this on my old HP ColorPro

cut a piece of heavy paper (construction paper or Manila folder) to fit
the full width of the paper tray (a little over 8.5") and don't let the
plotter release it between the test plot and the board plot

I used Eagle to generate the HPGL code for the outline (dimension) layer
bottom traces and top silk (single sided boards)
then transfered the .plt files to a DOS boot floppy for an ancient
XT era laptop the plotter was hooked up to

use the mode command to configure the serial port
A:&#92;>mode COM1:9600,N,8,1,P
and send the test file to the plotter with
A:&#92;>type outline.plt > com1
this plots the board outline on the paper
use double stick tape to fix the board over the outline
and plot the traces with
A:&#92;>type bottom.plt > com1
etch the board flip it over and plot the silk layer the same way

the plotter does not release the paper between plots so it
wont lose its position the way it would with the windoze drivers

you may also want to edit the .plt files so it only uses one pen
and set the speed (velocity) fairly slow say 4 cm/sec with
SP1;VS4:
this helps keep the pens from clogging and lays down a thicker
coat of ink
I used extra fine point Sharpies in a drilled out pen body

Brian

I posted quite a few pages, there's more to do, but you will get the
idea. It's on www.tech-diy.com

you can play around with the codes, create a "*.txt" file and send it
with the following commands:

mode com1:9600,n,8,1,p
copy myfile.txt com1

I use WordPad instead of NotePad, as WordPad has "find and replace".

I've taken apart some of the Gerber files generated by Ultiboard --
they can be quite simplified -- the most annoying and time consuming
is the AA -- arc absolute -- in Ultiboard a 1% angle is specified --
this can and should be changed using "find and replace" in Wordpad.

I would like you to correct some of the info on your web page.

The following:
"World's Messiest Darkroom/Electronics Laboratory"
should read
"World's 2nd Messiest Darkroom/Electronics Laboratory"

Daryl

Uh, you don't want to make this a competition. Only reason I wouldn't beat both of you is on a technicality, as mine isn't a darkroom.

Caveteursus, thanks! I'm adding this to the Links section. BTW, if you post it with in front then it is a clickable link for most mail programs.

I have been playing with the various types of paper I can find
(coated, shiny, plastic foils etc). So far I have had the best luck
with an 80lb plain polished paper (it is quite shiny but no coating I
can detect). The combination that has worked the best is preheat the
board for 3 minutes and iron with gentle pressure (ie a little more
than the weight of the iron) for 30 seconds. The problem I am having
is getting the paper off when I have finished ironing. If I soak it
overnight I am fine but I would like to speed up the softening
process. Any suggestions? I was thinking of boiling water but I
suspect that will soften the toner to much. Are there any safe
chemicals that will soften the paper but not destroy the copper or my
kitchen?

My second question is if anybody knows of a way to get the printer to
deposit more toner. I am using an HP 1200 laserjet (which is great)
but I am getting better results if I run the paper through twice.
The problem with this is I don't always get perfect registration.

Brian

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "bhowden1" <bhowden@b...> wrote:

I have been playing with the various types of paper . . . . The
problem I am having
is getting the paper off when I have finished ironing.

I use Dyna Art. The paper just floats off in mildly warm water after
ironing. IIRC, this paper is coated with a a layer of sugar, so that
might be the secret.

Perhaps you could experiment by spraying your paper with a solution of
sugar in water, and letting it dry before using it.

My second question is if anybody knows of a way to get the printer
to deposit more toner.
Brian

There is a way in my printer software (I have a Panasonic KXP-6500) to
specify greater toner density. I'd call HP printer support and ask
them if this is possible with your machine. The other option is to
look for denser toner. I understand it is made, apparently for use
in printing graphics, but I don't know where to look for it. There are
lots of toner supply companies on the net and elsewhere. Or perhaps a
copy house which also does laser printing could tell you.

Grant

I have quite a few blue-sheets that have PCB designs on them. They have
mistakes in the routes so I could not use them.
If someone would like a sheet or two let me know. This is a good way to get
your ironing skills down before you use a good sheet. Just use Lacquer
thinner to remove the traces and use the board again.
Or if someone knows how to remove the toner from the blue sheet without
hurting the sheet let me know.
Derek