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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
In the late 90s I "ran" a shop where we had VM/SP 6 running on a 4381(P02?) as it had an AP, so that was configured in CP. It was the late 90s, I was itching to get out of that shop as the environment was dying due to numerous reasons.
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The concern about running VM after Y2K was the ONLY thing I was allowed to be concerned about. I didn't know anything about XA, and was unwilling to try to bring it up second level and certainly didn't know enough to get it running first level, during my service time slot.
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VM/ESA 370 Feature would allow that to happen, so I got it up and running second level and switched it to primary when I was ready. That kept the shop up and running over Y2K and I lost track of what they were doing, as I had enough on my hands with my new job, plus my old boss was literally out for my skin (nothing job related other than I visited our director in the hospital after she had a stroke, to say good bye. He heard about it and was pissed because he was VERY protective of her.)
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So for those sites, who may have had less capable Sys Progs, or were stuck with S/370 architecture. VM/ESA 370 Feature gave us some breathing room for Y2K.
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?... Mark S. |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
On Tue, 12 Nov 2024 at 11:36, Drew Derbyshire via <swhobbit=[email protected]> wrote: [...]
Some of this is discussed in Melinda's History of VM paper.? [soon after 1976] "...several of the most knowledgeable CP people who did go to Poughkeepsie, including Dick Newson and Per Jonas, were put into a separate group whose purpose was to build a tool that could be used for the development of MVS/XA. Pete Tallman, of VMA fame, also joined what came to be known as the ¡°VM Tool¡± project as soon as it moved to Poughkeepsie. Starting with VM/370 Release 3, PLC 06, the VM Tool group began building a fast, stripped-down CP that would create XA virtual machines on a real 370 so that the MVS developers could test MVS/XA." and later "Meanwhile, hidden away in a corner of Poughkeepsie, the VM Tool group, which had grown to a dozen people by 1980, continued to work on building an XA CP system and SIE microcode to support MVS/XA development and testing. By 1977, they had gotten together a system that would support XA guests (in 24-bit addressing mode) on a real S/370 with SIE emulated in software. They first IPLed an XA processor with SIE in microcode in October, 1979. By August, 1980, they had an XA VM system using SIE in production. Although their official purpose was to support MVS development, the group was composed of passionate VM loyalists who very much wanted to create an XA VM for VM customers." Tony H. |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
NOTE: Personally, I was fat, dumb, & happy on S/370 hardware until late 1987, which was well into the VM/XA SF era. What follows are what I recall from casual conversations with people shortly after that.? So I wasn't there at the beginning, my memories are 35 years old, and I have no notes.??
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On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 12:41 AM, William Denton wrote:when did DMK become HCP? I'm not even sure VM/XA CP even had any VM/SP or VM/HPO code. The progression was:
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CPTOOL (???) ¡ª>
VM/XA Migration Aid (1982?) ¡ª>
VM/XA System Facility (1985?) ¡ª>
VM/XA SP (1988) ¡ª>
VM/ESA ¡ª>
z/VM
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CPTOOL was internal use only to help get MVS/XA up. I don't know from who, when, or where it came, but time wise it may have predated VM/HPO.
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I doubt the CPTOOL changes came from the official VM/370 team; the CPTOOL team may have just grabbed the virgin VM/370 source and ran with it.
I was told that the VM/SP HPO folks did make serious progress to run on XA hardware, but the VM/XA official releases all came from the CPTOOL tree.?? ?
-ahd-
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p.s. An example of the IBM VM/XA folks going their own way: After DIRECT on VM/SP acquired profiles (with one copy of each profile accessed by all users), DIRECTXA on VM/XA got it too, but its?implementation had the profiles expanded in line. This resulted in a large shop having 25,000 identical copies of the profile in the directory.? They were not happy.??
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Drew Derbyshire Software Hobbit (SRE Emeritus) Kendra Electronic Wonderworks Kenmore, WA |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýOn 12/11/2024 08:30, William Denton via
groups.io wrote:
Whilst this is true, and you may find some of my rants about it in the vmshare archives at , in practice for much of CP the source code wasn't of use. Lots of the CP function was built into the hardware microcode as part of the SIE instruction. So even if we still had it, it wouldn't have been terribly useful. Dave G4UGM |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
One of the main things I really remember about the DMK-->HCP transition was that IBM abandoned the whole notion of source code maintenance. HCP started to have OCO modules!!! Up until that point, even lots of the code was poorly written by today's standards, at least we had the source code and we could do stuff with it. Source code based VM in all its forms was always a collaborative journey with IBM and its customers.
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Lots of the VM functional evolution happened because of customer driven change. The EDGAR Editor grew out of the PE Editor and all gave rise to XEDIT. PROFS was originally developed by Amaco, BNR, and others and picked up by IBM as one of the most successful mainframe productivity tools ever. Little things like TERM MORE and HOLD are direct copies of customer mods. The list goes on
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For a glimpse back at how part of this, I would encourage y'all to find a copy of the LSRAD Report. The hardcopy is out there someplace. There was also an accompanying 35mm slide deck that went with the public pitch... don't know if that still exists. (My shop, Home Savings of America, was one of the five featured customers in that presentation.)
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cheers,
William |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
Hi, Tony,
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What I recall is, IBM PokLabs was trying hard to "kill off" the whole VM product line around that time.
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What I heard is this:
Fortunately, Tom Watson Jr. was smart enough to realize what was going on, politically, inside IBM, and so he asked the PokLabs MVS-XA developers if they could create MVS/XA without using the internal version of VM/XA, and of course, they reluctantly admitted that they could not get it done in a timely manner without VM/XA.? ?With that, Tom made an executive decision and told them to stop trying to kill VM, and figure out how to make a VM/XA product to assist IBM's customers wanting to migrate to MVS/XA.
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That is what the original VM/XA Migration Aid was all about.? No enhancements to CMS at all; it was just the barest minimum to run MVS/XA under VM, and you could run "side-by-side" with MVS/370 in one VM and MVS/XA in a second VM.? ?This was well before the arrival of LPARs.
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Eventually, it evolved into VM/XA SP, and ultimately, VM/ESA.
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Another reason for the "HCP" designation (I heard it stood for "Hypervisor Control Program") was that for "XA", IBM had invented the 370-XA mode SIE instruction, that basically had put much of "CP" into the microcode.? So, the new HCP version of "CP" in VM/XA and above was very different from the older versions of VM/370 and VM/SP or HPO that came before on the original 370 hardware (before the arrival of 370-XA mode and the SIE instruction.)
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Mark S. Waterbury |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 at 03:59, Dave Wade via <dave.g4ugm=[email protected]> wrote:
The first appearance outside IBM of a CP that ran on an XA machine was the VM/XA Migration Aid, sometimes called XA/MA or XAMA, announced in 1981 (the same year as HPO for S/370).? XA/MA was for running MVS/XA and MVS/370 guests during migration, but had only the barest support for anything CMS related. (Kind of like CMS on zVM today...?) A full-function VM/XA took several more years, and a bimodal CMS a few more (1988). ? Its been a while but doesn't VM/ESA 370 feature still have DMK CP Modules. I'm pretty sure that's right. Tony H. |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
Interesting, because VM/ESA 370 is still DMK. That says it's not HPO like I was told it was. Not that I have any hardware on which it would make a difference... On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 5:37?AM gdblodgett via <gdblodgett=[email protected]> wrote: "when did DMK become HCP?" --
Jay Maynard |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
On 11/11/2024 08:41, William Denton via groups.io wrote:
So, thinking back a ways... I ran a large VM shop from /370 r3, SEPP, SP, HPO, and maybe one more after that before the bank decided that MVS (yuk) was the way to go...It would be when the short lived VM/XA appeared. Its been a while but doesn't VM/ESA 370 feature still have DMK CP Modules. So 370 mode == DMK, XA/ESA/Z == HCP cheers,Dave |
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
So, thinking back a ways... I ran a large VM shop from /370 r3, SEPP, SP, HPO, and maybe one more after that before the bank decided that MVS (yuk) was the way to go...
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I am trying to remember... when did DMK become HCP? I am thinking it was before ESA and z but I just don't remember... I sort of tuned out when IBM decided to no longer support VM and CMS at the source level.
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cheers,
William
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Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience
#VMCE
Thank you Ross! REGEQU worked like a charm, i didn't need to do anything, being logged in as CMSUSER, to get the macro compiled correctly. Now i'm looking at some video that promise to be interesting: VSAM on VM/370 KICKS! CICS for VM/370 I've a simple CICS application written in assembler command level and VSAM, it would be fun to have it run under VM/370. If anyone knows about samples or direct experience I'd be interested to listen to. Lucio, ? Il giorno dom 10 nov 2024 alle ore 00:25 Ross Patterson via <ross.patterson=[email protected]> ha scritto:
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
My understanding, from back then, was that VM/ESA 1.0 (so-called "370 edition") was a "mid-life kicker" to keep VM/SP and HPO customers happy, and allow them to migrate to VM/ESA, taking advantage of many of the small improvements on the CMS side, while still running on their older S/370 hardware, while waiting for IBM to deliver their shiny new S/390 machines.? IIRC, there was quite a long queue or "back-log of orders" of at least several months wait, from the time you ordered an upgrade to a 390, so this was a kind of "stepping stone" to help get the customers ready for the future, and made it easier to migrate the VM/ESA system from the 370 to the new 390, IIRC.
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
On 10/11/2024 16:30, Drew Derbyshire
via groups.io wrote:
Well as it was not VM/SP it had a new licence, so extracted money from those still on 370-only machines. It had the bi-modal capable CMS so it broke quite a few
applications, but it didn't actually work in ESA mode. It got rid of HPO so forcing folks with bigger machines to
upgrade to ESA Made SP6 look reasonable?
I think it had 4k key support so ran on machines with only this
feature, but I can't see the announcement letter to check.
Dave G4UGM
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Re: VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
As I understand it, VM/ESA 370 Feature v1 was effectively?VM/SP HPO release 7. I think they renamed it to assuage concerns about how long VM/ESA was taking, or something. On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 10:30?AM Drew Derbyshire via <swhobbit=[email protected]> wrote:
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Jay Maynard |
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VM/ESA 370 (was Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience)
On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 03:37 PM, Jay Maynard wrote:
Actually, VSE/ESA version 1, like VM/ESA 370 Feature, had an ESA name but ran on 370.I never did understand why they came up with that oxymoron of a name for VM/SP.? What DID it have?? Did it even include VM/SP HPO? ?
-ahd-
¡ª Drew Derbyshire Software Hobbit (SRE Emeritus) Kendra Electronic Wonderworks Kenmore, WA |
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Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience
#VMCE
Actually, VSE/ESA version 1, like VM/ESA 370 Feature, had an ESA name but ran on 370. Even that probably wouldn't run on VM/CE, and wouldn't be licensed anyway. On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 5:25?PM Ross Patterson via <ross.patterson=[email protected]> wrote:
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Jay Maynard |
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Re: VM/370 new thrilling experience
#VMCE
On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 15:26 Lucio via <lucio.fassio=[email protected]> wrote:
Yes: REGEQU.? You can instruct the assembler how to find it by the GLOBAL MACLIB CMSLIB command.
No.? VSE/ESA will not run in an S/370 machine, and VM/370 will not create any other kind of virtual machine. Ross |
Mark A. Stevens
Lucio
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