Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Sat, 5 Oct 2024 at 11:52, Mark A. Stevens via <marXtevens= [email protected]> wrote: On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 05:35 PM, laddiehanus wrote:
I thought someone updated the ASMXF source to reflect all the PTF’s a number of years ago.?
?
Isn’t there a S370 asm group? Probably there but I’ll see if I have a copy.
I searched the files on that list
?
?
and did not find any source code for Assembler XF. Maybe someone has better eyes than I do?
?
In more searching I found this from Tony Harminc, concerning building Assembler XF and problems encountered.
?
?
The above is a HUGE chain of e-mails regarding discrepancies Tony H found. I haven't gotten to the end of the story, but there's lots of information in there.
Ah yes, that thread... It goes 100% off-topic at some point around 2 April so there's very little point reading all the stuff about nifty macros to generate zArch instructions and such. Keep in mind that it's also spread across at least three Hercules groups: H390-MVS, H390-VM, and
hercules-os38. Largely my fault for posting to all three groups because I mostly tend to treat all the Hercules groups as one.
Rereading it, I'm not sure that my question about a "definitive" location for PTF source was ever resolved. Certainly? Paul Gorlinsky did a huge amount of work, but he? may have been working with a base slightly earlier than the latest available.
The obvious place to start is the Jay Mosley stuff. Also asking Tom Armstrong (who I haven't seen posting anywhere Hercules for some time) wouldn't hurt, as he was working on major enhancements to IFOX around the time of that thread (2017).
Tony H.
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 05:35 PM, laddiehanus wrote:
I thought someone updated the ASMXF source to reflect all the PTF’s a number of years ago.?
?
Isn’t there a S370 asm group? Probably there but I’ll see if I have a copy.
I searched the files on that groups.io list
?
/g/hercules-s370asm/files
?
and did not find any source code for Assembler XF. Maybe someone has better eyes than I do?
?
In more searching I found this from Tony Harminc, concerning building Assembler XF and problems encountered.
?
https://h390-mvs.yahoogroups.narkive.com/5fkFKcen/ifox-assembler-source-troubles
?
The above is a HUGE chain of e-mails regarding discrepancies Tony H found. I haven't gotten to the end of the story, but there's lots of information in there.
?
?... Mark S.
?
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 01:01 PM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
Is it possible to generate the complete VM/370 Community Edition including all the tools from source ?
Just about all the tools we have are available in source code, usually assembler, but some are in other languages.
?
I recently tried, and partially succeeded to install IOS3270. It does run, the only sample EXEC I have uses commands from VM/ESA, and I haven't got workarounds, yet.
?
That said, the PDF documenting the tools talks about building it from source, but none is provided from the IBM VM download site where I got the tool. This, then would be one we can not build from source.
?
?... Mark S.
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 09:55 AM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:01 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
The source is horrible, I have no idea why any one would torture themselves trying to re-assemble the assembler.?
Assembler XF is an essential tool to build VM/370, so I want to know if Assembler XF can assemble itself producing identical object code. Then I want to know if assembling CMS and CP using this freshly built assembler will produce identical object code.
?
Martin
?
What will you do if its different? I ran production VM systems for many years and always accepted that the Assembler worked, as we never had the source, or the space to fix it. Pretty sure if things were different some one would have noticed...
?
Dave
?
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:01 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
The source is horrible, I have no idea why any one would torture themselves trying to re-assemble the assembler.?
Assembler XF is an essential tool to build VM/370, so I want to know if Assembler XF can assemble itself producing identical object code. Then I want to know if assembling CMS and CP using this freshly built assembler will produce identical object code.
?
Martin
?
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 04/10/2024 02:13, William Denton via
groups.io wrote:
The only thing close to an internals manual is the Assembler
PLM SY33-8041... available from a couple of sources including
this one:
?
Not terribly useful but "better than a poke in the eye" as my
grandfather would say
?
Thanks for that. I think its a good working description. Might
make good bedtime reading.
cheers, William
_._,_._,_
Dave
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 03/10/2024 18:05, Martin Scheffler
via groups.io wrote:
Is it possible - legally and technically - to have all the
source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) on a CMS disk on VM/370
Community Edition and build it completely from source without
any running MVS system, MVS tools or MVS knowledge ?
Even with the source on a MVS pack arguably you don?t need any
MVS system or MVS tools, which is probably no one has bothered to
move it to a CMS disk.
The source is horrible, I have no idea why any one would torture
themselves trying to re-assemble the assembler.?
I think if you know enough to make changes you would know enough
to mount and use an MVS disk on CMS..
?
Martin
?
Dave
_._,_._,
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 12:05 PM, Martin Scheffler wrote:
Is it possible - legally and technically - to have all the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) on a CMS disk on VM/370 Community Edition and build it completely from source without any running MVS system, MVS tools or MVS knowledge
Since the code exists on MVS 3.8j, there is no reason it could not exist on VM/370. Just someone having the time to do so.
?
?... Mark S.
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
The only thing close to an internals manual is the Assembler PLM SY33-8041... available from a couple of sources including this one:
?
Not terribly useful but "better than a poke in the eye" as my grandfather would say
?
cheers, William
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
Is it possible - legally and technically - to have all the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) on a CMS disk on VM/370 Community Edition and build it completely from source without any running MVS system, MVS tools or MVS knowledge ?
?
Martin
?
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
A Clarification
?
For OS/360, OS/VS (VS1, SVS and MVS), IBM never shipped much (if any) source code with the "distribution materials" (PID tapes).
?
Customers had to order the "optional source materials" for each new version/elease,? and for each major component.? Those optional source tapes were always one release behind the current version, so assembling that source produced object code that never matched what was currently shipped, unless that module just had no maintenance (PTFs) applied (highly unlikely) in the interim.
?
So, the source code we have for "MVS 3.8j" is actually MVS 3.7 level code.
?
Hence, the hours of work needed by Paul Gorlinsky and others to recreate a version of source code that matches the current version of the object code.
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Updated Wiki Page: Reserved CMS Modification Numbers
#wiki-notice
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 03/10/2024 00:04, Mark Waterbury via
groups.io wrote:
Jay Moseley has this on his web site:
?
? ? ?
?
?
This includes a description of how Paul Gorlinksy
disassembled PTFed objects and retrofitted the changes to the
original source code for IFOX to create a new "base" source for
IFOX that matched the objects shipped with MVS 3.8J.? You can
download the updated materials from the above web page.
?
Thanks to Jay Moseley for all the work he has put into MVS
community edition and his SYSCPK Compiler Pack of assemblers and
compilers for use with MVS 3.8J, TK3, TK4- and TK5.
Here Here. Jay really did a lot of work on this stuff....
... and thanks to Mark for either digging this out. So it appears
that whilst the base Assembler source was distributed , the PTFs
were only shipped as object decks. This is certainly my memory of
how we serviced the assembler. I wonder is there an Assembler
internals manual, the code is horrid!
Dave
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Rexx PARSE test cases needed
I have a fix in progress for the BREXX bug that has been described as "BREXX PARSE errors with literals in the template" (), although that's just one aspect of the bug.? In order to confirm that I have fixed it, and that I have not made something else worse, I need some test cases for the Rexx PARSE instruction.? If any of you have known cases where BREXX'S PARSE does not behave correctly, especially cases that work correctly in either IBM VM Rexx, or in Mark Hessling's Regina implementation, I'd love for you to share them with me.? Likewise if you have "creative" uses of PARSE.
What I need is: 1) The PARSE statement. 2) An example input to be parsed. 3) The variable values that you expect it to set.
You can either add them to the issue at the link above, or you can mail them to me at Ross.Patterson@....? Please don't reply to this email, there's no need to fill everybody's inboxes. ?
Ross
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
Jay Moseley has this on his web site:
?
? ? ? ?
?
This includes a description of how Paul Gorlinksy disassembled PTFed objects and retrofitted the changes to the original source code for IFOX to create a new "base" source for IFOX that matched the objects shipped with MVS 3.8J.? You can download the updated materials from the above web page.
?
Thanks to Jay Moseley for all the work he has put into MVS community edition and his SYSCPK Compiler Pack of assemblers and compilers for use with MVS 3.8J, TK3, TK4- and TK5.
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
I thought someone updated the ASMXF source to reflect all the PTF’s a number of years ago.?
Isn’t there a S370 asm group? Probably there but I’ll see if I have a copy.
Laddie Hanus Sent from whatever device I am using.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 2, 2024, at 4:13?PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote:
?
On 02/10/2024 20:39, William Denton via
groups.io wrote:
One thing I found interesting in the referenced Assembler
mods was the mention of the existence of source code for the
Assembler In the MVS/370 distro.
?
The `ifmods.memo.txt` file inside `ifmods.zip` contains a
link to the original source of this mod. The link is stale but I
found the current file at .
This ZIP contains JCL to apply the mod by reassembling all of
Assembler Phase 4 (IFNX4*). SYSIN for the assembly steps is
`//SYSIN ? ?DD ?DSN=MVS370.SYM2.VOL1.PDS05(&MEM.),DISP=SHR`
That is probably not the actual PDS name from the MVS distro
but is a clear indication that the assembler source *was*
distributed by IBM at some point.
I never said it wasn?t. What I said was that it wasn?t
distributed with VM/370.
Pretty sure it is the actual PDS name from the MVS source disks
It would be interesting if someone were able to track down a
copy.
?
I am pretty sure I have a copy, but not to hand. A bit surprised
if its not available somewhere.
cheers,
William
_._,_._,
Dave
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 02/10/2024 20:39, William Denton via
groups.io wrote:
One thing I found interesting in the referenced Assembler
mods was the mention of the existence of source code for the
Assembler In the MVS/370 distro.
?
The `ifmods.memo.txt` file inside `ifmods.zip` contains a
link to the original source of this mod. The link is stale but I
found the current file at .
This ZIP contains JCL to apply the mod by reassembling all of
Assembler Phase 4 (IFNX4*). SYSIN for the assembly steps is
`//SYSIN ? ?DD ?DSN=MVS370.SYM2.VOL1.PDS05(&MEM.),DISP=SHR`
That is probably not the actual PDS name from the MVS distro
but is a clear indication that the assembler source *was*
distributed by IBM at some point.
I never said it wasn?t. What I said was that it wasn?t
distributed with VM/370.
Pretty sure it is the actual PDS name from the MVS source disks
It would be interesting if someone were able to track down a
copy.
?
I am pretty sure I have a copy, but not to hand. A bit surprised
if its not available somewhere.
cheers,
William
_._,_._,
Dave
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
One thing I found interesting in the referenced Assembler mods was the mention of the existence of source code for the Assembler In the MVS/370 distro.
?
The `ifmods.memo.txt` file inside `ifmods.zip` contains a link to the original source of this mod. The link is stale but I found the current file at . This ZIP contains JCL to apply the mod by reassembling all of Assembler Phase 4 (IFNX4*). SYSIN for the assembly steps is `//SYSIN ? ?DD ?DSN=MVS370.SYM2.VOL1.PDS05(&MEM.),DISP=SHR`
That is probably not the actual PDS name from the MVS distro but is a clear indication that the assembler source *was* distributed by IBM at some point. It would be interesting if someone were able to track down a copy.
?
cheers,
William
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 02/10/2024 09:45, Martin Scheffler
via wrote:
On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 09:27 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
I guess there should be notes about this on MAINTs
CMS disk...
I have found IFOXMODS MEMO F1 on MAINT 093 and ASMGEND EXEC I1
on MAINT 190 .
ASMGEND EXEC I1 has file mode number 1 and is not visible on
the S disk.
Why should it be. It would take up memory space for every user if
it were. Its only of use then the 190 is accessed for write access
so its mode 1.
I think there are a few things like that on the 190... Yup, and there's even a technique in CMS to make use of a lot of those mode 1 files.? The GENDIRT command that ASMGEND EXEC ?invokes will locate all the files ASSEMBLE MODULE cares about, and store their FSTs in it. ? Several of the old OS compilers use this technique. ?
The XF assembler has always been distributed by IBM this way.
Ross
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Re: Where is the source code of ASSEMBLER XF (IFOX00) in VM/370 Community Edition V1R1.2 ?
#VMCE
On 02/10/2024 09:45, Martin Scheffler
via groups.io wrote:
On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 09:27 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
I guess there should be notes about this on MAINTs
CMS disk...
I have found IFOXMODS MEMO F1 on MAINT 093 and ASMGEND EXEC I1
on MAINT 190 .
ASMGEND EXEC I1 has file mode number 1 and is not visible on
the S disk.
Why should it be. It would take up memory space for every user if
it were. Its only of use then the 190 is accessed for write access
so its mode 1.
I think there are a few things like that on the 190...
?
Martin
?
Dave
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Mark A. Stevens
Martin Scheffler