Re: ECPSVM under Hyperion
On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 05:37 AM, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
And Spinhawk is the development branch name for the regular example of
Hercules?
Spinhawk is (obsolete) Hercules 3.x.? Prior to Hercules Helper, it was Spinhawk was fair easier to to build.
Yes? And Pluto is what besides Mr. Mouse's dog, and a dwarf planet?
It's a Bloom County quote (in response to a congressional subpoena).
?
-ahd-
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Re: ECPSVM under Hyperion
Hello! And Spinhawk is the development branch name for the regular example of Hercules? Yes? And Pluto is what besides Mr. Mouse's dog, and a dwarf planet? ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@... "This signature was present when the impossible happened 23 years ago, twice." On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 1:08?AM Drew Derbyshire via groups.io <swhobbit@...> wrote:
The last time I tried to use ECPSVM assists, it was under Spinhawk; it didn't go well and I retreated to Pluto.
How is useful ECPSVM under Hyperion? It doesn't need to be 100% functional, but if I enable it any thing which is not functional needs be harmless (that is, not break processing).
Thanks,
-ahd-
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Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
A repeatable profile will be included as a demo in the next bleeding edge preview.
?
Martin
?
/* REXX */ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
/
*
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** This sample macro shows how to customise user interface elements ?**
** depending on file type. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** As a proof of concept, the PREFIX and the NUMBER commands have ? ?**
** been implemented to be effective on "view" level, which ? ? ? ? ? **
** currently looks like to be effective on "file" level. ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** Named PROFILER EE, this macro is a repeatable profile which ? ? ? **
** is called by EE after a file has been loaded into storage. ? ? ? ?**
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** Arguments: parse arg fn ft fm extra ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** filetype ? ? ? ?PREFIX ? ? ?NUMBER ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?**
** ----------------------------------- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** ASSEMBLE ? ? ? ?RIGHT ? ? ? ON ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?**
** EE ? ? ? ? ? ? ?LEFT ? ? ? ?ON ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?**
** EXEC ? ? ? ? ? ?LEFT ? ? ? ?OFF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** MAP ? ? ? ? ? ? RIGHT ? ? ? OFF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** otherwise ? ? ? OFF ? ? ? ? --- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
** These settings are tied to one specific file/view. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?**
** ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? **
*
/
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
parse arg fn ft fm extra ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
upper fn ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
upper ft ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
upper fm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
select ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? when ft = "ASSEMBLE" then ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? do ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? "PREFIX RIGHT" ; "NUMBER ON" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? when ft = "EE" then ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? do ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? "PREFIX LEFT" ?; "NUMBER ON" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? when ft = "EXEC" then ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? do ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? "PREFIX LEFT" ?; "NUMBER OFF" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? when ft = "MAP" then ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? do ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? "PREFIX RIGHT" ?; "NUMBER OFF" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
otherwise ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? do ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? "PREFIX OFF" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
end ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?
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Re: ECPSVM under Hyperion
Drew, There were issues with the floating point code. It looks like the fixes for these were added to the Develop branch in May ?
? but the last release I can find is from March ?so either build from Develop or disable DISP1 and DISP2 ? Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Drew Derbyshire via groups.io
Sent: 25 September 2024 06:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: [h390-vm] ECPSVM under Hyperion? The last time I tried to use ECPSVM assists, it was under Spinhawk; it didn't go well and I retreated to Pluto.
How is useful ECPSVM under Hyperion?? It doesn't need to be 100% functional, but if I enable it any? thing which is not functional needs be harmless (that is, not break processing).
Thanks,
-ahd-
|
The last time I tried to use ECPSVM assists, it was under Spinhawk; it didn't go well and I retreated to Pluto.
How is useful ECPSVM under Hyperion?? It doesn't need to be 100% functional, but if I enable it any? thing which is not functional needs be harmless (that is, not break processing).
Thanks,
-ahd-
|
Updated Wiki Page: Reserved CP Modification Numbers
#wiki-notice
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Updated Wiki Page: Reserved CMS Modification Numbers
#wiki-notice
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Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
I will check if the current snapshot is stable enough to show another bleeding edge preview. There are a lot of exciting new features and capabilities, at least as a Proof of Concept. Implementation details might change on further discussion.
?
But ... the missing instructions. I still live with my untreated ADHD and it is hard for me to write a bunch of instructions in advance. I will need frequent feedback.
?
Martin
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Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
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On 24 Sep 2024, at 18:45, William Denton via groups.io <williamedenton@...> wrote:
? Personally, I would like to see efforts on EE going into creating a rich enough REXX integration that would allow the "side modes" to be implemented in REXX.like IBM did.
?
cheers,
William
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
William, I think more than that, looking at the Functional Characteristics manuals for these from BitSavers ?
? and I was interested to read some had a light pen¡. Dave ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of William Denton via groups.io
Sent: 24 September 2024 17:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal? The /168 console (like the 158 & later) didn't have very many blinky lights. As I recall, just the five above the Interrupt, Start, Stop, Load buttons. So, the "not" microfiche viewer was the contraption to the left of the console that looked like a big dual-screen fiche viewer. One of the screens (as I recall, the left one) was an actual fiche viewer. The other one was the replacement for the blinky lights. It had two dials that would select row/.column in a matrix of display choices that would display (in lights behind the (lucite?) screen all the things lights should display -- PSW, regs, current address, etc. in addition to lots and lots of internal stuff... Now that I think about it, the front part of the console must have had rotary switches and other buttons to do things like set the location counter, set address stop, etc... Address stop and Inst Step for sure because I remember having to come in on a Sunday afternoon to work with the CE to diagnose and fix a clock comparator bug that I had to stop the machine at a certain location in CP and step thru a few instructions after the CE had set a bunch of probes Amazing what's lurking back in the dusty recesses in ones head
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Re: Reserving Modification Numbers
Perfect!! Thanks!!
-- William
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Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
Personally, I would like to see efforts on EE going into creating a rich enough REXX integration that would allow the "side modes" to be implemented in REXX.like IBM did.
?
cheers,
William
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Re: What is special about the 3066?
From a programming standpoint, the 3066 had different geometry (80x33), different set of buffer orders, and completely different CCWs, interrupts, and sense data. I think IBM only put software support in the operating systems was because the beast was THE system console. Nobody ever thought of it as being a "real" terminal that would run TSO or CICS... CMS was an exception but barely usable... Edit worked in terminal mode only as I recall... In my shop when we had the /168, the 3066 was only used during IPL and doing diagnostic work. In fact, the 168 console was stuck in a back corner of the computer room and all the real operation was done from a bank of real 3270s in the center
?
cheers,
William
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
The /168 console (like the 158 & later) didn't have very many blinky lights. As I recall, just the five above the Interrupt, Start, Stop, Load buttons.
?
So, the "not" microfiche viewer was the contraption to the left of the console that looked like a big dual-screen fiche viewer. One of the screens (as I recall, the left one) was an actual fiche viewer. The other one was the replacement for the blinky lights. It had two dials that would select row/.column in a matrix of display choices that would display (in lights behind the (lucite?) screen all the things lights should display -- PSW, regs, current address, etc. in addition to lots and lots of internal stuff...
?
Now that I think about it, the front part of the console must have had rotary switches and other buttons to do things like set the location counter, set address stop, etc... Address stop and Inst Step for sure because I remember having to come in on a Sunday afternoon to work with the CE to diagnose and fix a clock comparator bug that I had to stop the machine at a certain location in CP and step thru a few instructions after the CE had set a bunch of probes
?
Amazing what's lurking back in the dusty recesses in ones head
?
cheers, William
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Re: #VMCE #rexx EE goes XEDIT - compiling a wish list
#VMCE
#rexx
How important are the "side modes" of EE like FSLIST and FSVIEW ? I did not care of these up to now. I have reworked EE focussed on XEDIT as it was in VM/SP 1 (that means no FILELIST, RDRLIST ...).
?
Actually I have a Proof of Concept to have several UI Elements controlled by a "view" ... which means "file" as there is only one view per file now. A repeatable macro PROFILER EE written in REXX can decide by checking filename and filetype to set PREFIX to OFF, LEFT or RIGHT and NUMBER to ON or OFF. This setting will be tied to this one view/file and will not be affected by other files in the ring.
?
I might have broken something in FSLIST, I have not done much research how FSLIST internally works.
?
Martin
?
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Fish Fish via
groups.io
Sent: 23 September 2024 19:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
Dave Wade wrote:
[...]
I also don't see that using the non-base register instructions help a
lot. You don't?! Wow. Just... wow.
The existing code relies on base registers. Which, when eliminated, would free up those registers for other uses.
The problems occur because when you insert code you exceed the range
of the base registers. Which, when replaced with relative instructions that don't need base registers,
allows you to address anywhere from -128K to +128K from the current PSW (for
the short form), or anywhere from -4GB to +4GB for the long form.
You would probably need to replace a lot of code to get any benefit... More than likely, yes. But once done, you would NEVER again need to worry
about blowing a base register. EVER. Your module, from then on, could grow as
large as you would ever want.
We're talking about a ONE TIME fix (modification/rewrite) here, to eliminate the
base register problem ONCE AND FOR ALL.
*Forever*. Not at all. There are many changes to DMKGRF bobbling around the net. If you re-write it then working out how to fit these changes in becomes challenging.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
Dave
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
Dave Wade wrote: [...] I also don't see that using the non-base register instructions
help a lot. You don't?! Wow. Just... wow. The existing code relies on base registers. Which, when eliminated, would free up those registers for other uses. The problems occur because when you insert code you exceed the
range of the base registers. Which, when replaced with relative instructions that don't need base registers, allows you to address anywhere from -128K to +128K from the current PSW (for the short form), or anywhere from -4GB to +4GB for the long form. You would probably need to replace a lot of code to get any
benefit... More than likely, yes. But once done, you would NEVER again need to worry about blowing a base register. EVER. Your module, from then on, could grow as large as you would ever want. We're talking about a ONE TIME fix (modification/rewrite) here, to eliminate the base register problem ONCE AND FOR ALL. *Forever*. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Fish Fish via
groups.io
Sent: 23 September 2024 15:22
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [h390-vm] Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
Dave Wade wrote:
Fish,
I would prefer not to do this as I believe it would stop VM/CE running
on my P/390.
Dave Yes, you're right: it would.
Oh well. Just a thought. I also don't see that using the non-base register instructions help a lot. The existing code relies on base registers. The problems occur because when you insert code you exceed the range of the base registers. You would probably need to replace a lot of code to get any benefit...
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
mail: fish@...
Dave
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Re: What is special about the 3066?
On Mon, 23 Sept 2024 at 10:01, Doug Wegscheid via <dwegscheid= [email protected]> wrote:
What was unique about the 3066? I understand it was the integrated console for the /165 and /168, but what unique programming considerations were there for it? I see that some of the standalone utilities couldn't be used with it.
It was interesting from both the hardware and software points of view. I understand that the hardware was based on a stripped down 2250 with no actual graphics capability. Nonetheless it was a vector device, and indeed you could clearly see that the characters were "drawn" rather than being dot-matrix/raster. But somewhere in the middle was some kind of character-to-vector converter, and the driving software had no direct access to the vector stuff.
From the software POV it is a straightforward screen with character addressibilily. IIRC you can't just write to it without specifying where the first character is to go, and to read you have to first set the point to read from - hence the non-support by various standalone programs expecting a printer or line-mode console interface.
I couldn't find any information on it in Bitsavers (other than reference to not being able to use the 3066 with some of the standalone utilities). Yeah... I remember around 1974 that one of our sysprogs dug up the info and modified the then HASP II V3 on MVT to correctly write the $ HASP SYSTEM CATASTROPHIC ERROR message to the 3066 rather than to a 1403 printer that nobody ever noticed until a lot of running around trying to figure out what was wrong had taken place. I'm pretty sure the only actual doc is in the FETOMs and such, though it's possible there is some in the 165 (and 168) Operating Procedures, which don't seem to exist online though there are plenty of references to them.
And of course the way anyone has figured out how to deal with this device in "recent" years is by reading the code that does support it in VM (CP and I think CMS EDIT (maybe that was a user mod?)), OS/360 and descendants MVT/MVS/VS1 (that is essentially DIDOCS), and maybe TSS. To my knowledge there was never any kind of application support in the OS/360 line of products, e.g. TSO. And for good reason, given that there is only one such device per mainframe (maybe two for a 168/MP), so it's kind of the world's most expensive personal computer.
Tony H.
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Re: Support for 3066 Graphic Terminal
Dave Wade wrote: Fish,
I would prefer not to do this as I believe it would stop VM/CE
running on my P/390.
Dave Yes, you're right: it would. Oh well. Just a thought. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@...
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Martin Scheffler
