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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
OK, so I'm curious. MPs were available at the same time asAPs, IIRC. Was MP support strictly a VM/HPO feature? Base MVS 3.8 works on AP/MP systems just fine. My first sysprog job was on a 370/158AP running?3.8, and we did get a performance boost?when we added the AP. On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 8:12 AM Bob Polmanter <wably@...> wrote: AP support is available in VM/370? (not MP), but I wouldn't recommend bothering with it.? Because of the limitations where the attached processor cannot do i/o, it forces a lot of extra overhead onto the main processor.? Unless you have just the right mix of work loads, there is little benefit to using AP support.? You would need to have a lot of CPU-bound workloads that do little i/o in order to get any real benefit. --
Jay Maynard |
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
AP support is available in VM/370? (not MP), but I wouldn't recommend bothering with it.? Because of the limitations where the attached processor cannot do i/o, it forces a lot of extra overhead onto the main processor.? Unless you have just the right mix of work loads, there is little benefit to using AP support.? You would need to have a lot of CPU-bound workloads that do little i/o in order to get any real benefit.
Basically, I found that performance is no better than running in uniprocessor mode.? It's no worse, but you simply don't 'feel' the benefit of having an extra processor. With that said and at the time not aware of the lack of performance, I did go through the drill of getting AP to work on VM/370 R6.? This was using the Sixpack 1.2 system sometime around 2016.? I documented the effort and the steps to generate an AP nucleus as well as some bug fixes to CP in order to get it to run AP; those materials are in the files section of this group called 'ap.zip'.? This could be made to work on VM/CE but probably would not work right out of the box because VM/CE has had a lot of maintenance and changes since Sixpack 1.2 of 2016. I don't recommend even bothering because of poor performance of AP.? Worse, if you run AP you must turn off ECPS:VM which drags performance down even more.?? But if anyone has any interest and wants to dig through it and see what they could do with it, the files are there for those so inclined. Regards, Bob |
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBert I think I will also say that, whilst an AP version of VM might be ¡°nice to have¡± it doesn¡¯t add any function. Fixing it requires effort that could be directed towards fixing other things or providing things that are visible to users. Dave ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dave Wade via groups.io
Sent: 30 October 2022 22:43 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no? ? Bertram, The base VM/370 has AP support but I am not sure if you can generate an easily generate an AP nucleus in CE because we didn¡¯t update the AP modules. Dave ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier ? Hi, ? I'm wondering if VM/CE has AP and/or MP support? ? In 1981 and 1982, I was using VM/SP with an AP system and MVS on a MP system.? Just wondering if anyone added this support to VM/CE? ? Am I right that Herc supports AP and MP, right? ? I never looked, but how many AP and MP does VM/??? (the various versions) support? ? Thanks! |
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Re: How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: Bertram,/
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBert, What you see in these web sites, and in the Github repositories is the history of the teams and personalities that developed Hercules and its unlikely to be fixed. It¡¯s a common issue in Open Source Software which is why we have so many versions of Linux, Then there are the competing versions of free office suites, Open Office and Libre Office both of which have descended from StarOffice. Closer to home another Emulator SIMH now has two forks ? ? Its something we have to live with. Dave ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 31 October 2022 00:33 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [h390-vm] How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: Bertram,/ ? Hello Chris, ? Thank you.? My point is simple: For new people who are looking for Hercules (such as myself) it looks like Google is going to the website before the 4.4.1 on Github.? I'm hoping someone can fix what is going on to prevent more people from going to an old site. ? Bert On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 19:19 cjar1950 via <cjar1950=[email protected]> wrote:
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Official(?) Hercules web site
If you do a generic (default) Google search for "hercules390 emulator", the first link returned is for the VERY old/obsolete original " web site for Hercules version 3.07 (which is so incredibly old as to be laughable).
HOWEVER, if you then filter by date (click the "Tools" button, and from the "Any Time" menu, select "Past year", the SoftDevLabs Hyperion GitHub repository is the first link in the list: ALSO, if you go to the Wikipedia entry for "Hercules (emulator)": (emulator) you should clearly see in the sidebar, that the so-called (cough!) "Final" (cough!) release is reported as being version 3.13, released on 29 September 2017, over 5 *years* ago(!), and the entry for "Preview release" reported as version 4.0.0-rc0, also **5 YEARS** old. But then just below this sidebar box is another sidebar box titled "4.x Hyperion SoftDevLabs" which reports the last "Stable release" as version 4.4.1 released on January 7, 2022, only 9 months ago (with a link to its corresponding web site, ). Now, if you were interested in the most current Stable release of the Hercules-390 emulator (i.e. the one which appears to be the ONLY one being actively maintained), which one would YOU choose? -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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Re: How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: Bertram,/
Bertram,
I can see the problem. On Yahoo, you get:- www.hercules-390.org www.hercules-390.eu www.hercules-390.github.io sdl-hercules-390.github.io I do not know how to correct this, as each site has a different owner. It looks as if Yahoo returns websites according to their age (oldest first). Not ideal. Chris -- <cjar1950@...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 19:32:43 -0500 "Bertram Moshier" <herc370390vm@...> wrote: Hello Chris, |
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
VM/379 has no MP support. OK, why would AP support be nice? Details, please. Bob Bolch On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 7:44 PM Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:
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Re: How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: http://www.hercules-390.org/
Thank you Joe. I hope I'm the last to find 3.07 before 4.4.1 Bert. On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 19:03 Joe Monk <joemonk64@...> wrote:
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Re: How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: Bertram,/
Hello Chris, Thank you.? My point is simple: For new people who are looking for Hercules (such as myself) it looks like Google is going to the website before the 4.4.1 on Github.? I'm hoping someone can fix what is going on to prevent more people from going to an old site. Bert On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 19:19 cjar1950 via <cjar1950=[email protected]> wrote: Bertram, |
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Re: How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: http://www.hercules-390.org/
There is no MSI. Just unpack the zip file from here:? Thats it. Use your existing config files and away you go. Joe On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 6:40 PM Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
Hi Dave, Updating the AP code and adding MP might be nice.? I'm assuming (oh, yeah, I know what that can mean) Hercules supports multiple processors (e.g. sockets and cores).? If so, it would be nice for VM/CE to reflect the hardware one could buy.? I can't say it is a major / high priority, but it would?be nice for VM/CE to be more than just a UP OS. Bert. On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 5:43 PM Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm@...> wrote:
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How does one install Hercules 4.4.1 on Windows? Issue with: http://www.hercules-390.org/
Hi, I've been running?Hercules 3.07 for two reasons: 1) It is what was discussed in the YouTube video I watched about SixPack and Hercules.? (Also why I started with SixPack.) 2) The link? makes it sound like 3.07 is the latest and that it is the official site for Hercules. Fish pointed out I should be on 4.4.1.? I uninstalled 3.07 and now am having problems installing 4.4.1. I'm not a very good Windows person.? I know the basics, but that's it. I used?hercules-3.07-w64.msi to install Hercules.? I can't find a MSI file for Hercule 4.4.1.? I found lots of instructions on how to build Hercules from the source code (I don't have the Microsoft C compiler or anything else in?Windows software development). I got what looks like Hercules 4.4.1 from GitHub.? I looked for a Hercules*.msi in the Hercules 4.4.1 files, but can't find it. I looked on the GitHub site for Windows installation instructions, but couldn't find any.? Oh, I think I said that -- but that is my problem. Maybe someone can reach the person doing the? website and have them update it for 4.4.1?? Please. Thank you. So, bottom line:? Where do I find 4.4.1?? How do I install 4.4.1 on Windows? Thank you. |
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýBertram, The base VM/370 has AP support but I am not sure if you can generate an easily generate an AP nucleus in CE because we didn¡¯t update the AP modules. Dave
? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bertram Moshier
Sent: 30 October 2022 21:39 To: [email protected] Subject: [h390-vm] AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no? ? Hi, ? I'm wondering if VM/CE has AP and/or MP support? ? In 1981 and 1982, I was using VM/SP with an AP system and MVS on a MP system.? Just wondering if anyone added this support to VM/CE? ? Am I right that Herc supports AP and MP, right? ? I never looked, but how many AP and MP does VM/??? (the various versions) support? ? Thanks! |
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Re: AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
VM/370 has AP support... Page 85:? Joe On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 4:39 PM Bertram Moshier <herc370390vm@...> wrote:
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AP and/or MP support in VM/CE: Does it exist or no?
Hi, I'm wondering if VM/CE has AP and/or MP support? In 1981 and 1982, I was using VM/SP with an AP system and MVS on a MP system.? Just wondering if anyone added this support to VM/CE? Am I right that Herc supports AP and MP, right? I never looked, but how many AP and MP does VM/??? (the various versions) support? Thanks! |
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Re: Do I have a looping issue?
"In my opinion IEAVEVAL should be changed to prefer using TPROT as its first choice, and then only when that fails to accomplish its goal, to only THEN fall back to using its existing CS technique." And they did that :) Just not until MVS/XA. Joe On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 1:44 PM Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote: Joe Monk wrote: |
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Re: Do I have a looping issue?
Joe Monk wrote:
Fish wrote:[...] Oh?But I personally think it's quite telling that IBM didAu contraire, mon ami poissonneux! They "changed" it to TRY to use a TPROT first ... but if theWhich sounds like the *correct* way to do things! My point is (and HAS been all along (even if I failed to make that clear)) wasn't to completely eliminate/replace the current CS technique with TPROT instead, but rather to *prefer* using TPROT over CS so as to avoid using CS unless the routine was left with absolutely no other choice. I apologize for not making that clear. I've been arguing so hard for "using TPROT instead of CS" that it's easy to misconstrue that to mean complete elimination/replacement of CS with TPROT. I apologize for unintentionally conveying that.. My handicap here is I'm unfamiliar with IEAVEVAL and what it's ultimate goal is, i.e. what it's trying to ultimately accomplish. I can only guess that it's to perform some type of caller access validity check on some type of storage range the caller wishes to access. Yes? Thus to me using an instruction like TPROT makes infinitely more sense than using CS and intercepting the resulting program check(s). In my opinion IEAVEVAL should be changed to prefer using TPROT as its first choice, and then only when that fails to accomplish its goal, to only THEN fall back to using its existing CS technique. The goal here is to fix MVS to not use its current CS technique as its "first technique of choice". It should instead be its "choice of LAST RESORT". It should use some type of TPROT technique instead as its "go to" technique of FIRST choice. In rather suspect that if IEAVEVAL were changed to use a TPROT technique instead as its first choice, that doing so would very likely cause the undesirable CS technique to hardly ever being used (if at all). In any case, doing so would certainly reduce the number of Protection Exception messages to the bare minimum, and could likely eliminate them altogether is most situations. OR... one could simply add a "PGMTRACE -04" statement to ones configuration file in addition to the "OSTAILOR MVS" (or "OSTAILOR OS/390") statement too. After all, my sole goal in all this mess was to try and discourage the current use of OSTAILOR QUIET, which IMO is wrong. So either way is fine with me: use OSTAILOR MVS and PGMTRACE -04 (undesirable but acceptable) or fix (enhance) IEAVEVAL to prefer using TPROT instead of CS. I'm tired of arguing the point and I'm sure others probably are too. Mt stance on the issue should hopefully be clear by now. I leave you guys to do whatever it is you want. I'm going to shut up now. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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My POFILE XEDIT has for ages some filetype synonyms, like A for ASSEMBLE, E for EXEC etc.
But, that initial setup was not perfect: if you happen to have a file named "TEST A A" you are unable to XEDIT it (unless with option NOPROF) So what I did after a while was something rougly like this ? parse arg fn ft fm '('? options ? address command 'STATE' fn ft fm? /* if file exists: don't use ftype synonyms */ ? if rc<>0 then ft=changeShortFtypes(ft) ? 'LOAD' fn ft fm '(' options ?? -- Kris Buelens |
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Re: Do I have a looping issue?
On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 at 12:02, Joe Monk <joemonk64@...> wrote:
Ah - OK - it's the callable service
IARBRVKR (which you could've mentioned). This claims to be a TPROT *replacement*, though it surely uses TPROT under the covers. Thing is, nobody is going to implement such a routine for MVS 3.8, since it surely requires an in-depth knowledge of the virtual storage management control structures (which are very different in z/OS vs MVS 3.8) in order to determine its result. So it seems there is (not surprisingly) no magic new instruction that can do a TROT for paged out pages. Tony H. |
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