Great information, thank you for sharing.

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Burak 骋ü谤别谤

Türkiye (owner Ad 951-K740S-FB710)

gurerwoodcraft/Instagram?

PSA is for compromised application/installation environments,?and can have issues with finish solvents and heat - even sunshine through a window - releasing over time. Also can have issues applying over older finishes that fail when the old finish loses adhesion to substrate. If you are making new, isolated parts with vacuum?press bag, go with the thickest paper back available (lots of paper back is 10mil, some is 20-22mil) for most bubble-free stability and insurance against application-caused defects. While cutting the doors, cut an extra set for platens.

For glues, I'd recommend PVA for a project like this. Must use firm foam roller for thin even glueline layer under veneer and fast absorption of moisture into both substrates), lest even slightly more thickness of glue line can have profound undesirable effects, such as the rubber "treaded" rollers found at Rocker and elsewhere.? If you are spry and the weather isn't too hot/dry, standard PVA like Titebond I/II . If not feeling spry - use longer open time of? Titebond "Cold Press 5176"? - now only offered in a neutral brown tint anyway. I don't think it's worth going to mixed powder glues or such for a small one-off like this when PVA is easy to clean, forgiving, and familiar to work with.?

Not Wenge specific, but I've had great results buzzing a Festool RTS400 with as low as 80 grit, chamfer-style to trim excess veneer edges and contour corners and skip the router trimming step entirely, eliminating nearly any tearout.

Show quoted text

On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 8:39?PM David P. Best via <dbestworkshop=[email protected]> wrote:

It’s been several years since I did any veneer work, and I’m looking for some advice. ?

I’m about to start the doors and drawer front for a large??(which is largely complete except for the front faces) and one of the options is to start with 19mm plywood and apply a quarter-sawn Wenge veneer.? I have the choice between paper-backed veneer with [pick your favorite] glue in a vacuum bag setup, or to go with veneer that has a 3M PSA adhesive layer on the back side.? I’ve never worked with the latter, and I see all kinds of new and different glues available now for conventional vacuum bag glue-ups.? So I’m looking for suggestions & guidance that is “current day” informed.? I am NOT interested in a contact cement approach.

This specific project will have a 19mm ApplyPly Premium substrate (12-layer birch with maple face). I would cut the three individual parts ~3mm undersized, apply 5-6mm thick Wenge edge band, then apply the Wenge face veneer, then fit and cut to finial size based on actual cabinet openings.? There are two door panels that are 14” wide by 46” tall, and one drawer face that is 28” wide and 15” tall.? I can source the quarter-sawn Wenge veneer with either paper or PSA adhesive backing in 4x8 sheets.

Since I’ve never worked with PSA-backed veneer, I’m a bit skeptical not sure I want to experiment - so looking for input here.? I see various comments that the substrate material should be finished with sealer, varnish, lacquer, etc. prior to applying the PSA-backed product. ?

And if I do decide to use a traditional paper-backed veneer and vacuum bag route, which of the myriad of current glue alternatives is the best choice.

I’ve never worked with Wenge veneer either, so if anyone here has, I’d love to get some understanding about crosscutting it after glue-up and what kind of tear-out challenges I might have to contend with.

Thanks for your suggestions.

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...

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Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110

314.772.2167
brett@...

#140951

Hi David,

I do a fair amount of veneering flat panels, though I’m typically working with 1/16" thick veneer, which is a bit more forgiving than the thinner material you're using. I’ve had decent results with Better Bond X-press. It’s easy to work with and has a relatively short clamp time. That said, it’s water-based, so it tends to cause the veneer to curl if you’re not moving quickly. It also isn’t really formulated for thicker veneers, so bond strength and consistency can be variable in those cases which is why I've moved on from using it.

I’ve since switched to Unibond 800, which is a urea formaldehyde based adhesive. It’s been excellent in terms of rigidity, creep resistance, and overall bond quality. The open and clamp times are longer: 1–3 hours depending on temp. It can sometimes slow down the workflow but I think the tradeoff is worth it. My main concern is the health implications of long-term exposure. I do all of it in a vacuum bag and I use heating blankets to accelerate the cure time.

I’m definitely curious to hear what adhesives others are using.

Steve

?

#140952

Hi David,

I don't have any experience with the PSA backed veneers, but you couldn't pay me to experiment on a customer's project with it. There's no way that glue line is going to be rigid enough to prevent creep.?

My 2 cents on paperback veneer is that it sucks. Yes it's convenient to not have to seam raw veneer yourself. I have found that PVA type glues do not like to stick real well to the paper. I had a?recent little project making new panels for an old door, and the?customer was adamant about matching the other rotary cut red oak veneered doors nearby. That ugly veneer was only available as a paper backed product so I was forced to use it. The panels were around 9" wide, and I made a couple full length to cut to size after veneering. I am veneering something all the time, so I'm pretty confident I?know how much glue is enough. On both of these panels, I had areas of delamination around the edges, that I could pull right off. This was glued with Unibond One. I don't have this problem with raw veneers. On the contrary, on the occasion that I need to remove a piece of veneer, I find it usually takes some of the MDF substrate with it, the bond is so good.?

You probably recall my kitchen job that bit me in the ass, rift white oak on Europly. All my doors are veneered onto MDF now.? I haven't specifically used Appleply as we don't have a dealer here in the midwest, but I can't imagine it's much different from the Europly.? I'd employ your same technique with MDF core, band it, then get yourself some nice raw wenge from Certainly Wood and you'll be golden.?

Jason

Wenge

Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture

3307 Snelling Ave. South

Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765

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Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406

#140953

I've used Lacewood PSA veneer on an MDF substrate for a large coffee table - ?I used Shellac on the MDF and sanded it before applying the veneer. Also veneered the opposing side to ensure stability but used a cheaper veneer. This may have been overkill.
Straightforward process - due to the strength of the PSA, positioning needs to be as simple as possible (it is something you can only do once). Might be easier to apply it to an oversize substrate, then cut to size and apply edge banding. Have had no problems with the stability of the finished table. The veneered top is surrounding by a stained solid maple frame with ebony edge banding between the maple frame and the top - it has stood up to daily use for at least 10 years and still looks as good as new. I finished the table with Arm R Seal varnish.

#140954

On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 07:02 AM, Steven B wrote:

Unibond 800

I like UF glue but I can't get it locally anymore last time I looked and the stuff I used only had about a year of shelf life.? ?Silas Kopf uses it, maybe not all the time but he likes it.

#140955

I did a job for an architect with Wenge veneered doors.? ?He had six sheets of MDF laid up and finished by a supplier he knew of and I went down and picked the sheets up when they were ready.? I should have asked some questions at the place because it didn't look like they did the woodworking there.? So you might look into outsourcing like that.? They came with protective film on both sides.

?

If you don't have the pump, bag and plattens you need now it will cost you time and money to get the equipment together.? I've used veneering glue sold by Joe Woodworker the times when I have done veneering with paper backed veneer.? ?I've tried it on unbacked veneer with PVA and hot hide glue on practice pieces.? With the right substrate both seem to work.? ? I have a large book press I can use as a small veneer press which is faster to do than messing around with the bag and platen requirements of vacuum veneering.?

?

The PSA might work but I have confidence in PVA glues for general work.? It can bleed through pores and joints in unbacked veneer but that won't be an issue for you here.

?

#140956

Hi David
I do a lot of veneering, but always with regular veneer. So everything that follows may not apply to paper back 
The rule of thumb is to not have the face veneer grain direction parallel to the ply under it but this may not be as important with paper back. 
I prefer your sequence of edge banding and then veneering over the banding but the PSA layer may be visible on top of the edge banding. Perhaps more so with a stain. 

I think all of the non rigid glueline glues (usually some variant of PVA) soften with heat. I bet PSA is the same. 
I used PVA when I started and once discovered a little veneer lifting with dark stained wenge that was in direct sun. I went to a rigid glue after that.  
Unibond 800 is my fav. Make sure you read the directions and let it sit for at least 5 minutes before applying. 
Another rigid glue is powder plastic resin but can be a pain to mix well and I prefer not to introduce moisture to the assembly. 
Wenge veneer is particularly hard to hand cut (before veneering). Track saw is the way to go. Sliding table saw will work too, usually I clamp a board on top and sometimes the trailing edge blows out and/or the scoring blade tears out (this can be related to the depth of scoring blade cut).
Wenge splinters seem to get infected more than other species…
If you want to use regular veneer, it shouldn’t be hard to find a place that will clip it (shear) to your widths. It can be challenging to set up a slider jig and the results may be mediocre. A track saw will be better.  Seaming the veneer is easy and you’re now starting with thicker veneer. The downside is you should have good belt sanding skills- Wenge is like leathery steel and orbital sanders will be slow. 
Certainly Wood sells regular veneer in small quantities rolled and shipped UPS. Ship it to me and I’ll clip it. 
There is another sheet veneer option that I think is still around:  No Black Line or 2- ply. It’s a 4x8 sheet and the face veneer is thicker than paper back. 

Good luck, let me know it you’ve any other questions. 
Lloyd Natof
Oak Park IL

#140958

I haven’t used paperback veneer since I last did commercial work a LONG time ago so can only comment on raw and shop sawn.

?

Ideally you want a hard glue line to avoid creep, urea would be the best but I don’t like dealing with it so I use a high solid PVA like Unibond 1 which gives a hard enough glue line in my opinion.

?

I did my tool cabinet doors with 12mm BB with Raw Walnut veneer on the fronts and Cherry on the back in a solid Cherry frame and have seen no warp/twist and thats in an unconditioned garage (other than heat) with on occasion 10-15 degrees temperature swings and 10-15% RH.

?

Although sacrilegious in my early years I used yellow PVA and can tell you I have some furniture going back 35 years that were done with yellow PVA and see no creep, one of them is a Walnut burl on MDF with solid walnut edges, however only about 12” x 12” book matched finished with lacquer.?

I have no experience with PSA backed veneer, only thing I could add is that I would be concerned with creep and if using a solvent based finish de-bonding.?

Mark

#140966

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Thanks to everyone who responded with helpful suggestions with the benefit of experience. ?I have decided to use MDF as the substrate, and just ordered the raw veneer from Certainly Wood and Unbond 800 glue from Vacuum Pressing Systems. ?Much appreciated. ?

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

#140982
Edited

Stephen,

?

??????????? I've used Better bond x-press with some success. But if you're veneering anything large, it's pretty much impossible to get it rolled out before it starts to set up. If you're doing one or two drawer fronts at a time it's definitely quicker and is very thick, so you get? less bleed through. There's no mixing so that's a time saver. Unibond 800 is better for larger work. Tom Ruth

?

#140983

David,

?

?????? You might also try "light" MDF. It's my go to for cabinet doors and drawer fronts for veneering. Light MDF is a lot easier on your back to carry around.? Also, when you get drawers loaded with stuff, I don't like a heavy drawer front that adds to the total weight of the drawers. It is slightly softer, but I don't think it affects durability much. Also don't forget to get some "backer veneer"? for the back sides of your work. You can use a cheaper species of veneer than your face side. Tom Ruth

David P. Best All Messages By This Member #140946 开云体育 It’s been several years since I did any veneer work, and I’m looking for some advice. ? I’m about to start the doors and drawer front for a large??(which is largely complete except for the front faces) and one of the options is to start with 19mm plywood and apply a quarter-sawn Wenge veneer. ?I have the choice between paper-backed veneer with [pick your favorite] glue in a vacuum bag setup, or to go with veneer that has a 3M PSA adhesive layer on the back side. ?I’ve never worked with the latter, and I see all kinds of new and different glues available now for conventional vacuum bag glue-ups. ?So I’m looking for suggestions & guidance that is “current day” informed. ?I am NOT interested in a contact cement approach. This specific project will have a 19mm ApplyPly Premium substrate (12-layer birch with maple face). I would cut the three individual parts ~3mm undersized, apply 5-6mm thick Wenge edge band, then apply the Wenge face veneer, then fit and cut to finial size based on actual cabinet openings. ?There are two door panels that are 14” wide by 46” tall, and one drawer face that is 28” wide and 15” tall. ?I can source the quarter-sawn Wenge veneer with either paper or PSA adhesive backing in 4x8 sheets. Since I’ve never worked with PSA-backed veneer, I’m a bit skeptical not sure I want to experiment - so looking for input here. ?I see various comments that the substrate material should be finished with sealer, varnish, lacquer, etc. prior to applying the PSA-backed product. ? And if I do decide to use a traditional paper-backed veneer and vacuum bag route, which of the myriad of current glue alternatives is the best choice. I’ve never worked with Wenge veneer either, so if anyone here has, I’d love to get some understanding about crosscutting it after glue-up and what kind of tear-out challenges I might have to contend with. Thanks for your suggestions. David Best DBestWorkshop@... https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/ https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
Marty Gildea All Messages By This Member #140947 David, I have been following a very talented Australian woodworker (Nick Pedula) and he has several YouTube videos dealing with various aspects related to veneering. Here’s a link to one of his videos.? If you poke around you will others that talk specifically about different glues.? Martin Gildea madigabr@...
Andy All Messages By This Member #140948 开云体育 Hi David - I’ve used Better Bond XPress (dark) for recent walnut projects. ?It was recommended by veneer supplies and I can attest that it is excellent for veneering wood and paper backed veneers. ?The darker color is great if there is any bleed through and edge profiles. It sets up in 90 minutes in a veneer bag. ?

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