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It would be about 4500$ retail for mine.?
What nobody has factored into the cost equation is how many tersa blades you can purchase for the option cost on the insert cutterhead.? Isn't it a couple thousand dollar option? Dave Davies
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 12:18?PM Mike Leiferman < leiferman@...> wrote: Next time I am tempted to write, I think I will ask the three Dave’s to review prior to pushing send.
Well reasoned and insightful, David S.
Mike ?
Don't think it's a push at best.? From a total cost perspective it could be a clear winner.? It could also be a clear loser.? Like you said, it depends on the circumstances.? Which,? in this case is lots of teak with frequent knife changes.
Plenty of large scale facilities using plain straight knives too.? What's your point ?
Sam's piece / opinion doesn't really re-enforce your position.? He hedges by saying "probably" for each type of head and and shop.? Plus he doesn't broach the cost of either head, ever.? So it's really impossible to use his musings in a discussion on? "which is cheaper". ??
Furthermore - I? NEVER said segments only belong in a garage shop - nor is it my opinion.? Let's look at what I actually said:
" So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or
shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper
because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor
of segments adds to the equation."
I said segments will be CHEAPER for the garage shop because they are less likely to change blades and approach the cost savings in labor that Tersa affords.?? That's a big difference from saying it only belongs in a garage shop.? HUGE.?
It's a pretty simple math problem.?? The more you change blades and the higher your labor costs are , the cheaper Tersa becomes.? The less you change blades and the cheaper your labor is , the cheaper a Segment is.? This is true whether you're in a garage in rural Mississippi or a state of the art factory in California.
Another way to look at it to ask yourself why production lines of all types want to automate and replace humans with machines pretty much everywhere they can ?? Not because it's cool, but because it's cheaper at the end of the day.
D
I didn’t “come around” to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You’ve only gone ahead and proven that it’s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn’t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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I didnt think the discussion was getting too spicy.?
Im the?aforementioned well-heeled garage warrior. Although, I technically work out of my garage and my basement. I have tersa running m42 knives in my 500mm jointer, and i have a byrd in my 20" powermatic import planer. The surface finish off the byrd leaves A LOT to be desired. However, those carbide edges go and go and go and go. I swapped them after the first year of running maybe 4-5,000 bdft of 8/4 through the machine thinking, "these have to be dull by now and i am simply not noticing it". There was no distinction in cut quality after the rotation, none. The second time i rotated the inserts was 3-4 years later. I noticed a slight improvement in surface finish from that rotation. It was said before, but rotating the inserts is a complete PITA. The marketing will have you believe it's?as easy as 1,2, 3... but it's a multiple hour job. I think i timed myself the second time and it was almost two hours to mark, remove, clean, reinsert, and torque all 100+/- cutters. Now, keep in mind that is one marathon session required every 3-4 years of modest hobbyist usage. My jointer requires a 5-7 minute tersa knife swap roughly twice a year.?
Personally, i dont?care too much about the time required for a swap or the cost of the knives/cutterhead. I want the best surface finish. Between my two machines, the jointer produces the vastly superior planed surface. The byrd would be acceptable to me if i planned on running a ton of rough lumber through it and i had a means of quickly kissing it with a widebelt?afterwards. The chip compaction in my cyclone bin is very nice off the byrd. The tersa fills the bin with half as much sawdust because the shavings are long and fluffy.?
I am very interested in seeing the high end hermance, martin, felder helical cutterheads in person.?
Patrick
I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider.? For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact.? The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time.? Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
Now we're really gonna get into the weeds.? a Tersa head isn't free either.? And might even be the most expensive purchase option initially.? Depends on where it's sourced.? SCMi is prob. cheaper than Felder, and both likely cheaper than sourcing one on your own.
Right now, a SilentPower head on a 16" Hammer combo J/P is less than $200 over their self aligning blade system.? And you can have it delivered today.? Don't know what the Tersa option adds or subtracts or how long the wait would be for it to be made.? I think it's safe to say a Tersa will be more money in this scenario.
A 12" head directly from Tersa is roughly $2750 these days.
But if we're talking about a F4 Dual 51...........................I have no idea what the SP option runs on that.? I think it safe to say it's not going to be $200.
D
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Calm down fella - I haven't called anyone names.? Questioning your decisions is not name calling.?
Perhaps you should heed your own advice and listen to other's viewpoints too.
Assuming a consumable will decrease overhead when it might very well increase it would also be a mistake.? My position has always been that purchase cost is not the sole thing to figure out true and total overhead cost.? It was also that Andy's computation of blade cost was flawed.?
I've acknowledged that how you run your operation only needs to satisfy you (as long as you're the only -or- majority shareholder)?? And it's absolutely fine that you want to value tool capability, process speed, and duty cycle as most important.? All I'm saying is that if you don't fully (and accurately) measure, calculate, and account? (charge) for all that attendant labor - you are leaving money on the table.? And ignoring or miscalculating it as Andy seemingly is, doesn't make it magically disappear from the accounting ledger.
? With regard to your first variable - aren't there lots of machines, tooling and processes that would be capable of executing the work you're asked to do ?? I think we all know the answer is yes, so you must use some other yardstick by which to select a particular one, yes ?? I'll bet the decision comes down to its effect on overhead.
Or are you gonna tell us it's process speed ? ? ? ? counts against overhead Or, attendant labor for changeout ?????? counts against overhead.
Maybe it's just plain ol' purchase price..........counts against your overhead
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 02:21:30 PM EDT, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
I’d suggest you take a break from posting on forums until such time as you can listen to the experience of others without name calling. In my business cost is always the least important variable. It is a distant third for my clientele being upstaged by the quality of the work and the timeframes in which the work is executed. In my shop of primary importance is that the machine, process or tooling is capable of executing the work. Second to basic functionality is process speed. Third is duty cycle and the attendant labor which changeout impose on production. All of these are costs to the basic premise of a professional shop which is to execute the contract to the specified standards in the agreed time frame. Tooling is a low cost consumable which has the risk of not selected appropriately to have a high carryover burden to process success. It is a mistake to assume a consumable item at twice the purchase cost is an increase in overhead when it very well may decrease it. Thank you for you thoughts but you are mistaken:
“”In a pro shop cost is the least important variable for tooling like this."
?
?
If this is your position - then you aren't running a business.?? Cost of frequently replaced item (overhead) is absolutely a top variable, along with labor and material cost.? It seems it's that labor cost (and how it's allocated within overhead & into the overall cost of one knife system vs.. another) that we're really disagreeing about.
?
While the initial price of a head or blades (and its tiny % of your overhead) may seem trivial - how one's choice of such absolutely impacts the business's bottom line.? Same as that cheap truck that slowly bleeds you maintenance, increased fuel costs and downtime vs. the new one that gets better gas mileage and is always ready to go.? Or any of the myriad of other capital expenditures you've made to increase your production (efficiency). ??
?
?
Why did you upgrade or buy any of your equipment ?? Because it looked good in your shop ?? No , because its cost was offset by the money it makes you.? Or doesn't.
?
?
Perhaps the gain or loss of one choice vs.another is acceptable to you , it's your choice after all. But to say that tooling cost is the least important line item is a bit naive in my view.”” - ?David Sabo
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But did you know that it only takes a minute to rotate a segment ?? That's ifin it ain't stuck to cutterhead.
Did you also know that lots of places use segmented heads ?
Did you know that the USA's #1 Tersa advocate acknowledges that a segment head might be best? .....or mighten not.
Betcha didn't know that cost isn't important to everyone.? .....................right 
Lookin more like the briar patch instead of the weeds.
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 02:21:57 PM EDT, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider. ?For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact. ?The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time. ?Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
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Your opinion matters David, thank you for sharing it.
But did you know that it only takes a minute to rotate a segment ?? That's ifin it ain't stuck to cutterhead.
Did you also know that lots of places use segmented heads ?
Did you know that the USA's #1 Tersa advocate acknowledges that a segment head might be best? .....or mighten not.
Betcha didn't know that cost isn't important to everyone.? .....................right
Lookin more like the briar patch instead of the weeds.
I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider.? For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact.? The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time.? Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
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Calling someone “Naive” is the definition of name calling.
Guys its been fun but I am out.
david sabo you are a real prick.
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Hi Thomas:
You are welcome here. And you seem the opposite of naive. I’d love for you to stay in the forum — you are in a very interesting area of manufacturing. Not many colleagues of mine are in the boat servicing industry and your mentions of
metal working sound fun too.?
There are always passionate people on forums. Some are best avoided. I’ll often write a texts to friends who participate here, as a way of venting offline about the “pricks”. Said pricks likely do the same about me!
All said, I’d love to see pictures of your shop and learn more about your work. And you mention a saw injury. Are you ok? Is there anything to be learned from it? That we all can learn?
Anyway, I hope you decide to stay.?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
[Edited Message Follows]
Oh- I’m Thomas
My shop started out with doing shipwrights/yacht carpentry I have gradually expanded into multiple capacities including stainless steel and aluminum fabrication, tig welding, machining etc.
I came to setup the shop after a long stint of carpentry and cabinet building for homes and commercial businesses.
This injury on the table saw last week has me once again bringing in new equipment and reconfiguring the shop to accommodate it.
My shop is modest in size but capable.
This Felder gear I am bringing in will make it more so.
So hello all.
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Um...no, not really.??
If I had said you were a nincompoop,? a retard, or a thin skinned coward - that would have been name calling.? Just like you're closing sentence.?
Saying your business / accounting choices lack experience, wisdom, or judgment is not name calling.?? It may sting, or you may have taken offense at it, but my intention was not to be rude or derogatory.?? Clearly , yours was.
Kinda like saying someone is ignorant.? It's often taken as an insult , but is not at it's core.? I'm completely ignorant when it comes to?Multivariable Calculus and I'm pretty sure even my Calculus Professor is ignorant when it comes to the Inter-universal Teichmüller theory. ? It's not insulting to say so.? Both of us could take the time learn the terms, concepts, and skills needed to work in those disciplines if we so chose. ?
It seems you're used to everyone bowing at your alter and going along with what you say as gospel, only to cry foul and run off when someone dissents.? Your double standard isn't helping your case.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 03:59:21 PM EDT, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
Calling someone “Naive” is the definition of name calling.
Guys its been fun but I am out.
david sabo you are a real prick.
|
Mr. Sabo,
If, as it appears, your comments are in response to my post on this topic, then I fail to understand the relevance: - I was not advocating for Tersa over Segmented, or visa versa - just pointing out that if you can’t buy replacement cutters, then the supposed advantage of one over the other may be an illusion.
- I am intimately familiar with carbide insert tooling, having written a very popular ?book on the topic: ?https://tinyurl.com/3mp56w8u
- I have owned a segmented head in a Dewalt planer, and have Tersa on my Dual 51. ?They each have their drawbacks and advantages, and I tend to see them the same way Dave Kumm does, and posted about earlier.
- My personal orientation is to buy highest quality, and only pay attention to price when the cost/benefit ration is clearly out of whack. ?So yes, I know cost isn’t important to everyone.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 15, 2023, at 12:34 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
But did you know that it only takes a minute to rotate a segment ?? That's ifin it ain't stuck to cutterhead.
Did you also know that lots of places use segmented heads ?
Did you know that the USA's #1 Tersa advocate acknowledges that a segment head might be best? .....or mighten not.
Betcha didn't know that cost isn't important to everyone.? .....................right
Lookin more like the briar patch instead of the weeds.
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 02:21:57 PM EDT, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider. ?For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact. ?The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time. ?Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
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And so, it seems to have come to this:
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
|
TRboat is gone, he unsubscribed a little bit ago, so no need to converse further. Never seen anybody come and go in one day and manage to stir such a ruckus.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 15, 2023, at 1:44 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
Um...no, not really.??
If I had said you were a nincompoop,? a retard, or a thin skinned coward - that would have been name calling.? Just like you're closing sentence.?
Saying your business / accounting choices lack experience, wisdom, or judgment is not name calling.?? It may sting, or you may have taken offense at it, but my intention was not to be rude or derogatory.?? Clearly , yours was.
Kinda like saying someone is ignorant.? It's often taken as an insult , but is not at it's core.? I'm completely ignorant when it comes to?Multivariable Calculus and I'm pretty sure even my Calculus Professor is ignorant when it comes to the Inter-universal Teichmüller theory. ? It's not insulting to say so.? Both of us could take the time learn the terms, concepts, and skills needed to work in those disciplines if we so chose. ?
It seems you're used to everyone bowing at your alter and going along with what you say as gospel, only to cry foul and run off when someone dissents.? Your double standard isn't helping your case.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 03:59:21 PM EDT, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
Calling someone “Naive” is the definition of name calling.
Guys its been fun but I am out.
david sabo you are a real prick.
|
Wasn't meant to be relevant.? It was my attempt at humor.? Failed obviously.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 04:48:04 PM EDT, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
Mr. Sabo,
If, as it appears, your comments are in response to my post on this topic, then I fail to understand the relevance: - I was not advocating for Tersa over Segmented, or visa versa - just pointing out that if you can’t buy replacement cutters, then the supposed advantage of one over the other may be an illusion.
- I am intimately familiar with carbide insert tooling, having written a very popular ?book on the topic: ?https://tinyurl.com/3mp56w8u
- I have owned a segmented head in a Dewalt planer, and have Tersa on my Dual 51. ?They each have their drawbacks and advantages, and I tend to see them the same way Dave Kumm does, and posted about earlier.
- My personal orientation is to buy highest quality, and only pay attention to price when the cost/benefit ration is clearly out of whack. ?So yes, I know cost isn’t important to everyone.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On May 15, 2023, at 12:34 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
But did you know that it only takes a minute to rotate a segment ?? That's ifin it ain't stuck to cutterhead.
Did you also know that lots of places use segmented heads ?
Did you know that the USA's #1 Tersa advocate acknowledges that a segment head might be best? .....or mighten not.
Betcha didn't know that cost isn't important to everyone.? .....................right
Lookin more like the briar patch instead of the weeds.
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 02:21:57 PM EDT, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider. ?For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact. ?The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time. ?Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
|
Hi Brian,
No worries. That’s unfortunate. I’m personally getting tired of David Sabo’s rants. They are unnecessarily partisan. Just saying.?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
TRboat is gone, he unsubscribed a little bit ago, so no need to converse further. Never seen anybody come and go in one day and manage to stir such a ruckus.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
www.lambtoolworks.com
On May 15, 2023, at 1:44 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
Um...no, not really.??
If I had said you were a nincompoop,? a retard, or a thin skinned coward - that would have been name calling.? Just like you're closing sentence.?
Saying your business / accounting choices lack
experience, wisdom, or judgment is not name calling.?? It may sting, or you may have taken offense at it, but my intention was not to be rude or derogatory.?? Clearly , yours was.
Kinda
like saying someone is ignorant.? It's often taken as an insult , but is not at it's core.? I'm completely ignorant when it comes to?Multivariable
Calculus and I'm pretty sure even my Calculus Professor is ignorant when it comes to the
Inter-universal Teichmüller theory. ? It's not insulting to say so.? Both of us could take the time learn the terms, concepts, and skills needed to work in those disciplines if we so chose. ?
It
seems you're used to everyone bowing at your alter and going along with what you say as gospel, only to cry foul and run off when someone dissents.? Your double standard isn't helping your case.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 03:59:21 PM EDT, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
Calling someone “Naive” is the definition of name calling.
Guys its been fun but I am out.
david sabo you are a real prick.
|
I’m not sure what you mean in that respect, “partisan” is a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person; according to Webster’s Dictionary. Regardless, TRboat came in with asking for recommendations and evidently didn’t like the answers he was hearing, which basically turned into a discourse about Tersa vs. Individual inserted cutter heads.?
Trboat is on Practical Machinist and he evidently sliced his hand up pretty well, you can read the thread if you desire:
| |
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
PK