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To follow up on Jason Holtz's comment,?
Depending on the kind of wood you're processing, it has been my experience that rotating the carbide elements on a helical cutter is not as simple as what's shown in the promotional videos. In my experience, processing resinous woods results in a slight accumulation of resin or schmutz on the underside of the cutter. If the cutter is simply rotated, then that resin will interfere with the precision seating necessary, resulting in lines or grooves in the wood.?
Having experienced the above issue several times, my process is now to completely back out the screw, remove the carbide cutter, clean the cutter as well as the cutter head, then carefully reinstall, making sure the cutter seats properly. This process may only occur a couple times/year (if even that), but when it happens it's a laborious, time-consuming task. As I'm approaching some more production-oriented projects, I'm giving TERSA a closer look for my next machine, as I'm struggling to find time to rotate the cutters on my Silent Power head. Not much time during the week, and I have other projects I'd rather be working on during my weekends....
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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"One Tersa carbide head is retail at 20-150$+. For my planer it’s 150$.? It takes a few minutes to turn the segmented heads. You get 4 turns before the head is worn.? You turn one carbide silent power segment, and while it may take longer. You have 4x the cutting life. Time is money yes, a silent power cutter head potentially saves 4x Tersa changes or in my case 450$ per full blade change."
?????????????????????????????????????? * * * * *
You're oversimplifying,? and erroneously calculating the time and costs.
First -? tersa knives have two sides. so you get two turns before it's ready for the trash.
2nd -? I'll bet you cannot turn (and torque !) an entire 12" + cutterhead's worth of segments in a few minutes.? No way.? Maybe an hour if you're real efficient.??? 5 min. tops on 4 tersa knives and you don't need to worry if your torque wrench is still calibrated. And it the same whether you have a 6" knife or 20" knife.
Third,? you haven't figured the cost of a full set of segments in cost per rotation.?? How much is a set ?? Divide by four for its cost of rotation in your scenario. ? ? And,? as hinted above - your Tersa cost per rotation is $225 - NOT $450 !
While you probably don't have a burdened labor cost of $225/hr either;? I'll bet it's half that at least. So now, that one hour of edge changing time starts to add up. Pretty sure when you calculate your SP segment cost per side change it's in the $75 range.? Approx 1/3 a Tersa cost.? Add in your +$125 labor cost per edge change and it's starts to get real close in cost per edge change.?? And that's assuming you get it all done in an hour.?
While I agree that a segmented head is the cheaper alternative for those hobbyist that don't change knives often - In a production environment Tersa is almost certainly the winner.? If you change your knives every quarter - Tersa has you at the end of the year.? Change them every month and it's not even close regardless of you exact labor cost.?
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And I will condition my experience.
I mill teak almost exclusively which while abrasive and hard on tooling is a freebie for tear out and planes without drama.
I have the ultra sharp HSS blade sets for when I need them but honestly I rarely do.
Carbide stays on the head pretty much all the time
Between the lathe and mills my shop is full of index tooling but when I saw the Byrd heads come out I knew I would never have one in the shop.
Far too much fiddling when a Tersa head just works (for me..).
The Felder head with fewer cutters would probably serve.
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" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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You can shift Tersa knives a slight fraction if chipped and keep from a complete swap.? I have at least 1/4" leeway on my head and if you buy the knives a tad shorter you can move them a fair amount.? Dave
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Show quoted text
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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I’m curious David, do you own a Tersa equipped machine?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
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Show quoted text
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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Used to.??? Sold it on.
Am not running a production environment anymore either.? My current jointers & planers have straight knives, dispoz-a-blade and a Byrd.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 11:33:48 AM EDT, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
I’m curious David, do you own a Tersa equipped machine?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
"
Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments
is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're
losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber;
segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's
of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
|
Oh- I’m Thomas
My shop started out with doing shipwrights/yacht carpentry I have gradually expanded into multiple capacities including stainless steel and aluminum fabrication, tig welding, machining etc.
I came to setup the shop after a long stint of carpentry and cabinet building for homes and commercial businesses.
This injury on the table saw last week has me once again bringing in new equipment and reconfiguring the shop to accommodate it.
My shop is modest in size but capable.
This Felder gear I am bringing in will make it more so.
So hello all.
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I didn’t “come around” to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You’ve only gone ahead and proven that it’s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn’t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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Don't think it's a push at best.? From a total cost perspective it could be a clear winner.? It could also be a clear loser.? Like you said, it depends on the circumstances.? Which,? in this case is lots of teak with frequent knife changes.
Plenty of large scale facilities using plain straight knives too.? What's your point ?
Sam's piece / opinion doesn't really re-enforce your position.? He hedges by saying "probably" for each type of head and and shop.? Plus he doesn't broach the cost of either head, ever.? So it's really impossible to use his musings in a discussion on? "which is cheaper". ??
Furthermore - I? NEVER said segments only belong in a garage shop - nor is it my opinion.? Let's look at what I actually said:
" So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or
shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper
because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor
of segments adds to the equation."
I said segments will be CHEAPER for the garage shop because they are less likely to change blades and approach the cost savings in labor that Tersa affords.?? That's a big difference from saying it only belongs in a garage shop.? HUGE.?
It's a pretty simple math problem.?? The more you change blades and the higher your labor costs are , the cheaper Tersa becomes.? The less you change blades and the cheaper your labor is , the cheaper a Segment is.? This is true whether you're in a garage in rural Mississippi or a state of the art factory in California.
Another way to look at it to ask yourself why production lines of all types want to automate and replace humans with machines pretty much everywhere they can ?? Not because it's cool, but because it's cheaper at the end of the day.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 12:03:53 PM EDT, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
I didn’t “come around” to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You’ve only gone ahead and proven that it’s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn’t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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My Tersa is bigger than your Tersa.
David Best - via mobile phone
David Best - via mobile phone
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Guys- take it outside.
In a pro shop cost is the least important variable for tooling like this.
The total system has to work for the material processing actually done and that fit will vary a great deal over application and shops.
There is a place for most professional grade systems, one is not universally?best.
One additional thing for the machinery I am looking for.
In my shop aluminum and plastics get run on the saw and J/P.
I’d be interested to hear how folks with similar needs are faring with the Felder index heads.
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Next time I am tempted to write, I think I will ask the three Dave’s to review prior to pushing send.
Well reasoned and insightful, David S.
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On May 15, 2023, at 11:41 AM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
?
Don't think it's a push at best.? From a total cost perspective it could be a clear winner.? It could also be a clear loser.? Like you said, it depends on the circumstances.? Which,? in this case is lots of teak with frequent knife changes.
Plenty of large scale facilities using plain straight knives too.? What's your point ?
Sam's piece / opinion doesn't really re-enforce your position.? He hedges by saying "probably" for each type of head and and shop.? Plus he doesn't broach the cost of either head, ever.? So it's really impossible to use his musings in a discussion on? "which is cheaper". ??
Furthermore - I? NEVER said segments only belong in a garage shop - nor is it my opinion.? Let's look at what I actually said:
" So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or
shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper
because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor
of segments adds to the equation."
I said segments will be CHEAPER for the garage shop because they are less likely to change blades and approach the cost savings in labor that Tersa affords.?? That's a big difference from saying it only belongs in a garage shop.? HUGE.?
It's a pretty simple math problem.?? The more you change blades and the higher your labor costs are , the cheaper Tersa becomes.? The less you change blades and the cheaper your labor is , the cheaper a Segment is.? This is true whether you're in a garage in rural Mississippi or a state of the art factory in California.
Another way to look at it to ask yourself why production lines of all types want to automate and replace humans with machines pretty much everywhere they can ?? Not because it's cool, but because it's cheaper at the end of the day.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 12:03:53 PM EDT, Andy <andy.raynor08@...> wrote:
I didn’t “come around” to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You’ve only gone ahead and proven that it’s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn’t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
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What nobody has factored into the cost equation is how many tersa blades you can purchase for the option cost on the insert cutterhead.? Isn't it a couple thousand dollar option? Dave Davies
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 12:18?PM Mike Leiferman < leiferman@...> wrote: Next time I am tempted to write, I think I will ask the three Dave’s to review prior to pushing send.
Well reasoned and insightful, David S.
Mike ?
Don't think it's a push at best.? From a total cost perspective it could be a clear winner.? It could also be a clear loser.? Like you said, it depends on the circumstances.? Which,? in this case is lots of teak with frequent knife changes.
Plenty of large scale facilities using plain straight knives too.? What's your point ?
Sam's piece / opinion doesn't really re-enforce your position.? He hedges by saying "probably" for each type of head and and shop.? Plus he doesn't broach the cost of either head, ever.? So it's really impossible to use his musings in a discussion on? "which is cheaper". ??
Furthermore - I? NEVER said segments only belong in a garage shop - nor is it my opinion.? Let's look at what I actually said:
" So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or
shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper
because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor
of segments adds to the equation."
I said segments will be CHEAPER for the garage shop because they are less likely to change blades and approach the cost savings in labor that Tersa affords.?? That's a big difference from saying it only belongs in a garage shop.? HUGE.?
It's a pretty simple math problem.?? The more you change blades and the higher your labor costs are , the cheaper Tersa becomes.? The less you change blades and the cheaper your labor is , the cheaper a Segment is.? This is true whether you're in a garage in rural Mississippi or a state of the art factory in California.
Another way to look at it to ask yourself why production lines of all types want to automate and replace humans with machines pretty much everywhere they can ?? Not because it's cool, but because it's cheaper at the end of the day.
D
I didn’t “come around” to your line of thinking. I challenged your assertion that Tersa is less expensive. You’ve only gone ahead and proven that it’s probably a push, from a cost perspective, unless under very specific?circumstances.
Also there are plenty of large scale production facilities that use segmented heads.?
Sam Blasco, noted Tersa advocate seems to take the exact opposite position as you. In the first paragraph of this article, he suggested that in fact Tersa belongs in an artisan shop, whereas Xylent belongs in production.?
He goes on to gush about Tersa and all of its benefits, however the idea the segmented cutter heads belong in the garage only is just your opinion and one that even the self proclaimed Tersa aficionado Sam Blasco doesn’t share.?
" Yep. There are lots of ways to view it. Both options are
great. I just don’t think one is more cost effective than the other. I
can just turn one carbide segment if it gets chipped, Tersa is a quicker
wholesale swap."
Now that you've come round to realizing Tersa is a quicker swap-? it should make what I said earlier (or tried to) about Tersa being? cheaper the more you change your cutters pretty obvious. Your cutter edge savings with segments is pretty quickly eroded the more you swap edges because of the time suck involved in rotating an entire heads' worth of them.
And you don't have an option for questionable material with segments.? You run it and deal with the consequences.?
Yes, both are great options.? But I still stand my my original supposition that Tersa will be better /cheaper if you are in a production environment and frequently changing blades.?? Turning "one segment" is not where you're losing money.
? It's the turning of 50 to 100 of them !? The more often that occurs, the more the scale is tilted to Tersa.?? So? I'll re-iterate.......if you're a well healed garage warrior, or shop that occasionally process solid timber; segments will be cheaper because you likely won't reach the break even point the changeover labor of segments adds to the equation.?? Even cheaper than that will be reg. ol straight knives if you only change them once every 5-10 years.? Someone milling 1000's of board feet a week or month and changing blades frequently certainly should pay attention to how long a changeover is costing.? No money is being made while the machine is idle.
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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"In a pro shop cost is the least important variable for tooling like this."
If this is your position - then you aren't running a business.?? Cost of frequently replaced item (overhead) is absolutely a top variable, along with labor and material cost.? It seems it's that labor cost (and how it's allocated within overhead & into the overall cost of one knife system vs.. another) that we're really disagreeing about.
While the initial price of a head or blades (and its tiny % of your overhead) may seem trivial - how one's choice of such absolutely impacts the business's bottom line.? Same as that cheap truck that slowly bleeds you maintenance, increased fuel costs and downtime vs. the new one that gets better gas mileage and is always ready to go.? Or any of the myriad of other capital expenditures you've made to increase your production (efficiency). ?
Why did you upgrade or buy any of your equipment ?? Because it looked good in your shop ?? No , because its cost was offset by the money it makes you.? Or doesn't.
Perhaps the gain or loss of one choice vs.another is acceptable to you , it's your choice after all. But to say that tooling cost is the least important line item is a bit naive in my view.
D
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Also, if your tersa knives get a knick you can slide one knife over a little and correct the problem. ?It usually took longer to move things off the top of the planer than it did to slide the knife over and turn the machine back on.
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On May 15, 2023, at 10:52 AM, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
?And I will condition my experience.
I mill teak almost exclusively which while abrasive and hard on tooling is a freebie for tear out and planes without drama.
I have the ultra sharp HSS blade sets for when I need them but honestly I rarely do.
Carbide stays on the head pretty much all the time
Between the lathe and mills my shop is full of index tooling but when I saw the Byrd heads come out I knew I would never have one in the shop.
Far too much fiddling when a Tersa head just works (for me..).
The Felder head with fewer cutters would probably serve.
|
Now we're really gonna get into the weeds.? a Tersa head isn't free either.? And might even be the most expensive purchase option initially.? Depends on where it's sourced.? SCMi is prob. cheaper than Felder, and both likely cheaper than sourcing one on your own.
Right now, a SilentPower head on a 16" Hammer combo J/P is less than $200 over their self aligning blade system.? And you can have it delivered today.? Don't know what the Tersa option adds or subtracts or how long the wait would be for it to be made.? I think it's safe to say a Tersa will be more money in this scenario.
A 12" head directly from Tersa is roughly $2750 these days.
But if we're talking about a F4 Dual 51...........................I have no idea what the SP option runs on that.? I think it safe to say it's not going to be $200.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
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The design of the machine itself is also a factor in the comparison.? My experience is that insert heads are well suited to the hammer type and other machines that run smaller diameter heads and lack chipbreakers or pressure bars and good hold down rollers.?
Tersa are wonderful with 5" diameter heads on a heavy stout machine.? I'd want Tersa on a Format, Martin, L'Invincible or Panhans type machine but not on a lower end one.? Others will have to speak of the 700 build as I'm not familiar enough with the design
to guess on a choice.? Dave
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Now we're really gonna get into the weeds.? a Tersa head isn't free either.? And might even be the most expensive purchase option initially.? Depends on where it's sourced.? SCMi is prob. cheaper than Felder, and both likely
cheaper than sourcing one on your own.
Right now, a SilentPower head on a 16" Hammer combo J/P is less than $200 over their self aligning blade system.? And you can have it delivered today.? Don't know what the Tersa option adds or subtracts or how long the wait
would be for it to be made.? I think it's safe to say a Tersa will be more money in this scenario.
A 12" head directly from Tersa is roughly $2750 these days.
But if we're talking about a F4 Dual 51...........................I have no idea what the SP option runs on that.? I think it safe to say it's not going to be $200.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
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I’d suggest you take a break from posting on forums until such time as you can listen to the experience of others without name calling. In my business cost is always the least important variable. It is a distant third for my clientele being upstaged by the quality of the work and the timeframes in which the work is executed. In my shop of primary importance is that the machine, process or tooling is capable of executing the work. Second to basic functionality is process speed. Third is duty cycle and the attendant labor which changeout impose on production. All of these are costs to the basic premise of a professional shop which is to execute the contract to the specified standards in the agreed time frame. Tooling is a low cost consumable which has the risk of not selected appropriately to have a high carryover burden to process success. It is a mistake to assume a consumable item at twice the purchase cost is an increase in overhead when it very well may decrease it. Thank you for you thoughts but you are mistaken:
“”In a pro shop cost is the least important variable for tooling like this."
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If this is your position - then you aren't running a business.?? Cost of frequently replaced item (overhead) is absolutely a top variable, along with labor and material cost.? It seems it's that labor cost (and how it's allocated within overhead & into the overall cost of one knife system vs.. another) that we're really disagreeing about.
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While the initial price of a head or blades (and its tiny % of your overhead) may seem trivial - how one's choice of such absolutely impacts the business's bottom line.? Same as that cheap truck that slowly bleeds you maintenance, increased fuel costs and downtime vs. the new one that gets better gas mileage and is always ready to go.? Or any of the myriad of other capital expenditures you've made to increase your production (efficiency). ??
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Why did you upgrade or buy any of your equipment ?? Because it looked good in your shop ?? No , because its cost was offset by the money it makes you.? Or doesn't.
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Perhaps the gain or loss of one choice vs.another is acceptable to you , it's your choice after all. But to say that tooling cost is the least important line item is a bit naive in my view.””
-?David Sabo
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I like going into the weeds, so let me also add an additional factor to consider. ?For a number of years, the knives for the Tersa head were patient protected and thus available from few suppliers (like one) and the pricing reflected that fact. ?The Tersa patient has expired, availability is now close to commodity status (available on Amazon even), the inflation-adjusted prices have come down a bit, and newer versions of the knives have emerged with different steel alloys. ?
In contrast, the carbide insert on the Felder SilentPower head is proprietary to Felder, only available from them, and about a month ago someone on here was trying to find replacements and being told they are out of stock in both USA and Austria with an expected 4-6 week lead time. ?Personally, I try to avoid sole-sourced consumable dependency. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On May 15, 2023, at 10:59 AM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
Now we're really gonna get into the weeds.? a Tersa head isn't free either.? And might even be the most expensive purchase option initially.? Depends on where it's sourced.? SCMi is prob. cheaper than Felder, and both likely cheaper than sourcing one on your own.
Right now, a SilentPower head on a 16" Hammer combo J/P is less than $200 over their self aligning blade system.? And you can have it delivered today.? Don't know what the Tersa option adds or subtracts or how long the wait would be for it to be made.? I think it's safe to say a Tersa will be more money in this scenario.
A 12" head directly from Tersa is roughly $2750 these days.
But if we're talking about a F4 Dual 51...........................I have no idea what the SP option runs on that.? I think it safe to say it's not going to be $200.
D
On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 01:23:01 PM EDT, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
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Tom Gensmer
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
