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I'm following up on some research from a while back on dust collection ducting.?
A while back, one user here shared that"blastgateco.com has the very same ducting as Norfab at lease 35% less expensive." I see that there are four different product lines for the piping: CT pipe (the least expensive) and "heavy duty" ducting in five gauges: 12, 14, 16 and 18. I will most likely be getting the Clearvue CV1800 unit, with a 6" main duct and 4" drops. The unit will service five machines in a 25 x 20 foot area (with possibilities of reaching out to two other corners of the shop). The machines are a 20" jointer, KF 700, a 15" planer, a 19-39 Supermax sander and a SawStop table saw. Can anyone advise on what guage ducting to buy? (There's also the less expensive option of pvc sewer pipe, but I don't much like the look of it.)?
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I have CT and been very happy with it throughout my shop. Blast Gate has been great to work with.
Thanks,
Chris Perren
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On Jan 17, 2021, at 10:02 PM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
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Acharya,
I can offer just a data point. My basic 5” spiral pipe (not clamp type) from Rockler is 24ga. I have no concerns that it will collapse under negative pressure and is plenty sturdy otherwise. Their 6” pipe is also 24ga. The larger the dia heavier the ga. I am not sure how long a section is of the clamped pipe you are considering and how close or afar are the hanging supports on it.
Imran?
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On Jan 17, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote: ?I'm following up on some research from a while back on dust collection ducting.?
A while back, one user here shared that"blastgateco.com has the very same ducting as Norfab at lease 35% less expensive." I see that there are four different product lines for the piping: CT pipe (the least expensive) and "heavy duty" ducting in five gauges: 12, 14, 16 and 18. I will most likely be getting the Clearvue CV1800 unit, with a 6" main duct and 4" drops. The unit will service five machines in a 25 x 20 foot area (with possibilities of reaching out to two other corners of the shop). The machines are a 20" jointer, KF 700, a 15" planer, a 19-39 Supermax sander and a SawStop table saw. Can anyone advise on what guage ducting to buy? (There's also the less expensive option of pvc sewer pipe, but I don't much like the look of it.)?
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i know this isn't the advice you asked for but if going the CV route, consider the max and 7" mains with 5" or 6" drops.? You are running some decent sized equipment and the performance will be much better with a larger system.? The CV will add only about $250
and the pipe cost will likely increase another 250+ but well worth it.? 4" drops are a bed idea even with the 1800 but the 16" blade on the max will really pull cfm and either the 7" or 8" reducing to 7" down the line will increase cfm.? DC is all about reducing
the size of the dust envelope around the machine when in use and cfm is the best answer.?
Even if you stay with your original duct plan, for 250 you hedge against the downside with the Max.? If you guess wrong, the upcharge is much less than replacing the blower and cyclone.?? Dave
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I'm following up on some research from a while back on dust collection ducting.?
A while back, one user here shared that"blastgateco.com has the very same ducting as Norfab at lease 35% less expensive." I see that there are four different product lines for the piping: CT pipe (the least expensive) and "heavy duty" ducting in five gauges:
12, 14, 16 and 18. I will most likely be getting the Clearvue CV1800 unit, with a 6" main duct and 4" drops. The unit will service five machines in a 25 x 20 foot area (with possibilities of reaching out to two other corners of the shop). The machines are
a 20" jointer, KF 700, a 15" planer, a 19-39 Supermax sander and a SawStop table saw. Can anyone advise on what guage ducting to buy? (There's also the less expensive option of pvc sewer pipe, but I don't much like the look of it.)?
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Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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I have pneumatic gates and like them a lot but they aren't a high priority.? You do want a gate at every machine.? You may find you can leave a smaller gate open downstream to add flow to the main but usually a 5 hp and under system doesn't have enough cfm
to allow for many ports to remain open.? Gates do restrict flow which is why I don't use 4" much.? Dave
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Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which) the automated gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
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Main size depends on your layout.? A 7" main might be proper or 8" to the first machine and then drop to 7".? The CV people might help if you give them your stuff.? The only 4" flex I use is for the overarm saw guard.? Everything else gets 5 or 6" depending
on machine and port size.? Flex is a cfm killer so avoid it as much as possible.?
Others here have lots of experience with electric gates.? Mine were custom made by a local small business guy ( kind of like Mac and Brian ) who is now retired so go with advice from others.? Dave
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So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which) the automated
gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
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I love the cvmax and have never been able to choke it, even sucking up piles of sawdust bins that got knocked over. However, I have found that filling the drop hose and subsequently pushing larger particles to the filters causes them the clog quickly and derate the whole setup until they are cleaned up and blown out. Someday I may fix that with a rotalock, maybe.
The pipe system is 8"main dwv pvc with 6" drops to distribution boxes. I started with the 6-to-2 4" boxes from clearvue and they work great. I had aspirations to go automated but keeping things centralized in the power triangle setup for my new Felder tools has not really been a problem. I did put the 4" ivac auto blast gate on the cnc branch but wired the switch down by the computer for easy on/off just by plugging in the headphone jack, and it's much more reliable and cheap than the remotes I have to click multiple times to overcome shop radio interferences. Photos attached for reference.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 1:56 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Main size depends on your layout.? A 7" main might be proper or 8" to the first machine and then drop to 7".? The CV people might help if you give them your stuff.? The only 4" flex I use is for the overarm saw guard.? Everything else gets 5 or 6" depending
on machine and port size.? Flex is a cfm killer so avoid it as much as possible.?
Others here have lots of experience with electric gates.? Mine were custom made by a local small business guy ( kind of like Mac and Brian ) who is now retired so go with advice from others.? Dave
So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which) the automated
gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
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Brett:
That’s a fantastic work space. I love seeing pictures of others’ shops. Your ceiling looks nice and high, and there’s a hefty steel beam for lifting, etc.?
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On 19 Jan 2021, at 6:08 am, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
? I love the cvmax and have never been able to choke it, even sucking up piles of sawdust bins that got knocked over. However, I have found that filling the drop hose and subsequently pushing larger particles to the filters causes them the clog quickly and derate the whole setup until they are cleaned up and blown out. Someday I may fix that with a rotalock, maybe.
The pipe system is 8"main dwv pvc with 6" drops to distribution boxes. I started with the 6-to-2 4" boxes from clearvue and they work great. I had aspirations to go automated but keeping things centralized in the power triangle setup for my new Felder tools has not really been a problem. I did put the 4" ivac auto blast gate on the cnc branch but wired the switch down by the computer for easy on/off just by plugging in the headphone jack, and it's much more reliable and cheap than the remotes I have to click multiple times to overcome shop radio interferences. Photos attached for reference.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 1:56 PM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Main size depends on your layout.? A 7" main might be proper or 8" to the first machine and then drop to 7".? The CV people might help if you give them your stuff.? The only 4" flex I use is for the overarm saw guard.? Everything else gets 5 or 6" depending
on machine and port size.? Flex is a cfm killer so avoid it as much as possible.?
Others here have lots of experience with electric gates.? Mine were custom made by a local small business guy ( kind of like Mac and Brian ) who is now retired so go with advice from others.? Dave
So, run 8" main line with 6" drops... . Then four or five inch flex hose to the machines (depending on machine ports I suppose). If I go with? automated gates, since don't have to be within reach (as they do if they are manually operated--which) the automated
gates could be on the 6 inch. Sound right??
This is one type of automated gate that I discovered:
iVac 4" Automated Blast Gate :
It is electric.
<20210118_135704.jpg> <20210118_135728.jpg> <20210118_140519.jpg>
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I have been very happy with my Ecogate automatic blast gates and controller. ?Plenty of information here including some videos toward the end of the album that discuss the Ecogate controller and the sensor for the machines: ?? The schematic diagram details how I transition from imperial pipe to blast gate to metric flex hose.
I have four left over NIB 4” Ecogate blast gates if you’re interested. ?DM me if you are.
David Best david@...https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/albums https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami < kumar@...> wrote:
Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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Hi Acharya, am also looking at finalizing the layout and specs for a DC system using Oneida with "sewer" pipes for the main feeds as thought perhaps the PVC pipes would be easier to work with and install so don't necessarily dismiss it for appearances sake ;).? Also, did you look at the Oneida personal and professional lineup of DC systems?
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I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ? David Best - Sent from my iPad
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On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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I have a Clearview, not the max but the standard one with a 5 hp motor.? I used 6” sewer and drain pvc pipe for mine since the thinner wall give me 1 square inch more cross section area.? It will suck up a 16’ tape measure real nice!? I use manual blast gates from Clearview.? I am a hobbyist so it is not important to have an automatic system.? I do run as close to the machine as I can, then use 6” flex hose and a furnace pipe reducer to get to the 4” or 5” machine openings.? I found that by using the large hose clamps (bought from Menards in the plumbing department) with a wood spacer from the wall or ceiling I can drill a hole in the band clamp to fasten it to the spacer block with a dry wall screw and then tighten the band screw around the pvc.? It is reasonable priced and works well to support the pipe and go around the fittings too.? I attached a picture, but am not sure if it will post. ? Kim ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of KRPatel via groups.io Sent: Monday, January 18, 2021 5:05 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Clamp-Together pipe for dust collection #dustcollection ? Hi Acharya, am also looking at finalizing the layout and specs for a DC system using Oneida with "sewer" pipes for the main feeds as thought perhaps the PVC pipes would be easier to work with and install so don't necessarily dismiss it for appearances sake ;).? Also, did you look at the Oneida personal and professional lineup of DC systems?
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On the subject of dust collecting, I have quite a bit of 4’’ spiral pipe if anyone is interested. If I remember right, Archarya is in Hawaii, so that’s probably not going to work to get it to him.
Is there any harm in sizing up ducts even if you don’t need it? I did some calculating and figured I needed a 6’’ line but I have 7’’ and 8’’ pipe on hand so figured I’d use that. I picked up a dust gorilla cyclone at an auction and it has an 8’’ entry, so I need to get to 8’’ at some point.
Bird Cupps
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I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ? David Best - Sent from my iPad On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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I will look more into Oneida. Thank you.
In general, all this input has been super helpful. Thanks to you all!
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Bird,
The risk of going too big is drop in air speed required to carry chips. IIRC, 4000 ft/min is the goal for the main duct.
So in designing the DC system one is trying to minimize the overall resistance so that adequate CFM is available at the machine while ensuring that the air speed does not drop below minimum requirement.
Imran
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On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:32 PM, Bird Cupps <birdc@...> wrote: ? On the subject of dust collecting, I have quite a bit of 4’’ spiral pipe if anyone is interested. If I remember right, Archarya is in Hawaii, so that’s probably not going to work to get it to him.
Is there any harm in sizing up ducts even if you don’t need it? I did some calculating and figured I needed a 6’’ line but I have 7’’ and 8’’ pipe on hand so figured I’d use that. I picked up a dust gorilla cyclone at an auction and it has an 8’’ entry, so I need to get to 8’’ at some point.
Bird Cupps Mount Horeb, Wisconsin
I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ? David Best - Sent from my iPad On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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I think that generally the 4000 fpm is vertical speed and 3500 is horiizontal.? Another key is to generate the proper velocity into the cyclone inlet to maximize the separation and protect the filters.? Each cyclone has a range for inlet speed that should be
designed into the system.
The Oneida system that is interesting is the smart system which speeds up the impeller to produce more air under pressure.? I think John here has one.? Oneida uses a good quality Baldor motor with a larger frame than CV but their regular 5 hp systems run a
15" impeller similar to the CV 1800.? The Max boosts that with a 16" impeller.? I don't know if CV went to a larger frame motor on their metal cyclone.? The weight of the motor on their 1800 and max was a limiting factor and why they went with a smaller frame.?
A DC motor works hard and given a choice, I'd prefer the larger bearings and shaft but then I like the CV cyclone design better than oneidas. Oneida uses a cast AL impeller, CV uses steel.? Filters are also rated for cfm per sq ft so you need to pay attention
to that.? CFM at the pressure your system runs at is what I consider most important.? Filtration quality of spun bond, Nano, or HEPA differs but it is the air that doesn't make it to the filters that hurts you.? The filters that minimize pressure drop and
maximize cfm beat filters that are a point or two higher in MERV rating IMO.?
Most important, don't take my opinion, do your own research.
Dave
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Bird,
The risk of going too big is drop in air speed required to carry chips. IIRC, 4000 ft/min is the goal for the main duct.
So in designing the DC system one is trying to minimize the overall resistance so that adequate CFM is available at the machine while ensuring that the air speed does not drop below minimum requirement.
Imran
On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:32 PM, Bird Cupps <birdc@...> wrote:
?
On the subject of dust collecting, I have quite a bit of 4’’ spiral pipe if anyone is interested. If I remember right, Archarya is in Hawaii, so that’s probably not going to work to get it to him.
Is there any harm in sizing up ducts even if you don’t need it? I did some calculating and figured I needed a 6’’ line but I have 7’’ and 8’’ pipe on hand so figured I’d use that. I picked up a dust gorilla cyclone at an auction and it has an 8’’ entry, so
I need to get to 8’’ at some point.
Bird Cupps
Mount Horeb, Wisconsin
I have been extremely happy with my Ecogate blast gates and controller. ?Info here: ?
David Best - Sent from my iPad
On Jan 18, 2021, at 10:59 AM, Acharya Kumarnathaswami <kumar@...> wrote:
?Thank you for that, Dave. I'm glad you jumped in. The CVMAX looks more like what folks here had described earlier, with the 8" main line and 6" drops. Somehow I had gotten off track.?
A related issue I'm wondering about is automated blast gates, whether they are worth the expense and all, and whether a gate is needed on every machine.
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A couple of observations. One, don't buy anything at Rockler if you can get it elsewhere. Their pricing on most things is ridiculous, hardware in particular.
As someone else noted, you've got quite a bit of equipment for that CV system. We had the CV Max in our shop for a few years, connected the jointer, planer, chop saw, lathe, KF700. It used to be connected to the widebelt?sander, but it hates fine dust. For the record I hated that collector. It's too expensive to require a full day to assemble the stupid thing, before you can install it. The filter's pleats are way too small. They get clogged with dust too quickly and then you loose?effective suction. When it's mounted on a wall, you can't access the filter on the back side to knock the stuff loose either. I was glad to see it go, and I suppose it was poetic justice when it fell off the forklift and the cone shattered into a million pieces. Too bad I had to buy a new one since I'd already sold the damn thing.
I've been much happier with the 4 Oneida products we've had in the shop. Our current 15 HP is more than adequate for our entire shop.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Jason,
Generally I agree but for where I live, Rockler had the best price for the gauge offered for the spiral pipe and many fittings.
Imran
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On Jan 19, 2021, at 12:31 AM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? A couple of observations. One, don't buy anything at Rockler if you can get it elsewhere. Their pricing on most things is ridiculous, hardware in particular.
As someone else noted, you've got quite a bit of equipment for that CV system. We had the CV Max in our shop for a few years, connected the jointer, planer, chop saw, lathe, KF700. It used to be connected to the widebelt?sander, but it hates fine dust. For the record I hated that collector. It's too expensive to require a full day to assemble the stupid thing, before you can install it. The filter's pleats are way too small. They get clogged with dust too quickly and then you loose?effective suction. When it's mounted on a wall, you can't access the filter on the back side to knock the stuff loose either. I was glad to see it go, and I suppose it was poetic justice when it fell off the forklift and the cone shattered into a million pieces. Too bad I had to buy a new one since I'd already sold the damn thing.
I've been much happier with the 4 Oneida products we've had in the shop. Our current 15 HP is more than adequate for our entire shop.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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imran
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
Jason Holtz