Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Working range on an A3-31 is dependent on the material you are jointing and planing. On any slider you typically double the length of the slider and add 24" to get the minimal working distance. As far as slider width its also dependent on the width of material being worked with. As an example I have a K700S with 126" slider/49" rip capacity and its allowed/needed working area is 26' by 13' because of the material I routinely deal with including sheet goods and hardwood lumber. A combo machine with 79" slider and a 31"rip fence would IMHO need at least approx 18' x 11" if you were working with sheet goods.?
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Only 6 hours driving from Montreal to Felder Mississauga show room :)
James
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Only 6 hours driving from Montreal to Felder Mississauga show room :)
James
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Thanks for the detailed explanation! Well explained and logical. Now I am second guessing my "need" for a shaper, unfortunately, this mean that I would need to keep my router table.
I am unfortunately very limited on space right now, hence my interest in the C-3. I am even probably going to get a bigger slider than what can fit in my current garage (I can always open the garage door when needed).?
We dont have a show room in Montreal, so I will have to visit a local owner to get a better feel of the machine size and see how I can make it fit.
How much bigger is a A3+K3 vs a C3? They show the dimensions in the catalog but there are no details about the "working" range.
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
I agree with Edward here. ? If the choice is between a saw and no shaper, and a saw/shaper combination, get the latter. ? It¡¯s the cheapest way to have shaper capability and enhances resale value of the machine. ? The disadvantage of a saw/shaper combination, compared to separate saw and shaper, is setup time - it¡¯s more convenient to leave the shaper set up for common operations than it is to have to always tear down a shaper setup just to cut another stile or rail for a door frame on the saw.
As to Alain Pilon¡¯s question on the utility of a shaper versus router table, if you plan to make kitchen cabinets that have frame & panel doors, I think you¡¯d find a shaper cope & stick cutter set and panel raiser cutter far superior to the equivalent on a router table. ? While a shaper can be a dangerous machine in the wrong hands, a 4¡± diameter panel raising cutter on a router table is just as dangerous in the same hands IMO. ? Tis true that shaper cutters can be an expensive venue, especially if you like to collect tools. ? Hopefully the new Rangate Cuttershare program will give users a lower entry cost to experience the full potential of a shaper - especially for the occasional project that calls out for shaper capability. ? Additionally, Alain, if you plan to make furniture with more traditional joinery like mortise/tenon, bridle joints, mitered corner legs & columns, a shaper can offer a more effective and straight forward workflow compared to cutting the same joinery on a saw. ??
David Best
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Despite the challenges, I¡¯d rather have a combo then no shaper. You can always add a stand alone unit later and migrate the accessories and tooling. The upgrade charge to add the shaper to a saw is far less than a stand alone. For me, it¡¯s money well spent.?
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
True about power feeder. I regret getting the 4 wheel F-48, too heavy to lift and lower it, a workout every time.
Unless you get gas assisted lifting bracket, get a 3 wheel power feeder.
James
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I was literally typing the same thing as this email came though. I¡¯d also add that changeover includes lifting the power feeder. Trivial when used with a gas assisted lifting bracket and a standard feeder. But almost impossible with a Comatic Smart Stand. I¡¯m currently looking at building a roll away cart to mount the feeder/stand, which then docks and mounts to the F rail during use. I¡¯ll likely use it to house the shaper hood as well.
Despite the challenges, I¡¯d rather have a combo then no shaper. You can always add a stand alone unit later and migrate the accessories and tooling. The upgrade charge to add the shaper to a saw is far less than a stand alone. For me, it¡¯s money well spent.?
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It is the change over between saw and shaper, it is doable, but not easy / trivial as J/P change over.
The shaper stock fence is heavy too. And if you have Aigner shaper fence, it is even heavier.
Saw/shaper combo is just cumbersome.
A dedicated shaper makes life much easier. And of course, automatic shaper like Felder Format 4 profile is tool porn.
James
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Well explained and logical. Now I am second guessing my "need" for a shaper, unfortunately, this mean that I would need to keep my router table.
I am unfortunately very limited on space right now, hence my interest in the C-3. I am even probably going to get a bigger slider than what can fit in my current garage (I can always open the garage door when needed).?
We dont have a show room in Montreal, so I will have to visit a local owner to get a better feel of the machine size and see how I can make it fit.
How much bigger is a A3+K3 vs a C3? They show the dimensions in the catalog but there are no details about the "working" range.
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 10:39 AM, murkyd@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
In cutting any material effectively, a critical aspect is the speed the cutting edge, usually referenced in SFM -- Surface Feet per Minute.? Very roughly speaking, woodworking requires around 5,000 SFM.? For rotating tools, this means proper RPM is related to tool diameter.? A 3/4" router bit needs ~25,000 rpm; a 4" shaper bit needs ~5,000 rpm.? ?So even high shaper speed of 10,000 rpm is way too slow for small bits.? A 3/8" router bit at 10k rpm is hitting less than 1,000 SFM.?
As you'll remember from high school physics or just know from intuitive experience, the energy (force, momentum) of a rotating mass is proportional to the speed and amount of mass (weight), but it's not a linear proportionality.? Driving your car through a given curve at 60 mph has a lot more than twice the energy of going 30 mph.
A 4" shaper bit that weighs several pounds moving at 7,500 rpm has ~20 times the energy of a 1/2" bit running at 30,000 rpm.? ?These are forces that are basically impossible to "manhandle".
An accident with a 1/2" bit in a router table might take the tip of your finger off.? A shaper accident might take several fingers or your entire hand in an instant.
Basically, a shaper should be used with a power feeder.
The only reason to buy a combo is being very tight on space.? If you have enough space, buy a saw and J/P and no shaper.? ?Someday if you find you really have a use for a shaper, buy one then.
Mark
? ??
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
I was literally typing the same thing as this email came though. I¡¯d also add that changeover includes lifting the power feeder. Trivial when used with a gas assisted lifting bracket and a standard feeder. But almost impossible with a Comatic Smart Stand. I¡¯m currently looking at building a roll away cart to mount the feeder/stand, which then docks and mounts to the F rail during use. I¡¯ll likely use it to house the shaper hood as well.
Despite the challenges, I¡¯d rather have a combo then no shaper. You can always add a stand alone unit later and migrate the accessories and tooling. The upgrade charge to add the shaper to a saw is far less than a stand alone. For me, it¡¯s money well spent.?
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On Jan 10, 2018, at 12:51 PM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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It is the change over between saw and shaper, it is doable, but not easy / trivial as J/P change over.
The shaper stock fence is heavy too. And if you have Aigner shaper fence, it is even heavier.
Saw/shaper combo is just cumbersome.
A dedicated shaper makes life much easier. And of course, automatic shaper like Felder Format 4 profile is tool porn.
James
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
It is the change over between saw and shaper, it is doable, but not easy / trivial as J/P change over.
The shaper stock fence is heavy too. And if you have Aigner shaper fence, it is even heavier.
Saw/shaper combo is just cumbersome.
A dedicated shaper makes life much easier. And of course, automatic shaper like Felder Format 4 profile is tool porn.
James
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 12:17 PM, vnh84@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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I am curious to learn more about the compromises of having a saw-shaper combination machine.? Aside from Felder's video of the CF 741 SP, there isn't many video that I can find regarding the usage of the shaper in a 2-function machine, especially with the KF 700 SP.? The Rangate referenced in this thread is my new watch list to learn more about shaper.??
SW
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
I am curious to learn more about the compromises of having a saw-shaper combination machine.? Aside from Felder's video of the CF 741 SP, there isn't many video that I can find regarding the usage of the shaper in a 2-function machine, especially with the KF 700 SP.? The Rangate referenced in this thread is my new watch list to learn more about shaper.??
SW
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Very well said.
Shaper is very versatile, useful and dangerous machine. I have KF700sp, it is a compromise. If I had space, I would definitely buy a separate shaper.?
If space and money are not the issue, at least buy the Felder F700 shaper, so you do not have to upgrade in a few years.
James
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 10:39 AM, murkyd@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
In cutting any material effectively, a critical aspect is the speed the cutting edge, usually referenced in SFM -- Surface Feet per Minute.? Very roughly speaking, woodworking requires around 5,000 SFM.? For rotating tools, this means proper RPM is related to tool diameter.? A 3/4" router bit needs ~25,000 rpm; a 4" shaper bit needs ~5,000 rpm.? ?So even high shaper speed of 10,000 rpm is way too slow for small bits.? A 3/8" router bit at 10k rpm is hitting less than 1,000 SFM.?
As you'll remember from high school physics or just know from intuitive experience, the energy (force, momentum) of a rotating mass is proportional to the speed and amount of mass (weight), but it's not a linear proportionality.? Driving your car through a given curve at 60 mph has a lot more than twice the energy of going 30 mph.
A 4" shaper bit that weighs several pounds moving at 7,500 rpm has ~20 times the energy of a 1/2" bit running at 30,000 rpm.? ?These are forces that are basically impossible to "manhandle".
An accident with a 1/2" bit in a router table might take the tip of your finger off.? A shaper accident might take several fingers or your entire hand in an instant.
Basically, a shaper should be used with a power feeder.
The only reason to buy a combo is being very tight on space.? If you have enough space, buy a saw and J/P and no shaper.? ?Someday if you find you really have a use for a shaper, buy one then.
Mark
? ??
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
In cutting any material effectively, a critical aspect is the speed the cutting edge, usually referenced in SFM -- Surface Feet per Minute.? Very roughly speaking, woodworking requires around 5,000 SFM.? For rotating tools, this means proper RPM is related to tool diameter.? A 3/4" router bit needs ~25,000 rpm; a 4" shaper bit needs ~5,000 rpm.? ?So even high shaper speed of 10,000 rpm is way too slow for small bits.? A 3/8" router bit at 10k rpm is hitting less than 1,000 SFM.?
As you'll remember from high school physics or just know from intuitive experience, the energy (force, momentum) of a rotating mass is proportional to the speed and amount of mass (weight), but it's not a linear proportionality.? Driving your car through a given curve at 60 mph has a lot more than twice the energy of going 30 mph.
A 4" shaper bit that weighs several pounds moving at 7,500 rpm has ~20 times the energy of a 1/2" bit running at 30,000 rpm.? ?These are forces that are basically impossible to "manhandle".
An accident with a 1/2" bit in a router table might take the tip of your finger off.? A shaper accident might take several fingers or your entire hand in an instant.
Basically, a shaper should be used with a power feeder.
The only reason to buy a combo is being very tight on space.? If you have enough space, buy a saw and J/P and no shaper.? ?Someday if you find you really have a use for a shaper, buy one then.
Mark
? ??
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Others here are far more experienced to offer advice, but the higher mass of the cutter combined with the larger clearances between the cutter and fence create a scenario where the material can get sucked in. Basically your entire body is at risk of injury or death depending upon how the material reacts. Power feeders, Aigner fences, pressure modules, pneumatic clamps, and most importantly, knowledge can alleviate many of the risks. But John is right, they are dangerous and costly machines. Tooling and safety devices typically exceed the cost of a stand alone shaper. The B3 is a low cost option if you decide to go down that road in the future.?
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Thanks Edward, I will watch the videos during lunch!
Just out of curiosity, what is so dangerous about the shaper, compared to the router table? Obviously they are bigger but both can equally mess up your hands.
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Thanks Edward, I will watch the videos during lunch!
Just out of curiosity, what is so dangerous about the shaper, compared to the router table? Obviously they are bigger but both can equally mess up your hands.
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:19 AM, John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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They are just a big router table, they are in the wrong hands one of the most expensive and dangerous machines you can own. Just a word of warning. If you have a lot of money and like to spend it on woodworking tools you can easy spend many thousands of dollars on tooling, safety and accessories. A good router table honestly will satisfy most hobby guys and the shaper can always be added later as a stand alone.
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
They are just a big router table, they are in the wrong hands one of the most expensive and dangerous machines you can own. Just a word of warning. If you have a lot of money and like to spend it on woodworking tools you can easy spend many thousands of dollars on tooling, safety and accessories. A good router table honestly will satisfy most hobby guys and the shaper can always be added later as a stand alone.
?
Thanks,
Up until now, I never specifically research shapers and thought they were just bigger router table. Now you make me wonder if I _really_ need a shaper, which in turn would mean that maybe I should consider a K3 + A3 but I am not sure how much I would be saving compared to the C3.?
That being said, I keep reading about people saying how useful a shaper is, but I have yet to see of what they are talking about (looking on youtube) other than making moldings or things that could be done with a standard router.?
I am a hobbyist, dreaming of starting my own line of small home furnitures (side/coffee tables) and I am pretty sure I will be making new kitchen cabinets once we move to a new house so I guess I will end up with all Hammer accessories in 10 years, I just need to figure out which one to get first.
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
I¡¯m at work so it¡¯s hard to write a complete response, but the short version is you may want to consider a B3 and an A series combo JP if budget and space allow. The shaper is invaluable for furniture and cabinetry construction. Rangate has some good shaper videos on YouTube to give you an idea of what¡¯s possible. Their new website also has a video for each of the rental cutters. Well produced and informative.?
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?
Thanks,
Up until now, I never specifically research shapers and thought they were just bigger router table. Now you make me wonder if I _really_ need a shaper, which in turn would mean that maybe I should consider a K3 + A3 but I am not sure how much I would be saving compared to the C3.?
That being said, I keep reading about people saying how useful a shaper is, but I have yet to see of what they are talking about (looking on youtube) other than making moldings or things that could be done with a standard router.?
I am a hobbyist, dreaming of starting my own line of small home furnitures (side/coffee tables) and I am pretty sure I will be making new kitchen cabinets once we move to a new house so I guess I will end up with all Hammer accessories in 10 years, I just need to figure out which one to get first.
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Thanks,
Up until now, I never specifically research shapers and thought they were just bigger router table. Now you make me wonder if I _really_ need a shaper, which in turn would mean that maybe I should consider a K3 + A3 but I am not sure how much I would be saving compared to the C3.?
That being said, I keep reading about people saying how useful a shaper is, but I have yet to see of what they are talking about (looking on youtube) other than making moldings or things that could be done with a standard router.?
I am a hobbyist, dreaming of starting my own line of small home furnitures (side/coffee tables) and I am pretty sure I will be making new kitchen cabinets once we move to a new house so I guess I will end up with all Hammer accessories in 10 years, I just need to figure out which one to get first.
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 9:22 PM, murkyd@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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I have a C3.
By thickness gauge, you mean dial handle?? I don't have one, but seems useful.?
I never felt need to planer extension table.? Extending the table a short amount (400mm) doesn't seem like it would add much value to me.? ?When I plane long things, I sometimes use a roller stand, but I set it up several feet from the table, to avoid pressure of a board hanging way out.? ?But even that I rarely do.? Usually I just grab the board on the outfeed side, whether it's 3' or 20' long.
Note that shaper is too slow for most router bits.? You can use it in a pinch for largish cutting diameter 1/2" bits, but a shaper is not a router table replacement.
More generally, "must have accessories" is kind of specific to your use.? Eg, what's good for sheet goods is very different than what's good for a chair maker.
Mark
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I think FB groups should be out of the equation because: - searching is near useless - impossible to reference older post easily and in a clean way - topics are ordered in a near random way - impossible to correctly format comments/posts - have to click to see all the content - impossible to ever get the data out of FB
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I too am grateful for all the time and effort spent by John and Brian, and all the contributors for the wealth of knowledge shared here. That said, I'd happily move over to a better platform and kick in a little to cover hosting costs. I've been active here a dozen years maybe, and I haven't posted a single photo or video. I'm pretty computer literate too, and take woodworking related photos daily. Not being a Yahoo user just makes it too cumbersome.
I mentioned that I'm part of numerous private groups on facebook, none woodworking related-I do have hobbies. Sharing media there is effortless, even from my phone where it is captured in the first place. It does not address the archived information issue, but as far as I'm concerned that's already gone because I can't access it easily as a non Yahoo user. A shared Dropbox or Google drive could cover that and the Flickr media.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I too am grateful for all the time and effort spent by John and Brian, and all the contributors for the wealth of knowledge shared here. That said, I'd happily move over to a better platform and kick in a little to cover hosting costs. I've been active here a dozen years maybe, and I haven't posted a single photo or video. I'm pretty computer literate too, and take woodworking related photos daily. Not being a Yahoo user just makes it too cumbersome.
I mentioned that I'm part of numerous private groups on facebook, none woodworking related-I do have hobbies. Sharing media there is effortless, even from my phone where it is captured in the first place. It does not address the archived information issue, but as far as I'm concerned that's already gone because I can't access it easily as a non Yahoo user. A shared Dropbox or Google drive could cover that and the Flickr media.
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
If it ain't broke don't fix it.?
I've been in other groups who 'upgraded' The net result was two groups, the hind of the old group and the new one. Both declined over time.
Paul Mc Cann.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I am on of the many people on the forum who post rarely but often click on
David¡¯s Flickr posts. I tend to think David¡¯s assessment of ¡°active¡± community
seems to be several hundred although the number who post at least once a month
is far fewer.
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The main reason I like the group is it¡¯s email feature and the high calibre
of the people who answer questions.
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The cons are that posts cannot contain attachments (although you can embed
photos with some difficulty).
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If FOG moves to a platform that requires logging into a web site to read
posts, I would be hesitant to move. That¡¯s just my personal view.
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Regards,
Martin
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From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2'
david@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 1:50 PM
To: rcorselli@...
[felder-woodworking]
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] groups.io for Felder
Woodworking?
?
?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the
number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of
new photos on my Flickr account.?? Pretty consistently, when I post a
link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of
a week.?? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several
weeks.?? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few
hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation.?? Yes, it¡¯s
possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I
doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000..???
?
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
?
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857
2002???? 4869
2003???? 6216
2004???? 6715
2005???? 6905
2006???? 5351
2007???? 6134
2008???? 5352
2009???? 6144
2010???? 4704
2011???? 5442
2012???? 4949??? <--
Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo
Groups
2013???? 3910
2014???? 3495
2015???? 3321
2016???? 3648
2017???? 3868
?
David Best
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Yeah I have same problem.
Everytime I want to see something or post a thread of my own I can¡¯t fir the life of me remember my password or username.?
I]Brian has been nice enough to walk me through resetting or give me my original info or whatever. At a certain point though you feel bad bothering someone for the same thing over and over again.?
Dont?know why I dint just write the info down.?
The only time I participate is a instance like this or I thread jack to ask my Own question..?
On Tuesday, January 9, 2018, Stephen ayesurely@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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David,
Interesting numbers with regards to clicking on the links. I tend to click on Flickr links but not the links to the files section on yahoo as I have to unearth my password from dear knows where just to sign in.
Stephen
On 10 Jan 2018 02:50, "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]" < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of new photos on my Flickr account. ? Pretty consistently, when I post a link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of a week. ? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several weeks. ? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation. ? Yes, it¡¯s possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000... ??
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857 2002???? 4869 2003???? 6216 2004???? 6715 2005???? 6905 2006???? 5351 2007???? 6134 2008???? 5352 2009???? 6144 2010???? 4704 2011???? 5442 2012???? 4949 ? ?<-- Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo Groups 2013???? 3910
2014???? 3495 2015???? 3321 2016???? 3648 2017???? 3868
David Best
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David P. Best
Jason Holtz
Martin Imber