Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
If it ain't broke don't fix it.?
I've been in other groups who 'upgraded' The net result was two groups, the hind of the old group and the new one. Both declined over time.
Paul Mc Cann.
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I am on of the many people on the forum who post rarely but often click on
David¡¯s Flickr posts. I tend to think David¡¯s assessment of ¡°active¡± community
seems to be several hundred although the number who post at least once a month
is far fewer.
?
The main reason I like the group is it¡¯s email feature and the high calibre
of the people who answer questions.
?
The cons are that posts cannot contain attachments (although you can embed
photos with some difficulty).
?
If FOG moves to a platform that requires logging into a web site to read
posts, I would be hesitant to move. That¡¯s just my personal view.
?
Regards,
Martin
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 'david@bestservices IMAP 2'
david@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 1:50 PM
To: rcorselli@...
[felder-woodworking]
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] groups.io for Felder
Woodworking?
?
?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the
number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of
new photos on my Flickr account.?? Pretty consistently, when I post a
link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of
a week.?? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several
weeks.?? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few
hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation.?? Yes, it¡¯s
possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I
doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000..???
?
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
?
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857
2002???? 4869
2003???? 6216
2004???? 6715
2005???? 6905
2006???? 5351
2007???? 6134
2008???? 5352
2009???? 6144
2010???? 4704
2011???? 5442
2012???? 4949??? <--
Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo
Groups
2013???? 3910
2014???? 3495
2015???? 3321
2016???? 3648
2017???? 3868
?
David Best
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Yeah I have same problem.
Everytime I want to see something or post a thread of my own I can¡¯t fir the life of me remember my password or username.?
I]Brian has been nice enough to walk me through resetting or give me my original info or whatever. At a certain point though you feel bad bothering someone for the same thing over and over again.?
Dont?know why I dint just write the info down.?
The only time I participate is a instance like this or I thread jack to ask my Own question..?
On Tuesday, January 9, 2018, Stephen ayesurely@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
David,
Interesting numbers with regards to clicking on the links. I tend to click on Flickr links but not the links to the files section on yahoo as I have to unearth my password from dear knows where just to sign in.
Stephen
On 10 Jan 2018 02:50, "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking]" < felder-woodworking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of new photos on my Flickr account. ? Pretty consistently, when I post a link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of a week. ? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several weeks. ? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation. ? Yes, it¡¯s possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000... ??
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857 2002???? 4869 2003???? 6216 2004???? 6715 2005???? 6905 2006???? 5351 2007???? 6134 2008???? 5352 2009???? 6144 2010???? 4704 2011???? 5442 2012???? 4949 ? ?<-- Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo Groups 2013???? 3910
2014???? 3495 2015???? 3321 2016???? 3648 2017???? 3868
David Best
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
David, you've made some excellent points.
The forum owner, moderators, and major contributors must 100% agree on the desire for a more modern platform. Given the dedication they have shown for nearly 2 decades, it's important to understand the future success of this forum is dependent upon their buy in.?Until then, the implementation details are secondary.?
Mark, I agree, self hosting is a poor idea long term. But it's not the worst way to kick off/trial a new platform until the critical mass builds to fund more robust options.? FYI, I'm also an IT guy, covering software development, hardware, networking, and disaster planning for a fixed income shop running several hundred billion in assets. We run everything in house, and if it can go wrong, I've seen it in the last 18 years. $10 a month for hosting is an incredible value given the technology behind it.?Today, thankfully, it seems as if there are a few people willing to chip in, so hopefully that is a non issue.
Either way, I'll be sticking around. The content is too good to miss, especially when I have so much to learn.
On Tuesday, January 9, 2018, 6:17:35 PM EST, 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] wrote:
?
Forums like this reflect the values of the leadership/control structure of the group, not necessarily the values of the majority of the users involved.? ? The topic of ¡°platform¡± comes up here almost annually - Yahoo Groups has serious limitations & frustrations, but it has two things many like:? it¡¯s free and places no demands on the casual user. ? Excuses abound when the ¡°platform¡± suggestions come up - about moving files, hassle, time, money, etc. ?
In contrast to FOG, I also participate in and support (financially and otherwise) a handful of other forums/user groups, which operate with a completely different philosophy about user interaction & involvement, distribute the leadership more widely, and are funded with annual voluntary contributions to support a superior platform. ? I find those groups more effective and satisfying overall - they support email, are fully and effectively searchable, embrace many forms of media imbedded and archived (pdf, video, photos, etc.), allow cross-thread linking and referencing, facilitate polls and voting, and are mobile-device friendly, etc. ?And because so many of the users chip in a small annual contribution and help with administration, they have more skin in the game, and participation rates (quality and quantity) are high.
I too appreciate all that John and Brian do to keep this group functioning and fending off the spam and junk. ? I also observe that participation by FOG members appears to be in decline, as evidenced by the number of postings on an annual or monthly basis. ? When I joined this group in 2001, it was thriving with tons of posts and lots of user contributions. ?Of course, back then the equipment being produced was far more temperamental and challenging to get and keep aligned and functioning in top form. ? Others have expressed the view to me privately that they would participate more on FOG if the platform supported media (photos, video, etc.) inclusion and the archive had search facilities that actually work. ? A few of my closest friends here on FOG have formed our own sub-group using the mobile device messaging platform and exchange dozens of messages daily with photos and videos of real-world problems, ideas and assistance.
I know many here are hankering for a better platform, and some are willing to contribute cash to that end, and others still are prepared to give leadership. ? But such a shift would require the enthusiastic support of John and Brian, or the formation of an altogether new group (which has been tried and failed). ??
Although the ¡°platform" topic remains a hearty perennial here, and always pulls previously unheard from users out of the woodwork, the political will to migrate to a better platform remains the primary deterrent. ? ?
So Dr. Renzetti, since you are the sole owner of the group, I¡¯ll put it to you: ? would you embrace moving to a new platform, and if so, under what conditions?
David Best
Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
David,
Interesting numbers with regards to clicking on the links. I tend to click on Flickr links but not the links to the files section on yahoo as I have to unearth my password from dear knows where just to sign in.
Stephen
?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of new photos on my Flickr account. ? Pretty consistently, when I post a link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of a week. ? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several weeks. ? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation. ? Yes, it¡¯s possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000.. ??
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857 2002???? 4869 2003???? 6216 2004???? 6715 2005???? 6905 2006???? 5351 2007???? 6134 2008???? 5352 2009???? 6144 2010???? 4704 2011???? 5442 2012???? 4949 ? ?<-- Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo Groups 2013???? 3910
2014???? 3495 2015???? 3321 2016???? 3648 2017???? 3868
David Best
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Just wanted to chime in that I would be happy to contribute an annual fee and kudos to Brian, John and others who make this group what it is - an invaluable resource.
Imran
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I have come to judge the silent majority population here somewhat by the number of times someone clicks through on a link I post on FOG to an album of new photos on my Flickr account. ? Pretty consistently, when I post a link to such an album on FOG, about 150 people go to the link over the course of a week. ? Rarely has it exceeded 180 even after several weeks. ? So the ¡°active community¡± seems to me to be more like a few hundred, with all but about 30 in Read-Only participation. ? Yes, it¡¯s possible 4000 others read the post but don¡¯t click through to the link, but I doubt it¡¯s even close to 1000. ??
As for FOG postings, here are the actual numbers:
Year???? Postings
2001???? 5857 2002???? 4869 2003???? 6216 2004???? 6715 2005???? 6905 2006???? 5351 2007???? 6134 2008???? 5352 2009???? 6144 2010???? 4704 2011???? 5442 2012???? 4949 ? ?<-- Marissa Mayer becomes CEO of Yahoo and curtails further investment in Yahoo Groups 2013???? 3910 2014???? 3495 2015???? 3321 2016???? 3648 2017???? 3868
David Best
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
What if an email address were set up , for example fog2018@ ? and a notice was posted on the forum everyday for a month asking users to indicate that they were still active by sending a quick email to the address as above. ?
At the end of the month we would have a clearer idea of how many of the 4000+ members read or otherwise participate at least once a month? (though not an exact number)? and maybe that would help inform decisions around potential providers and if any money would need to be raised and how many ways that would be split .
I, like many others find this forum to be invaluable. I'm not a member of any other forum (although I can of course read some posts guided by a google search. )
The depth and breadth of knowledge alongside many individuals taking the time and effort they commit to help others means that this is for me , not just a 'Felder' forum but a very broad woodworking forum with a Felder speciality.
Regards
Stephen
?
Just FYI, we have 4255 members, granted there is probably some inactive and duplicate numbers in there. We run something like 300-600 posts per month. We do have a lot of folks that are computer challenged¡ not sure how they got on the group to begin with, but they email me when they aren¡¯t getting email delivery and they don¡¯t know how or can¡¯t figure out how to read the posts on the web. So more than a few challenges¡ it has to be cheap, it has to be easy, some folks prefer going to a website to participate, some prefer email (in the form of instant and separate emails, and some in digest form).
I don¡¯t know if there is going to be a one size fits all solution to all of this.?
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration..
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Re: planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
I have a C3.
By thickness gauge, you mean dial handle?? I don't have one, but seems useful.?
I never felt need to planer extension table.? Extending the table a short amount (400mm) doesn't seem like it would add much value to me.? ?When I plane long things, I sometimes use a roller stand, but I set it up several feet from the table, to avoid pressure of a board hanging way out.? ?But even that I rarely do.? Usually I just grab the board on the outfeed side, whether it's 3' or 20' long.
Note that shaper is too slow for most router bits.? You can use it in a pinch for largish cutting diameter 1/2" bits, but a shaper is not a router table replacement.
More generally, "must have accessories" is kind of specific to your use.? Eg, what's good for sheet goods is very different than what's good for a chair maker.
Mark
|
planing to buy a c3-31, which accessories to get?
Hi all,
I did my homework and decided to pick a C3 Comfort (with silent power).?
So my question: which are the must have accessories for a starter kit?
I was going for: - gauge for the thickness planer - maybe a 400mm extension table for the jointer/planer? - for the shaper I will take the 1/2in 'adapter' so I can use all my existing bits
Thx!
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
I have nothing new to add, but I would like to talk those who keep this going, administrative, leadership and technical know how.
Mark Foster
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Does Yahoo give admin any tools for deeper insight, like how many people post or visit (read)?
4255 is quite a few members.? It "feels" to me like regulars is measured in the dozens.??
Mark
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Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hi all, I am one of these 4255 members who just read and use information other people shared. I agreed that yahoo group format is old and difficult to use.? I can¡¯t help with migration to the new format, don¡¯t have much computer experience, but I will be glad to contribute financially as yearly fees. Like Sawmillcreek forum, which I think most busiest woodworking forum. Thank you. Ed
?
Just FYI, we have 4255 members, granted there is probably some inactive and duplicate numbers in there. We run something like 300-600 posts per month. We do have a lot of folks that are computer challenged¡ not sure how they got on the group to begin with, but they email me when they aren¡¯t getting email delivery and they don¡¯t know how or can¡¯t figure out how to read the posts on the web. So more than a few challenges¡ it has to be cheap, it has to be easy, some folks prefer going to a website to participate, some prefer email (in the form of instant and separate emails, and some in digest form).
I don¡¯t know if there is going to be a one size fits all solution to all of this.?
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration..
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Just FYI, we have 4255 members, granted there is probably some inactive and duplicate numbers in there. We run something like 300-600 posts per month. We do have a lot of folks that are computer challenged¡ not sure how they got on the group to begin with, but they email me when they aren¡¯t getting email delivery and they don¡¯t know how or can¡¯t figure out how to read the posts on the web. So more than a few challenges¡ it has to be cheap, it has to be easy, some folks prefer going to a website to participate, some prefer email (in the form of instant and separate emails, and some in digest form).
I don¡¯t know if there is going to be a one size fits all solution to all of this.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration.
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Hi all,
just read all the posts I missed since lunch and having to deal with Gmail threading combined with the Yahoo group footer made this very confusing.?
To echo what was said above, a solution hosted on a "real" host would be preferable. Digital Ocean 10$/month instance would be more than enough for the current traffic and using a free tier email service may be enough (I dont know, depends on how many members subscribe to email digests).
There are other options to Discourse (it just happened to be my favourite) and I think that more options should be explored, specifically free ones to easy IT administration.
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:10 PM, murkyd@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
David made excellent points.? ?
When this issue comes up, people do always (correctly) note that the hassle of moving platform is substantial, and often also note that the current system "works OK".? ?
But less discussed is what David raised, namely that a modern platform might energize the forum from the rather low bar of "works OK" (and that is arguably only even true by decade old standards) to something quite a bit more useful and engaging.
I'll add these thoughts:
- hosting in someone's house on Comcast seems nuts to me in the year 2018.? (not that makes me the foremost expert, but fwiw worth my day job is managing an IT organization and I know something about tech.)
- I myself couldn't/shouldn't offer "leadership" David refers to, since I'm not a serious enough Felder user, but I value the forum a lot.?
- I would happily contribute money to a new forum effort, both one-time to help transition and some annuity.
Mark?
?
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
David made excellent points.? ?
When this issue comes up, people do always (correctly) note that the hassle of moving platform is substantial, and often also note that the current system "works OK".? ?
But less discussed is what David raised, namely that a modern platform might energize the forum from the rather low bar of "works OK" (and that is arguably only even true by decade old standards) to something quite a bit more useful and engaging.
I'll add these thoughts:
- hosting in someone's house on Comcast seems nuts to me in the year 2018.? (not that makes me the foremost expert, but fwiw worth my day job is managing an IT organization and I know something about tech.)
- I myself couldn't/shouldn't offer "leadership" David refers to, since I'm not a serious enough Felder user, but I value the forum a lot.?
- I would happily contribute money to a new forum effort, both one-time to help transition and some annuity.
Mark?
?
|
Re: WTB: Hammer K3 Winner
Crap, too bad you werent in Long Island, NY i'd prolly get rid of it.
I bought my 79"er last year and lately Im realizing I will have no
room for it in my garage when the ShopSabre Pro404 cnc arrives
this summer. Somethings got to give.
Also contemplating an 8'x20' cargo trailer to house it and a few tools
next to the garage. One of those Haulmark box type.
Undecided for now but in excellent condition for light weekend use.
Sorry to be of no help here, just had to vent.
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
Forums like this reflect the values of the leadership/control structure of the group, not necessarily the values of the majority of the users involved.? ? The topic of ¡°platform¡± comes up here almost annually - Yahoo Groups has serious limitations & frustrations, but it has two things many like:? it¡¯s free and places no demands on the casual user. ? Excuses abound when the ¡°platform¡± suggestions come up - about moving files, hassle, time, money, etc. ?
In contrast to FOG, I also participate in and support (financially and otherwise) a handful of other forums/user groups, which operate with a completely different philosophy about user interaction & involvement, distribute the leadership more widely, and are funded with annual voluntary contributions to support a superior platform. ? I find those groups more effective and satisfying overall - they support email, are fully and effectively searchable, embrace many forms of media imbedded and archived (pdf, video, photos, etc.), allow cross-thread linking and referencing, facilitate polls and voting, and are mobile-device friendly, etc. ?And because so many of the users chip in a small annual contribution and help with administration, they have more skin in the game, and participation rates (quality and quantity) are high.
I too appreciate all that John and Brian do to keep this group functioning and fending off the spam and junk. ? I also observe that participation by FOG members appears to be in decline, as evidenced by the number of postings on an annual or monthly basis. ? When I joined this group in 2001, it was thriving with tons of posts and lots of user contributions. ?Of course, back then the equipment being produced was far more temperamental and challenging to get and keep aligned and functioning in top form. ? Others have expressed the view to me privately that they would participate more on FOG if the platform supported media (photos, video, etc.) inclusion and the archive had search facilities that actually work. ? A few of my closest friends here on FOG have formed our own sub-group using the mobile device messaging platform and exchange dozens of messages daily with photos and videos of real-world problems, ideas and assistance.
I know many here are hankering for a better platform, and some are willing to contribute cash to that end, and others still are prepared to give leadership. ? But such a shift would require the enthusiastic support of John and Brian, or the formation of an altogether new group (which has been tried and failed). ??
Although the ¡°platform" topic remains a hearty perennial here, and always pulls previously unheard from users out of the woodwork, the political will to migrate to a better platform remains the primary deterrent. ? ?
So Dr. Renzetti, since you are the sole owner of the group, I¡¯ll put it to you: ? would you embrace moving to a new platform, and if so, under what conditions?
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Okay, so, i was hoping someone else might volunteer, but i guess i'll do it :)
Yahoo groups has a JSON API that can be used to retrieve all the data (messages, files, photos, etc). It works fine on felder-woodworking. If folks want to move to a place that has a sane import API, i'm happy to do the export and import.
If folks want to move to a place that has no import API, i'm also happy to provide a database that has all the data from the group, and someone else (not me!) can use it to build some web or mobile app or something out of the old data so it can be searched/used.
This is obviously more annoying (or more awesome, depending on how you use the group :P), but there you go.
In case anyone is worried about whether i can get it done, i've moved 3 *very* large? open source projects between different messaging software, bug software, and version control software before, so i've done this kind of thing before.
--Dan
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
We've solved this in some of the open source projects by using things like mailgun for email sending. We'd be well within the free tier (by a factor of 20)
?
One of the big hang ups on self hosting is ability to send emails. Even with a Comcast business account, the IP range would likely be on a public blacklist for spam. Without email notifications, forum response would slow to a crawl if members had to visit the site for updates. Not sure what a feasible workaround would be other than paying for hosting (likely not an option).?
?
Whoops, hit send too early.
3. The existing import/export scripts look like they need some work, and don't handle files/photos/etc at all, but that would not be difficult to add.
|
Re: groups.io for Felder Woodworking?
One of the big hang ups on self hosting is ability to send emails. Even with a Comcast business account, the IP range would likely be on a public blacklist for spam. Without email notifications, forum response would slow to a crawl if members had to visit the site for updates. Not sure what a feasible workaround would be other than paying for hosting (likely not an option).?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 9, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Daniel Berlin dan@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
Whoops, hit send too early.
3. The existing import/export scripts look like they need some work, and don't handle files/photos/etc at all, but that would not be difficult to add.
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Martin Imber
imran
David P. Best
Mark Foster